60Hz vs 50Hz, 120V vs 100V?
Scott Lehman
AC 50Hz) and want to install a number of US-made appliances (dishwasher,
washer, dryer, garbage disposer, range hood etc.) Naturally, the US
appliances are all rated 120V AC 60Hz. I'm wondering if there will be
any "gotchas."
Personally, I can't think of any reason why the US models won't work OK
in Japan. The motors might run a few rpm slower, and the heating
elements in the dishwasher and dryer might run a tad cooler, but
otherwise....
Most of the appliances I plan to buy are available locally -- at six to
eight times the US price! Since I'm going to be shipping lumber and
furniture from the States anyway, I would prefer to buy the appliances
at US prices and have them shipped over with the other stuff. To give
you an idea of what I'm up against, a garbage disposer that I see
advertised on the Web for $124.95 sells here for close to $800; the
washer/dryer combo I plan to buy will cost me over $4000 if I buy it
locally.
Any advice or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Scott Lehman
Misakimachi, Japan
-G.
Scott Lehman wrote:
--
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It makes the neighbor's dog run to the end of his chain and gag himself.
jack
"Scott Lehman" <leh...@lehmanad.com> wrote in message
news:lehman-AA3CBF....@nwall.odn.ne.jp...
Scott Lehman
expensive; to put individual transformers on each appliance is too
kludgey a workaround to be practical -- and neither solution would help
with the 50Hz/60Hz problem. The fact is, I know several people here in
Japan who do use one or two US appliances in their homes, and they
report no problems. It's just that in my case, there's a bit more at
risk...
Scott
In article <3CB36912...@yahoo.com>, "-G." <anim...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Edwin Pawlowski
> AC 50Hz) and want to install a number of US-made appliances
>
> in Japan.
If you reduce the voltage and the cycles, the motor is not working as
effeciently. It can cause it to heat up and it will not last as long. I
realize you cant personally think of a reason, but I've never seen a motor
label say "works on any voltage and cycles" Must be a reason for that.
>
> Most of the appliances I plan to buy are available locally -- at six to
> eight times the US price!
In spite of what I said above, that would warrant taking some risk.
> Any advice or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Check out some transormers and/or converters. Even if they cost a few
hundred, it will still pay to insall them.
Ed
e...@snet.net
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
Gene S. Berkowitz
leh...@lehmanad.com says...
> I'm about to build a house in Japan (where the household current is 100V
> AC 50Hz) and want to install a number of US-made appliances (dishwasher,
> washer, dryer, garbage disposer, range hood etc.) Naturally, the US
> appliances are all rated 120V AC 60Hz. I'm wondering if there will be
> any "gotchas."
>
> Personally, I can't think of any reason why the US models won't work OK
> in Japan. The motors might run a few rpm slower, and the heating
> elements in the dishwasher and dryer might run a tad cooler, but
> otherwise....
Unless these have electronic (digital) timers, there could be some
interesting side effects, like the dishwasher/dryer running 15%
longer.
Transformers can't change the frequency, and the cost of
a transformer large enough to handle a dryer would cost several times
more than the dryer, and weigh several hundred pounds.
What do you pay per KWH for electricity in Japan?
--Gene
Ron
buck boost transformer, such as a GE 9T51B0110, which is about $340 retail
and weighs about 25 lbs.
http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/products?id=xf-oemqb&type=Product+Informatio
n
Since it would be difficult to change the freq., motors would run 8% slower
and timers would be off by about 8%.
Ron
buck boost transformer, such as a GE 9T51B0110, which is about $340 retail
and weighs about 25 lbs.
http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/products?id=xf-oemqb&type=Product+Informatio
n
Since it would be difficult to change the freq., motors would run 8% slower
and timers would be off by about 8%.
> > I'm about to build a house in Japan (where the household current is 100V
Tony Hwang
Anything which contains motor and transformer will run with less
efficiency and possibly over heat. Others with switching power supplies
won't matter(they have wide range in spec.)
Tony
Tony Hwang
If changing frequency is goal then maybe motor-gen set is proper way.
Run the motor at 100V, 50Hz and Gen. output for 120V, 60Hz.
Tony
Gene S. Berkowitz
ron...@optonline.net says...
> You would find changing the voltage from 100 to 120 easy. You would use a
> buck boost transformer, such as a GE 9T51B0110, which is about $340 retail
> and weighs about 25 lbs.
