Adding neutral/ground bar to Siemens S2020B1100 panel

[TomR]

I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only has
one neutral/ground bar. The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of the
panel.

I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.

The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/general/dlc/data/assets/US/SIILV/SIE_SA_ESPL_Sel_App_Guide.pdf .

This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits. On
page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.

My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left side
and, if so, how do I do that? Thanks.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Apr 25, 10:27 am, "TomR" <T...@tomrljp5.lhd> wrote:
> I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only has
> one neutral/ground bar.  The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of the
> panel.
>
> I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
> left side and, if so, how to do that.
>

> The information about Siemens service panels is located at:http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/general/dlc/data/assets/US/SIILV/S....

>
> This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits.  On
> page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
> circuits and below".  So that explains why the panel that I have only has
> one neutral bar installed.
>
> My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left side
> and, if so, how do I do that?  Thanks.

Is it just that you want a neutral/ground bus on the other
side for convenience or is it that you've run out of terminals?
If it's the latter, the product guide has a ECGB14, which is a ground
bar
that can be installed in that panel. So, one way to do it would
be to add that ground bar, move some of the ground wires
from the existing neutral/ground bus to it, thereby freeing up
other terminals for more neutrals.

If you just want another neutral/ground bus on the other side,
not sure if you can do that and be code compliant.

[TomR]

tra...@optonline.net wrote:
> On Apr 25, 10:27 am, "TomR" <T...@tomrljp5.lhd> wrote:
>> I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it
>> only has
>> one neutral/ground bar. The neutral/ground bar is on the right side
>> of the
>> panel.
>>
>> I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on
>> the
>> left side and, if so, how to do that.
>>
>> The information about Siemens service panels is located
>> at:http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/general/dlc/data/assets/US/SIILV/S....
>>
>> This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20
>> circuits. On
>> page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
>> circuits and below". So that explains why the panel that I have only
>> has
>> one neutral bar installed.
>>
>> My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the
>> left side
>> and, if so, how do I do that? Thanks.

> Is it just that you want a neutral/ground bus on the other
> side for convenience or is it that you've run out of terminals?

It's a little of both. For convenience, I would like to be able to have a
neutral/ground bus on the other side if possible. But, it also looks like I
am going to run out of available terminals on the existing ground/neutral
bar.

> If it's the latter, the product guide has a ECGB14, which is a ground
> bar
> that can be installed in that panel. So, one way to do it would
> be to add that ground bar, move some of the ground wires
> from the existing neutral/ground bus to it, thereby freeing up
> other terminals for more neutrals.

That's a good suggestion, and maybe I'll end up doing that if that becomes
my only option.

> If you just want another neutral/ground bus on the other side,
> not sure if you can do that and be code compliant.

Okay, thanks.

[John Grabowski]

*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. Mount the ground bar. Run a number 8 or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.

[bob haller]

On Apr 25, 4:21 pm, "John Grabowski" <jgrabo...@optonline.net> wrote:
> >I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only
> >has one neutral/ground bar.  The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of
> >the panel.
>
> > I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
> > left side and, if so, how to do that.
>
> > The information about Siemens service panels is located at:

> >http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/general/dlc/data/assets/US/SIILV/S....

>
> > This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits.
> > On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
> > circuits and below".  So that explains why the panel that I have only has
> > one neutral bar installed.
>
> > My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
> > side and, if so, how do I do that?  Thanks.
>
> *Drill and tap two 8/32 holes.  Mount the ground bar.  Run a number 8 or 6
> wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.

if the cabinet is too thin to tap but mounted on plywood like it
should be, just drill holes and use wood screws to mount the ground
bar to the cabinet, then heavy copper between the old and new ground
bars...

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Apr 25, 4:21 pm, "John Grabowski" <jgrabo...@optonline.net> wrote:

> >I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only
> >has one neutral/ground bar.  The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of
> >the panel.
>
> > I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
> > left side and, if so, how to do that.
>
> > The information about Siemens service panels is located at:

> >http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/general/dlc/data/assets/US/SIILV/S....

