washer frozen
ant3...@yahoo.com
to the washer and the shut off valve's. Ran a kerosene heater a while,
but could not get watter to fill up.
Tonight I did get it to fill up with COLD water, (Hot would not fill)
but now it won't pump the water out, it just hums. I guess it blows
the overload, as it quits humming and I smell slight burning, then if
I turn it on again, it will hum again.
I had this last year too, but when It warmed up enough, it finely
worked OK.
So now the washer is full of water, but wont pump.
I think the pump is frozen in the washer and the drain line.
To give you an Idea, slight drip from laundry sink has filled sink an
inch or so, and has frozen up.
I have the kerosene heater running next to the dryer, will let run a
few hours, any other Ideas, would like to wash for work Monday.
Someone said to put a light bulb in the washer, but I was leery now
that it is full of water.
The washer sits in front of an outside block wall, there is some type
of fiber board on the wall, just down by the washer and dryer only,
with insulation behind it, but it is starting to get crappy and
falling apart ( the fiber board).
Should I maybe buy some insulation and cover it with plywood some
how.
This is in the back of a garage at ground level., the apartment is
over the garage.
If I get this thawed, can I keep a light bulb burning in there, inside
the washer?
Any other Ideas,
Thanks, Tony
ant3...@yahoo.com
> My washer is frozen again. 1st (last week) it was the rubber hose's
> Thanks, Tony
Well went down, turned it to Heavy, pull out, now she will agitate. So
it must have been frozen.
Took about 3.75 hours.
I'd like to keep it thawed.
Looking for Ideas, anyone done the light bulb burning in the tub
thing?
Any Ideas on insulation behind washer. Wondering if plywood only, over
the fiber board would help any.
I will try to link to some pictures tomorrow,
Thanks, Tony
Ed Pawlowski
Plywood has little insulation. Use foam board of at least an inch. More is
better.
ant3...@yahoo.com
> ant30...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Jan 9, 7:17 pm, "ant30...@yahoo.com" <ant30...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> My washer is frozen again. 1st (last week) it was the rubber hose's
> >>> Any other Ideas,
> >> Thanks, Tony
>
Plywood has little insulation. Use foam board of at least an inch.
More is
> better.
Not quite sure what foam board is, But is this something I can install
with out insulation behind it, I would prefer to do so.
Thanks, Tony
Ron
How about duct board used for AC ducts?
ant3...@yahoo.com
Well, I can say I've just about had it. The cycle must have been out
of sync, even though the timer said off, there was still water in
there, and needless to say the laundry sink is not draining properly,
so I had to remove a few bucket fulls of water from it to get it to
drain, probably the trap under it is frozen.
I need to get that wall insulated or something,
Maybe foam board is what is there now, it is brown, and if you had it,
I'm sure you could break it with your hands,
Had enough tonight, will post pictures of it tomorrow.
Thanks, Tony
Ed Pawlowski
Sheets of Styrofoam, or urethane foam, or eps polystyrene foam. Available
at any home center.
Ed Pawlowski
> Well, I can say I've just about had it. The cycle must have been out
> of sync, even though the timer said off, there was still water in
> there, and needless to say the laundry sink is not draining properly,
> so I had to remove a few bucket fulls of water from it to get it to
> drain, probably the trap under it is frozen.
> I need to get that wall insulated or something,
> Maybe foam board is what is there now, it is brown, and if you had it,
> I'm sure you could break it with your hands,
> Had enough tonight, will post pictures of it tomorrow.
> Thanks, Tony
Keep in mind, no matter how well you insulate, you still need a heat source
to start with.
mm
>My washer is frozen again. 1st (last week) it was the rubber hose's
>to the washer and the shut off valve's. Ran a kerosene heater a while,
>but could not get watter to fill up.
>Tonight I did get it to fill up with COLD water, (Hot would not fill)
Strangely, hot freezes sooner than cold. It was explained here once.
>but now it won't pump the water out, it just hums. I guess it blows
>the overload, as it quits humming and I smell slight burning, then if
If you smell burning each time, stop doing this. If it doesnt' pump
almost immediately, it's not going to pump.
