breaker box install question

[da...@daisy.com]

a while back I removed a backyard pond. I connected the old wiring from
pond to my shed. Three 10 ga wires - black, white and green. I picked up
a 30 amp breaker box from Menards and it has room for two 15 amp circuit
breakers. I am not an electrition but I am just putting in a couple of
lights, two outlets and one switch which I know how to do. The ground
connection is obvious but I am not sure about black and white wires to the
breaker box.... The circuit breakers have a place to connect a wire at the
bottom. The top end the circuit breaker connects to a terminal (not sure
that is right name) to which another wire will be connected. The black wire
is hot and the white is neutral. Which wire goes where?

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <QxSjz.29561$Cf6....@fx41.iad>, da...@daisy.com says...

If you don't know enough about which of the 3 wires go where, don't mess
with it.

If you are sure the wires you have is for 120 volts ( I do assume you
are in the US) the black wires go to the breakers. Usually a terminal
at the top will connect to all the breakers. The white wire will go to
a terminal strip where you hook up the white wires comming from the
equipment or outlets. The green wire will go to another terminas strip.

In other words you want to make sure the breakers go between the
incomming black wire and the equipment black wire. The white wires feed
through, same as the green.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[da...@daisy.com]

1. I am certain this is 120 volts.

2. There are only two terminals on this breaker box. One terminal is for
ground........ and second terminal is for either the black or the white wire
that the circuit breaker connects to at the top.
the other connection is on the circuit breaker itself.


My only question is about the black and white
wires..........................which goes to the second terminal or does it
matter?

[FrozenNorth]

Get an electrician, I have wired many new circuits, but with your lack
of knowledge this apparent, no help is forthcoming.

--
Froz....

[bob_villain]

The pink (corral or orange) is the ground.
http://waterheatertimer.org/images/120-Volt-circuit-breaker-subpanel.jpg

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

The white goes to the neutral (center) connection and the black goes
to the other two. The box is designed for 240 volt input - black,
white and red with one fuse on each "phase" giving 120 volts on each
fuse.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Make and model number of the panel please. Without it we are ALL
guessing

[Doug Miller]

da...@daisy.com wrote in news:QxSjz.29561$Cf6....@fx41.iad:

> a while back I removed a backyard pond. I connected the old wiring from
> pond to my shed. Three 10 ga wires - black, white and green. I picked up
> a 30 amp breaker box from Menards and it has room for two 15 amp circuit
> breakers.

You can't use this cable for that purpose safely. You don't have enough wires. You need
four wires, black, red, white, and green or bare.

>I am not an electrition

Then you need to hire one. BTW, you'll have better luck finding one, either online or in the
Yellow Pages, with the correct spelling: electrician.

>but I am just putting in a couple of
> lights, two outlets and one switch which I know how to do. The ground
> connection is obvious but I am not sure about black and white wires to the
> breaker box....

You're in over your head on this one. Hire an electrician.

>The circuit breakers have a place to connect a wire at the
> bottom. The top end the circuit breaker connects to a terminal (not sure
> that is right name) to which another wire will be connected. The black wire
> is hot and the white is neutral. Which wire goes where?

Sorry, not going to help you with this. You need an electrician before you kill someone.

[Bill]

Doug Miller wrote:
> da...@daisy.com wrote in news:QxSjz.29561$Cf6....@fx41.iad:
>
>> a while back I removed a backyard pond. I connected the old wiring from
>> pond to my shed. Three 10 ga wires - black, white and green. I picked up
>> a 30 amp breaker box from Menards and it has room for two 15 amp circuit
>> breakers.
> You can't use this cable for that purpose safely.

How about if he only brings 120v to his box, using B-W/C-G. Then he
could create some safe circuits, right (at least on one side/pole)--he
would just need to make sure that he is sending in 120v to his panel and
not 240v, and consistently treat W as common. Of course, my thoughts
should be just considered fodder for argument. For instance, I don't
know what the electrical code says about any of this, etc. blah, blah,
blah.... As everyone knows, it's really hard to resist an electrical
question!

Bill

[Rusty Boldt]

Since you said shed and not workshop, can we assume you only want a
receptacle/outlet and a 15 watt LED bulb?

