Copper vs. PVC in hard water area
William Pav
Does anyone have any thoughts on using PVC instead of copper in
hard water areas... I've got well water, and I'll be installing
a water softener this summer, but due to space considerations,
the softener will be about 30' from the storage tank, close to
the water heater. Currently, I have 3/4" copper to the water
heater.
I am going to replace (some of) the copper anyay because it
runs about 4" from the electrical breaker box (near the
storage tank). I'm concerned about a pinhole leak spraying
water onto the breaker box - bad news...
I was thinking PVC because it wouldn't (I think) corrode from
the mineral content of the water. Also, its easier to work
with PVC - glueing vs. sweating fittings.
Should I stay at 3/4" PVC or should I move up to 1" or 1.5"
to allow for mineral buildup in this stretch of pipe?
hi...@millcomm.com
In <3301BBAD...@gic.gi.com>, William Pav <wp...@gic.gi.com> writes:
>Does anyone have any thoughts on using PVC instead of copper in
>hard water areas... I've got well water, and I'll be installing
>a water softener this summer, but due to space considerations,
>the softener will be about 30' from the storage tank, close to
>the water heater. Currently, I have 3/4" copper to the water
>heater.
>
>I am going to replace (some of) the copper anyay because it
>runs about 4" from the electrical breaker box (near the
>storage tank). I'm concerned about a pinhole leak spraying
>water onto the breaker box - bad news...
The thing to do here is to install a shield that will direct any leak
away from the box. This can be sheet metal, plastic drain pipe cut in
half, whatever.
>I was thinking PVC because it wouldn't (I think) corrode from
>the mineral content of the water. Also, its easier to work
>with PVC - glueing vs. sweating fittings.
Hard water and minerals aren't necessarily bad for copper. The one
problem (reported a while back in some areas of Florida) is water that
is apparently acid or which has particular minerals in it. In these
particular areas the copper (which would normally be good for 50 years
or more) can fail in five.
Dan Hicks
Hey!! My advice is free -- take it for what it's worth!
http://www.millcomm.com/~danhicks
Bill R.
Forget PVC. Use CPVC it is a much better and more stable product.
I don't think it is better than copper but much easier to work with.
William Pav <wp...@gic.gi.com> wrote:
>Does anyone have any thoughts on using PVC instead of copper in
>hard water areas... I've got well water, and I'll be installing
>a water softener this summer, but due to space considerations,
>the softener will be about 30' from the storage tank, close to
>the water heater. Currently, I have 3/4" copper to the water
>heater.
>I am going to replace (some of) the copper anyay because it
>runs about 4" from the electrical breaker box (near the
>storage tank). I'm concerned about a pinhole leak spraying
>water onto the breaker box - bad news...
>I was thinking PVC because it wouldn't (I think) corrode from
>the mineral content of the water. Also, its easier to work
>with PVC - glueing vs. sweating fittings.
>Should I stay at 3/4" PVC or should I move up to 1" or 1.5"
>to allow for mineral buildup in this stretch of pipe?
Bill R.
Gary Slusser
For cold water only applications my choice is PVC, its cheaper and the
inside diameter is larger than Cpvc, which gives you more water at the same
pressure. You install it the same as Cpvc. You must use the proper cleaner
and cement, all purpose for both or "only for cpvc" or "only for pvc",
don't use the wrong prep or cement. And Pvc has the highest pressure
ratings at a given temperature. The drawback to both is that they need
support in runs over 3-4' but then copper isn't much different, its stiffer
but heavier so every 4-5'.
There will be those that question the larger id, !/2" or 3/4", Pvc has the
larger inside dia. for both the tubing and fittings. The larger dia. should
always be used so that pressure drop is minimized, this will provide more
water at the faucets etc.
Gary
Bill R. <wrud...@cloudnet.com> wrote in article
<5dvbdf$i...@pleides.cloudnet.com>...
Scott
On Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:46:37 -0500, William Pav <wp...@gic.gi.com>
wrote:
>Does anyone have any thoughts on using PVC instead of copper in
>hard water areas... I've got well water, and I'll be installing
>a water softener this summer, but due to space considerations,
>the softener will be about 30' from the storage tank, close to
>the water heater. Currently, I have 3/4" copper to the water
>heater.
>
>I am going to replace (some of) the copper anyay because it
>runs about 4" from the electrical breaker box (near the
>storage tank). I'm concerned about a pinhole leak spraying
>water onto the breaker box - bad news...
>
>I was thinking PVC because it wouldn't (I think) corrode from
>the mineral content of the water. Also, its easier to work
>with PVC - glueing vs. sweating fittings.
>
>Should I stay at 3/4" PVC or should I move up to 1" or 1.5"
>to allow for mineral buildup in this stretch of pipe?
