how to keep hardwood floor nails from coming up

[Toller]

I have oak floors. Nail heads come up, I push them down, and they come up
again.
I won't even ask why they come up, but just how do I keep them from doing
it.

Pull them and put in larger nails (thicker, longer?)? Some sort of glue?
Move?

[Charles Schuler]

"Toller" <Tol...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:EVkHh.4261$B25....@news01.roc.ny...

Replace them. Pull a few (you can use a shim to prevent the pliers or
claw-hammer from marring the floor). Take them to a good hardware store.
They can sell you replacements.

[Goedjn]

You have face-nailed oak floors? Odd. Replace the nails that are
coming up with spiral-shank nails. That should keep them from coming
out again.

[Toller]

"Goedjn" <pr...@mail.uri.edu> wrote in message
news:hrsru25pgk9muln3a...@4ax.com...

Yes, face-nailed oak floors. That is odd? I guess haven't looked at
floors much; how is it normally done?

[John Grabowski]

"Toller" <Tol...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:N1nHh.4281$B25....@news01.roc.ny...

Usually they are nailed from the side in the groove so that the nails are
not visible. Use the spiral shank nails as suggested by someone else or get
yourself some nice looking wood screws and drive them in.

[George]

Toller wrote:

>>
> Yes, face-nailed oak floors. That is odd? I guess haven't looked at
> floors much; how is it normally done?
>
>

Blind nailed if tongue and groove material or screwed and plugged if
square edged material. Face nailing is pretty unusual.

[Toller]

"George" <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:L8edneemcOAuWHPY...@adelphia.com...

Its square edged and face nailed.
The house is about 25 years old, and while it is not much by today's
standards, when it was built it was considered to be a premium house. Guess
they cut a few corners.

[RicodJour]

Toller wrote:
> "George" <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message

> > Toller wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >> Yes, face-nailed oak floors. That is odd? I guess haven't looked at
> >> floors much; how is it normally done?
> >
> > Blind nailed if tongue and groove material or screwed and plugged if
> > square edged material. Face nailing is pretty unusual.
>
> Its square edged and face nailed.
> The house is about 25 years old, and while it is not much by today's
> standards, when it was built it was considered to be a premium house. Guess
> they cut a few corners.

There's nothing that can be done to make those nails bite if they're
not biting now. Face nailing puts the fastener perpendicular to the
direction of wood movement. Wood floors move - a lot - and the
installation has to be designed to accommodate that movement. Your
installation can't. As the wood expands and contracts with the
changes of season and humidity, the nails essentially sway back and
forth and enlarge the holes in the subfloor, decreasing the holding
power of the nails. The seasonal changes also cause the wood flooring
to expand and contract vertically, so the nail pops the same way a
drywall nail would.

I really am at a loss as to what could be done to fix it short of
pulling all of the nails and using counterbored screws and plugs.
http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/flooring/hardwood/plugs/sanded.htm

That's a hell of a lot of work and unless there's not a lot of
flooring with the problem or it's really expensive flooring it's
probably not worth the time to try and salvage the bad installation.
Looking on the bright side, you could reclaim the yanked planks for
other woodworking projects.

R

[Goedjn]

Depends. Face-nailing plank floor isn't WRONG, it's just way more
common on older pine floors than modern oak ones. (using
box nails to do it, however, *IS* wrong.)

[RicodJour]

Goedjn wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 18:00:09 GMT, "Toller" <Tol...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
> >"George" <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message

> >> Toller wrote:
> >>>>
> >>> Yes, face-nailed oak floors. That is odd? I guess haven't looked at
> >>> floors much; how is it normally done?
> >>
> >> Blind nailed if tongue and groove material or screwed and plugged if
> >> square edged material. Face nailing is pretty unusual.
> >
> >Its square edged and face nailed.
> >The house is about 25 years old, and while it is not much by today's
> >standards, when it was built it was considered to be a premium house. Guess
> >they cut a few corners.
>
> Depends. Face-nailing plank floor isn't WRONG, it's just way more
> common on older pine floors than modern oak ones. (using
> box nails to do it, however, *IS* wrong.)

Actually, face nailing is wrong. It's never a good idea. The only
time it is done is when someone doesn't have T&G flooring available -
either because they got a "deal" on square edged board or don't
understand how a wood floor moves - or because they don't understand
the need for more expensive and slower-to-install screws. The
"wrongness" of face nailing can be somewhat offset by using cut nails
or, better yet, deformed shank nails such as ring shanks and the
like. Cut nails sever the wood fibers and provide better holding
power. And obviously screws are better than nails - as long as you
use the right sort of screws.

