Newbie: What is correct sequence to reinstall balance wheel?
ABC
except the collet of the balance wheel ( hairspring still attached to
the wheel , though separated from the balance cock and without the
stud on the outside end)
Now I don't know how to correctly put it back. I have tried 3
options:-
1. a)RE-attach the wheel on the balance cock. Lead the hairspring thru
the gap between and index pin and boot
b) then attach the end of the hairspring to the stud and fix the
stud to the balance cock.
c)put the whole balance cock with wheel dangling into the
watch body and hope that the lower pivot of the wheel will find
its way to the lower jewel hole----------It did not, and I
almost twisted the spring.
2. a)Put just the balance wheel with the hairspring attached( at the
collet) into the the watch body.--- I can easily find the
lower jewel hole because the balance cock is not there.
b) Then put the balance cock on top --- I can do this easily. But
then I cannot lead the outside end of the hairspring thru the
index pin and boot, not to mention then leading it thru the
hole in the stud, since everything is now on the underside
( this is a flat spring, not overcoil). And of course I
cannot insert the brass pin into the stud hole.
3. a) Attach the outside of the spring to the stud and insert the
brass pin , hoping that I got the right length of the
spring.
b) put the wheel with spring and the stud dangling into the
body and easily insert the lower pivot into its jewel
hole---etc and put back the balance cock on top.
c) Now how do I get the spring through the index pin and
boot(which are now on the underside)??
If I could, I can then easily attach the stud to then
balance and tighten the screw.
Help!!!
K.M.
Please do not reply by email
Reply yo NG
anthony gregory
With the balance bridge lying upside down on the work bench attach the
balance wheel wheel (with hairspring and roller attached ) to the balance
bridge at the hairspring stud - align hairspring thru the regulator pins.
Next , with tweezers ,hold the balance bridge -(hold at bridge screw end)
above the movement with balance wheel hanging from balance cock and
slowly lower the balance wheel feeding it under the center wheel with the
roller pin into the correct side of the pallet fork and with the lower
balance pivot into the lower hole jewel. then gently lower balance cock
onto correct position on movement plate.
At this point upper balance wheel pivot may not be centered into theupper
hole jewel lift the balance bridge at the jewel end and align the
balance wheel so that balance bridge and upper jewels and pivot are
correct before seating the bridge and tightening balance bridge screw.
Double check to make sure balance wheel rotates freely -hairspring is
flat and in between regulator pins - and roller jewel engages center of
balance fork -before final tightening of screws.
If you are lucky the the watch will start running as you are doing this.
It is not as difficult as it sounds if you work slowly and gently with
absolutely no force against any of the parts.and if you can see all the
engaaging parts as you are assembling them.
The hairspring will support the balance assembly ,the only danger is the
possibility that it slips out from between the regulator pins, The roller
may not engage the pallet assembly correctly at first try- you must lift
the bridge and repeat the process from there.
You don't need a lot of brain power but you do not a lot of patience
The Baron
procedure you use but both #1 or #2 should work.
Let's review what may have not been necessary and then see how best to
reinstall.
There was no reason to remove the stud and pin from the end of the spring
unless the stud was a permanent part of the cock or you were replacing the
spring. Put it back as best you remember. There was no reason to remove
the spring from the balance wheel unless you were going to repair the
balance staff.
Often a small scratch mark was previously made on the balance to show
where to install the open end of the collet. I often make a sketch to show
this relationship. A good visual relationship will be seen if you place the
balance wheel in the movement and with the spring mounted on the cock
observe where the collet should mount to the wheel with relationship to the
balance arms. Remove the spring from the cock and install it on the balance
wheel. Then reinstall it on the cock with the spring between the pins.
Once the complete assembly is installed on the cock the spring ''will
not'' leave the pins.
Reinstall the cock, spring and wheel as a complete assembly. This is easier
than you might think. If the cock is rotated 30 to 90 degs. out of
alignment, then lowered into position the roller jewel will often find the
slot in the fork on the first or second try. Continue to rotate the cock
into alignment and lower into position. Install the cock screw about one
thread so that it will not fall out.
At this time the roller and fork should be aligned but not necessarily will
the pivots be in the jewels ( the pivot may be in the lower jewel).
Encourage the pivots with your tweezers, working the balance wheel, to go
into both upper and lower jewels. You only have the weight of the cock to
contend with as the screw is not tightened, raise the cock with your
tweezers as necessary.
This one step method is taught in most watch schools and courses. Attaching
the stud to the cock after installing in the movement is usually done by
hobbyist who are afraid they will distort the spring somehow, or break a
pivot if they use the complete unit assembly method.
If the watch is not in beat you will have to remove the assembly, rotate the
collet as required, then reassemble. The regulator on the cock is designed
to take care of minor rate irregularities, within reason, with regards the
amount of spring projecting beyond the end of the stud. The regulator does
not have to be exactly in the center of the scale.