>I turn it on again, it will hum again.
>I had this last year too, but when It warmed up enough, it finely
>worked OK.
>So now the washer is full of water, but wont pump.
>I think the pump is frozen in the washer and the drain line.
Probably.
>To give you an Idea, slight drip from laundry sink has filled sink an
>inch or so, and has frozen up.
>I have the kerosene heater running next to the dryer, will let run a
>few hours, any other Ideas, would like to wash for work Monday.
>Someone said to put a light bulb in the washer, but I was leery now
>that it is full of water.
Duh.
>The washer sits in front of an outside block wall, there is some type
>of fiber board on the wall, just down by the washer and dryer only,
>with insulation behind it, but it is starting to get crappy and
>falling apart ( the fiber board).
Where is this? The basement? Is the basement heated at all? Can you
sit down there for a couple hours without a heavy coat on? If it's
too cold to sit there, give up on trying to use it, until it's warmer
and it thaws out. Stop making it hum. Perhaps you can warm the whole
room, with a fan from the nearest heated room. Most of the heat will
be absorbed by the ice in the washer, and eventually the ice will
melt. Do your laundry at a laundromat until you can use the washer.
I don't think it's very likely the ice will break the washer, but
others may say differently.
>Should I maybe buy some insulation and cover it with plywood some
>how.
>This is in the back of a garage at ground level., the apartment is
>over the garage.
Oh, now you tell me. :)
>If I get this thawed, can I keep a light bulb burning in there, inside
>the washer?
That won't keep the hoses from freezing. YOu should turn the water to
the hoses off, so if they burst, they won't spray water everywhere for
hours.
Ron
> >Should I maybe buy some insulation and cover it with plywood some
> >how.
> >This is in the back of a garage at ground level., the apartment is
> >over the garage.
>
> Oh, now you tell me. :)
To OP stated where it was located, but for some reason you felt like
picking the post apart.
Haven't posted here in a while, but I can see you are the same
dickhead that you have always been here.
BTW, how many analog CRT TVs have you found in the trash after the
switchover?
aemeijers
I take it you are renting this place? Talk to the landlord. He doesn't
want broken pipes/appliances and a flood any more than you do. Sounds
like some remodeling is needed- maybe an insulated closet around the
laundry appliances, with a heat source of some kind to keep it above
freezing. Yes, a hard sustained freeze can destroy a washer, if it is
full of water. Not the tub, the plastic pump and fittings underneath it.
How breezy is it in the garage? If there is a door near the washer,
stuffing up any cracks where daylight shows through may help. A
lightbulb UNDER the washer may help, if you can place it so it won't
melt any plastic, or be sitting in a puddle. Setting washer on a layer
of foam board with plywood over could help too. If you can stand to pay
the electric bill for it, one of those little space heaters with a
blower, blowing hot air under the washer, could thaw things out. Hard to
say without seeing pictures of washer and how supply lines run. Fix
could be trivial, or could be a major job.
In general, unheated garages are lousy places for washers, dryers,
refrigerators, freezers, etc, if you live where it freezes hard. If you
aren't comfortable there, they aren't either.
You should plan on using a laundromat until weather breaks and/or you
get a proper fix done. Turn the supply valves off, disconnect one end
and let them hang in a bucket to drain as they melt. Siphon as much
water out as you can from the tub. Pull the drain hose out of standpipe,
and lay it on the floor in a pan or near a drain, so the ice plug in
there can drain as it melts.
--
aem sends...
tra...@optonline.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
Some important questions and considerations. Where do the water supply
lines run? How cold is it in the actual garage area around the
pipes, washer, and sink? It sounds like it is below freezing since
the trap on the sink froze. If that's the case, my immediate concern
would be that the supply lines are going to freeze and bust and you'll
have a much bigger problem.
And given the above, I doubt a light bulb inside the washer is going
to be the solution. A combination of pipe heat tape, an electric
heater, and some insulation would be more likely to work.
