Outlet Boxes: clamps & gromets required?
Josh
residence, fed by 12-2 w/g Romex. I've noticed in Lowes some of the
boxes have clamps built inside to secure the Romex, and some don't.
Are clamps required by NEC?
The other thing I'm wondering about is the knockout holes on the sides
and back of the boxes. Are rubber grommets required for the holes I
run the Romex through?
The Post Quartermaster
"Josh" <joshh...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:6d1b5bd4-efa4-4d98...@s9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
Whether they are required or not, I always use the clamps if they come
with the box. Otherwise I use rubber grommets. Metal rubbing on
plastic usually winds up with the metal winning and with electricity,
the results are often not pretty.
N8N
Clamps are required. The knockout holes require separate clamps. The
reason those holes are used is to allow connection of conduit as well
as Romex and BX type cables. (you simply use a different clamp/
connector for each type of wiring.) If you buy boxes with integral
clamps make sure you get the ones for Romex not BX (they look similar
but are subtly different.)
For Romex, you can also use the little black Arlington buttons instead
of clamps
Romex clamp:
http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/productdetails.aspx?sku=998017976
Arlington button:
http://www.aifittings.com/whnew104.htm
nate
Josh
>
> Arlington button:
>
> http://www.aifittings.com/whnew104.htm
>
> nate
Thanks. The Arlington buttons look pretty nifty, serving as both a
grommet and clamp. Can they be split and added to existing steel
boxes too.....without pulling the Romex back out and gaining access to
the back or side of the outlet box?
N8N
No. They're supposed to be pushed through the hole from the outside,
and I don't see how you would accomplish that without pulling out the
Romex, split or no. There's a flap inside the button similar to the
ones used on plastic old work boxes, to grab the cable - trying to
push the cable through the button in the reverse direction from what
is intended seems doomed to failure.
I don't think you need to worry about having a "grommet" as a properly
installed cable clamp will not allow the cable to move relative to the
box at all, so no possibility of chafing exists. The Arlington button
and the traditional Romex clamp accomplish the same thing but in
different ways. The main advantage of the Arlington button is reduced
installation time.
nate
Felix Oska
If the question is indicative of your your electrical knowledge,
please call an electrician.
RBM
"Josh" <joshh...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:6d1b5bd4-efa4-4d98...@s9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
Depending upon the box type and composition, clamps or connectors may or may
not be required. For metal boxes, I'm a big fan of the Arlington button.
They take up very little space and are easy to use. Be sure to use boxes of
adequate size for the size and amount of cables you plan to use in each box.
mm
<joshh...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>I'm adding a couple of steel outlet boxes and switch boxes in my
>residence, fed by 12-2 w/g Romex. I've noticed in Lowes some of the
>boxes have clamps built inside to secure the Romex, and some don't.
>Are clamps required by NEC?
Probably. I'm not an electrician and I've never had a copy of the NEC,
so I can't say yes, but you should use clamps regardless.
>
>The other thing I'm wondering about is the knockout holes on the sides
>and back of the boxes. Are rubber grommets required for the holes I
>run the Romex through?
You're supposed to use add-on clamps for those knockouts. They not
only hold the romex in place, they fill the rest of the hole, so that
sparking and fire will stay in the box and not spread to the wall.
I've never heard of the use of grommets here and I woudln't consider
using them. They don't fill the hole.
Felix has a point. IF you want to do this yourself, at least read a
couple books on the subject. They have DIY books that deal with
electricity. Some have long chapters. If they're long, maybe 2 or 3
of them would be enough. they have them at the libary and the book
department of Home Depot etc. (If they only have in stock, "How to
illuminate your patio", that will probalby go too fast past the basic
electrical wiring.)
John Grabowski
*Depending on the manufacturer, some button type Romex connectors come from
the factory with a slit in them. I have installed a few of these after the
wire was installed. I used Channellocks to squeeze the button over itself a
little and pushed it into the hole at the same time while also trying not to
damage the cable. A third hand could be useful, but not required. One
trick I learned in the process is to install the button over the individual
conductors and not the outer sheath. Once the button is in place you can
pull the cable with the outer sheath through.
Jon Danniken
> Clamps are required. The knockout holes require separate clamps. The
> reason those holes are used is to allow connection of conduit as well
> as Romex and BX type cables. (you simply use a different clamp/
> connector for each type of wiring.) If you buy boxes with integral
> clamps make sure you get the ones for Romex not BX (they look similar
> but are subtly different.)
