OT. Hertz Buys 100,000 Teslas

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Dean Hoffman

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Oct 25, 2021, 11:37:50 AM10/25/21
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Scott Lurndal

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Oct 25, 2021, 12:32:36 PM10/25/21
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Dean Hoffman <dean...@gmail.com> writes:
><https://electrek.co/2021/10/25/hertz-orders-100000-teslas-the-single-largest-ev-purchase-ever/#disqus_thread>
>
>

Ah, that's why TSLA popped this morning. Might make $1,000/share today.

Dean Hoffman

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Oct 25, 2021, 1:04:38 PM10/25/21
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Good. You can spoil yourself with a fancy supper.

Scott Lurndal

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Oct 25, 2021, 2:07:05 PM10/25/21
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Meant to say that the stock might "reach" 1,000/share today.

The fancy supper was a week ago at the Sardine Factory.

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 25, 2021, 2:45:56 PM10/25/21
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On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 08:37:46 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman
<dean...@gmail.com> wrote:

><https://electrek.co/2021/10/25/hertz-orders-100000-teslas-the-single-largest-ev-purchase-ever/#disqus_thread>
>
>

Wonder what the deals will be like in a year or two when Hertz rolls
over the fleet?

Dean Hoffman

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Oct 25, 2021, 3:12:20 PM10/25/21
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The article didn't say anything about roll over. Won't Hertz be able to hang onto the Teslas
longer than a ICE vehicle?

Bob F

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Oct 25, 2021, 4:52:20 PM10/25/21
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Why would they change their business methods for electric vehicles?

There is certainly no reason to think that electric will last any
longer, or that gasoline cars are near their life's end after a year or 2.

Ed Pawlowski

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Oct 25, 2021, 5:04:14 PM10/25/21
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They already did change their business methods by buying electric
vehicles. They have to put in charging systems and change maintenance
procedures and equipment.

You can be sure they will be selling them at what they feel is the
optimal times and it may or may not differ from ICE cars.

Bob F

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Oct 25, 2021, 5:25:56 PM10/25/21
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You think Tesla will allow Hertz to do their own service?

Scott Lurndal

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Oct 25, 2021, 5:27:31 PM10/25/21
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Bob F <bobn...@gmail.com> writes:
>On 10/25/2021 12:12 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
>> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 1:45:56 PM UTC-5, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>>> On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 08:37:46 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman
>>> <dean...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> <https://electrek.co/2021/10/25/hertz-orders-100000-teslas-the-single-largest-ev-purchase-ever/#disqus_thread>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Wonder what the deals will be like in a year or two when Hertz rolls
>>> over the fleet?
>>
>> The article didn't say anything about roll over. Won't Hertz be able to hang onto the Teslas
>> longer than a ICE vehicle?
>>
>
>Why would they change their business methods for electric vehicles?

Because electric vehicles don't require oil changes, smog tests,
belt changes, plug changes, timing belt changes, radiator fluid
changes, or any of a myriad of other automobile maintenance activities.

That changes the value proposition considerably as well as the
depreciation period.

>
>There is certainly no reason to think that electric will last any
>longer, or that gasoline cars are near their life's end after a year or 2.

There are hundreds of reasons that an electric may last longer, mainly
enumerated in vast reduction of parts related to an internal combustion
engine.

hub...@ccanoemail.ca

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Oct 25, 2021, 5:56:12 PM10/25/21
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On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 21:27:26 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Does the range deteriorate over the first few years ?
Renters will expect ~ new battery range.
Also to be considered are the suspension and cosmetic
wear & tear - rentals are often driven pretty hard -
stretching it to 4-5 years might seem like rent-a-wreck ?
John T.