[John G]

I would forget about a breaker box. The wire is probably 10 gauge to alleviate voltage drop. Just install a junction box and wire your outlets and lights from that. Black is hot, white is neutral, green is ground.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

[TimR]

And, properly label the breaker back in the house. It says pond now (hopefully) and it needs to say shed. What size is that breaker?

[dpb]

On 07/21/2016 6:25 AM, John G wrote:
>
...

>
> I would forget about a breaker box. The wire is probably 10 gauge to
> alleviate voltage drop. Just install a junction box and wire your
> outlets and lights from that. Black is hot, white is neutral, green is
> ground.
>
> John Grabowski
> http://www.MrElectrician.TV

While certainly ok and easiest, it surely might be handy to have a
cutoff in the shed, too...

I wonder about how the wire is run from its previous location of the
garden feature to the shed...

--

[DerbyDad03]

On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 7:25:20 AM UTC-4, John G wrote:

If I am not mistaken, a junction box is fine, but the shed also needs a
main disconnect "nearest the point of entrance" of the circuit. If a
simple light switch is used, it would be nice if it was labeled as the
disconnect so that it is not confused with the actual light switch.

On the other hand, the fact that 10 gauge wire is being used, the OP
should use something that is designed to accept the larger wire size.

[trader_4]

+1

[Paint...@unlisted.moo]

On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 05:22:31 -0700 (PDT), TimR <timot...@aol.com>
wrote:

>> I would forget about a breaker box. The wire is probably 10 gauge
>> to alleviate voltage drop. Just install a junction box and wire your
>> outlets and lights from that. Black is hot, white is neutral, green is ground.
>>
>> John Grabowski
>> http://www.MrElectrician.TV
>
>And, properly label the breaker back in the house. It says pond now (ho
>pefully) and it needs to say shed. What size is that breaker?

That house breaker is likely a 30A. Way too large for any outlets or
lights. It needs to be changed to a 15A or 20A. (20A will require 12
gauge wire to all devices, but the existing 10 gauge is fine).

However, we are not sure if this is 120V or 240V.

I also recommend getting an electrician, or at least finding a friend or
neighbor who knows what they are doing.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <70e8a3a4-9281-498c...@googlegroups.com>,
mrelect...@yahoo.com says...

Well Mr. Electrician that might be advice for those that know what they
are doing, it is clearly not in this case.

As # 10 wire has been ran, this indicates that a 20 to 30 amp breaker is
in the main box. That would need to be changed if smaller wire was ran
to the outlets and lights from just a junction box. I doubt that you
will find any 120 volt outlets that will be wired with # 10 wire.
Number 12 and most likely # 14 wire would be used in his shed.

[trader_4]

If it's a 20A, he could use #12 and be OK.
But to comply with code, he'd also need a disconnect in the shed.
But the real thing here is that given the very limited
understanding, he should get an electrician or at least someone
to help him who knows what they are doing.

[Davej]

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 5:02:28 PM UTC-5, da...@daisy.com wrote:
> a while back I removed a backyard pond. I connected the old
> wiring from pond to my shed. Three 10 ga wires - black, white
> and green. I picked up a 30 amp breaker box from Menards and
> it has room for two 15 amp circuit breakers.

You don't explain where this wire is coming from or how long it
is. It should come from a 15a or 20a breaker on the main panel.

Black is hot. White is neutral. Green is earth ground. That is
the standard color code but you can't trust that is true until
you verify it. A 10 gauge wire at 120V should go through a 15a or
20a breaker. If the wire is long then a 15a breaker may be best.
The black (Hot) wire goes to the breaker. The box may accept two
breakers but you can only use one breaker. Turn off the power
before messing with it. Contact an electrician if you are uncertain.
Use a test light to verify that black is indeed the only hot wire.

[trader_4]

The clueless leading the clueless.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 10:03:58 -0700 (PDT), Davej <gal...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Since it is not going to be 100% to code anyway, there IS a way to
use both breakers in that panel. Using a lug or large wire nut, split
the black to both breakers, and put the white on the neutral as you
normally would. Make sure the #10 wire is fed on the black from a
single 30 amp breaker, with the white on neutral at the main panel so
you are only getting 120 volts, not 240.. Connect the bare or green to
the panel case.

