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OT. Hertz Buys 100,000 Teslas

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Dean Hoffman

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Oct 25, 2021, 11:37:50 AM10/25/21
to

Scott Lurndal

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Oct 25, 2021, 12:32:36 PM10/25/21
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Dean Hoffman <dean...@gmail.com> writes:
><https://electrek.co/2021/10/25/hertz-orders-100000-teslas-the-single-largest-ev-purchase-ever/#disqus_thread>
>
>

Ah, that's why TSLA popped this morning. Might make $1,000/share today.

Dean Hoffman

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Oct 25, 2021, 1:04:38 PM10/25/21
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Good. You can spoil yourself with a fancy supper.

Scott Lurndal

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Oct 25, 2021, 2:07:05 PM10/25/21
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Meant to say that the stock might "reach" 1,000/share today.

The fancy supper was a week ago at the Sardine Factory.

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 25, 2021, 2:45:56 PM10/25/21
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On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 08:37:46 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman
<dean...@gmail.com> wrote:

><https://electrek.co/2021/10/25/hertz-orders-100000-teslas-the-single-largest-ev-purchase-ever/#disqus_thread>
>
>

Wonder what the deals will be like in a year or two when Hertz rolls
over the fleet?

Dean Hoffman

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Oct 25, 2021, 3:12:20 PM10/25/21
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The article didn't say anything about roll over. Won't Hertz be able to hang onto the Teslas
longer than a ICE vehicle?

Bob F

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Oct 25, 2021, 4:52:20 PM10/25/21
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Why would they change their business methods for electric vehicles?

There is certainly no reason to think that electric will last any
longer, or that gasoline cars are near their life's end after a year or 2.

Ed Pawlowski

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Oct 25, 2021, 5:04:14 PM10/25/21
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They already did change their business methods by buying electric
vehicles. They have to put in charging systems and change maintenance
procedures and equipment.

You can be sure they will be selling them at what they feel is the
optimal times and it may or may not differ from ICE cars.

Bob F

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Oct 25, 2021, 5:25:56 PM10/25/21
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You think Tesla will allow Hertz to do their own service?

Scott Lurndal

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Oct 25, 2021, 5:27:31 PM10/25/21
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Bob F <bobn...@gmail.com> writes:
>On 10/25/2021 12:12 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
>> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 1:45:56 PM UTC-5, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>>> On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 08:37:46 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman
>>> <dean...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> <https://electrek.co/2021/10/25/hertz-orders-100000-teslas-the-single-largest-ev-purchase-ever/#disqus_thread>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Wonder what the deals will be like in a year or two when Hertz rolls
>>> over the fleet?
>>
>> The article didn't say anything about roll over. Won't Hertz be able to hang onto the Teslas
>> longer than a ICE vehicle?
>>
>
>Why would they change their business methods for electric vehicles?

Because electric vehicles don't require oil changes, smog tests,
belt changes, plug changes, timing belt changes, radiator fluid
changes, or any of a myriad of other automobile maintenance activities.

That changes the value proposition considerably as well as the
depreciation period.

>
>There is certainly no reason to think that electric will last any
>longer, or that gasoline cars are near their life's end after a year or 2.

There are hundreds of reasons that an electric may last longer, mainly
enumerated in vast reduction of parts related to an internal combustion
engine.

hub...@ccanoemail.ca

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Oct 25, 2021, 5:56:12 PM10/25/21
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On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 21:27:26 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Does the range deteriorate over the first few years ?
Renters will expect ~ new battery range.
Also to be considered are the suspension and cosmetic
wear & tear - rentals are often driven pretty hard -
stretching it to 4-5 years might seem like rent-a-wreck ?
John T.

Scott Lurndal

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Oct 25, 2021, 7:19:52 PM10/25/21
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hub...@ccanoemail.ca writes:
>On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 21:27:26 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>wrote:
>
>>>
>>>Why would they change their business methods for electric vehicles?
>>
>>Because electric vehicles don't require oil changes, smog tests,
>>belt changes, plug changes, timing belt changes, radiator fluid
>>changes, or any of a myriad of other automobile maintenance activities.
>>
>>That changes the value proposition considerably as well as the
>>depreciation period.
>>
>>>
>>>There is certainly no reason to think that electric will last any
>>>longer, or that gasoline cars are near their life's end after a year or 2.
>>
>>There are hundreds of reasons that an electric may last longer, mainly
>>enumerated in vast reduction of parts related to an internal combustion
>>engine.
>
>
>Does the range deteriorate over the first few years ?