>
> > This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits.
> > On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
> > circuits and below".  So that explains why the panel that I have only has
> > one neutral bar installed.
>
> > My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
> > side and, if so, how do I do that?  Thanks.
>
> *Drill and tap two 8/32 holes.  Mount the ground bar.  Run a number 8 or 6

> wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... Is that correct? If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral
wires.

Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? That alone might solve the problem?

[RBM]

If the bar is threaded into the panel, it would suffice as a ground bar
only. If as John said, you run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar,
it'll work for both.
You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well

[DD_BobK]

On Apr 25, 4:13 pm, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
wrote:

I believe you can double up ground wires but neutral wires must be one
per screw.

[bob haller]

Why put 2 under one screw if you dont have to? The panel will look far
better if its neat and organized:) thats one wire per screw and
definetely tie the 2 bars together...

[TomR]

"RBM" <r...@noemail.com> wrote in message
news:5179bff6$0$25645$607e...@cv.net...

Thanks. I think that is going to be the plan -- to add a ground bar and, as
John said, run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar so it will work as a
ground and a neutral bar.

And, as Trader4 siad, "the product guide has a ECGB14, which is a ground bar
that can be installed in that panel", so we can use that since it is made
for that panel and it is made to be threaded into the panel.

> You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well.

That's good to know. I did see that the electrician who put the panel in
did put two grounds under one screw is a couple of cases for the circuits
that he installed; but only one neutral wire (by itself) under any screw.

[John Grabowski]

*If you read the label on the Siemens panel, it should tell you how many
ground wires you can get under one screw. Sometimes it is more than two.
Neutrals are one per screw.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Apr 25, 7:44 pm, RBM <r...@noemail.com> wrote:

> You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

But something about that doesn't seem quite right. If you just run
a #6 or #8 wire between the new bar and the old bar, then
you're relying on that wire to potentially carry the max current
rating (100 amps) of the panel when in service, on a regular
basis, as opposed to just a ground fault condition, no?
Which could occur. I would think the conductor between the
two would have to be rated for at least the max current of the
panel, (100 amps).

Isn't there a similar issue also with using an add on "ground" bar
as both a ground bar and neutral? The bar in the Siemens catalog
is listed for use with that panel as a ground bar, but does that
mean that it has the same current rating, etc that a neutral
bar would have? I realize in practice it may actually be the same
bar, but who knows?

[bob haller]

On Apr 26, 7:33 am, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>

well you could run 2 heavy copper lines between the bars....... how
heavy is the neutral line to the existing bar?

[tra...@optonline.net]

> heavy is the neutral line to the existing bar?- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

I think there are two seperate issues/questions here. One is what
minimum things need to be in place from an electrical circuit
theory perspective. And unless I'm missing something, that
says the conductor between the bars better be at least the capacity
of the panel, ie 100 amps.

The other is what is technically allowed by code, how the panel and
bar
are UL listed, tested, etc. For example, it's been debated here
whether you
can add a simple mechanical slide lock-out for a generator to
an existing panel when that slide isn't made by that panel
manufacturer,
hasn't been UL listed for use with that panel, etc. That slide just
sits on
top of the panel, doesn't even have direct electrical involvement. It
just prevents two breakers from being "on" at the same time.
So, thinking along those
lines, we have a bar rated and listed for use with the panel as a
ground bar. The installation instructions only say how to install it
as a ground bar. Is it code compliant to use that for neutrals too?
What's the current rating of that bar? What would an inspector say?

I would think you, being very concerned that anything potentially
not being done fully compliant will come back to bite you in a
lawsuit from a future owner, a denied insurance claim, etc
would agree that there are issues other than what will work
electrically. If he installs it, uses it only for grounds, moves
some
of the existing grounds from the current "neutral/ground bar" over
to it, he can get more neutral connections and I think we all
agree it's 100% code compliant. Using that added ground bar
as a neutral bar, I'm not convinced.

[tra...@optonline.net]

> definetely tie the 2 bars together...- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Well I guess if you have more ground wires than you have
ground terminals, then you "have to". It's either that or go to
all the added trouble of adding another ground bus. And I
don't see it having anything to do with neatness and
organization. You can put two wires into one terminal neatly.
Or you could put two wires into two terminals and make it
a mess. If two are allowed, I would do it.