[Doug Miller]

Bill <BILL_...@whoknows.net> wrote in news:nmpt5...@news3.newsguy.com:

> Doug Miller wrote:
>> da...@daisy.com wrote in news:QxSjz.29561$Cf6....@fx41.iad:
>>
>>> a while back I removed a backyard pond. I connected the old wiring from
>>> pond to my shed. Three 10 ga wires - black, white and green. I picked up
>>> a 30 amp breaker box from Menards and it has room for two 15 amp circuit
>>> breakers.
>> You can't use this cable for that purpose safely.
>
> How about if he only brings 120v to his box, using B-W/C-G.

[snip]

That would work, and I thought briefly about explaining how to do that, but reconsidered in light
of the OP's obvious lack of knowledge. I think it best to advise the OP to hire a professional.

[Doug Miller]

cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote in news:95d0pbl9amugttjus...@4ax.com:

And the only reason that's not a fire hazard is that with two 15A breakers on the same leg, he
won't be putting any more than 30A on the neutral -- and it's a 10g wire, so that's at least
marginally safe. I doubt it meets Code.

My advice to the OP still stands: hire a pro.
>

[Jack]

On 7/21/2016 10:50 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> As # 10 wire has been ran, this indicates that a 20 to 30 amp breaker is
> in the main box. That would need to be changed if smaller wire was ran
> to the outlets and lights from just a junction box. I doubt that you
> will find any 120 volt outlets that will be wired with # 10 wire.
> Number 12 and most likely # 14 wire would be used in his shed.
>
>

I wanted to minimize voltage drop so I used #10 to wire my garage receptacles.

[Doug Miller]

Jack <ja...@internet.net> wrote in news:5791690a$0$46652$c3e8da3$e074e489
@news.astraweb.com:

> I wanted to minimize voltage drop so I used #10 to wire my garage receptacles.
>

... which is a Code violation and potential fire hazard, unless the receptacles are rated for use
with AWG 10 conductors (or unless you used AWG 12 pigtails between that and the
receptacles).

The issue is that unless the receptacle was designed for AWG 10 conductors, it's not possible
to properly secure one that large under the terminal screw, and it may work loose, leading to
arcing and fire.

[Rusty Boldt]

Same here! When I use #10 for branch circuits I use back wire
receptacles and larger j-boxes.

[TimR]

I ran #12 when I installed a garbage disposal and would have had a heck of a time getting #10 pulled through those bends. Thicker sizes are a pain for an amateur to handle. Of course pros do it every day.

Here's what I'm wondering. You're in your shed working on a project late at night. You're surrounded by disassembled pieces, some of which you'll never figure out where to put if you disturb your layout, some breakable, some sharp. You power up your saw or other tool and trip the breaker.

Do the lights die too? Are you now in the dark unable to move without tripping over stuff? Or does just the outlet breaker trip?

[dpb]

On 07/22/2016 7:51 AM, TimR wrote:
...

> I ran #12 when I installed a garbage disposal and would have had a
> heck of a time getting #10 pulled through those bends. Thicker sizes
> are a pain for an amateur to handle. Of course pros do it every
> day.

Solid or stranded? I almost always pull stranded for #10 and larger...

> Here's what I'm wondering. You're in your shed working on a project
> late at night. You're surrounded by disassembled pieces, some of
> which you'll never figure out where to put if you disturb your
> layout, some breakable, some sharp. You power up your saw or other
> tool and trip the breaker.
>
> Do the lights die too? Are you now in the dark unable to move
> without tripping over stuff? Or does just the outlet breaker trip?

'Pends on whether you thought ahead when wiring or no... :) Ideally,
there even ought to be two light circuits, too, altho for just a small
shed it's overkill. Having split circuits in a multi-story house for
example means you can at least find your way to the panel in the
basement instead of the whole place being dark as a parallel idea...