Scott Lurndal

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Oct 25, 2021, 7:19:52 PM10/25/21
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hub...@ccanoemail.ca writes:
>On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 21:27:26 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>wrote:
>
>>>
>>>Why would they change their business methods for electric vehicles?
>>
>>Because electric vehicles don't require oil changes, smog tests,
>>belt changes, plug changes, timing belt changes, radiator fluid
>>changes, or any of a myriad of other automobile maintenance activities.
>>
>>That changes the value proposition considerably as well as the
>>depreciation period.
>>
>>>
>>>There is certainly no reason to think that electric will last any
>>>longer, or that gasoline cars are near their life's end after a year or 2.
>>
>>There are hundreds of reasons that an electric may last longer, mainly
>>enumerated in vast reduction of parts related to an internal combustion
>>engine.
>
>
>Does the range deteriorate over the first few years ?

10% over 200,000 miles. Not significant.


hub...@ccanoemail.ca

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Oct 25, 2021, 7:54:12 PM10/25/21
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On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 23:19:46 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
That seems quite good !
I was recently looking to replace my riding mower and checked-out
the battery-powered ones - the big complaint on the customer reviews
was the noticable loss of battery life after just the first season.
.. ~ $ 2000. to replace the battery on a Cub Cadet - Pass that.
Bought an Ariens gas zero turn.
John T.

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 25, 2021, 8:10:13 PM10/25/21
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On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 23:19:46 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
When we were looking at electric cars ~8 years seemed to be the cliff.
After that batteries started showing significant decline. I doubt
Hertz would keep a car that long. The majors tend to roll them in the
16 months to 2 years time frame. I wouldn't be surprised if they base
it on maintenance history tho. You are right that an electric may
have a different curve but they still try to maximize resale value
while still squeezing as much juice out of car as they can.
OTOH is the government giving Hertz an incentive that is attractive to
them. They just returned from the dead.

micky

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Oct 25, 2021, 8:13:04 PM10/25/21
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In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 25 Oct 2021 23:19:46 GMT,
That's pretty good. I hope my cell phone does that well.
>

micky

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Oct 25, 2021, 8:14:43 PM10/25/21
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In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 25 Oct 2021 19:55:30 -0400,
hub...@ccanoemail.ca wrote:

>On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 23:19:46 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>wrote:
>
>>hub...@ccanoemail.ca writes:
>>.......
>>>Does the range deteriorate over the first few years ?
>>
>>10% over 200,000 miles. Not significant.
>>
>
> That seems quite good !
>I was recently looking to replace my riding mower and checked-out
>the battery-powered ones - the big complaint on the customer reviews
>was the noticable loss of battery life after just the first season.

That's because people don't use grass filters on their battery caps.

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 25, 2021, 8:46:08 PM10/25/21
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On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 20:14:37 -0400, micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com>
wrote:

>In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 25 Oct 2021 19:55:30 -0400,
>hub...@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 23:19:46 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>hub...@ccanoemail.ca writes:
>>>.......
>>>>Does the range deteriorate over the first few years ?
>>>
>>>10% over 200,000 miles. Not significant.
>>>
>>
>> That seems quite good !
>>I was recently looking to replace my riding mower and checked-out
>>the battery-powered ones - the big complaint on the customer reviews
>>was the noticable loss of battery life after just the first season.
>
>That's because people don't use grass filters on their battery caps.

In 2021 I doubt something like this would use a conventional lead acid
battery with caps.

Ed Pawlowski

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Oct 25, 2021, 9:03:35 PM10/25/21
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Don't know. When you buy 100,000 of an item, things are negotiable.
Would make sense for Hertz to do some of the service. Do you think they
are going to periodically take 100,000 cars to a Tesla service center?
Take it to Tesla for a checkup after every rental? Ten rentals?

I don't make assumptions and neither of us knows the terms of the deal.

danny burstein

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Oct 25, 2021, 9:26:44 PM10/25/21
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In <0tjengl3skq4gopjr...@4ax.com> gfre...@aol.com writes:

[lots snipped]

>>> That seems quite good !
>>>I was recently looking to replace my riding mower and checked-out
>>>the battery-powered ones - the big complaint on the customer reviews
>>>was the noticable loss of battery life after just the first season.
>>
>>That's because people don't use grass filters on their battery caps.

>In 2021 I doubt something like this would use a conventional lead acid
>battery with caps.

I was looking at rechargable, sit down, riding lawn mowers
a couple of years ago. And yes, they're lead acid.