> http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/products?id=xf-oemqb&type=Product+Informatio
> n
It isn't going to run a US-made 220V dryer, and you have to derate it for
operation at 50Hz.
Anyhow, wouldn't Japan customs have an absolute tizzy over this?
I imagine "personal possessions" are duty-free, but a
container with a ton of still-boxed white goods is going to
have them thumbing the rule book...
--Gene
Scott Lehman
Gene S. Berkowitz <ge...@ma.ultranet.com> wrote:
> It isn't going to run a US-made 220V dryer, and you have to derate it for
> operation at 50Hz.
>
> Anyhow, wouldn't Japan customs have an absolute tizzy over this?
> I imagine "personal possessions" are duty-free, but a
> container with a ton of still-boxed white goods is going to
> have them thumbing the rule book...
>
> --Gene
Keep those comments coming guys. I'm on a dial-up connection so my
response is a little slow, but the info coming in is very instructive.
To answer Gene: Oddly enough, most such shipments pass unscathed. And in
this case, the appliances are to be included in a much larger shipment
of building supplies that will be cleared through customs by a local
customs broker. Although they may hit me with import duties for the
appliances, I figure it will still be cheaper than buying from the local
"authorized distributor."
For the record, I just talked to a guy here in Japan who's got a US
washer and dryer that have been going 2 years without trouble. And -- I
think this may be the definitive answer -- I also talked to a local
electrician who said that as long as I didn't overload any of the
appliances, or expect the timers to be 100% accurate, the worst that
would happen is that they would wear out a little faster than normal. So
I figure I'll just go for it and hope for the best.
Thanks for all the input, everyone!
Scott Lehman
Misakimachi, Japan
Vince A. Patron
You asked for appliances, but I'll give you the whole rundown. I think
the voltage isn't too bad. Many products for 110/120 probably work OK
at 100V. US can have 100V in long lines out in the boonies at high
loads, so I'd imagine good engineers design for this. When I was
designing equipment, we'd design for 90V before our equipment would
begin to falter. This was for industrial radio equipment, but I
suppose household stuff might be designed for 90V or 100V min, but you
really won't have margin, such as droop caused by long wire runs. I
don't know how tight Japan controls their line voltage, either.
The frequency is a bigger problem that you may think. First off,
standard clock radio alarm clocks use the 60 Hz as their time base, so
it will will run slow there. Many actually have a jumper on the
circuit board to select 50 Hz or 60 Hz, but alarm clocks are cheap so
you probably will buy locally, but this could affect the clocks built
into microwave ovens, range/ovens, etc.
Another tough problem one is that transformers are designed for a
minimum frequency. That is, the lower the frequency, the more
inductance they must be designed with (more coils of wire and/or more
iron). If you run a transformer designed for 60 Hz at 50 Hz, it will
heat up significantly. But as I mentioned, they are designed for a
minimum, and most are designed for 50 Hz, so they are labeled "50/60
Hz" because they handle both, but you might run into one for 60 Hz
only. These transformers power electronic stuff, so you'll find them
in anything with electronics, even your washing machine if it has
fancy electronic controls. There's a bit of an issue with the filter
capacitors used with transformer-driven electronics. They probably
engineer it with sufficient margin so that 50 Hz should be OK.
Induction motors are probably your biggest problem. This is outside my
expertise, so hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in. But
I believe they will run slower, due to both the frequency and the
voltage. The reduced voltage isn't so bad (just runs slower) but I
think (again, this is outside my field) that insufficient frequency
may also make these motors heat up more. Induction motors are used in
refrigerators, washing machines and dryers, fan blower motors, etc.
For major appliances, I would seriously, seriously write or call the
manufacturer and check with them, and then double check the tag, and
then operate the equipment noting the performance and keeping an eye
on overheating motors and transformers.
Universal motors are actually DC motors, so things like your blender,
cake mixers, hair dryers, etc. will be OK, albeit a tad slower.
Also, fancier electronics that use a switching power supply should be
able to handle it no problem and are often designed for anything (100V
to 240V, 50/60 Hz).
Anyway, Japan's a neat place. I've been there a couple of times (Tokyo
and Oita). Good luck with the house building!
-Vince
Scott Lehman <leh...@lehmanad.com> wrote in message news:<lehman-AA3CBF....@nwall.odn.ne.jp>...
TakeThisOut
>Anyway, Japan's a neat place. I've been there a couple of times (Tokyo
>and Oita). Good luck with the house building!