--


--

[trader_4]

On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 8:08:45 PM UTC-4, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 10:03:58 -0700 (PDT), Davej <gal...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 5:02:28 PM UTC-5, da...@daisy.com wrote:
> >> a while back I removed a backyard pond. I connected the old
> >> wiring from pond to my shed. Three 10 ga wires - black, white
> >> and green. I picked up a 30 amp breaker box from Menards and
> >> it has room for two 15 amp circuit breakers.
> >
> >You don't explain where this wire is coming from or how long it
> >is. It should come from a 15a or 20a breaker on the main panel.
> >
> >Black is hot. White is neutral. Green is earth ground. That is
> >the standard color code but you can't trust that is true until
> >you verify it. A 10 gauge wire at 120V should go through a 15a or
> >20a breaker. If the wire is long then a 15a breaker may be best.
> >The black (Hot) wire goes to the breaker. The box may accept two
> >breakers but you can only use one breaker. Turn off the power
> >before messing with it. Contact an electrician if you are uncertain.
> >Use a test light to verify that black is indeed the only hot wire.
> Since it is not going to be 100% to code anyway,

Who decided that?

[Scott Lurndal]

dpb <no...@non.net> writes:
>On 07/22/2016 7:51 AM, TimR wrote:
>...
>
>> I ran #12 when I installed a garbage disposal and would have had a
>> heck of a time getting #10 pulled through those bends. Thicker sizes
>> are a pain for an amateur to handle. Of course pros do it every
>> day.
>
>Solid or stranded? I almost always pull stranded for #10 and larger...
>

And a bit of snot always helps...

[TimR]

Solid was cheaper. ! It was my first time running a new circuit, and I learned the hard way.

[bob_villain]

I use these, rated up to #10 copper. You can easily make 6 connections each, without a hassle.
http://tinyurl.com/jrqzy9f

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 07:57:03 -0700 (PDT), bob_villain
<pheeh...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I use these, rated up to #10 copper. You can easily make 6 connections each, without a hassle.
>http://tinyurl.com/jrqzy9f

If you are using the side screw and also the 2 back wire ports, you
have violated the listing. They are only listed for one or the other,
2 wires per terminal max using the back wire or one per screw.

[bob_villain]

Sign me up for the violation...it makes for a compact box without wire-nuts. These are excellent construction-grade (not push-in) connectors.

[dpb]

On 07/22/2016 10:23 AM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
...

> If you are using the side screw and also the 2 back wire ports, you
> have violated the listing. They are only listed for one or the other,
> 2 wires per terminal max using the back wire or one per screw.

Cam you provide a cite for that; I can't find any proscription against
using all the provided terminal points on the device...

--

[gfre...@aol.com]

Look at the instructions that come with the device

[dpb]

I did, what I could find, and saw nothing saying that.

--

[anonymous]

I have the packaging for two 20 amp commercial spec receptacles, one Leviton and one Pass and Seymour.
Neither package specs the wire size or the max number of wires attached to the device.

I'd really appreciate a manufacturers link to info listing max number of wires and max wire size.

Years ago I tried to find this info and gave up. Unless the device says otherwise, if there is an open screw head I'll use it.

[Scott Lurndal]

I have vague recollection that a device wasn't allowed in-circuit
with another device - e.g. a downstream recep may not be wired
in parallel with an upstream recep using the device terminals, but
rather the upstream device must be pigtailed.

[Tekkie®]

John G posted for all of us...

>
> > a while back I removed a backyard pond. I connected the old wiring from
> > pond to my shed. Three 10 ga wires - black, white and green. I picked up
> > a 30 amp breaker box from Menards and it has room for two 15 amp circuit

> > breakers. I am not an electrition but I am just putting in a couple of
> > lights, two outlets and one switch which I know how to do. The ground
> > connection is obvious but I am not sure about black and white wires to the
> > breaker box.... The circuit breakers have a place to connect a wire at the
> > bottom. The top end the circuit breaker connects to a terminal (not sure
> > that is right name) to which another wire will be connected. The black wire
> > is hot and the white is neutral. Which wire goes where?
>

> I would forget about a breaker box. The wire is probably 10 gauge to alleviate voltage drop. Just install a junction box and wire your outlets and lights from that. Black is hot, white is neutral, green is ground.
>
> John Grabowski
> http://www.MrElectrician.TV

+1 As always

--
Tekkie

[dpb]

On 07/22/2016 1:31 PM, anonymous wrote:
...