>
> For Romex, you can also use the little black Arlington buttons instead
> of clamps
Thanks for the info. What about the little plastic (often blue in color)
outlet boxes? They have rectangular knockouts on the back end; is there a
clamping fixture for them, or does the wire just hang freely?
Jon
The Post Quartermaster
"Jon Danniken" <jonSPAMMEN...@yahSPAMhoo.com> wrote in message
news:i2stu8$oq9$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
better word), as they close back against the cable and hold it. I
absolutely hate plastic boxes.
RBM
"Jon Danniken" <jonSPAMMEN...@yahSPAMhoo.com> wrote in message
news:i2stu8$oq9$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>cable close to the box
RBM
"The Post Quartermaster" <quartermaster...@postfiftyone.org>
wrote in message news:m7udnXNk0vWeY8zR...@giganews.com...
that get completely knocked out.
Jon Danniken
> "Jon Danniken" wrote in message
>
>> Thanks for the info. What about the little plastic (often blue in
>> color) outlet boxes? They have rectangular knockouts on the back
>> end; is there a clamping fixture for them, or does the wire just
>> hang freely?
>>
>> Jon
>>
> You are not supposed to completely remove those flaps (for lack of a
> better word), as they close back against the cable and hold it. I
> absolutely hate plastic boxes.
Aye, I absolutely hate them as well, but they are (to my knowledge) the only
ones available with the flip-out "wings" to install them into a pre-existing
wall (without cutting out a hole larger than the box itself).
Jon
Jon Danniken
Interesting, thanks for that.
Jon
RBM
"Jon Danniken" <jonSPAMMEN...@yahSPAMhoo.com> wrote in message
don't require opening the wall larger than the box. I'm kind of partial to
the old fashioned "madison bars", but clip on wings and other stuff are also
available.
>
Jay-T
news:4c51eb77$0$2874$607e...@cv.net...
I am curious...., why don't plastic boxes come with round knock-outs like
metal boxes have?
Instead of having to deal with the blue plastic bendable flaps, I would much
rather have a plastic box with round knock-out holes, and then use Arlington
buttons to secure the incoming wires.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
As far as I know, the clamps are mandatory, and I've never seen
grommets used in interior domestic wiring.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Lots of steel "rework" boxed also have capability of installing from
the front, through the hole, with expanding "jaws" to hold to the
drywall
RBM
"Jay-T" <J...@abshjker.hjk> wrote in message
news:i2t5l1$2kt$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
You can get larger plastic boxes, like 4" square with knockouts, but I've
never seen them on single gang boxes. I'm not real sure that a button will
hold tight in a plastic box. It may be slightly thicker than steel
>
Josh
>please call an electrician.
Felix, the trouble with Lectricians is them bastards want to be PAID.
What's up with that?
Jon Danniken
> There are a number of box supports available for metal switch boxes
> that don't require opening the wall larger than the box. I'm kind of
> partial to the old fashioned "madison bars", but clip on wings and
> other stuff are also available.
Ah, cool, it helps to know what those things are called. I'll try and see
if I can acquire some locally for the 240 box I'm putting in for my welder.
Jon
Jon Danniken
>
> Lots of steel "rework" boxed also have capability of installing from
> the front, through the hole, with expanding "jaws" to hold to the
> drywall
I don't see stuff like that at my local hardware store. Professionals get
all the good stuff.
Jon
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
I bet they do. Lowes and the BORG certainly do. Perhaps you don't know what
you're looking at? BTW, they're normally called "old work boxes".
Jon Danniken
Well, I've seen the plastic boxes with the wings that flip out and tighten
up against the back of the drywall, and I do know the difference between
old-work and new-work. Just haven't seen any metal boxes with a similar
feature.
Jon
RBM
<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
news:qjl456h4qv8h7tebe...@4ax.com...
RBM
"Jon Danniken" <jonSPAMMEN...@yahSPAMhoo.com> wrote in message
Boxes made for existing walls will have some sort of bracket to prevent the
box from falling into the wall, then you need some other type of device to
prevent the box from falling out of the wall, such as plaster tins=madison
bars=switch box supports. But be careful as things are "normally" called by
different names in different places. Such as cut in gem box = wet wall box
=old work box
>
Stormin Mormon
edges of metal boxes aren't good for wires.