The holding power of a nail is based on a bunch of factors - type of
nail, coatings, shank size, type of wood and depth of embedment. For
any given nail and framing situation, the depth of embedment is of
primary importance. A face nail's maximum embedment is the thickness
of the subfloor (joists only occupy ~15% of the floor). A nail that's
driven at a 45 degree angle, like the typical nail in a T&G
installation, has an embedment 1.4 times greater than the thickness of
the subfloor. Which means it will have 40% more holding power. And
that's not even taking into account the difference in force the floor
exerts on an angled nail as opposed to a face nail.

R

[Goedjn]

On 7 Mar 2007 13:13:36 -0800, "RicodJour" <rico...@worldemail.com>
wrote:

Old-style plank floors are usually laid over diagonal 2x dimension
lumber subfloors. Given that the ones in my grandmother's
house have lasted for 200 years or so, I gotta conclude that
the technique works. I'll admit that it probably won't work
as well over pressboard, but those should have less movement
in the first place. It's also not the look that most people
think of when they hear "oak floors".

[Joan]

replying to Toller, Joan wrote:

I have the same problem, did you ever get an answer?


--

[Mayayana]

| > I have oak floors. Nail heads come up, I push them down, and they come
up
| > again.
| > I won't even ask why they come up

Probably expansion and contraction. Do you perhaps
have temperture extremes in the area? No central
heat, or an uninsulated area below the floor?

I've never seen it occur as a major problem, but
sometimes in old houses, nails need to be tapped
down occasionally.

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
Are they just planks not T&G type? I'd replace nails with screws
counter sunk and cover the screw head with wood filler. Or pull the nail
all the way out, dip it in epoxy and renail it down, wipe clean epoxy
residue B4 it sets.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

A hardwood floor should NEVER have exposed nail heads. They are
"almost exclusively) tounge and groof - with the nails, cleats, or
staples totally hidden by the next board.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

If surface nailed flooring (like old pine plank floors) have problems
with nails loosening it is almost always because something is
"giving". Insufficient support in the sub-structure the floors are
fastened to. If nothing moves, nails won't pop.

[Joan]

replying to Toller, Joan wrote:
> Toller wrote:
>

Brand new house, repurposed old boards, radiant heat below, nervous about
longer nails....right now I simply have a community hammer and everyone
knows what to do with it and nobody is allowed to go barefoot! Will try a
little glue in the hole. Thanks

--

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Radiant heat unsed re-purposed oak board floor is just BEGGING for a
problem. Doesn't matter what you do with those face nails - they WILL
come out. Contersink screws and plug with glued in plugs, sanded
smooth will give you a fighting chance - depending how the radiant
heating is implemented.

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
Huh?! brand new house? Building inspector did not mind about the way
loor boards are fastened? Big safety hazard. Hope you don't have small
kids in the house. Only Oak plank floor was in my first house built in
1970. T&G planks nailed with impact hammer one by one, so no nails are
exposed. Even my poor cabin built in 1997 has yellow pine floor with T&G
planks. Looks like they installed the floor like building a fence?, LOL!

[micky]

On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 18:44:01 +0000, Joan
<caedfaa9ed1216d60e...@example.com> wrote:

>replying to Toller, Joan wrote:
>> Toller wrote:
>>
>> I have oak floors. Nail heads come up, I push them down, and they come up
>> again.

For sure. Some of them might not come up, but renailing the ones that
do is not going to help them***. They will probably come up again and
if they've come up twice, then for sure, they'll keep coming up.

What kind of nails are you using?

>> I won't even ask why they come up, but just how do I keep them from doing
>> it.
>> Pull them and put in larger nails (thicker, longer?)? Some sort of glue?
>> Move?
>
>
>Brand new house, repurposed old boards, radiant heat below, nervous about
>longer nails..

Why nervous about longer nails? What's wrong with longer nails? Can
you look to see how close to the radiant heat the current nails are.
You may need one person upstairs and the other downstairs.

Are you sure these nails are long enough to reach wood underneath? Or
something underneath? What are they nailed into and are you sure the
nails reach?

>..right now I simply have a community hammer and everyone
>knows what to do with it and nobody is allowed to go barefoot! Will try a
>little glue in the hole. Thanks

Some of the other ideas -- countersunk screws with wood plugs for
example -- are probably better than this, but if you are sure your
nails are reaching wood underneath, and not just a quarter inch in.
More like 3/4", then I might.

***I might pull out every nail that comes out at all and renail it at an
angle, along with another nail very close by at the opposite angle.
Using a nail set to put the heads below the surface of the wood.