> I have the packaging for two 20 amp commercial spec receptacles, one
> Leviton and one Pass and Seymour.
> Neither package specs the wire size or the max number of wires attached
> to the device.

...

The above link to this device does list the wire size(s) and type (back
terminal Cu only) but like yours I see no mention of limiting the number
or which connections can be used simultaneously.

I searched for the UL reference numbers to see if they would say
something but had no luck on the score, either.

Certainly on duplex outlets without the rear connections it's very
common to wire outlets in series using the two sets of side screws and
GFCI duplex outlets are constructed specifically with a "line" and
"load" side for the purpose. Simply adding the two additional rear
contacts doesn't seem to me to make sense to prevent their use if
convenient and as you say, I've never seen anything saying "Don't do that!".

So, I think the "one terminal, one wire" rule is Code-compliant but I
don't know how to prove it w/o a lot more effort than I've time or
inclination to invest.

--

[gfre...@aol.com]

From the 2014 U/L white book

Single and duplex receptacles rated 15 and 20 A that are provided with
more than one set of terminals for the connection of line and neutral
conductors
have not been investigated to feed branch-circuit conductors connected
to other outlets on a multi-outlet branch circuit, as follows:
Side-wire (binding screw) terminal with its associated back-wire
(.screw-actuated clamp type) terminal .
Multiple conductors under a single binding screw
Multiple conductors in a single back-wire hole

If these are NOT investigated, the listing does not apply so it is an
unlisted use and a NEC violation.

OTOH you can use a push in and the screw.

I think the issue is that a terminal screw can only have that use. It
can't be used for another purpose, like tensioning the back plate. You
also run into problems that if the plate is all the way open to insert
conductors, the screw may not be long enough to get a wire under it.

Using the 2 sets of terminals as a feed through has been evaluated
and is legal.

[dpb]

On 07/22/2016 3:00 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 13:51:35 -0500, dpb<no...@non.net> wrote:

...

>> So, I think the "one terminal, one wire" rule is Code-compliant but I
>> don't know how to prove it w/o a lot more effort than I've time or
>> inclination to invest.
>
>
> From the 2014 U/L white book
>
> Single and duplex receptacles rated 15 and 20 A that are provided with
> more than one set of terminals for the connection of line and neutral
> conductors
> have not been investigated to feed branch-circuit conductors connected
> to other outlets on a multi-outlet branch circuit, as follows:
> Side-wire (binding screw) terminal with its associated back-wire
> (.screw-actuated clamp type) terminal .
> Multiple conductors under a single binding screw
> Multiple conductors in a single back-wire hole

...

OK, that's useful...

Of the three, only the first isn't clearly a silly thing; I'd think the
first would/should be made more FAR more prominent than it is by the
manufacturers although having more than the four connections for a
single daisy-chain isn't all that common, one could certainly not have
too much trouble in finding places where it would be useful.

I'm surprised it isn't published much more obviously than is -- although
I guess on reflection that just says UL doesn't do the investigation
routinely; doesn't say about any particular device so there's always the
chance (however remote) they had the extra work done...not that one
would expect it.

--

[gfre...@aol.com]

Usually box fill would present a problem long before you filled up all
the holes in a back wire receptacle.

[dpb]

On 07/22/2016 3:39 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
...

> Usually box fill would present a problem long before you filled up all
> the holes in a back wire receptacle.

Only would need a third cable to have the six wires to exceed the two
sets of screws and so use two back-entry locations...w/ a deep box
that's easily within fill limits...likely even be ok on standard, tho
didn't double-check; certainly common number w/ 3- and 4- way switches...

--

[dpb]

Was going to add...I'm still amazed there's nothing in manufacturer's
routine lit (or even any instruction sheets that I was able to find)
that says word one about it if it isn't ok (which, given the UL words
one at least has to wonder about as it would be extra cost to the
manufacturer to get the added cert which you wouldn't think would be
routine...)

--

[bob_villain]

Spec: https://images.tradeservice.com/9ETBOIYK8205G6UU/ATTACHMENTS/DIR100097/PASSEME07915_B20_Q61_S44.pdf

[dpb]

On 07/22/2016 4:27 PM, bob_villain wrote:
...