[John Grabowski]

*The neutral in the main panel is permitted to be smaller than the two hot
wires because it only carries the unbalanced load.

The other is what is technically allowed by code, how the panel and
bar
are UL listed, tested, etc. For example, it's been debated here
whether you
can add a simple mechanical slide lock-out for a generator to
an existing panel when that slide isn't made by that panel
manufacturer,
hasn't been UL listed for use with that panel, etc. That slide just
sits on
top of the panel, doesn't even have direct electrical involvement. It
just prevents two breakers from being "on" at the same time.

*I've never had a problem passing inspection with an interlock kit made by a
third party. I provide a copy of the installation instructions when I
submit the permit application so the inspector knows ahead of time what is
being used and how it is to be installed.

So, thinking along those
lines, we have a bar rated and listed for use with the panel as a
ground bar. The installation instructions only say how to install it
as a ground bar. Is it code compliant to use that for neutrals too?
What's the current rating of that bar? What would an inspector say?

I would think you, being very concerned that anything potentially
not being done fully compliant will come back to bite you in a
lawsuit from a future owner, a denied insurance claim, etc
would agree that there are issues other than what will work
electrically. If he installs it, uses it only for grounds, moves
some
of the existing grounds from the current "neutral/ground bar" over
to it, he can get more neutral connections and I think we all
agree it's 100% code compliant. Using that added ground bar
as a neutral bar, I'm not convinced.

*A phone call to the electrical inspector should resolve that concern.

[bob haller]

> I would think you, being very concerned that anything potentially
> not being done fully compliant will come back to bite you in a
> lawsuit from a future owner, a denied insurance claim, etc
>

you bring up a interesting point.

you sell your home and later something bad happens due to your poor
DIY fix.

Could the new owner sue you? or their insurance company? Is there a
statute of limitations on how long you could be on the hook?

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hal...@aol.com>
wrote:

MORE haller's insurance insanity. Good grief!

[bob haller]

On Apr 27, 6:00 pm, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hall...@aol.com>

it is a legit question....... i see you dont have a real answer...

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 16:24:16 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hal...@aol.com>
wrote:

Your life is run by your phobia of insurance companies, that's
obvious. You really are a sad sack.

[bob haller]

On Apr 27, 7:34 pm, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 16:24:16 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hall...@aol.com>

i have no phobia over insurance companies a buddy of mine from the 70s
is a state farm agent, so i have a inside surce on some stuff.......

I do wonder how long a new owner can come over a old owner if
something bad happens?

say the old owner installed the wrong type of gas line where it cant
be seen, behind drywall.say clear plastic hose.

4 years later the home explodes when the plastic gas line finally
leaks.....

I havent done anything to cause a problem but have seen lots of stupid
DIY repairs......

[DD_BobK]

this hardly seems acceptable...wood screws?

[DD_BobK]

On Apr 26, 9:42 am, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>

+1

[TomR]

<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:62c3e4d6-325e-4b09...@e13g2000yqp.googlegroups.com...

On Apr 25, 7:44 pm, RBM <r...@noemail.com> wrote:
> On 4/25/2013 7:13 PM, trad...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> > On Apr 25, 4:21 pm, "John Grabowski" <jgrabo...@optonline.net> wrote:
> >>> I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it
> >>> only
> >>> has one neutral/ground bar. The neutral/ground bar is on the right
> >>> side of
> >>> the panel.
> >>> I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on
> >>> the
> >>> left side and, if so, how to do that.
> >>> The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
> >>>http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/general/dlc/data/assets/US/SIILV/S....
> >>> This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20
> >>> circuits.
> >>> On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on
> >>> 24
> >>> circuits and below". So that explains why the panel that I have only
> >>> has
> >>> one neutral bar installed.
> >>> My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
> >>> side and, if so, how do I do that? Thanks.

>> > But what he originally asked for was adding a second
>> > "ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. You can add a
>> > ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
>> > has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
>> > But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
>> > meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... Is that correct? If
>> > he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
>> > bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral
>> > wires.

>> > Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
>> > in at least some panels? That alone might solve the problem?