By being at opposite angles, when the wood pushes up, it can't go up,
because one nail insists it to goes up and to the right, and the other
insists it goes up and to the left (for example) . If the wood stays
down, it's not able to push the nails up. If one can come up on its
own anyhow, I think is much less likely.

And don't use smooth nails. use nails with ridges that keep them from
coming back up, or spiral nails (I forget what they are called, but
they're like square nails that were twisted.) Depending on how tightly
they fit into the holes that are already there, and depending on what
the wood is like now -- maybe it's so old that it doesn't grip well,
even spiral nails or nails with ridges == they may not come up like your
current nails do. Put in two for each nail there now, at opposing
angles.

They make these nails in large size, for decks, and in small size for
fence pickets. You can probably get them in medium too. Try
construction supply, and if not that online. Talk to others in the
trade about how likely these two nails and/or opposing angles are to
work


It's not just about not walking barefoot. Someone's going to trip on
something and his or her face will land on a nail head, her cheek, lips,

Or a kid will be playing and roll over or fall and hit the nail head,
with her face, maybe her eye?

[Norminn]

The old-fashioned trick I've read about is to drive nails at an angle;
usually two on the end of a board are driven at slightly different
angles. Good if you know where the radiant heat is.

[Don Phillipson]

>> Toller wrote:
>>
>> I have oak floors. Nail heads come up, I push them down, and they come
>> up again.
>> I won't even ask why they come up, but just how do I keep them from doing
>> it.
>> Pull them and put in larger nails (thicker, longer?)? Some sort of glue?
>> Move?
>

"Joan" <caedfaa9ed1216d60e...@example.com> wrote in message
news:8eee5$53ac23a2$cf3aab60$30...@news.flashnewsgroups.com...

> I have the same problem, did you ever get an answer?

. . .

> Brand new house, repurposed old boards, radiant heat below, nervous about
> longer nails....right now I simply have a community hammer and everyone
> knows what to do with it and nobody is allowed to go barefoot! Will try a
> little glue in the hole. Thanks

Glue on top is a bad idea. Ridged nails (standard hardware item) resist
popping up.

Beware nailing floors with a community hammer. In order to minimize
damage, floor nails should be finished with a nail set (punch), using the
smallest effective hammer.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[notbob]

On 2014-06-27, Norminn <nor...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> The old-fashioned trick I've read about is to drive nails at an angle;
> usually two on the end of a board are driven at slightly different
> angles.

I don't know about it's done, these days, but I watched for a whole day
as a couple floor layers layed an entire hardwood floor when I was jes
a wee tyke, back in the 50's. You never even saw the nails when done
correctly.

As I recall, the hardwood boards were alternately lipped and the nail
driven in at an angle so the next board covered the nails and
presumably helped keep the nails in place.


------ --------
| |
/--- ---
/ | |
---/----- ------
/
/ <--nail


Back then, they all used a hatchet with a hammer head on the back
side. Said they were better balanced than regular hammers. I
remember jes a tiny tap to start the nail, then a single well placed
stroke to drive the nail home.

Looking online, I see all kindsa special tools to get the proper nail
angle, from alignment jigs to air staplers. Even high quality
adhesives that eliminate nails, altogether. Seems to me if you have
nails coming up outta the flooring, somebody did something seriously
wrong. ;)

nb

[Robert Green]

"Norminn" <nor...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:A4CdnSYEw6vuzDDOnZ2dnUVZ_u-

<stuff snipped>

> The old-fashioned trick I've read about is to drive nails at an angle;
> usually two on the end of a board are driven at slightly different
> angles. Good if you know where the radiant heat is.

Oh so bad if you don't! (-:

I am not sure, but I think we're talking about just re-driving the nails
that have come back up back down again. I get that sense because of the
radiant flooring, which I believe is causing the wood to expand and contract
and is exacerbating the problem. Installation of the radiant heat is
probably the root cause of the flooring trouble because of the
heating/cooling and possible poor installation. It certainly would make me
very hesitant to drive nails or put screws into any place that didn't
already have them. There's nothing quite as annoying as trying to fix one
problem and ending up creating a much bigger one. BT,DT, too. )-:

If the OP is constrained to reusing the same nail holes there are different
types of nails that have much better resistance to loosening than common
nails. If you want extra holding power, go with a ring-shank or screw-shank
nail. Tests show that modified-shank nails hold much better than
smooth-shank nails.