I just checked the current offers and some are Li-ion, but
yes, the lead acid ones are still hanging around.




--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

hub...@ccanoemail.ca

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Oct 25, 2021, 9:53:06 PM10/25/21
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On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 01:26:38 -0000 (UTC), danny burstein
<dan...@panix.com> wrote:

>In <0tjengl3skq4gopjr...@4ax.com> gfre...@aol.com writes:
>
>[lots snipped]
>
>>>> That seems quite good !
>>>>I was recently looking to replace my riding mower and checked-out
>>>>the battery-powered ones - the big complaint on the customer reviews
>>>>was the noticable loss of battery life after just the first season.
>>>
>>>That's because people don't use grass filters on their battery caps.
>
>>In 2021 I doubt something like this would use a conventional lead acid
>>battery with caps.
>
>I was looking at rechargable, sit down, riding lawn mowers
>a couple of years ago. And yes, they're lead acid.
>I just checked the current offers and some are Li-ion, but
>yes, the lead acid ones are still hanging around.


The last lead-acid rider I saw was ~ 20 years ago
and it was far-from-new ..
... they do go back a few years :
https://www.myelec-traks.com/
John T.

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 25, 2021, 11:23:54 PM10/25/21
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Hertz doesn't seem to do much maintenance themselves out here in
flyover land. In the first 2 years of life it is mostly just oil
changes and the normal things they do between rentals like cleaning
and adding fluids.
The 2 Avis cars I bought had 25,000 and 30,000 miles with only a few
oil changes in the log. I bet they did it at an oil change joint.
My neighbor used to be a lot manager at Hertz and they didn't do
anything there but shine them up, top up the fluids and get them ready
to rent again.
The only difference when they get them ready to sell is they smear the
shiny stuff on the tires and reset the entertainment center to factory
(for several hundred bucks)

Frank

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Oct 26, 2021, 9:39:57 AM10/26/21
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I'm reading that Hertz has a fleet of over 600,000 cars.

Also appears that Tesla has the biggest drop in resale value.

Maybe if you want an electric car, a used one would be the best value.
Of course once the battery is shot the car is worthless with no sales value.

Ralph Mowery

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Oct 26, 2021, 10:25:48 AM10/26/21
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In article <BtIdJ.2610$Tr6....@fx47.iad>, e...@snet.xxx says...
>
> Don't know. When you buy 100,000 of an item, things are negotiable.
> Would make sense for Hertz to do some of the service. Do you think they
> are going to periodically take 100,000 cars to a Tesla service center?
> Take it to Tesla for a checkup after every rental? Ten rentals?
>
> I don't make assumptions and neither of us knows the terms of the deal.
>
>

How much service would an electric car need ?

About all that is needed on most gas cars up to 100,000 miles is an oil
change, tires and maybe the brakes . Put some fluid in the windshield
washer tank.

With out a gas engine that seems to leave only the tires, breaks, and
washer fluid. I would think the batteries would be sealed units.

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 26, 2021, 11:51:06 AM10/26/21
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When we were looking you would typically just deduct the price of the
battery but these are not generally a DIY thing so you need to add
labor to that. On a hybrid it seems to be $8k-10k
That is the cliff on the depreciation curve I was talking about. A
Tesla has a much more expensive battery. They are basically a battery
that they built a car around.

Frank

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Oct 26, 2021, 11:54:23 AM10/26/21
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Batteries add a thousand pounds to the weight of the car meaning extra
stress on tires and suspension. I suspect repairs are as high or higher
than normal.

I did not research this but this came up on a hit:

https://provscons.com/teslas-body-damage-repair-cost-and-time-is-insane-it-needs-to-be-fixed-reference/

Body shop owner tells me that electronics in all cars are raising costs
of repair.