> Spec: https://images.tradeservice.com/9ETBOIYK8205G6UU/ATTACHMENTS/DIR100097/PASSEME07915_B20_Q61_S44.pdf

Which as noted before doesn't mention any limitation of using any/all
combination of connection points simultaneously...

--

[gfre...@aol.com]

Even using #14, 6 conductors, plus one for the grounds and 2 for the
device makes 18cu/in That is a big single gang box (3x2x3.5)and if you
use #12 you are talking about 20.5 cu/in and that is bigger than any
standard single gang box. The only one I can think of is the 3.5"
masonry box. at 21 cu/in.
A standard 2.5" depth box is not even big enough for 2 #12 cables
unless you have the bump out on the side.

[gfre...@aol.com]

The thing people keep missing is you can accommodate four 2 wire w/g
cables in a standard back wired duplex receptacle without using the
side screws. How many wires do you think you can stuff in a box?

[gfre...@aol.com]

It doesn't say you can either. In fact it makes no mention of using
the screws as terminals at all.

This is summed up well in the beginning of NFPA70 (the NEC)
"90.1(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design
specification or an instruction manual for untrained persons."

[bob_villain]

Each is capable of 4 Hot and 4 Neut. wires from the back...and I have only used double boxes even when one duplex was in it. For the shop stuff.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 17:06:58 -0700 (PDT), bob_villain

Once you are in a 4" box, why not spend the extra couple bucks and put
in the second receptacle?

[bob_villain]

Nosy bugger aren't you...too many other connections made...I decided to put one in when I was only going to have a junction box. Ya happy?

[gfre...@aol.com]

You must be new here ;-)
The AHR way is to tell someone who asks about how to install a light
in their shed that they need a 100 amp panel out there.

[dpb]

On 07/22/2016 6:47 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 17:06:04 -0500, dpb<no...@non.net> wrote:
>
>> On 07/22/2016 4:27 PM, bob_villain wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> Spec: https://images.tradeservice.com/9ETBOIYK8205G6UU/ATTACHMENTS/DIR100097/PASSEME07915_B20_Q61_S44.pdf
>>
>> Which as noted before doesn't mention any limitation of using any/all
>> combination of connection points simultaneously...
>

> It doesn't say you can either.

Precisely.

> In fact it makes no mention of using the screws as terminals at all.

In that case, why are they there? Decoration? It does say what wire
sizes they're qualified for and that they match UL color code and
proudly announces the "Terminal compartments isolated from each
other for positive conductor containment" and spec's they're Tri-drive
screws which pretty much indicates they're expected to be used.

> This is summed up well in the beginning of NFPA70 (the NEC)
> "90.1(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design
> specification or an instruction manual for untrained persons."

Granted, but the manufacturer's datasheet isn't the Code, either...

--

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 00:41:07 -0500, dpb <no...@non.net> wrote:

>On 07/22/2016 6:47 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 17:06:04 -0500, dpb<no...@non.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/22/2016 4:27 PM, bob_villain wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> Spec: https://images.tradeservice.com/9ETBOIYK8205G6UU/ATTACHMENTS/DIR100097/PASSEME07915_B20_Q61_S44.pdf
>>>
>>> Which as noted before doesn't mention any limitation of using any/all
>>> combination of connection points simultaneously...
>>
>
>> It doesn't say you can either.
>
>Precisely.
>
>> In fact it makes no mention of using the screws as terminals at all.
>
>In that case, why are they there? Decoration?

The screws are there to tighten the plate inside the device.
There are 2 mounting screws there too and they are grounded but that
des not mean you can hook a ground wire to them.

> It does say what wire
>sizes they're qualified for and that they match UL color code and
>proudly announces the "Terminal compartments isolated from each
>other for positive conductor containment" and spec's they're Tri-drive
>screws which pretty much indicates they're expected to be used.
>

Tri Drive simply means they accept flat blade and Phillips
screwdrivers along with #1 Robertson bits

>> This is summed up well in the beginning of NFPA70 (the NEC)
>> "90.1(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design
>> specification or an instruction manual for untrained persons."
>
>Granted, but the manufacturer's datasheet isn't the Code, either...