Red Green
news:7vqik5h4e25s9e2f4...@4ax.com:
> On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 16:17:53 -0800 (PST), "ant3...@yahoo.com"
> <ant3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>My washer is frozen again. 1st (last week) it was the rubber hose's
>>to the washer and the shut off valve's. Ran a kerosene heater a while,
>>but could not get watter to fill up.
>>Tonight I did get it to fill up with COLD water, (Hot would not fill)
>
> Strangely, hot freezes sooner than cold. It was explained here once.
Sometimes. It can't be said as a blanket statement.
benick
"Ed Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:XJCdnX3EJbTp8dTW...@giganews.com...
Ditto...Run the heater till the weather warms up or go to the
laundramat...Which ever is easier for ya....Nothing else is gonna work and
you're gonna ruin the washer if you keep trying to run it frozen......I
can't believe you don't have broken pipes yet....On second thought maybe you
do and you will see them when they unthaw...
Tony
First of all you are damn lucky it didn't break anything when it froze.
Second, even with insulation, you need a heat source for the
insulation to do it's job. Just a guess but I might put the 100 watt
light down below the pump area, then insulate the back, especially if
it's open. May not need the insulation if the back is closed. Or get a
little $18 heater at Wal-Mart and make it blow on the back of the
washer. (if the back is metal!)
Jules
> My washer is frozen again.
Urgh. At least it was still frozen when you found it. I had one a couple
of years ago where the water left in the pump/drain had frozen
overnight, expanded and pushed the drain pipe off. Then it had thawed
by morning, so first load dumped water out all over the floor...
mm
wrote:
>On Jan 10, 1:02�am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 16:17:53 -0800 (PST), "ant30...@yahoo.com"
>> <ant30...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> >Should I maybe buy some insulation and cover it with plywood some
>> >how.
>> >This is in the back of a garage at ground level., the apartment is
>> >over the garage.
>>
>> Oh, now you tell me. :)
>
>To OP stated where it was located, but for some reason you felt like
>picking the post apart.
I reread the post. There's nothing wrong with it. Even the line you
quote I end with a smiley.
>Haven't posted here in a while, but I can see you are the same
>dickhead that you have always been here.
>
>BTW, how many analog CRT TVs have you found in the trash after the
>switchover?
I would answer that question if you hadn't insulted me in the line
before it.
And Red is right. I'm sure hot doesn't always freeze faster than
cold. I'll say it differently next time.
Tony
> mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote in
> news:7vqik5h4e25s9e2f4...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 16:17:53 -0800 (PST), "ant3...@yahoo.com"
>> <ant3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> My washer is frozen again. 1st (last week) it was the rubber hose's
>>> to the washer and the shut off valve's. Ran a kerosene heater a while,
>>> but could not get watter to fill up.
>>> Tonight I did get it to fill up with COLD water, (Hot would not fill)
>> Strangely, hot freezes sooner than cold. It was explained here once.
>
> Sometimes. It can't be said as a blanket statement.
Doesn't it involve evaporation that speeds cooling?
Michael B
ant3...@yahoo.com
> On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 22:21:43 -0800 (PST), Ron <BigELil...@msn.com>
Well, Thanks for all the thoughts, I posted some pictures for S&G's,
As I may waite till spring to fix it up,
and go to the Laundermat as mentioned.
No, mm, I think the *HOT* was frozen 1st, (or longer.....) as the
cold would flow into the washer (Cold wash/Cold rinse) but the hot
would not, as in Hot wash/ cold rinse)
You enter back there through sort of an basement side, (one of the
garages was blocked off, and a stairway to up stairs was built, with
sort of an entrance way)..........So there is a door way and a wall
as you can see in the picture. Might want to put a door there, and
close off the "storage" area near the hot water heater. Will need some
type of "door" there too,even if it's just a removeable panel of some
sort.
I see lowes has this polyisocyanurate board in 1 inch and 1/2 inch,
But then I see the rools of insulation
with a much higher R- Value, So I am a little comfused about all that,
But not to worry too much right now.