>
>-Vince
Just don't blame the plumber when the water heater cabinet explodes!
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TAKETHISOUT budysbackagain(@)THAT TOO a-oh-ell dot com
Igor
Have you considered trying to buy the items in the US that are built for Japan? Maybe all
such appliances are built in Asia, but maybe some are built in Mexico -- or even in the
US. In NY and DC, and maybe certain other areas, there are retailers that cater to
foreigners posted here who want appliances they can use here and then take home with them.
Or, that they simply want to take home -- buy in the US because it is cheaper. I can go
into Washington DC and buy VCRs and clocks and other small appliances designed for almost
any country's standard -- PAL, SECAM, etc. I never tried for large appliances. So, you
might try that approach. The price might be higher than an off-the-shelf appliance for
the US, but if the item is designed to work at 100v, 50hz, it might me worth some premium.
Take a look at the following sites. I only looked briefly, so all I saw was mentions of
220v, but maybe they have stuff for Japan, too.
http://www.astrointl.com/220v.htm
http://www.eastwestintl.com/
http://www.aedinternational.com/
Can you run 200v service in a Japanese residence, just as we for 120 and 240? If so, you
can try to get in the US an appliace built for Europe or Latin America that is built for
220/50hz. Or, if cycles turns out to be a big issue for certain items, you could buy the
European version and then get a 220/100v converter.
BTW, in the 1980s I worked on a US trade dispute with Japan on garbage disposals. Japan
outlawed them because they said that their sewer system could not handle them. (I think
NYC is the same way.) However, all of a sudden, like magic, the Japanese sewer systems
seemed to be able to handle a certain Japanese-made disposal; maybe it had special
sushi-chef blades. Anyway, based on your price quote for a disposal in Japan today, it
seems that they still are protecting their market >15 years later.
Good luck. -- Igor
Jim Reed
voltages than you're dealing with -- you said that U.S. appliances bought
overseas are much more expensive than in the U.S. That holds both ways --
locally-produced appliances overseas are invariably much less expensive in
their home country than if sold in the U.S. as an import. But the local
appliances will, in most cases, be a better match for the local conditions,
including considerations for power useage, size, and local customs.
Transformers should be available to handle individual appliances; I bought
mine in Hong Kong for US$10-50 each, depending on the size. You should be
able to find them in Shinjuku, or in most larger department stores such as
Sogo or Daiyu. I had a few items I wanted to keep with me -- an expensive
electronic organ, for example -- for which I used the transformer. But
you're right, general transformer use is kludgy and a pain, and some
motorized appliances -- vacuum cleaners, in particular -- seem to burn out
pretty fast when operated at 50 Hz instead of 60 Hz.. Some other things to
consider -- lights don't need conversion, they just need different light
bulbs. TVs and radios (esp FM radios) may not work because Japan uses a
different broadcast standard. Japan is metric, so it will be difficult to
have things fit, such as if you have to buy a replacement range. Japanese
electric power is expensive, so most Japanese appliances pay more attention
to conservation than do U.S. appliances, and pay much more attention to
compactness than U.S. products.
Overall, my experience with taking something U.S. overseas and trying to
make it work has had mixed results, and I usually wound up buying the local
product anyway. That's probably particularly true with kitchen appliances
and washer/dryer combinations. In the long run, since you're going to be in
Japan, you're better off to use local-sourced appliances such as range,
refrig, washer and dryer. A big American washer is extremely inefficient
when compared to a Japanese or European front-loader or "squirrel cage"
style washer. Unless you plan on installing a U.S. style hot water tank
(with very high electrical costs), your washer hookup may only have cold
water available. A European or Japanese washer will have a heater coil
built in to bring the water to the proper temperature.
For TV, VCR, DVD, etc., buy a multi-system set that has variable voltage
capabilities. They should be available through some catalogues, including
the AAFES catalog if you have access to military facilities.
For small appliances, (floor fans, hair driers, toasters, etc.) use the
Japanese product, which you may find is so much better than U.S. stuff that
you want to bring it back to the U.S. when you leave. (The floor fan in my
study is a vertical style, bought in HK, used through a small transformer
from the house's 110V to the fan's required 220V). What it amounts to is
that you're not going to be able to completely emulate U.S. conditions, even
inside your purpose-built house, and why would you want to? You're going to
be living in Japan. Best of luck.