Acrylic over oil-based primer on house exterior.
gnatbert
equivalent quality.
I have had suggestions from painters that are all over the map regarding
which paint to use, which type, etc. Not knowing anything about painting,
I'd like some feedback from some objective voices that know paint.
Today I spoke with a guy who I previously had heard good things about. He
looked at it and said he was not equiped for this big a job because of the
height and because he was only working a 3-man crew. But he still gave me a
little advice and answered some questions. One thing he said was that if it
were his house and he were painting it, he would use an oil base primer. He
said it would soak in and adhere to the wood better and existing paint
better (there will be a lot of bare weathered wood because the paint is
peeling badly). It's the top coat on it now is acrylic. In some spots its
over the bare wood where they had previously prepped to. Other spots are
thick with paint probably going back to the original (100 years old),
there's likely to be some oil paint exposed--or at least the edges of these
1/8 thick areas would be exposed and made of mostly oil base paint.
I've had another suggest an oil base primer, but most recommend this acrylic
bonding primer. In either case, oil or acrylic primer, they are all talking
acrylic finish coats. I don't know if those recommending acrylic are right
in saying its as good or better than oil base, or if they just hate working
with it. I want to get the prep and priming done right this time so in the
future it wont be as big a problem to keep up with. Which do you think I
should go with, the oil or acrylic primer?
PS: How much thinning of a paint like MooreGuard should I consider
acceptable from painters? Most when I mentioned it say they don't do it. A
guy just now said he would have some painters that did it, particularly with
gloss paint, for ease of application and hiding brush strokes. I can see
this to some degree, as I've thinned gloss myself painting interiors. But I
don't know what is acceptable for exterior gloss or satin paints. Anyone?
Thanks.
Michael Baugh
penetrating. But it needs to be one that'll accept an acrylic topcoat.
And be absolutely sure you have a good vapor barrier on the interior,
to keep moisture-laden air from getting to the outside sheathing, and then
being
trapped under the exterior paint. Because if that happens, the trapped
moisture
will be heated by the sun, at the same time that the paint is being heated
and
softened, so a 'bubble' is formed, and the paint becomes known as
'blistered'
as that liquid, now in a vapor state, 'tries' to get out. It happens like
that in the
wintertime too.
DON'T USE PORTER PAINT!!!!!!!!!! What, me shouting?
gnatbert <gnat...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Qf247.109289$HJ1.3107962@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
Dan Hicks
Benjamin Moore makes something that they used to call "Moore-White"
primer (but is now called something else) that is what I always use.
I'll defer to others on whether/how to prime painted surfaces.
I doubt that many painters will be inclined to thin regular semi-gloss
house paint. They want the coat to go on fairly thick to assure good
coverage, and generally the paint is workable just as it comes from the
can, so no real incentive to thin.
--
Dan Hicks
Self-education is, I believe, the only kind of education there is.
--Asimov
davefr
Duration. It has a lifetime warranty and feeback here is pretty
positive.
Jack Caldwell
Reports June '99 for evaluation. Over the years BJ has produced some
varities of paints that were good but some that were quite substandard. Why
pay the higher price?
"gnatbert" <gnat...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Qf247.109289$HJ1.3107962@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
Dan Hicks
stores that carry other stuff you need (in other brands) and generally
have good advice. You'll notice that the pros frequently shop there.
--
Dan Hicks
The most dangerous of all falsehoods is a slightly distorted truth.
gnatbert
"Michael Baugh" <baug...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:BS547.109880$HJ1.3...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
> I'd go with an oil base primer for the raw wood, because it'll be far more
> penetrating. But it needs to be one that'll accept an acrylic topcoat.
> And be absolutely sure you have a good vapor barrier on the interior,
Not sure what constitutes a good vapor barrier on the interior, but we're
talking a hundred year old house here. I believe most of the exterior
walls were replaced with drywall and insulated, so there's backing on the
insulation. But no sheets of any kind of plastic barrier or what not (I
don't know about that stuff).
> to keep moisture-laden air from getting to the outside sheathing, and then
> being
> trapped under the exterior paint. Because if that happens, the trapped
> moisture
> will be heated by the sun, at the same time that the paint is being heated
> and
> softened, so a 'bubble' is formed, and the paint
are you refering specifically to oil-based paint here? is this not as big a
problem with acrylic?
>becomes known as
> 'blistered'
> as that liquid, now in a vapor state, 'tries' to get out. It happens like
> that in the
> wintertime too.
> DON'T USE PORTER PAINT!!!!!!!!!! What, me shouting?