Still, there are still some unanswered questions here, such as WHY the nail
heads are even visible in the first place. As Notbob and others have noted,
the usual method of laying a tongue and groove floor is to conceal the nails
with each course. We also don't know what kind of subfloor they are nailed
into. Or even if they ARE nailed into a subflooring. In my years of
rehabbing fixer-uppers, I've seen stranger. Not much stranger, but
stranger. <g>

It's amazing the things you can discover if you tell a Realtor to give you
the listings for the ten cheapest properties in an area. That's how I
bought my first fixer upper - it was the best of 10 very, very distressed
houses. VERY distressed.

I believe it was Clare that pointed out that a bad underlayment is going to
continue to pop nails until that problem is fixed. Worse still, is that it
may be practically impossible to fix without pulling up the floor. I agree
with Don, glue is a bad idea that will become obvious when it's time to
refinish the floor. Been there, done that, discovered that glue can "flower
out" along the wood fibers and seriously change the way it takes stain and
other finishes.

Screws were suggested, and they might be a good idea if the substrate will
hold them. If the floors are moving around from the weight of walking
because of a bad underlayment, even screws might even loosen. If that's the
case, I might even consider long countersunk machine screws with washers and
nuts on the other side of the floor at several strategic locations to keep
the substrate and the oak floor from "tectonic" action. (-:

--
Bobby G.

[dpb]

How wide is the flooring and is it just old 3/4"T tongue and groove
flooring? If so, it should never have been face-nailed.

What's the subflooring and what's it nailed into? I suspect if it's a
new house they probably didn't put in a sufficient subfloor and it's
just nailed into a layer of MDF or the like.

I suspect in this case the only solution is going to be to take the
floors up and re-lay them properly.

--

[dpb]

On 6/27/2014 4:59 PM, dpb wrote:
...

> I suspect in this case the only solution is going to be to take the
> floors up and re-lay them properly.

Alternatively, depending on the subflooring and what you can fasten into
owing to the radiant heating issue, you _might_ be able to pull nails
and go to a screw in the same location. Would then likely have to
counterbore each for a plug to hide the heads or just give up and "go w/
the look"...

--

[dpb]

On 6/27/2014 4:59 PM, dpb wrote:

> On 6/26/2014 1:44 PM, Joan wrote:

...

>> Brand new house, repurposed old boards, radiant heat below, nervous about
>> longer nails....right now I simply have a community hammer and everyone
>> knows what to do with it and nobody is allowed to go barefoot! Will try a
>> little glue in the hole. Thanks
>

...

> I suspect in this case the only solution is going to be to take the
> floors up and re-lay them properly.

BTW, here's a pretty good primer on using hardwood over radiant heating
systems...we have no info on just what your system is for anything other
than just generalities that using solid wood strip flooring is the ideal
solution as previously noted--

<http://www.hoskinghardwood.com/Department/Hardwood-Floors/Hardwood-Flooring-Over-Radiant-Heat.aspx?dId=7&pageId=8>

--

[dpb]

On 6/28/2014 11:52 AM, dpb wrote:
...

> BTW, here's a pretty good primer on using hardwood over radiant heating
> systems...we have no info on just what your system is for anything other
> than just generalities that using solid wood strip flooring is the ideal
> solution as previously noted--

...

Which of course was intended to read "...that using solid wood strip
flooring is _NOT_ the ideal solution".

--

[micky]

On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 18:44:01 +0000, Joan
<caedfaa9ed1216d60e...@example.com> wrote:

>replying to Toller, Joan wrote:
>> Toller wrote:
>>
>> I have oak floors. Nail heads come up, I push them down, and they come up
>> again.
>> I won't even ask why they come up, but just how do I keep them from doing
>> it.
>> Pull them and put in larger nails (thicker, longer?)? Some sort of glue?
>> Move?
>
>
>Brand new house, repurposed old boards,

Does repurposed mean that the boards were not used for flooring before?
That's what it does mean, but what do you mean by the word.

If they were used as flooring before, IMO they are not repurposed. It
is the same purpose, just somewhere else. Tthey are used, or reclaimed,
or salvaged, or second- hand.

How wide is each board? How long?

Does every board have a nail in it? Two? One at each end? Or what?

How long have they been nailed down and what percent of the nails are
coming up? In the center of the room, near the edge?

Does each board have a tongue that matches the groove in the next board?