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productList&N=4294961544&Ne=4294967294&Ntk=i_products&Ntt=polyisocyanurate
Yes I am renting, The Landlord is OK with fixing it, He said He will
pay for the parts and My labor to do it.
We looked at it last year, and He wanted me to get a heater, But
running an heater with out closeing it
in better, and fixing the insulation would kill be in electric, I
would think. (This place is all electric)
But once again I didn't do nothing with it this summer or fall,
and............. BAM!!, ............winter was here, before you know
it.
There was nothing done really since I moved here, been here about 5-6
years.
Anything I usually fix, and just charged for parts, sometimes not even
if it was small, Little stuff I just live with, where if it was like a
husband and wife here, She would want fixed.
I sort of figgure " I don't bother Him, He don't bother
me".............. I pay $300.00 Plus here, and That is not too bad for
around here, as I rented it for the Garage/Basement for my
woodworking.
Oh well, here are the Pictures, derict links @ photobucket.
Thanks, Tony
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc268/mrbreezeet1/Upload%20and%20forget%202/Washer003.jpg
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc268/mrbreezeet1/Upload%20and%20forget%202/Washer004.jpg
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc268/mrbreezeet1/Upload%20and%20forget%202/Washer005.jpg
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc268/mrbreezeet1/Upload%20and%20forget%202/Washer006.jpg
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc268/mrbreezeet1/Upload%20and%20forget%202/Washer008.jpg
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc268/mrbreezeet1/Upload%20and%20forget%202/Washer009.jpg
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc268/mrbreezeet1/Upload%20and%20forget%202/Washer011.jpg
Winter Project (Kitchen) Off E Bay Machinist
Chest
Before Cleaning and Light Striping
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc268/mrbreezeet1/Upload%20and%20forget%202/BeforeCleaningStriping.jpg
After Cleaning and Light Striping
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc268/mrbreezeet1/Upload%20and%20forget%202/AfterCleaningStriping.jpg
Red Green
Possible factors are too numerious. Science is still arguing about it. Just
Google it and read till your fed up.
tra...@optonline.net
> > mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote in
> >news:7vqik5h4e25s9e2f4...@4ax.com:
>
> >> On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 16:17:53 -0800 (PST), "ant30...@yahoo.com"
> >> <ant30...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>> My washer is frozen again. 1st (last week) it was the rubber hose's
> >>> to the washer and the shut off valve's. Ran a kerosene heater a while,
> >>> but could not get watter to fill up.
> >>> Tonight I did get it to fill up with COLD water, (Hot would not fill)
> >> Strangely, hot freezes sooner than cold. It was explained here once.
>
> > Sometimes. It can't be said as a blanket statement.
>
> Doesn't it involve evaporation that speeds cooling?
It's an urban myth that hot water will freeze faster than cold
water. Supposedly if you take a cup of hot water and a cup of cold
water and place them in a freezer, the hot water will freeze faster.
But it's not true. The amount of water that is lost from evaporation
doesn't make enough difference. The cold water freezes first.
In a plumbing system, either pipe could freeze first depending on when
it was last run, differences in exposure, etc.
Tony Hwang
Wonder where you live?
ant3...@yahoo.com
Moundsville WV, just south of Wheeling, If you were talking to me, I
did not quite understand.
Thanks, Tony
mm
wrote:
The description I read was most likely pointed to from here, or maybe
was on a physics newsgroup, and was about inside a pipe, so
evaporation was not a factor.
It was probably years ago when I had a different hard drive, so I
won't be able to find it in my computer. It had something to do with
something that changed when the water was heated, that made it easier
for it to freeze later. I haven't foundd reference to that in the
posts below, but I have barely read them.
Here are some webpages on the subject
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/hot_water.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mpemba_effect
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/422/which-freezes-faster-hot-water-or-cold-water
Straight dope says no but then says yes under some conditions, and
then relies on evaportation to explain those cases.