10% over 200,000 miles. Not significant.


hub...@ccanoemail.ca

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Oct 25, 2021, 7:54:12 PM10/25/21
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On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 23:19:46 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
That seems quite good !
I was recently looking to replace my riding mower and checked-out
the battery-powered ones - the big complaint on the customer reviews
was the noticable loss of battery life after just the first season.
.. ~ $ 2000. to replace the battery on a Cub Cadet - Pass that.
Bought an Ariens gas zero turn.
John T.

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 25, 2021, 8:10:13 PM10/25/21
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On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 23:19:46 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
When we were looking at electric cars ~8 years seemed to be the cliff.
After that batteries started showing significant decline. I doubt
Hertz would keep a car that long. The majors tend to roll them in the
16 months to 2 years time frame. I wouldn't be surprised if they base
it on maintenance history tho. You are right that an electric may
have a different curve but they still try to maximize resale value
while still squeezing as much juice out of car as they can.
OTOH is the government giving Hertz an incentive that is attractive to
them. They just returned from the dead.

micky

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Oct 25, 2021, 8:13:04 PM10/25/21
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In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 25 Oct 2021 23:19:46 GMT,
That's pretty good. I hope my cell phone does that well.
>

micky

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Oct 25, 2021, 8:14:43 PM10/25/21
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In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 25 Oct 2021 19:55:30 -0400,
hub...@ccanoemail.ca wrote:

>On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 23:19:46 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>wrote:
>
>>hub...@ccanoemail.ca writes:
>>.......
>>>Does the range deteriorate over the first few years ?
>>
>>10% over 200,000 miles. Not significant.
>>
>
> That seems quite good !
>I was recently looking to replace my riding mower and checked-out
>the battery-powered ones - the big complaint on the customer reviews
>was the noticable loss of battery life after just the first season.

That's because people don't use grass filters on their battery caps.

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 25, 2021, 8:46:08 PM10/25/21
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On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 20:14:37 -0400, micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com>
wrote:

>In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 25 Oct 2021 19:55:30 -0400,
>hub...@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 23:19:46 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>hub...@ccanoemail.ca writes:
>>>.......
>>>>Does the range deteriorate over the first few years ?
>>>
>>>10% over 200,000 miles. Not significant.
>>>
>>
>> That seems quite good !
>>I was recently looking to replace my riding mower and checked-out
>>the battery-powered ones - the big complaint on the customer reviews
>>was the noticable loss of battery life after just the first season.
>
>That's because people don't use grass filters on their battery caps.

In 2021 I doubt something like this would use a conventional lead acid
battery with caps.

Ed Pawlowski

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Oct 25, 2021, 9:03:35 PM10/25/21
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Don't know. When you buy 100,000 of an item, things are negotiable.
Would make sense for Hertz to do some of the service. Do you think they
are going to periodically take 100,000 cars to a Tesla service center?
Take it to Tesla for a checkup after every rental? Ten rentals?

I don't make assumptions and neither of us knows the terms of the deal.

danny burstein

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Oct 25, 2021, 9:26:44 PM10/25/21
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In <0tjengl3skq4gopjr...@4ax.com> gfre...@aol.com writes:

[lots snipped]

>>> That seems quite good !
>>>I was recently looking to replace my riding mower and checked-out
>>>the battery-powered ones - the big complaint on the customer reviews
>>>was the noticable loss of battery life after just the first season.
>>
>>That's because people don't use grass filters on their battery caps.

>In 2021 I doubt something like this would use a conventional lead acid
>battery with caps.

I was looking at rechargable, sit down, riding lawn mowers
a couple of years ago. And yes, they're lead acid.

I just checked the current offers and some are Li-ion, but
yes, the lead acid ones are still hanging around.