Why don't you like Porter. It's the top seller here, and I can't tell who's
right. Some say Moore is bad, some say Porter is bad. One guy says
Porter's acrylic bonding primer is the best on the market. Other wants to
use Porter primer with Moore top coat. Problem is, most probably have a
financial bias at work, but you can't distinguish those from ones telling it
to you straight. One guy explained that since Porter's changed hands,
they've become much stricter on credit lines offered to painters, which
turned away painters.
Too bad Porter isn't a big enough brand to be included in consumer reports
rating and the like.
gnatbert
"Dan Hicks" <danh...@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:3B50F619...@ieee.org...
> On bare wood I would insist on an alkyd (essentially oil) primer.
> Benjamin Moore makes something that they used to call "Moore-White"
> primer (but is now called something else) that is what I always use.
>
> I'll defer to others on whether/how to prime painted surfaces.
>
> I doubt that many painters will be inclined to thin regular semi-gloss
> house paint. They want the coat to go on fairly thick to assure good
> coverage, and generally the paint is workable just as it comes from the
> can, so no real incentive to thin.
I wonder why this guy was telling me a number of his painters would
undoubtedly want to thin? You figure he was giving me a bill of goods on
that? Oh well, he was priced so high I doubt I'll use him.
gnatbert
"davefr" <dav...@Nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ud22ltke5vno4e9so...@4ax.com...
> If the paint job is this "challenging" why aren't you using SW
> Duration. It has a lifetime warranty and feeback here is pretty
> positive.
I can check into it. Of course, that lifetime warranty is only for paint,
and I wonder what kind of stipulations they make. Seems like they'd want to
apply the guarantee to only properly prepped applications, and how would
they verify that I wonder.
gnatbert
> It's always worked for me. And the stores that sell it are independent
> stores that carry other stuff you need (in other brands) and generally
> have good advice. You'll notice that the pros frequently shop there.
>
> Jack Caldwell wrote:
> >
> > I can't figure why so many folks tought Benjamin Moore. Look a Consumer
> > Reports June '99 for evaluation. Over the years BJ has produced some
> > varities of paints that were good but some that were quite substandard.
Why
> > pay the higher price?
I just leaned toward it because it seemed to be a safe bet for someone not
familiar with paint. Many professionals are bound to use it just because of
customer demand though, since people are familiar with it over a larger area
and whereever they move they find it there. I wonder professionals are also
inclined to use it for ease of business practices rather than quality. Just
speculating. I have no idea. Like I said, I just figured it was a safe
bet. I'll check the Consumer Reports.
Dan Hicks
>
> "Michael Baugh" <baug...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:BS547.109880$HJ1.3...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
> > I'd go with an oil base primer for the raw wood, because it'll be far more
> > penetrating. But it needs to be one that'll accept an acrylic topcoat.
> > And be absolutely sure you have a good vapor barrier on the interior,
>
> Not sure what constitutes a good vapor barrier on the interior, but we're
> talking a hundred year old house here. I believe most of the exterior
> walls were replaced with drywall and insulated, so there's backing on the
> insulation. But no sheets of any kind of plastic barrier or what not (I
> don't know about that stuff).
If the walls have been replaced then that's bad in a way. The old
plaster with umpty-ump coats of oil paint on it made a pretty good vapor
barrier. Drywall with a coat of latex lets the moisture right through
unless vapor barrier paint was used. If there is no plastic vapor
barrier under the drywall then a coat of vapor barrier paint would be in
order (assuming this house is located in the South where there's no real
winter).
--
Dan Hicks
The little I know I owe to my ignorance. --George McGovern
Dan Hicks
Most home owners won't specify a paint brand, and will be perfectly
happy if the painters mention a brand that comes from a discount store.
Painters obviously want ease of application, but they also want good
coverage and few complaints. The difference in paint price between the
cheap stuff and good stuff isn't that great for a full pro job,
including all prep work, so pros don't have a strong incentive to go
cheap.
--
Dan Hicks
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today. --James
Dean
gnatbert
Not south. Central. We can get some really cold winters. Usually though,
we just have a particularly cold week here and there, with the rest not so
bad. Last winter actually started early, had a cold november into December.
Yet usually there is one week in December and one week in February where
temperatures hit 70F. Capable of any extreme. 10 below no problem. I've
never ever heard of vapor barrier paint, so I doubt it something common in
this area.
Paul Broussard
>
> I can't figure why so many folks tought Benjamin Moore. Look a Consumer
> Reports June '99 for evaluation. Over the years BJ has produced some
> varities of paints that were good but some that were quite substandard. Why
> pay the higher price?