All watch repair should be practiced on inexpensive or junk movements, not
on railroad watches or high end units like Rolex.
ABC <a...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:ousj4tg7hcf1a1obj...@4ax.com...
ABC
On Wed, 27 Dec 2000 16:07:01 GMT, "The Baron" <theb...@flash.net>
wrotd:
>Often a small scratch mark was previously made on the balance to show
>where to install the open end of the collet. I often make a sketch to show
>this relationship. A good visual relationship will be seen if you place the
>balance wheel in the movement and with the spring mounted on the cock
>observe where the collet should mount to the wheel with relationship to the
>balance arms. Remove the spring from the cock and install it on the balance
>wheel. Then reinstall it on the cock with the spring between the pins.
>Once the complete assembly is installed on the cock the spring ''will
>not'' leave the pins.
Here "the pins" as mentioned above are the 'stud pin' ,or 'index pin
and boot'??
>
>Reinstall the cock, spring and wheel as a complete assembly.
Here do you put the assembly in with the wheel dangling, or do you
hold the whole thing between the tweezer.?
This is easier
>than you might think. If the cock is rotated 30 to 90 degs. out of
>alignment, then lowered into position the roller jewel will often find the
>slot in the fork on the first or second try. Continue to rotate the cock
>into alignment and lower into position. Install the cock screw about one
>thread so that it will not fall out.
>
>This one step method is taught in most watch schools and courses. Attaching
>>If the watch is not in beat you will have to remove the assembly, rotate the
>collet as required, then reassemble. The regulator on the cock is designed
>to take care of minor rate irregularities, within reason, with regards the
>amount of spring projecting beyond the end of the stud. The regulator does
>not have to be exactly in the center of the scale.
This is what I fear.But if the watch is not in beat can I not adjust
the amount of spring outside the stud.
>
>All watch repair should be practiced on inexpensive or junk movements, not
>on railroad watches or high end units like Rolex.
Yes. Does AS 1187/94 marking on the movement mean anything??
T.K.M. Wong
To Reply by email: Delete 'nospam' from email address
The Baron
origin.
Hold the cock with the tweezers and let the balance wheel dangle.
You can adjust the length of the spring at the stud for beat regulation but
you will change the rate. For example: 18,000 to 17,900. As I said
earlier, put the spring in the stud and pin it based on where you think it
was. Determine what the rate should be 16,400, 18,000, 21,000 etc.(with the
balance in beat) then adjust the length of spring at the stud to obtain
proper rate. Then check to see if it is in beat. Then check the rate,
then the beat, then adjust, the rate..........Your goal here is to get the
watch back to where it was , proper rate and in beat and since we do not
know exactly where the collet and spring end were, it will require some
adjusting.
AS 1187/94 appears to be a Swiss number, they appear in my old Bestfit
catalog under A.Schild. I have not repaired a Swiss watch in 30 years,
usually just American pocket watches when I have no clocks to mend.
ABC <a...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:ug3l4tk0t1dqbjj18...@4ax.com...
> Thanks. Please explain:
>
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2000 16:07:01 GMT, "The Baron" <theb...@flash.net>
> wrotd:
>
Then reinstall it on the cock with the spring between the pins.
> >Once the complete assembly is installed on the cock the spring ''will
> >not'' leave the pins.
*** Here "the pins" as mentioned above are the 'stud pin' ,or 'index pin
> and boot'??
>
> >
> >Reinstall the cock, spring and wheel as a complete assembly.
*** Here do you put the assembly in with the wheel dangling, or do you
> hold the whole thing between the tweezer.?
>
> This is easier
> >than you might think. If the cock is rotated 30 to 90 degs. out of
> >alignment, then lowered into position the roller jewel will often find
the
> >slot in the fork on the first or second try. Continue to rotate the cock
> >into alignment and lower into position. Install the cock screw about one
> >thread so that it will not fall out.
> >
> >This one step method is taught in most watch schools and courses.
Attaching
> >>If the watch is not in beat you will have to remove the assembly, rotate
the
> >collet as required, then reassemble. The regulator on the cock is
designed
> >to take care of minor rate irregularities, within reason, with regards
the
> >amount of spring projecting beyond the end of the stud. The regulator
does
> >not have to be exactly in the center of the scale.
>
*** This is what I fear.But if the watch is not in beat can I not adjust
> the amount of spring outside the stud.
> >
> >All watch repair should be practiced on inexpensive or junk movements,
not
> >on railroad watches or high end units like Rolex.
*** Yes. Does AS 1187/94 marking on the movement mean anything??
Darryl Bryant
>
> Thanks. Please explain:
>
> >Reinstall the cock, spring and wheel as a complete assembly.