>> If the bar is threaded into the panel, it would suffice as a ground bar
>> only. If as John said, you run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar,
>> it'll work for both.
>> You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well- Hide
>> quoted text -
>>

> But something about that doesn't seem quite right. If you just run
> a #6 or #8 wire between the new bar and the old bar, then
> you're relying on that wire to potentially carry the max current
> rating (100 amps) of the panel when in service, on a regular
> basis, as opposed to just a ground fault condition, no?
> Which could occur. I would think the conductor between the
> two would have to be rated for at least the max current of the
> panel, (100 amps).

> Isn't there a similar issue also with using an add on "ground" bar
> as both a ground bar and neutral? The bar in the Siemens catalog
> is listed for use with that panel as a ground bar, but does that
> mean that it has the same current rating, etc that a neutral
> bar would have? I realize in practice it may actually be the same
> bar, but who knows?

I think that is an interesting question, and I would like to be able to
figure out the correct answer to that one. Unfortunately, the Siemens panel
that I have only has a neutral bar on one side since it has less than 30
circuits (30 and above have two neutral bars -- one on each side).

I called Siemens technical support on Friday afternoon shortly before 5 PM.
I explained that I want to be able to add a second neutral bar to my
20-circuit Siemens panel and asked if there is a way to do that. I also
explained the option/idea above of adding a ground bar and connecting that
to the neutral bar with an #6 or #8 wire.

The call-taker entered my question into their system and created an email
"ticket number", and then said that a technical representative will get back
to me on Monday. I'll pass on whatever I hear back from them.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 20:00:52 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hal...@aol.com>
wrote:

>On Apr 27, 7:34�pm, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>> On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 16:24:16 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hall...@aol.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Apr 27, 6:00�pm, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hall...@aol.com>
>> >> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> I would think you, being very concerned that anything potentially
>> >> >> not being done fully compliant will come back to bite you in a
>> >> >> lawsuit from a future owner, a denied insurance claim, etc
>>
>> >> >you bring up a interesting point.
>>
>> >> >you sell your home and later something bad happens due to your poor
>> >> >DIY fix.
>>
>> >> >Could the new owner sue you? or their insurance company? Is there a
>> >> >statute of limitations on how long you could be on the hook?
>>
>> >> MORE haller's insurance insanity. �Good grief!
>>
>> >it is a legit question....... i see you dont have a real answer...
>>
>> Your life is run by your phobia of insurance companies, that's
>> obvious. �You really are a sad sack.
>
>i have no phobia over insurance companies a buddy of mine from the 70s
>is a state farm agent, so i have a inside surce on some stuff.......

Bullshit. You're constantly worrying about insurance and telling
others they can't sneeze without having their insurance canceled, or
worse.

>I do wonder how long a new owner can come over a old owner if
>something bad happens?

Idiot.

>say the old owner installed the wrong type of gas line where it cant
>be seen, behind drywall.say clear plastic hose.

Yeah, that's what everyone has been talking about. What a moron.

>4 years later the home explodes when the plastic gas line finally
>leaks.....
>
>I havent done anything to cause a problem but have seen lots of stupid
>DIY repairs......

I'm sure you haven't done jack, or you'd be cowering in the corner
waiting to be sued.

[bob haller]

On Apr 27, 11:48 pm, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 20:00:52 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hall...@aol.com>

my insurance issues.........

Its near impossible to get homeowners insurance on a home with knob
and tube.......

now you can deny that all you want but it doesnt change reality

homeowners insurance these days often send out a inspector before
writing a new policy......

they look for trash under a porch, lack of railings, bad roofs, fuse
boxes, unsafe sidewalks...... all of these and more will have to be
corrected before getting insurance....