--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

hub...@ccanoemail.ca

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Oct 25, 2021, 9:53:06 PM10/25/21
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On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 01:26:38 -0000 (UTC), danny burstein
<dan...@panix.com> wrote:

>In <0tjengl3skq4gopjr...@4ax.com> gfre...@aol.com writes:
>
>[lots snipped]
>
>>>> That seems quite good !
>>>>I was recently looking to replace my riding mower and checked-out
>>>>the battery-powered ones - the big complaint on the customer reviews
>>>>was the noticable loss of battery life after just the first season.
>>>
>>>That's because people don't use grass filters on their battery caps.
>
>>In 2021 I doubt something like this would use a conventional lead acid
>>battery with caps.
>
>I was looking at rechargable, sit down, riding lawn mowers
>a couple of years ago. And yes, they're lead acid.
>I just checked the current offers and some are Li-ion, but
>yes, the lead acid ones are still hanging around.


The last lead-acid rider I saw was ~ 20 years ago
and it was far-from-new ..
... they do go back a few years :
https://www.myelec-traks.com/
John T.

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 25, 2021, 11:23:54 PM10/25/21
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Hertz doesn't seem to do much maintenance themselves out here in
flyover land. In the first 2 years of life it is mostly just oil
changes and the normal things they do between rentals like cleaning
and adding fluids.
The 2 Avis cars I bought had 25,000 and 30,000 miles with only a few
oil changes in the log. I bet they did it at an oil change joint.
My neighbor used to be a lot manager at Hertz and they didn't do
anything there but shine them up, top up the fluids and get them ready
to rent again.
The only difference when they get them ready to sell is they smear the
shiny stuff on the tires and reset the entertainment center to factory
(for several hundred bucks)

Frank

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Oct 26, 2021, 9:39:57 AM10/26/21
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I'm reading that Hertz has a fleet of over 600,000 cars.

Also appears that Tesla has the biggest drop in resale value.

Maybe if you want an electric car, a used one would be the best value.
Of course once the battery is shot the car is worthless with no sales value.

Ralph Mowery

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Oct 26, 2021, 10:25:48 AM10/26/21
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In article <BtIdJ.2610$Tr6....@fx47.iad>, e...@snet.xxx says...
>
> Don't know. When you buy 100,000 of an item, things are negotiable.
> Would make sense for Hertz to do some of the service. Do you think they
> are going to periodically take 100,000 cars to a Tesla service center?
> Take it to Tesla for a checkup after every rental? Ten rentals?
>
> I don't make assumptions and neither of us knows the terms of the deal.
>
>

How much service would an electric car need ?

About all that is needed on most gas cars up to 100,000 miles is an oil
change, tires and maybe the brakes . Put some fluid in the windshield
washer tank.

With out a gas engine that seems to leave only the tires, breaks, and
washer fluid. I would think the batteries would be sealed units.

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 26, 2021, 11:51:06 AM10/26/21
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When we were looking you would typically just deduct the price of the
battery but these are not generally a DIY thing so you need to add
labor to that. On a hybrid it seems to be $8k-10k
That is the cliff on the depreciation curve I was talking about. A
Tesla has a much more expensive battery. They are basically a battery
that they built a car around.

Frank

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Oct 26, 2021, 11:54:23 AM10/26/21
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Batteries add a thousand pounds to the weight of the car meaning extra
stress on tires and suspension. I suspect repairs are as high or higher
than normal.

I did not research this but this came up on a hit:

https://provscons.com/teslas-body-damage-repair-cost-and-time-is-insane-it-needs-to-be-fixed-reference/

Body shop owner tells me that electronics in all cars are raising costs
of repair.