> Here do you put the assembly in with the wheel dangling, or do you
> hold the whole thing between the tweezer.?
> This is what I fear.But if the watch is not in beat can I not adjust
> the amount of spring outside the stud.
> >
> >All watch repair should be practiced on inexpensive or junk movements, not
> >on railroad watches or high end units like Rolex.
> Yes. Does AS 1187/94 marking on the movement mean anything??
>
AS 1187/94, a fairly common model, good solid movement, I have several in
the junk/spareparts box, the one in front of me is an incabloc version but
some older movements dont have any shockproof system installed.
in future don't remove the hairspring from the balance cock stud, you have
just created more work for yourself in doing so ok, if you are servicing a
incabloc model, all you needed to do is undo the balance cock screw, lift
the complete balance cock along with balance complete still attached, put
that aside, dismantle the rest of the watch, replace the balance cock with
balance complete back on the now striped bottom plate, and remove the
incabloc jewels to clean separately, clean all the parts, dry well, to
assemble, again remove the balance cock with balance complete attached, the
balance cock with balance is the last thing to go back in, the incabloc
jewels are oiled and set back in and note the upper incabloc endstone jewel
is thicker than the bottom one.
if its a non shockproof model, undo the balance cock screw, lift the
balance cock out with balance complete, place the balance upside down on
the bench, loosen the hairspring stud screw, the index pin you will notice
has a "L" pin and a straight plain pin, the "L" pin has a slot in it, with
a fine screwdriver carefully turn this pin left or right one quarter turn
(1/4), the stud can be pushed out and you have the balance complete with
hairspring and studs ready to clean.
with the problem you have at the moment, just place the balance cock upside
down on the bench, the hairspring stud is in the normal position on the
balance cock and firmly screwed in, put the balance complete upside down on
the balance cock, carefully thread the hairspring through the index pins
and into the stud, if you havent bent the end of the hairspring out of
shape the terminal curve should still be there, place the tapered pin back
into the stud to hold the hairspring in place, now put the balance cock and
balance complete back onto the bottom plate and with the incabloc/endstone
jewels in place, this next step will be better and easier to do if the
movement is completely striped, the only thing in front of you should be
just the bottom plate and balance assembly.
now you can check to see if the hairspring is flat and square and is
centred between the index pins, you can now if the roller jewel is centred
on a line between the lower balance hole jewel and the lower pallet hole
jewel, if not you need to lift the balance out and adjust the collet on the
balance staff left or right until it is.
pretty simple really
dAz
mitc...@earthling.net
what's this got to do w/horology?
I need a date for NYs Eve
ABC
wrote:
>>You can adjust the length of the spring at the stud for beat regulation but
>you will change the rate. For example: 18,000 to 17,900. As I said
>earlier, put the spring in the stud and pin it based on where you think it
>was. Determine what the rate should be 16,400, 18,000, 21,000 etc.(with the
>balance in beat) then adjust the length of spring at the stud to obtain
>proper rate. Then check to see if it is in beat. Then check the rate,
>then the beat, then adjust, the rate..........Your goal here is to get the
>watch back to where it was , proper rate and in beat and since we do not
>know exactly where the collet and spring end were, it will require some
>adjusting.
Where can I learn more about rate?
>AS 1187/94 appears to be a Swiss number, they appear in my old Bestfit
>catalog under A.Schild. I have not repaired a Swiss watch in 30 years,
>usually just American pocket watches when I have no clocks to mend.
Great! I am a Newbie. This swiss watch is my first practice guinea
pig. I actually want to learn this in order to service pocket watches
as I am beginnng to collect them. The first Waltham I bought was a
1902 model " cashier". I sent to the repairman here and got a terrible
job for a big fee.
Is there any book out there specially for pocket watch repairs? Is
there any special tool that I will need ?
Please do not reply by email
Reply yo NG
ABC
wrote:
>in future don't remove the hairspring from the balance cock stud, you have
>just created more work for yourself in doing so ok, if you are servicing a
>incabloc model, all you needed to do is undo the balance cock screw, lift
>the complete balance cock along with balance complete still attached, put
>that aside, dismantle the rest of the watch, replace the balance cock with
>balance complete back on the now striped bottom plate, and remove the
>incabloc jewels to clean separately,
Here, why do you put the cock back in? Can I remove the Incabloc with
the cock on the bench??
> clean all the parts, dry well, to
>assemble, again remove the balance cock with balance complete attached, the
>balance cock with balance is the last thing to go back in, the incabloc
>jewels are oiled and set back in and note the upper incabloc endstone jewel
>is thicker than the bottom one.
Do you move the cock with the balance wheel dangling, or do you grab
the whole assembly between tweezers? Pretty hair- raising to transport
the whole thing with the wheel hanging onto the spring.