When I replaced my old furnace, I found out that the last guy hadn't
used a romex clamp where the wire comes into my furnace. I'm surprised
and pleased that the metal edge of the furnace hadn't worn through.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"The Post Quartermaster"
<quartermaster...@postfiftyone.org> wrote in message
news:Z92dnbmwdZRbUszR...@giganews.com...
keith
Metal old-wiring boxes are available in every home improvement store
and larger hardware stores I've ever looked for such stuff in.
Instead of the flip-out tabs, they have a metal strip on the side that
deforms out behind the wall as the screw is turned, much like a molly-
bolt.
You can also use the 'E' fingers that slip behind the wall and then
are bent into the box.
N8N
Same here. Those just aren't available at the Big Boxen, and in fact,
even metal old work boxes and Madison hangers are hard to find,
although they do have them (and they are usually on different shelves
from each other, what's up with that?)
nate
N8N
Around here, those are only available at supply houses. But
fortunately at least one of them is open on Saturday mornings.
nate
keith
Really? Have you checked at the BORG?
Doug Miller
>On Jul 30, 8:16=A0am, keith <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Metal old-wiring boxes are available in every home improvement store
>> and larger hardware stores I've ever looked for such stuff in.
>> Instead of the flip-out tabs, they have a metal strip on the side that
>> deforms out behind the wall as the screw is turned, much like a molly-
>> bolt.
>
>Around here, those are only available at supply houses. But
>fortunately at least one of them is open on Saturday mornings.
Bullshit. Judging by your IP address, "around here" appears to be Dallas, TX.
Are there no Lowe's, Home Depot, Menards, or Ace Hardware stores in the Dallas
area?
Doug Miller
>On Jul 29, 11:14=A0pm, "Jon Danniken"
><jonSPAMMENOTdanni...@yahSPAMhoo.com> wrote:
>> cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>>
>> > Lots of steel "rework" boxed also have capability of installing from
>> > the front, through the hole, with expanding "jaws" to hold to the
>> > drywall
>>
>> I don't see stuff like that at my local hardware store. Professionals get
>> all the good stuff.
>Same here. Those just aren't available at the Big Boxen,
Yes, they are. You just haven't found them yet.
http://www.homedepot.
com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xno/R-100197582/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053
http://www.lowes.com/pd_74219-427-506_0_
>and in fact,
>even metal old work boxes and Madison hangers are hard to find,
Oddly enough, I have no trouble finding them.
>although they do have them (and they are usually on different shelves
>from each other, what's up with that?)
Different products are in different places. What's hard to understand about
that?
N8N
I'm actually in northern VA, and we have tons of Home Depots although
there are none of the others convenient to me (there's a Lowe's about
20 miles away.) They do NOT carry anything other than the plastic
boxes, new work boxes, and the traditional old work boxes that are
used with Madison hangers.
nate
N8N
> In article <6067a139-8e8c-44b8-92c6-ab7e957e9...@j9g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, N8N <njna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Jul 29, 11:14=A0pm, "Jon Danniken"
> ><jonSPAMMENOTdanni...@yahSPAMhoo.com> wrote:
> >> cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
> >> > Lots of steel "rework" boxed also have capability of installing from
> >> > the front, through the hole, with expanding "jaws" to hold to the
> >> > drywall
>
> >> I don't see stuff like that at my local hardware store. Professionals get
> >> all the good stuff.
> >Same here. Those just aren't available at the Big Boxen,
>
> Yes, they are. You just haven't found them yet.
>
> http://www.homedepot.
> com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xno/R-100197582/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053
>
> http://www.lowes.com/pd_74219-427-506_0_
Come to the store with me and show me where I can actually purchase
them.
>
> >and in fact,
> >even metal old work boxes and Madison hangers are hard to find,
>
> Oddly enough, I have no trouble finding them.
>
> >although they do have them (and they are usually on different shelves
> >from each other, what's up with that?)
>
> Different products are in different places. What's hard to understand about
> that?
It makes no sense?