Scott Lurndal

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Oct 26, 2021, 1:00:11 PM10/26/21
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Frank <"frank "@frank.net> writes:
>On 10/26/2021 10:25 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
>> In article <BtIdJ.2610$Tr6....@fx47.iad>, e...@snet.xxx says...
>>>
>>> Don't know. When you buy 100,000 of an item, things are negotiable.
>>> Would make sense for Hertz to do some of the service. Do you think they
>>> are going to periodically take 100,000 cars to a Tesla service center?
>>> Take it to Tesla for a checkup after every rental? Ten rentals?
>>>
>>> I don't make assumptions and neither of us knows the terms of the deal.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> How much service would an electric car need ?
>>
>> About all that is needed on most gas cars up to 100,000 miles is an oil
>> change, tires and maybe the brakes . Put some fluid in the windshield
>> washer tank.
>>
>> With out a gas engine that seems to leave only the tires, breaks, and
>> washer fluid. I would think the batteries would be sealed units.
>>
>>
>Batteries add a thousand pounds to the weight of the car meaning extra
>stress on tires and suspension. I suspect repairs are as high or higher
>than normal.

You can suspect whatever you like. Doesn't make it true, nor is blind
speculation useful.

The model 3 pattery pack weighs 1000#. A small block V8 weighs 600#
not counting transmission, add the 400# for the transmission and the
motive machinery weight is basically identical between ICE and Electric,
plus or minus 100# or so depending on whether the model 3 has one or
two electic motors.

>
>I did not research this...

No Shit.

>
>https://provscons.com/teslas-body-damage-repair-cost-and-time-is-insane-it-needs-to-be-fixed-reference/
>

Nice change of subject. Bodywork isn't a standard maintenance
cost.

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 26, 2021, 10:39:52 PM10/26/21
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On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:00:05 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Frank <"frank "@frank.net> writes:
>>On 10/26/2021 10:25 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
>>> In article <BtIdJ.2610$Tr6....@fx47.iad>, e...@snet.xxx says...
>>>>
>>>> Don't know. When you buy 100,000 of an item, things are negotiable.
>>>> Would make sense for Hertz to do some of the service. Do you think they
>>>> are going to periodically take 100,000 cars to a Tesla service center?
>>>> Take it to Tesla for a checkup after every rental? Ten rentals?
>>>>
>>>> I don't make assumptions and neither of us knows the terms of the deal.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> How much service would an electric car need ?
>>>
>>> About all that is needed on most gas cars up to 100,000 miles is an oil
>>> change, tires and maybe the brakes . Put some fluid in the windshield
>>> washer tank.
>>>
>>> With out a gas engine that seems to leave only the tires, breaks, and
>>> washer fluid. I would think the batteries would be sealed units.
>>>
>>>
>>Batteries add a thousand pounds to the weight of the car meaning extra
>>stress on tires and suspension. I suspect repairs are as high or higher
>>than normal.
>
>You can suspect whatever you like. Doesn't make it true, nor is blind
>speculation useful.
>
>The model 3 pattery pack weighs 1000#. A small block V8 weighs 600#
>not counting transmission, add the 400# for the transmission and the
>motive machinery weight is basically identical between ICE and Electric,
>plus or minus 100# or so depending on whether the model 3 has one or
>two electic motors.
>
I agree and the battery is mounted amidships so it may be easier to
balance the weight.
More weight on the drivers helps with that lightning fast
acceleration.
Now, fire, under or behind the passenger compartment, that the FD
doesn't have a clue how to put out. That is another kettle of air
fried fish.

They had a series of stories about how the firemen are trying to learn
how to put out LiON fires on our news.
"Stand back and watch it burn" seems to be the current thinking if the
pack is damaged and/or the disconnect devices fail. Squirting water or
foam on it seems to either be ineffective or even make it worse.
That is not to say a 15 gallon gasoline fire is all that easy to fight
but at least they have experience in controlling that sort of thing.
Either way, body work is not going to be an issue.

trader_4

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Oct 27, 2021, 10:23:10 AM10/27/21
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On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 5:27:31 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Bob F <bobn...@gmail.com> writes:
> >On 10/25/2021 12:12 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> >> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 1:45:56 PM UTC-5, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 08:37:46 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman
> >>> <dean...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> <https://electrek.co/2021/10/25/hertz-orders-100000-teslas-the-single-largest-ev-purchase-ever/#disqus_thread>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Wonder what the deals will be like in a year or two when Hertz rolls
> >>> over the fleet?
> >>
> >> The article didn't say anything about roll over. Won't Hertz be able to hang onto the Teslas
> >> longer than a ICE vehicle?
> >>
> >
> >Why would they change their business methods for electric vehicles?
> Because electric vehicles don't require oil changes, smog tests,
> belt changes, plug changes, timing belt changes, radiator fluid
> changes, or any of a myriad of other automobile maintenance activities.
>

I thought we were talking about Hertz, not Rent-a-Wreck. With the exception
of oil changes, I doubt the fleet cars get to the mileage where any of
those items need to be serviced. Smog tests? IDK about all states,
but here in NJ which is pretty blue and run by hippies, there are no emissions
tests for new cars for the first five years.