I have barely read these pages yet, but
I googled on hot water freezes faster than cold if you wnat to
look for more. I'll read them tonight but I wanted to post befroe
this thread rolls off the top of the screen and falls behind the desk.
Ron
> On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 22:21:43 -0800 (PST), Ron <BigELil...@msn.com>
> wrote:
>
> >BTW, how many analog CRT TVs have you found in the trash after the
> >switchover?
>
> I would answer that question if you hadn't insulted me in the line
> before it.
No need to answer, because the answer is none. Unlike your prior
prediction that there would be piles of them in the trash after the
switchover.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
>On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 16:17:53 -0800 (PST), "ant3...@yahoo.com"
><ant3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>My washer is frozen again. 1st (last week) it was the rubber hose's
>>to the washer and the shut off valve's. Ran a kerosene heater a while,
>>but could not get watter to fill up.
>>Tonight I did get it to fill up with COLD water, (Hot would not fill)
>
>Strangely, hot freezes sooner than cold. It was explained here once.
Actually, absolutely not true. You need to cool the water first before
it can freeze.
The "half truth" is based on the fact that water looses more heat ,
faster, when it is hot than when it is cold - but the hot water still
takes longer to reach freezing than the cold water does. Simple
Physics
>
>>but now it won't pump the water out, it just hums. I guess it blows
>>the overload, as it quits humming and I smell slight burning, then if
>
>If you smell burning each time, stop doing this. If it doesnt' pump
>almost immediately, it's not going to pump.
>
>>I turn it on again, it will hum again.
>>I had this last year too, but when It warmed up enough, it finely
>>worked OK.
>>So now the washer is full of water, but wont pump.
>>I think the pump is frozen in the washer and the drain line.
>
>Probably.
You poor suckers that are not used to the cold, and are not prepared
for it, with houses not built to handle it, are sure having a time of
it. Up here it's been about -5F just about every night the last week.
>
>>To give you an Idea, slight drip from laundry sink has filled sink an
>>inch or so, and has frozen up.
>>I have the kerosene heater running next to the dryer, will let run a
>>few hours, any other Ideas, would like to wash for work Monday.
>>Someone said to put a light bulb in the washer, but I was leery now
>>that it is full of water.
Put the bulb inside the CASE of the washer, not the drum
If the water is flowing it has to be pretty darn cold to freeze. When
water mains are being repaired and surface piping is used up here in
the cold, a tap is left running to keep the water flowing and the
pipes don't freeze unless it's down close to zero. If the water is
turned off, the pipes freeze in a jiffy.
>
>Duh.
>
>>The washer sits in front of an outside block wall, there is some type
>>of fiber board on the wall, just down by the washer and dryer only,
>>with insulation behind it, but it is starting to get crappy and
>>falling apart ( the fiber board).
>
>Where is this? The basement? Is the basement heated at all? Can you
>sit down there for a couple hours without a heavy coat on? If it's
>too cold to sit there, give up on trying to use it, until it's warmer
>and it thaws out. Stop making it hum. Perhaps you can warm the whole
>room, with a fan from the nearest heated room. Most of the heat will
>be absorbed by the ice in the washer, and eventually the ice will
>melt. Do your laundry at a laundromat until you can use the washer.
>
>I don't think it's very likely the ice will break the washer, but
>others may say differently.
Ice in the pump can split the pump quite easily. Often as it thaws.
Minimum density of water is at +4C - so that's where it takes up the
most space. If both ends are plugged with ice and the middle thaws, it
CAN split things that survived the freezing without damage.
>
>>Should I maybe buy some insulation and cover it with plywood some
>>how.
>>This is in the back of a garage at ground level., the apartment is
>>over the garage.
>
Put heat in the garage.
mm
wrote:
>On Jan 10, 2:06�pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 22:21:43 -0800 (PST), Ron <BigELil...@msn.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >BTW, how many analog CRT TVs have you found in the trash after the
>> >switchover?
>>
>> I would answer that question if you hadn't insulted me in the line
>> before it.
>
>No need to answer, because the answer is none.