Was a nail set used to put the nail heads below the surface? Probably.
What kind of heads did the nails have? Headless? Something else? Be
sure to use a nail set all the time, so you get the head below the
surface without damaging the floor

[paulbo...@gmail.com]

I’m coming in long after this first message but I thought it was worth noting that all the replies I’ve seen are from people who have dealt with what I consider to be younger houses, say 50 years old or less, I have an almost 100-year-old house and the oak floors are definitely not tongue and groove and definitely face nailed (oh so many nails) and that was the standard I’ve seen in all houses in my neighborhood all built by different builders as far as I know. The material cost of T&G flooring was considerable back then. I’m not sure about higher end homes of the time, but the middling ones had subfloor of wide planks across the floor joists then at 90 degrees there are narrow oak plankswith two nails at the ends and every 6 inches another pair “favoring” the sides the planks are 1 1/2 inches wide and the intermediate nails are 1/4 inch from the edges. All set and filled.
That being said, today I encountered my first rising nail, not bad considering how long it toook to fail.
My prescription: take careful note of the nail length and diameter get some kind of textured nail of that length, drive it next to the old hole, set the head, use filler designed for floors to fill both the old hole and the new one. Rinse and repeat!

[Oren]

Ring Shank nails:

<https://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-different-uses-of-ring-shank-nails.htm>

"...Flooring and decking are two projects that often employ ring shank
nails. Floors typically will be walked on daily, which paces stress on
the wood or floor material and can wear the area around the nails
until they become loose. Decks have a similar situation, because
frequent use will cause the nails to eventually loosen with time.
These nails are able to stay in longer, making them safer and more
durable for these projects."

[dpb]

On 12/5/2018 9:51 AM, paulbo...@gmail.com wrote:
> I’m coming in long after this first message but I thought it was worth noting that all the replies I’ve seen are from people who have dealt with what I consider to be younger houses, say 50 years old or less, I have an almost 100-year-old house and the oak floors are definitely not tongue and groove and definitely face nailed (oh so many nails) and that was the standard I’ve seen in all houses in my neighborhood all built by different builders as far as I know. The material cost of T&G flooring was considerable back then. I’m not sure about higher end homes of the time, but the middling ones had subfloor of wide planks across the floor joists then at 90 degrees there are narrow oak plankswith two nails at the ends and every 6 inches another pair “favoring” the sides the planks are 1 1/2 inches wide and the intermediate nails are 1/4 inch from the edges. All set and filled.

...

That's curious...this is a 100+ yr old farm house that is hardly
anything would call "higher end" albeit a substantially and well-built home.

It is also 1-1/2" oak flooring but is T&G and nailed as one would
expect, albeit was clearly hand-nailed with finish nails.

The subflooring is 1X8 but on 45, not perpendicular to the joists.

I've never seen narrow strip flooring that was square-sawn, even going
back to the Federal-style houses built in early- to mid-19th century
worked over a number of back in Virginia to current. I suppose it was
common practice somewhere, but nothing I've ever seen. Where is this
you describe located?

--

[Ickleangeleyes]

Would counter sunk screws works for floorboards i.e. Not a hardwood floor but boards under a carpeted floor? The floorboards also move & creak a lot. Any suggestions to solve the noise would also be appreciated.

--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/how-to-keep-hardwood-floor-nails-from-coming-up-201034-.htm

[Rod Speed]

Ickleangeleyes <8412a32521086a1c...@example.com> wrote

> Would counter sunk screws works for floorboards

Yes, some do go that route.

> i.e. Not a hardwood floor but boards under a carpeted floor?

> The floorboards also move & creak a lot.

That doesn't happen with a properly done floor
but it would be a lot of work to redo it now.

> Any suggestions to solve the noise would also be appreciated.

You could top the whole floor with sheet flooring.

[Peeler]

On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 09:57:28 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

[Marilyn Manson]

On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 3:32:02 PM UTC-5, Ickleangeleyes wrote:
> Would counter sunk screws works for floorboards i.e. Not a hardwood floor but boards under a carpeted floor? The floorboards also move & creak a lot. Any suggestions to solve the noise would also be appreciated.
>

What kind of "boards"? How old is the house? (My sub-floors are 1 x 6 T&G set perpendicular
to the joists. Douglas fir, I believe.)

There are special screws made for securing the subfloor to the joists when carpet is present. You
screw down through the carpet and then snap the heads off as part of the install process. I've
never tried them, so I can't vouch for them. There is more than one brand. Here's one example
of the kit and spare screws:

https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeek+no+more+screws

If you have access to the joists from below, squeaks can often be eliminated by putting shims
between the top of the joists and the bottom of the sub-floor. Find the squeak by having
someone "flex" the floor from above while you search from below. Putting some wood glue
on the top and bottom of the shim can make the repair last longer.

Here's another product I've never tried, although I have used Simpson Strong-Tie angle plates with
someone standing on the squeaky section to hold it down during installation. Same basic idea.

https://www.squeakyfloor.com/squeak-relief-floor-repair-kit/

[Marilyn Manson]

Sheet flooring or sheet sub-flooring?

What is it that you are suggesting that would "solve the noise"?