> That changes the value proposition considerably as well as the
> depreciation period.

Except that it's not true. Fleets typically sell cars when the reach
60 to 70K miles. When you buy a new car for the first 70K
miles over a few years the only maintenance is oil changes,
brakes, tires, air filters. And even electric cars must have a cabin
air filter, so the car has to go in for that. At that point, what's the
incremental cost of changing the air filter for the engine too?
Not much. Oh, and you forgot the big thing that changes the
value proposition, the free money that the US govt borrows and
puts up to make the cars cost less.



> >
> >There is certainly no reason to think that electric will last any
> >longer, or that gasoline cars are near their life's end after a year or 2.
> There are hundreds of reasons that an electric may last longer, mainly
> enumerated in vast reduction of parts related to an internal combustion
> engine.

They don't have the engine to worry about, but they do have another
big problem, the expensive batteries wear out.


trader_4

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Oct 27, 2021, 10:29:58 AM10/27/21
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IDK what's going on with these cars that are reaching the end of their
battery life. But one option is the salvage yard. Not for the car, but to
go there to get a used battery in better shape from a wreck, like is done
for old cars that need a tranny or engine. A related question that I don't
know the answer to is what shape the rest of an electric car is in by the
time it gets to the battery failure point. With ICE cars, if it has a failing
tranny, you have the issue of whether the engine and the rest of it is
still in good enough shape to make rebuilding or getting a used tranny
worth it. With electric cars, IDK how long the key components, eg
the motors last? Will they still generally be in good condition when it
needs a battery? Or is it that they will be near the end of their service life
too?

trader_4

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Oct 27, 2021, 10:39:56 AM10/27/21
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So, it doesn't matter if bodywork costs three times as much and takes a year?
That doesn't get factored into the costs of an electric vehicle vs ICE cars?
Now, I just took a quick look at Franks post, IDK if it's accurate or not, nor
if it only applies to Tesla. Fundamentally I don't see why body repair work
should be significantly more expensive on an electric vehicle. But those
higher costs, if accurate, are most certainly a cost of ownership. You claim
electrics are lower cost because they don't have engine repair costs. Well, just
like some ICE cars will unexpectedly need a new water pump,
some of them will require body work and so too will some of the electric vehicles.
It's part of the total cost comparisons when you fairly calculate it.

Dean Hoffman

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Oct 27, 2021, 11:27:58 AM10/27/21
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Tesla is apparently going to make cars with different driving ranges.
<https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batteries-in-all-standard-range-cars.html>
Tesla battery supplier, CATL, is building a recycling plant for the batteries. They can recycle something
like 92% of the materials.
<https://electrek.co/2021/10/12/tesla-supplier-catl-announces-5-billion-battery-recycling-facility/>

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 27, 2021, 2:06:48 PM10/27/21
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Avis sold the 2 cars I bought between 25k and 30k miles. They were ~18
months old.
Even if Hertz doubles that on the Teslas, there is a real good chance
the service will be virtually nothing but cleaning and replacing the
windshield washer fluid. They might replace tires but maybe not.
As long as the wear bars aren't showing, they would sell them as is.

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 27, 2021, 2:14:55 PM10/27/21
to
I think electric motors will last the life of the car, thousands of
hours anyway. I would worry more about the control boards and the big
MOSFETs that drive the motors. I bet that is not a cheap card.
As Scott points out, brakes last longer because a lot of it is done
with the motors operating as generators.