Yes it is "110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment
shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions
included in the listing or labeling."

You still have not told me what sized box you would need to accept 4
cables. (the minimum you would need to use 3 on one terminal, even if
you split the receptacle by breaking off the tab).
If you leave it as a duplex, you can install 8 conductors plus the
ground just using the available holes in the back. That is a count of
11 (22" for #14, 24.75" for #12)

Hey I really do not care. Do whatever you want. You are not in my
patch. Maybe your inspector doesn't care. I was just pointing out the
code.

OUT

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Not sure I'm understanding the whole question here.
These receptacles have 2 screws on each side, joined by a jumper plate
that is removeable (one time only) to convert to a
split" There are 2 holes in the back of the receptacle at each screw
for "back-clamp" wiring that can accept one copper conductor from #10
to #14 AWG.
Those back-clamp conductors are clamped in place by pulling the
clamping plate in, squeazing the wire between the clamping playe and
the statiobary plate in the outlet.

Instead of arguing about whether it is legal to ALSO side-wire to the
screw terminals directly just look at the way it is constructed. Code
does NOT allow 2 wires under one screw BECAUSE the connection of each
wire is dependent on the integrety of the other When one wire deforms
from round over time it effects the pressure on the other wire,
effectively loosening the connection. The back-clamp system is
designed and approved for 2 wires on one screw using the clamp plate.
Addind a wire under the screw head (if it is physivally possible to do
so) changes the "engineering" of the connection, in basically yhe
same wat 2 wires inder one screw affects the connection and is NOT
allowed. I do not have the instructions that came with my outlet any
more but I recall it said for use with the convenient back clamo which
accomosates 2 wires per connection OR the "conventional" connection od
a single wire under the screw.

I'm sure on mine if I had installed 2 #10 conductors in the back it
wouls have been virtually impossible to get anything heavier than
aboue a #18 under the screw head

[bob_villain]

I commend your logic, sir...are you available for a debate team?

[dpb]

On 07/23/2016 1:19 AM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 00:41:07 -0500, dpb<no...@non.net> wrote:

...

>>> In fact it makes no mention of using the screws as terminals at all.
>>
>> In that case, why are they there? Decoration?
>
> The screws are there to tighten the plate inside the device.

...

Ah, so! My bad; was thinking of the other push-in type with just the
internal spring connector in which the screw terminals are independent.
Just a "senior moment", I guess, sorry...

>> Granted, but the manufacturer's datasheet isn't the Code, either...
>
> Yes it is "110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment
> shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions
> included in the listing or labeling."

...

Referencing the Code doesn't make the referencing document the Code... :)

Yes, you're (obviously) supposed to install the device to Code, the
question I had (as well as at least one other poster) was where the
specifics of what had/had not been qualified was documented. But, as
above, that was based on thinking about another device's configuration,
not the specific device in question.

As for box sizes, I really don't know (and didn't go look up...just
seemed like there'd be room for a third cable if one didn't need to have
room for the pigtails -- but fill is something I'm certain I violate
routinely as Code just seems _way_ overkill often from a practical
standpoint of what one needs to put where. "If it fits, it's good" is
pretty much my definition... :)

The farm here isn't in a regulated jurisdiction so don't actually have
to worry about inspections...I've pretty much followed Dad's practices
which have served since REA arrived with no problems ever observed of
excessive heating or such in some 70 year or so now, so doesn't seem to
have been _too_ non-conservative.

I just redid some wiring in the barn where I've begun rearranging for
the woodshop installing a 3ph converter for the planer and removing a
bunch of the old motor starters and so on from the feed mill no longer
using to put its controls where they were. They were all installed in
the late 50s/early 60s and still look as new as far as wire, etc.,
inside the controllers, etc, despite the accumulated grain dust and
other inevitable detritus from such a location over that time...from
which I draw comfort the basic rules followed are adequate albeit
admittedly far closer to 60s/70s era Code than current; it's still
3-wire service, not 4, etc., and that's not going to change in my lifetime.

Again, I wasn't trying to argue, was actually trying to figure out a
limitation reason on using the side terminal screws but as noted was
operating under a wrong assumption which made the conclusion had drawn
erroneous.

--