We use BM almost exclusively. True, there are several individual types
of paint, say, SW's Duration, that outperforms BM's individual types,
like Mooreglo, but you won't find any company that has a better lineup
of products than BM. Also true that their lineup is aging, as more and
more, I see other brands catching up to BM. 10 years ago, that certainly
wasn't true. Even 5 years ago, BM was consistently at the top of CR
ratings.
While sketchy at best, I've been getting the feeling that BM's
independent dealers are usually a bit better than any others in the
area. It is certainly true here in Baton Rouge. There is such a huge
following here with homeowners, architects, and decorators, if I were to
use another brand, my clients would consider it inferior. Old habits are
hard to break. For the type of work I do, I need good quality service,
with the best color match personnel around.
Of course, this all comes at a bit of a premium over other brands, and
certainly a lot more than some box stores. But the box stores don't have
the level of service I need. They also don't carry a complete line of
sundries that I typically use. Basically, I waste time by going to the
box stores, and time is money.
Late last year, BM was bought out by Berkshire Hathaway Inc. - Warren
Buffett's company. It remains to be seen if they will continue the
research into improving their coatings, especially as the newer water
based products phase out their solvent based ones.
--
Broussard Paint Contractors, friend of Bill's
http://www.broussardpaint.com
Dan Hicks
> Not south. Central. We can get some really cold winters. Usually though,
> we just have a particularly cold week here and there, with the rest not so
> bad. Last winter actually started early, had a cold november into December.
> Yet usually there is one week in December and one week in February where
> temperatures hit 70F. Capable of any extreme. 10 below no problem. I've
> never ever heard of vapor barrier paint, so I doubt it something common in
> this area.
Vapor barrier paint is quite common, you just have to ask the right
questions. Some varieties of regular primers and wall paints have good
vapor barrier characteristics. The can will list the vapor barrier
characteristics in terms of "perms", and I **vaguely** recall that
anything **smaller** than one perm is goodness. (Ie, smaller is
better.)
--
Dan Hicks
Any fool can make a rule, and every fool will mind it. --Cousin Woodman
gnatbert
No mention of it on the cans of interior Porter paints and primer I have. I
still have some cans in the attic of the stuff that was put on prior to the
Porter I used-- some was a local brand, and some was Sears Easy Living.
Neither of those mention perms or vapor barrier either.
gnatbert
"Paul Broussard" <pbrou...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3B53594E...@home.com...
> Jack Caldwell wrote:
> >
> > I can't figure why so many folks tought Benjamin Moore. Look a Consumer
> > Reports June '99 for evaluation. Over the years BJ has produced some
> > varities of paints that were good but some that were quite substandard.
Why
> > pay the higher price?
>
> We use BM almost exclusively. True, there are several individual types
> of paint, say, SW's Duration, that outperforms BM's individual types,
> like Mooreglo, but you won't find any company that has a better lineup
> of products than BM. Also true that their lineup is aging, as more and
> more, I see other brands catching up to BM.
Paul, what do you think of the suggestion I've gotten from a few painters to
use an oil-based primer (one of which declined my job because he didn't have
the crew)? Of couse I'm in Ohio River Valley, so may be different from
Louisiana. When I asked the guys working in the Benjamin Moore and Porter
stores about oil vs acrylic, they've all unhesitatingly said to use acrylic
bonding primer.
I also happened to hear today from a neighbor that he thought a previous
owner of this house replaced a lot of the siding with redwood. I'm going to
try to get in touch with him to confirm this. I've heard that with redwood
and cedar, an oil based primer is best. It's pretty easy to tell which
boards were replaced.
TinMan1332
>still have some cans in the attic of the stuff that was put on prior to the
>Porter I used-- some was a local brand, and some was Sears Easy Living.
>Neither of those mention perms or vapor barrier either.
That info will be in the MSDS
TinMan1332
desirable results (i.e. problems down the road) with acrylic primers in certain
situations. So far the oil has not let me down.
Also the oil and/or alkyd primers are much better at dealing with tannin bleed
(which is the problem with redwood and cedar).
Signed,
Paul I'm Not
(TinMan)
gnatbert
"TinMan1332" <tinma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010717001915...@ng-ck1.aol.com...
TinMan1332
Material Saftey & Data Specs
The printed information is required to be available (to anyone who desires it)
for each individual product they sell. Most paint companies compile a large
MSDS that covers all of their products. That MSDS should be on display for
anyone to reference it.
Michael Baugh
rating of 0.99 or better.
gnatbert <gnat...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:KcW47.119114$HJ1.3...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...