Ralph Mowery

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Oct 27, 2021, 2:23:22 PM10/27/21
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In article <ca5jngtao38sm41ud...@4ax.com>,
gfre...@aol.com says...
> think electric motors will last the life of the car, thousands of
> hours anyway. I would worry more about the control boards and the big
> MOSFETs that drive the motors. I bet that is not a cheap card.
> As Scott points out, brakes last longer because a lot of it is done
> with the motors operating as generators.
>
>

Like many things on cars it cost very little for the origional part on
the car,but there is a very large markup for the replacement parts.

Like a copy or replacement key for the keyless to start cars are around
$ 100 . No way are they that much and then a lot just to program them.

trader_4

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Oct 28, 2021, 10:21:23 AM10/28/21
to
The key thing is a good example. You can find BMW keys on Ebay for $15.
I know you can re-sync a key to the vehicle for the entry system with a combination
of turning the ignition on and off while holding buttons of the keys. So, you think
you could buy a key, have a locksmith cut it, then sync it? Wrong. There is some
deeper programming required that syncs it to the vehicle that you can't do.
Turns out even the dealers can't do it. They order a new key from BMW,
BMW cuts it and programs it based on vehicle ID number. And of course they
charge $250. The curious thing is what's going on with those keys on
Ebay? You would think if they are useless they would be getting complaints,
refunded, etc and they would not be on Ebay.

Ralph Mowery

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Oct 28, 2021, 10:33:54 AM10/28/21
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In article <2819f597-ddd6-4637...@googlegroups.com>,
tra...@optonline.net says...
>
> The key thing is a good example. You can find BMW keys on Ebay for $15.
> I know you can re-sync a key to the vehicle for the entry system with a combination
> of turning the ignition on and off while holding buttons of the keys. So, you think
> you could buy a key, have a locksmith cut it, then sync it? Wrong. There is some
> deeper programming required that syncs it to the vehicle that you can't do.
> Turns out even the dealers can't do it. They order a new key from BMW,
> BMW cuts it and programs it based on vehicle ID number. And of course they
> charge $250. The curious thing is what's going on with those keys on
> Ebay? You would think if they are useless they would be getting complaints,
> refunded, etc and they would not be on Ebay.
>
>

That $ 250 is a big rip off. Over $ 200 of profit I bet.

I don't know that much about the workings of the electronic keys but
from what I understand on some if you have a working key you can do the
open the door, use your left foot to activate the right turn signal ,
turn the wipers on low with your mouth thing to program a new key.

However if you do not have a working key it is a dealer thing to program
the keys. I have a locksmith friend and he was telling me a few things
about the keys. Even his price for a 'balnk' smart key is often over $
50.

Frank

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Oct 28, 2021, 10:49:22 AM10/28/21
to
That has me worried as I know gasoline powered cars need oxygen to work
and take it out of the air. In fact the weight of oxygen needed is more
than that of the gasoline.

Electric cars have all that energy packed into the battery and when they
burn do not need oxygen to continue burning.

Ralph Mowery

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Oct 28, 2021, 11:06:18 AM10/28/21
to
In article <sled9d$p4n$1...@dont-email.me>, "frank "@frank.net says...
>
> That has me worried as I know gasoline powered cars need oxygen to work
> and take it out of the air. In fact the weight of oxygen needed is more
> than that of the gasoline.
>
> Electric cars have all that energy packed into the battery and when they
> burn do not need oxygen to continue burning.
>
>

You still have to factor in how much of the oxygen is consumed to make
the battery, dig the chemicals out of the ground, and then where does
the electricity come from . Much oxygen is used to make the wind
generators and solar cells tol recharge the batteries.

Scott Lurndal

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Oct 28, 2021, 11:34:38 AM10/28/21
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Frank <"frank "@frank.net> writes:
>
>Electric cars have all that energy packed into the battery and when they
>burn do not need oxygen to continue burning.

The three legs of combusion are:

- Heat (i.e. a short circuit in the battery)
- Fuel (Lithium et alia)
- Oxidizer (Air)

Remove any one of the three, and you don't get combustion.

So, therefore, they _do_ need oxygen in some form to continue burning.

Note that the electrolyte in Lithium Ion batteries is
usually a lithium salt in a carbonate solvent (newer designs
have a ceramic solid electrolyte, primarily lithium oxide.
Research is showing that replacing the oxide in a solid
electrolyte with sulfer improves battery performance).