Scott Lurndal

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Oct 26, 2021, 1:00:11 PM10/26/21
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Frank <"frank "@frank.net> writes:
>On 10/26/2021 10:25 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
>> In article <BtIdJ.2610$Tr6....@fx47.iad>, e...@snet.xxx says...
>>>
>>> Don't know. When you buy 100,000 of an item, things are negotiable.
>>> Would make sense for Hertz to do some of the service. Do you think they
>>> are going to periodically take 100,000 cars to a Tesla service center?
>>> Take it to Tesla for a checkup after every rental? Ten rentals?
>>>
>>> I don't make assumptions and neither of us knows the terms of the deal.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> How much service would an electric car need ?
>>
>> About all that is needed on most gas cars up to 100,000 miles is an oil
>> change, tires and maybe the brakes . Put some fluid in the windshield
>> washer tank.
>>
>> With out a gas engine that seems to leave only the tires, breaks, and
>> washer fluid. I would think the batteries would be sealed units.
>>
>>
>Batteries add a thousand pounds to the weight of the car meaning extra
>stress on tires and suspension. I suspect repairs are as high or higher
>than normal.

You can suspect whatever you like. Doesn't make it true, nor is blind
speculation useful.

The model 3 pattery pack weighs 1000#. A small block V8 weighs 600#
not counting transmission, add the 400# for the transmission and the
motive machinery weight is basically identical between ICE and Electric,
plus or minus 100# or so depending on whether the model 3 has one or
two electic motors.

>
>I did not research this...

No Shit.

>
>https://provscons.com/teslas-body-damage-repair-cost-and-time-is-insane-it-needs-to-be-fixed-reference/
>

Nice change of subject. Bodywork isn't a standard maintenance
cost.

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 26, 2021, 10:39:52 PM10/26/21
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On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:00:05 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Frank <"frank "@frank.net> writes:
>>On 10/26/2021 10:25 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
>>> In article <BtIdJ.2610$Tr6....@fx47.iad>, e...@snet.xxx says...
>>>>
>>>> Don't know. When you buy 100,000 of an item, things are negotiable.
>>>> Would make sense for Hertz to do some of the service. Do you think they
>>>> are going to periodically take 100,000 cars to a Tesla service center?
>>>> Take it to Tesla for a checkup after every rental? Ten rentals?
>>>>
>>>> I don't make assumptions and neither of us knows the terms of the deal.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> How much service would an electric car need ?
>>>
>>> About all that is needed on most gas cars up to 100,000 miles is an oil
>>> change, tires and maybe the brakes . Put some fluid in the windshield
>>> washer tank.
>>>
>>> With out a gas engine that seems to leave only the tires, breaks, and
>>> washer fluid. I would think the batteries would be sealed units.
>>>
>>>
>>Batteries add a thousand pounds to the weight of the car meaning extra
>>stress on tires and suspension. I suspect repairs are as high or higher
>>than normal.
>
>You can suspect whatever you like. Doesn't make it true, nor is blind
>speculation useful.
>
>The model 3 pattery pack weighs 1000#. A small block V8 weighs 600#
>not counting transmission, add the 400# for the transmission and the
>motive machinery weight is basically identical between ICE and Electric,
>plus or minus 100# or so depending on whether the model 3 has one or
>two electic motors.
>
I agree and the battery is mounted amidships so it may be easier to
balance the weight.
More weight on the drivers helps with that lightning fast
acceleration.
Now, fire, under or behind the passenger compartment, that the FD
doesn't have a clue how to put out. That is another kettle of air
fried fish.

They had a series of stories about how the firemen are trying to learn
how to put out LiON fires on our news.
"Stand back and watch it burn" seems to be the current thinking if the
pack is damaged and/or the disconnect devices fail. Squirting water or
foam on it seems to either be ineffective or even make it worse.
That is not to say a 15 gallon gasoline fire is all that easy to fight
but at least they have experience in controlling that sort of thing.
Either way, body work is not going to be an issue.