No, it isn't. You're not a psychic any more than you were a prophet.
What is your problem? I don't think you've posted here at all today
except to argue with me. Did I once insult you yourself, or do you
see yourself as a defender of the oppressed. FWIW, Tony doesn't seem
to be mad at me, only you in this thread.
Ron
> On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:40:02 -0800 (PST), Ron <BigELil...@msn.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Jan 10, 2:06 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >> On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 22:21:43 -0800 (PST), Ron <BigELil...@msn.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >BTW, how many analog CRT TVs have you found in the trash after the
> >> >switchover?
>
> >> I would answer that question if you hadn't insulted me in the line
> >> before it.
>
> >No need to answer, because the answer is none.
>
> No, it isn't. You're not a psychic any more than you were a prophet.
I don't need to be a "prophet" to know that THIS didn't happen as YOU
claimed it would.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.home.repair/msg/9da3703075d7da66?hl=en
You also admitted in this very group that you didn't find any. Do I
need to dig that up for you too?
> What is your problem? I don't think you've posted here at all today
> except to argue with me. Did I once insult you
Yeah, you once stuck your nose into an argument between me and an
asshole troll. It had NOTHING to do with you, but for some reason you
felt like playing net cop, telling what language was and wasn't
acceptable here.
mm
wrote:
>On Jan 11, 1:39�am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:40:02 -0800 (PST), Ron <BigELil...@msn.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Jan 10, 2:06 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 22:21:43 -0800 (PST), Ron <BigELil...@msn.com>
>> >> wrote:
>>
>> >> >BTW, how many analog CRT TVs have you found in the trash after the
>> >> >switchover?
>>
>> >> I would answer that question if you hadn't insulted me in the line
>> >> before it.
>>
>> >No need to answer, because the answer is none.
>>
>> No, it isn't. You're not a psychic any more than you were a prophet.
>
>I don't need to be a "prophet" to know that THIS didn't happen as YOU
>claimed it would.
>
>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.home.repair/msg/9da3703075d7da66?hl=en
>
>You also admitted in this very group that you didn't find any. Do I
>need to dig that up for you too?
I thought I had already posted back about this, to keep the record
straight. And that proves I would have answered you if you hadn't
insulted me in this thread.
So why did you bother asking me? If I admitted I had been wrong, what
is wrong with you that you're still carping on this?
But if the answer was none before it isn't none anymore. It has
changed since I last posted. I've found two tv's since then, and have
seen multiple offers of tvs in the freecycle around here. I would
have found more TVs if they hadn't made putting them out for the trash
illegal months ago, (but some time after the digital transition).
>> What is your problem? I don't think you've posted here at all today
>> except to argue with me. Did I once insult you
>
>Yeah, you once stuck your nose into an argument between me and an
>asshole troll. It had NOTHING to do with you,
This is a newsgroup. Everyone reads and everyone can post. Get over
it.
> but for some reason you
>felt like playing net cop, telling what language was and wasn't
>acceptable here.
Oh, you were using foul language? Not surprising. You used some
vulgar word in your first post here. Have you noticed that almost no
one else in this ng does?
About that earlier thread, if you use foul language and the other guy
doesn't, even if you're right and he's wrong, a lot of people will
think you're wrong. That's the lesson you should have learned.
Instead of nursing a grudge for months or years.
Ron
> > but for some reason you
> >felt like playing net cop, telling what language was and wasn't
> >acceptable here.
>
> Oh, you were using foul language? Not surprising. You used some
> vulgar word in your first post here. Have you noticed that almost no
> one else in this ng does?
>
> About that earlier thread, if you use foul language and the other guy
> doesn't, even if you're right and he's wrong, a lot of people will
> think you're wrong. That's the lesson you should have learned.
> Instead of nursing a grudge for months or years.
LOL! You aren't my dad, and you aren't the mod of this group, and you
are waaaaaaaaaaaay too uptight.
If you think "dickhead" is vulgar, then maybe Usenet isn't the place
for you, pops.
Now, go dig some more TVs out of the dumpster.