Frank

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Oct 28, 2021, 12:14:14 PM10/28/21
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I have nothing against electric cars but I think their use should not be
legislated. Politicians do not have the knowledge to consider all the
factors involved as you mention.

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 28, 2021, 12:33:27 PM10/28/21
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If it is like most cars, there are a lot of locksmiths who can program
those keys but it still isn't cheap.

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 28, 2021, 12:37:44 PM10/28/21
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On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:34:33 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
All that energy (heat) is still there in the battery and when it goes
into thermal runaway it would continue in the vacuum of space.
Spraying water on it is likely to make it worse.

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 28, 2021, 12:41:48 PM10/28/21
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WSJ had an article about this and they pointed out the tax payer is
kicking $1.26 BILLION (30% credit for commercial electric vehicles)
into this deal and makes a Tesla cheaper for Hertz than a Carolla.
Like most of these things, follow the money.

Bob F

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Oct 28, 2021, 12:49:34 PM10/28/21
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That's why I went to ebay.

Frank

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Oct 28, 2021, 12:54:36 PM10/28/21
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That is the kind of legislative nonsense I am opposed to. It is a false
economy and we all pay for it.

Frank

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Oct 28, 2021, 12:56:46 PM10/28/21
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As the batteries get smaller and more efficient that packs more energy
into a small package. When it cuts loose, look out.

Frank

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Oct 28, 2021, 12:57:43 PM10/28/21
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I heard it is cheaper to go to a locksmith than a dealer.

Scott Lurndal

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Oct 28, 2021, 1:38:38 PM10/28/21
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gfre...@aol.com writes:
>On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:34:33 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>wrote:
>

>
>All that energy (heat) is still there in the battery and when it goes
>into thermal runaway it would continue in the vacuum of space.
>Spraying water on it is likely to make it worse.

It would not lead to fire in space, of course, since there is no
oxidizer. And in the context of a LION battery energy and heat
are not synonomous (the anode/cathode convert chemical energy
in the electrolyte into electrical energy).

Spraying water on it in the vacuum of space would be quite
complicated given the absolutely low ambient temperatures.

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 28, 2021, 2:02:57 PM10/28/21
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On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:38:33 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>gfre...@aol.com writes:
>>On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:34:33 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>wrote:
>>
>
>>
>>All that energy (heat) is still there in the battery and when it goes
>>into thermal runaway it would continue in the vacuum of space.
>>Spraying water on it is likely to make it worse.
>
>It would not lead to fire in space, of course, since there is no
>oxidizer. And in the context of a LION battery energy and heat
>are not synonomous (the anode/cathode convert chemical energy
>in the electrolyte into electrical energy).
>

The energy would still be there. It is just semantics about whether
that release of energy is "fire". In the real world there is plenty of
fuel in a car, mostly plastic and it is surrounded by air so when you
have a massive source of heat, you have the 3 elements of fire. It
would take massive amounts of CO2 to displace the air until the
battery is depleted and foam is not that effective.
I didn't make this shit up. The fire departments are still trying to
find a good solution to this but right now it is mostly just stopping
the spread of fire to other things and they just let the car burn out.


Ralph Mowery

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Oct 28, 2021, 2:19:24 PM10/28/21
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In article <teBeJ.3644$dE....@fx03.iad>, sc...@slp53.sl.home says...
>
> It would not lead to fire in space, of course, since there is no
> oxidizer. And in the context of a LION battery energy and heat
> are not synonomous (the anode/cathode convert chemical energy
> in the electrolyte into electrical energy).
>
>

There are many chemical combinations that do not depend on the oxygen in
the air. Just look at all the rockets sent into space, they do not burn
the oxygen from the air. Some chemical combination fires s can not be
put out using water or co2.

I am thinking that phosphorus will even self ignit if put into water.

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 28, 2021, 2:57:22 PM10/28/21
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As will pure lithium but this is a compound and YMMV.