>
>>
>with the problem you have at the moment, just place the balance cock upside
>down on the bench, the hairspring stud is in the normal position on the
>balance cock and firmly screwed in, put the balance complete upside down on
>the balance cock, carefully thread the hairspring through the index pins
>and into the stud, if you havent bent the end of the hairspring out of
>shape the terminal curve should still be there, place the tapered pin back
>into the stud to hold the hairspring in place, now put the balance cock and
>balance complete back onto the bottom plate and with the incabloc/endstone
>jewels in place, this next step will be better and easier to do if the
>movement is completely striped, the only thing in front of you should be
>just the bottom plate and balance assembly.
Is this correct to say the the Balance Cock assembly should always be
put in before the rest of the watch??
>
>now you can check to see........ if the roller jewel is centred
>on a line between the lower balance hole jewel and the lower pallet hole
>jewel,
How can I see this with the wheel blocking my views??
> if not you need to lift the balance out and adjust the collet on the
>balance staff left or right until it is.
Is there a tool I can use to just turn the collet without having to
take it out??
BTW, is there a catalog of these swiss watch body numbers?
Many many Thanks
Darryl Bryant
>
> On Thu, 28 Dec 2000 06:19:40 GMT, Darryl Bryant <da...@zip.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> >in future don't remove the hairspring from the balance cock stud, you have
> >just created more work for yourself in doing so ok, if you are servicing a
> >incabloc model, all you needed to do is undo the balance cock screw, lift
> >the complete balance cock along with balance complete still attached, put
> >that aside, dismantle the rest of the watch, replace the balance cock with
> >balance complete back on the now striped bottom plate, and remove the
> >incabloc jewels to clean separately,
>
> Here, why do you put the cock back in? Can I remove the Incabloc with
> the cock on the bench??
OK, by the steps for AS1187/94 inca movt
1. remove hands and dial, disassemble dial train and remove cannon pinion
2. remove incabloc jewels
3. remove balance cock and balance complete
4. let mainspring power off, remove, ratchet wheel, barrel bridge and
barrel
5. remove pallets and disassemble wheel train
6. replace balance cock with balance complete
7. open barrel and remove barrel arbour, if spring looks clean leave it in
barrel, but if it looks dirty then remove mainspring from barrel.
8. place all parts in your cleaning basket and run through your cleaning
machine.
to assemble reverse the order and use a spring winder to put the mainspring
back into the barrel
>
> > clean all the parts, dry well, to
> >assemble, again remove the balance cock with balance complete attached, the
> >balance cock with balance is the last thing to go back in, the incabloc
> >jewels are oiled and set back in and note the upper incabloc endstone jewel
> >is thicker than the bottom one.
>
> Do you move the cock with the balance wheel dangling, or do you grab
> the whole assembly between tweezers? Pretty hair- raising to transport
> the whole thing with the wheel hanging onto the spring.
yes the hairspring is quite strong enough to support the weight of the
balance, just dont snag the balance on the movement when lifting it out.
> >
> >>
> >with the problem you have at the moment, just place the balance cock upside
> >down on the bench, the hairspring stud is in the normal position on the
> >balance cock and firmly screwed in, put the balance complete upside down on
> >the balance cock, carefully thread the hairspring through the index pins
> >and into the stud, if you havent bent the end of the hairspring out of
> >shape the terminal curve should still be there, place the tapered pin back
> >into the stud to hold the hairspring in place, now put the balance cock and
> >balance complete back onto the bottom plate and with the incabloc/endstone
> >jewels in place, this next step will be better and easier to do if the
> >movement is completely striped, the only thing in front of you should be
> >just the bottom plate and balance assembly.
>
> Is this correct to say the the Balance Cock assembly should always be
> put in before the rest of the watch??
no!, the balance is the first thing to come out, the last thing to go back
in, what I am talking about here is because you have removed the hairspring
from the stud, its a lot easier for you to adjust the hairspring and centre
the roller jewel without the wheel train and barrel bridges in place.
> >
> >now you can check to see........ if the roller jewel is centred
> >on a line between the lower balance hole jewel and the lower pallet hole
> >jewel,
> How can I see this with the wheel blocking my views??
which wheel?, you cannot do it without balance in place, if you are talking
about the train wheels, they should not be there for this adjustment.
>
> > if not you need to lift the balance out and adjust the collet on the
> >balance staff left or right until it is.
>
> Is there a tool I can use to just turn the collet without having to
> take it out??
no, there is a tool bergeon make for moving collets to set in beat, but you
still need to lift the balance out, if you try and do the adjustment with
the balance in the movement, you risk putting a kink in the hairspring at
the collet, thats why latter watch movements have adjustable stud holders,
you can set it in beat without having to touch the hairspring collet
>
> BTW, is there a catalog of these swiss watch body numbers?
>
yep, big red book, try your local watch parts supplier