Think about it, if one product is worthless without the other and vice
versa, wouldn't it make sense to stock them close to each other?
nate
N8N
> "Josh" <joshhemm...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
>
> news:6d1b5bd4-efa4-4d98...@s9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>
> > I'm adding a couple of steel outlet boxes and switch boxes in my
> > residence, fed by 12-2 w/g Romex. I've noticed in Lowes some of the
> > boxes have clamps built inside to secure the Romex, and some don't.
> > Are clamps required by NEC?
>
> > The other thing I'm wondering about is the knockout holes on the sides
> > and back of the boxes. Are rubber grommets required for the holes I
> > run the Romex through?
>
> Depending upon the box type and composition, clamps or connectors may or may
> not be required. For metal boxes, I'm a big fan of the Arlington button.
> They take up very little space and are easy to use. Be sure to use boxes of
> adequate size for the size and amount of cables you plan to use in each box.
Y'know, that just registered... I think for 12/2 you will need to use
a large box. the standard 2-1/2" switch boxes don't have enough
capacity to accomodate two cables, clamps, and a device by current
code. you'll need whatever the deeper size is.
nate
Smitty Two
Felix Oska <fel...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:56:14 -0700 (PDT), Josh
> <joshh...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> >I'm adding a couple of steel outlet boxes and switch boxes in my
> >residence, fed by 12-2 w/g Romex. I've noticed in Lowes some of the
> >boxes have clamps built inside to secure the Romex, and some don't.
> >Are clamps required by NEC?
> >
> >The other thing I'm wondering about is the knockout holes on the sides
> >and back of the boxes. Are rubber grommets required for the holes I
> >run the Romex through?
>
> If the question is indicative of your your electrical knowledge,
> please call an electrician.
If we chose to treat ignorance by deliberately remaining ignorant, we'd
still be sucking on the bottle and crapping our diapers. Life is about
learning, Felix.
Doug Miller
>On Jul 30, 9:22=A0am, spamb...@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:
>> In article <6067a139-8e8c-44b8-92c6-ab7e957e9...@j9g2000yqn.googlegroups.=>> >On Jul 29, 11:14=3DA0pm, "Jon Danniken"
>> ><jonSPAMMENOTdanni...@yahSPAMhoo.com> wrote:
>> >> cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>>
>> >> > Lots of steel "rework" boxed also have capability of installing from
>> >> > the front, through the hole, with expanding "jaws" to hold to the
>> >> > drywall
>>
>get
>> >> all the good stuff.
>> >Same here. Those just aren't available at the Big Boxen,
>>
>> Yes, they are. You just haven't found them yet.
>>
>> http://www.homedepot.
> com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xno/R-100197582/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053
>>
>> http://www.lowes.com/pd_74219-427-506_0_
>
>Come to the store with me and show me where I can actually purchase
>them.
I don't work there. Talk to the people that do.
>> >and in fact,
>> >even metal old work boxes and Madison hangers are hard to find,
>>
>> Oddly enough, I have no trouble finding them.
>>
>> >although they do have them (and they are usually on different shelves
>> >from each other, what's up with that?)
>>
>> Different products are in different places. What's hard to understand about
>> that?
>
>It makes no sense?
>
>Think about it, if one product is worthless without the other and vice
>versa, wouldn't it make sense to stock them close to each other?
So you expect to find nails on the same aisle as the 2x4s? When you go to the
grocery, you expect to find baking pans right next to the flour, or milk with
the cereal? Do they keep charcoal in the meat case?
DerbyDad03
>
> - Show quoted text -
My Borg sells 2 x 4's with the nails already pounded in. That sure
saves a lot of work.
I just screw them up where I need them and never have to swing a
hammer. Sweet!
N8N
Apples and oranges. They're in the same *section* just three shelves
up and five shelves over, or something. And God help you if you can't
find them and ask an associate where the Madison hangers are, unless
you *like* getting that bovine look of noncomprehension. That's what
I hate the most about Home Depot, really. Whereas once you invest the
half hour or so to figure out where everything is, you know know more
about what a store stocks than the people that work there.
nate
DerbyDad03
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ah, but just think of the feeling you get when you encounter an
employee that actually knows what (s)he's talking about.
We've got 1.5 guys in our HD's plumbing department that know what
they're talking about. (one knows *everything*, the other is pretty
good). The first time I was looking into SharkBites, I luckily found a
guy who knew them inside and out, including sources for connectors
that HD didn't carry. I probably would have spent a lot more money and
effort if it hadn't been him in the aisle that day.