Scott Lurndal

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Oct 28, 2021, 3:06:08 PM10/28/21
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Ralph Mowery <rmow...@charter.net> writes:
>In article <teBeJ.3644$dE....@fx03.iad>, sc...@slp53.sl.home says...
>>
>> It would not lead to fire in space, of course, since there is no
>> oxidizer. And in the context of a LION battery energy and heat
>> are not synonomous (the anode/cathode convert chemical energy
>> in the electrolyte into electrical energy).
>>
>>
>
>There are many chemical combinations that do not depend on the oxygen in
>the air. Just look at all the rockets sent into space, they do not burn
>the oxygen from the air. Some chemical combination fires s can not be
>put out using water or co2.

In all cases, the rockets carry their own oxidizers (LOX or various
nitrogen oxides).

trader_4

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Oct 29, 2021, 8:55:44 AM10/29/21
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BMW is not like most cars:

http://cheaplockandkey.com/blog/save-money-replacing-bmw-keys-by-using-a-locksmith/

"Not only does this process take much longer (BMW), but it also costs you double if not more.
When all is said and done at the dealership, you'll end up with a bill of $500 or more for replacing
your BMW key! There's got to be a better way! In fact, there is a much better way! By working with
a professional locksmith, like Cheap Lock & Key, and you can save yourself hundreds of dollars
and a headache! For about $250-$350, you can have on the spot replacement at your location,
including a new key fob and your immobilizer system reprogrammed. The keys locksmiths use
and keep in-stock are exactly the same as the ones from the dealership."

That $500 BMW price includes towing the car, which isn't necessarily the case.
I could be if you only have one key.

So this locksmith price is actually the same or higher than the dealer, but they do claim to offer
on site, instant service for that price. It is interesting though, because they claim to
be able to do the required cutting and reprogramming of the car system. My understanding
was that the keys are laser cut, programmed to the car by VIN at some BMW central
location and then the dealer did the reprogramming of the car. How locksmiths obtained
the tools to do all that, IDK, but not sure it makes a difference if they wind up being
about the same price anyway. I lost one around the house and am still hoping it shows up.




trader_4

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Oct 29, 2021, 9:00:17 AM10/29/21
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It's the other way around. White phosphorus is kept under water because
if exposed to air it instantly ignites. A high school science teacher decided
to demonstrate that and wound up having to evacuate the class room when
it ran amok and he couldn't put it out. You may be thinking of putting sodium
into water. That releases hydrogen and enough heat to ignite it.

Ralph Mowery

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Oct 29, 2021, 9:54:08 AM10/29/21
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In article <277a94f2-39c7-461b...@googlegroups.com>,
tra...@optonline.net says...
> >
> > I am thinking that phosphorus will even self ignit if put into water.
>
> It's the other way around. White phosphorus is kept under water because
> if exposed to air it instantly ignites. A high school science teacher decided
> to demonstrate that and wound up having to evacuate the class room when
> it ran amok and he couldn't put it out. You may be thinking of putting sodium
> into water. That releases hydrogen and enough heat to ignite it.
>
>

I probably got the chemicals mixed up. I knew one had to be kept under
something like kerosene to keep it safe. Turns out to be sodium that
will ignite in water and it is the phosphorus that goes under water.

Scott Lurndal

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Oct 29, 2021, 11:01:01 AM10/29/21
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For Sodium, the reaction with water is exothermic (produces heat)

2Na(s) + 2H2O yields 2NaOH(aq) + H2(g)

I.e. two molecules of solid sodium plus two water molecules
yield sodium hydroxide (aqueous) and hydrogen gas.

The released hydrogen is ignited by the heat produced by the
reaction, with the oxygen in air as an oxidizer.

heat + fuel + oxidizer = fire.

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 29, 2021, 12:19:29 PM10/29/21
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On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 05:55:41 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
I paid $350 at the dealer for a 2020 Ecosport fob. They threw in an
oil change. When the locksmith finally returned my call almost 2 weeks
later he was half that.

micky

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Apr 1, 2023, 4:20:06 AM4/1/23
to
In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 28 Oct 2021 09:49:29 -0700, Bob F
Yes, it depends on the car, for 2000 and 2005 Toyotas and 2004 Chrysler
Sebrings I was ablt to buy blank keys and blank fobs and program them
using online directions. Very cheap.
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