>
I see a trend amoung DYI ers to have a fear of sweating copper pipe
and a belief that pvc is fool proof. Copper is not hard to sweat or
cut . In an area such as a garage where the pipe could be damaged by
any number of different types of accidents if it is to be ran exposed
coppers durability would be a plus. If you purchase a propane torch,
flux and solder and get some help via a friend or book to make some
practice joints you may find a new skill. I tought my brother to sweat
copper in about 15 min. and his first project was a water heater.
Good Luck
Scott jo...@trader.com
RescueGold
While you're looking at alternatives, check out Wirsbo AquaPEX. I recently
replumbed our 160 year old farmhouse with it and was VERY impressed. It
took me two days to remove the old copper (some of it virtually
inaccessible) and about six hours to replumb with PEX.
Our local plumbers swear by the stuff because of its resistance to freeze
damage (it just swells). Now it's starting to show up in local plumbing
supply houses, but I bought mine mail order from EarthStar in Maine. If
interested, I'd call their 800 number and ask for their free installation
handbook. It spells everything out very well. 800-323-6749.
Pete
Stowe, VT
Edward W. Scott
Scott (jo...@trader.com) wrote:
: On Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:46:37 -0500, William Pav <wp...@gic.gi.com>
: wrote:
: Good Luck
: Scott jo...@trader.com
--
Ed Scott ShrEdding SF Bay
sh...@netcom.com ..Windwing/ASD..
Lyle
I would agree that PVC and copper are easy to join but PVC is an order
of magnitude easier without the dangers of the open flame (try sweating
a copper joint with 1/2" clearance all around to wood).
Copper:
PROs:
- long lasting
- anti-bacterial (CU leeching)
CONs:
- cost
- more difficult installation (eg, fire hazards)
- susceptable to freezing (bursting)
- noisy
- can mineralize
- no insulation value (ie, good conductor of heat)
PVC:
PROs:
- cheap
- easy installation
- good insulator
- freeze resistant
- quiet
- smoother inside surface means better flow
- not prone to mineralization
CONs:
- may fail after 2 years (this is what the CU people will tell you, used
to be true, newer polys are much better)
- don't know about leeching of chems, my assumption is that it is low.
If I were building my own house I would use PVC. If I were building it
for resale I would use CU. There is still a lot of bad press on plastic
pipes (the old PB type really did fail in a short period).
Lyle.
hi...@millcomm.com
Keep in mind that most codes now require lead-free solder for potable
water supplies. This solder is available just about everywhere now,
but you have to make sure you get the right stuff (including a
compatible flux). Also, this solder doesn't flow quite as easily as
lead solder, so it takes a bit more practice to make it work right.
It helps if you get a MAPP gas torch instead of a propane one. The
little bit of extra heat makes things a bit easier.
William Pav
Scott wrote:
>
> I see a trend amoung DYI ers to have a fear of sweating copper pipe
> and a belief that pvc is fool proof. Copper is not hard to sweat or
> cut . In an area such as a garage where the pipe could be damaged by
> any number of different types of accidents if it is to be ran exposed
> coppers durability would be a plus. If you purchase a propane torch,
> flux and solder and get some help via a friend or book to make some
> practice joints you may find a new skill. I tought my brother to sweat
> copper in about 15 min. and his first project was a water heater.
>
> Scott jo...@trader.com
I'm not adverse to sweat fittings - I've done it extensively. (I
was a house manager for a fraternity house in the north-east, and
a there were many a burst heating pipe when we returned from
winter-break!)
Actually, watching This Old House, or Hometime on PBS will give you
all you really need to know about sweating copper. Just head to
your local home center and pick up a mess of copper and practice,
practice, practice!
Anyway, my concern was the mineral buildup in the copper pipes. And
would the minerals build up in the PVC as well? (I.E. is there any
special interaction between the copper and the minerals that makes
them accumulate?)
Don Bergren
On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:37:03 -0500, William Pav <wp...@gic.gi.com>
wrote:
>I'm not adverse to sweat fittings - I've done it extensively. (I
>was a house manager for a fraternity house in the north-east, and
>a there were many a burst heating pipe when we returned from
>winter-break!)
>
>Anyway, my concern was the mineral buildup in the copper pipes. And
>would the minerals build up in the PVC as well? (I.E. is there any
>special interaction between the copper and the minerals that makes
>them accumulate?)
We have redone our entire house with PVC for drainage and CPVC for all
service lines except for the few feet near the hot water heater which
we left as copper. We put in PVC shutoffs as well. We also replaced
two PVC lines to a washer that we installed 21 years ago (to make
sure), they were still like new. Our copper was all corroded and thin
but the PVC of 21 years was like new, so I recommend the PVC because
it's easier and quicker to work with and will out last copper by a
wide margin. BTW we are on a well with corrosive water.
********************************************************
| It's not that I don't know everything, it's |
| just that I don't understand it all. |
Donald W. Bergren ti...@midcoast.com
http://www.midcoast.com/~tink/
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