They've also got one guy in flooring that not only could answer my
questions, but came up with some creative solutions to deal with the
foyer floor after I installed a new entry door.
Electrical...well that's a different story. Other than getting them to
cut wire for me, I don't bother asking for help or suggestions.
Jay-T
>>>
>>> Depending upon the box type and composition, clamps or connectors
>>> may or may not be required. For metal boxes, I'm a big fan of the
>>> Arlington button. They take up very little space and are easy to
>>> use. Be sure to use boxes of adequate size for the size and amount
>>> of cables you plan to use in each box.
>>
>> I am curious...., why don't plastic boxes come with round knock-outs
>> like metal boxes have?
>>
>> Instead of having to deal with the blue plastic bendable flaps, I
>> would much rather have a plastic box with round knock-out holes, and
>> then use Arlington buttons to secure the incoming wires.
>
> You can get larger plastic boxes, like 4" square with knockouts, but
> I've never seen them on single gang boxes. I'm not real sure that a
> button will hold tight in a plastic box. It may be slightly thicker
> than steel
That's the part I don't get. I wonder why they don't seem to make plastic
single gang boxes with knockouts instead of those annoying plastic bendable
flaps/tabs. Then either make Arlington buttons that work with them or be
able to use the metal connectors that are used with metal boxes.
Jon Danniken
> (Doug Miller) wrote:
>
>>
>> http://www.lowes.com/pd_74219-427-506_0_
>
> Come to the store with me and show me where I can actually purchase
> them.
I found those boxes in the link at my locally owned Ace this morningm but
only in single gang. As I am putting in a 50A outlet, I need a double gang
box, and they don't have any double gang metal boxes with the screw wings
for old work (and I'll be damned before I put a 50A outlet in a flimsy blue
plastc box).
So, I picked up a metal new work box, and it looks like I'll get to open up
an access panel on the other side of the wall. Poop.
Jon
N8N
you can't take two of the single gang ones and gang them together?
Typically those boxes *are* only sold in single gang, but you can take
'em apart and put 'em back together for 2- or 3-gang applications.
nate
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
On the way home from work I checked at the BORG. They carry two types of
steel old-wiring boxes here.
Nate Nagel
*shrug* so your borgs don't suck as bad as mine. Everything's cheaper
at the supply house anyway so for things electrical I don't bother with
the Borg, unless it's Sunday.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
I wouldn't even know where the supply houses are here and I doubt they're open
anytime outside of my normal work hours. The BORG and Lowes are only about
three miles from my house. For a couple of old-wiring boxes, cost isn't a
priority.
bud--
I don't think an old work box is a particularly good idea for a 50A
receptacle. IMHO the box should be attached to something substantial,
not the wall.
--
bud--
N8N
<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 07:02:44 -0400, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
> >On 07/30/2010 09:04 PM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
Not a big deal for me, supply house is more convenient than all but
one HD, lower prices, competent staff, what's not to like?
nate
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
I've used supply houses for large jobs (different state). They were fine,
though the droids at the desk didn't really seem to want my business. I have
found the staff at HD and Lowes to be quite variable. Mostly indifferent but
some stores have quite competent staff. In VT, many in the electrical
department were electricians, some retired (Ohio HD employees were beyond
useless). Here, it's a mix; most at least want to help.
N8N
possibly true, but I was just trying to address his post which was
that he couldn't find two-gang old work boxes - I don't think that he
will, but that's not really a problem.
I guess it all depends on how often the appliance connected to it is
plugged in and unplugged. I probably would replace it with a new work
box at the next repaint, myself. Or if it were an area that had extra
paint, just go ahead and do it now.
nate
cl...@snyder.on.ca
I've found here the ones who WANT to help are totally incapable and
those who might be capable don't give a rat's ass, - and then there
are those who"know it all" but are wrong, wrong, wrong.
Like the one former phone company employee and licenced electrician
who INSISTED I needed 4 pair (cat 5) wire to wire an extention to a
Nortel Norstar digital phone system, when all the other 23 were wired
with single twisted pair wiring and were working perfectly that way
for over 8 years - - - - - .
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
>On Aug 1, 8:38 am, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote:
I generally use an old-work box and install it right at a stud so I
can screw it to the stud on one side, and let the "ears" hold it top
and bottom. for that kind of application.