trader_4

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Oct 27, 2021, 10:23:10 AM10/27/21
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On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 5:27:31 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Bob F <bobn...@gmail.com> writes:
> >On 10/25/2021 12:12 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> >> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 1:45:56 PM UTC-5, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 08:37:46 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman
> >>> <dean...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> <https://electrek.co/2021/10/25/hertz-orders-100000-teslas-the-single-largest-ev-purchase-ever/#disqus_thread>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Wonder what the deals will be like in a year or two when Hertz rolls
> >>> over the fleet?
> >>
> >> The article didn't say anything about roll over. Won't Hertz be able to hang onto the Teslas
> >> longer than a ICE vehicle?
> >>
> >
> >Why would they change their business methods for electric vehicles?
> Because electric vehicles don't require oil changes, smog tests,
> belt changes, plug changes, timing belt changes, radiator fluid
> changes, or any of a myriad of other automobile maintenance activities.
>

I thought we were talking about Hertz, not Rent-a-Wreck. With the exception
of oil changes, I doubt the fleet cars get to the mileage where any of
those items need to be serviced. Smog tests? IDK about all states,
but here in NJ which is pretty blue and run by hippies, there are no emissions
tests for new cars for the first five years.


> That changes the value proposition considerably as well as the
> depreciation period.

Except that it's not true. Fleets typically sell cars when the reach
60 to 70K miles. When you buy a new car for the first 70K
miles over a few years the only maintenance is oil changes,
brakes, tires, air filters. And even electric cars must have a cabin
air filter, so the car has to go in for that. At that point, what's the
incremental cost of changing the air filter for the engine too?
Not much. Oh, and you forgot the big thing that changes the
value proposition, the free money that the US govt borrows and
puts up to make the cars cost less.



> >
> >There is certainly no reason to think that electric will last any
> >longer, or that gasoline cars are near their life's end after a year or 2.
> There are hundreds of reasons that an electric may last longer, mainly
> enumerated in vast reduction of parts related to an internal combustion
> engine.

They don't have the engine to worry about, but they do have another
big problem, the expensive batteries wear out.


trader_4

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Oct 27, 2021, 10:29:58 AM10/27/21
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IDK what's going on with these cars that are reaching the end of their
battery life. But one option is the salvage yard. Not for the car, but to
go there to get a used battery in better shape from a wreck, like is done
for old cars that need a tranny or engine. A related question that I don't
know the answer to is what shape the rest of an electric car is in by the
time it gets to the battery failure point. With ICE cars, if it has a failing
tranny, you have the issue of whether the engine and the rest of it is
still in good enough shape to make rebuilding or getting a used tranny
worth it. With electric cars, IDK how long the key components, eg
the motors last? Will they still generally be in good condition when it
needs a battery? Or is it that they will be near the end of their service life
too?

trader_4

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Oct 27, 2021, 10:39:56 AM10/27/21
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So, it doesn't matter if bodywork costs three times as much and takes a year?
That doesn't get factored into the costs of an electric vehicle vs ICE cars?
Now, I just took a quick look at Franks post, IDK if it's accurate or not, nor
if it only applies to Tesla. Fundamentally I don't see why body repair work
should be significantly more expensive on an electric vehicle. But those
higher costs, if accurate, are most certainly a cost of ownership. You claim
electrics are lower cost because they don't have engine repair costs. Well, just
like some ICE cars will unexpectedly need a new water pump,
some of them will require body work and so too will some of the electric vehicles.
It's part of the total cost comparisons when you fairly calculate it.

Dean Hoffman

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Oct 27, 2021, 11:27:58 AM10/27/21
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Tesla is apparently going to make cars with different driving ranges.
<https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batteries-in-all-standard-range-cars.html>
Tesla battery supplier, CATL, is building a recycling plant for the batteries. They can recycle something
like 92% of the materials.
<https://electrek.co/2021/10/12/tesla-supplier-catl-announces-5-billion-battery-recycling-facility/>

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 27, 2021, 2:06:48 PM10/27/21
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Avis sold the 2 cars I bought between 25k and 30k miles. They were ~18
months old.
Even if Hertz doubles that on the Teslas, there is a real good chance
the service will be virtually nothing but cleaning and replacing the
windshield washer fluid. They might replace tires but maybe not.
As long as the wear bars aren't showing, they would sell them as is.

gfre...@aol.com

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Oct 27, 2021, 2:14:55 PM10/27/21