I agree with these rules, since everyone wants low preminms, and all
of those can and do boost losses. it might be possible to get a
policy with known hazards, but it might boost premiums
significantly.....

incidently a customer of mine had sidewalks that were uneven. the
slabs were at different levels:( the customer was a public school. A
student got ill and grandpa was called to take the kid home.

grandpa tripped on the uneven sidewalk and broke his hip. within 2
months he died, cause, the fall.

the school had to pay all the medical bills, pain and suffering, etc
etc. last i heard the settlement offer to grandpas family was half a
million dollars.... paid by the schools liability carrier.

the district replaced all the sidewalks at all the buildings and
repaved parking lots etc. the insurance company required a risk
inspection and repair of all possible hazards to keep their coverage.

now what really caused the accident? the school board insisted on a
budget cut on building maintence to save money....

the board members who voted for that cut were all gone, replaced or
voted out.

sadly and for practical $ reasons there are individuals doing that
today. save money by no maintence...

thats why insurance now inspects homes. with the stormy weather
probably from global warming entire citys are being destroyed.
insurance cant prevent that but can save money on preventable losses

[tra...@optonline.net]

But what happens if the unbalanced load happens to be larger
than the conductor? Theoretically, the unbalanced load could
be 100 amps. I agree that is very unlikely, but statistically, it's
possible. Let's say you had some house where 8 resistance
heaters are used. They could just happen to put them into
outlets that are on the same leg..... 12A * 8 = 96A.

Here's another point. An add-on ground bar is designed to be
attached via screws to the panel metal. If you use one of those as
intended, for a ground bus, then under normal conditions, no
current is ever flowing in the panel metal, right? You'd only
have current flow throw the panel itself if there was a ground
fault of some kind. That's how it works with any metal box,
right?

But if you use that add-on ground bar as a neutral bar, then
you do have at least part of the unbalanced current flowing
through the panel metal all the time. Even with a wire connected
between that neutral bar and the other neutral bar, the current
will split with some of it going via the wire, some of it going
via the panel metal. That doesn't seem right to me. I would
think the right way to do it would be for that additional neutral
bar to be installed insulated from the panel so that all the
current has to flow via the wires and not through the panel
metal.

Not saying this is really unsafe if it's done the way you guys
are saying. Just that it seems odd to me that the code is
OK with using the panel metal case as a current carrying
conductor. I can't think of another instance where that is
allowed.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Apr 27, 7:24 pm, bob haller <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Apr 27, 6:00 pm, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hall...@aol.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > >> I would think you, being very concerned that anything potentially
> > >> not being done fully compliant will come back to bite you in a
> > >> lawsuit from a future owner, a denied insurance claim, etc
>
> > >you bring up a interesting point.
>
> > >you sell your home and later something bad happens due to your poor
> > >DIY fix.
>
> > >Could the new owner sue you?

Of course they could. Anyone can sue anyone for just about
anything. Whether they have a real case, can they prove it,
will they win, how much is it going to cost them in legal fees
to find out, that's an entirely different matter.

If you want to sue because the kitchen tile floor is uneven and it
was clearly uneven when you bought the place, walked
through it, had the opportunity to inspect it, etc, then I
don't see how in any rational court of law you'd win. Of
course if you were selling the place, you wouldn't have
that problem because you'd tell the buyer
that the floor doesn't look quite right to you, they'd say "Gee,
you're
right, we want $4K off for a new one." And you'd both
be happy.

If you find out the foundation for a room that was added on
DIY is sinking because it was built on marshmallows instead
of footers, that it was done by the seller, no building permit,
they didn't disclose it, etc, then you probably have a decent case.




>or their insurance company?

Sue their insurance company for a defect on a house they
bought? Per the above, sure they could. But on what basis
could they ever win? What did their insurance company have
to do with some house defect that they later find?

> Is there a
> > >statute of limitations on how long you could be on the hook?

I believe the last time you brought up the issue of buyers
coming back to sue a seller for anything and everything that
wasn't disclosed, I
provided a link to the PA real estate disclosure law. Did you read
it?
As I recall, it said that buyers have 2 years to bring a suit.
It also said that just because some housing component, say
a roof or septic system is at, near or beyond it's normal expected
life,
that doesn't mean it's a material defect that has to be disclosed,
provided that component is still functioning OK.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 05:29:44 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hal...@aol.com>
wrote:

Are all in your tiny little head.

[RBM]

You are correct. A # 6 copper is all that is required to carry the full
neutral load of a 100 amp service, so considering that this is a
supplemental neutral bar, it's never going to carry close to the full
amount.

To be used as a secondary neutral bar as opposed to a ground bar, it
must be connected to the original bar by something more substantial that
the steel of the cabinet

[RBM]

Either you live in an "alternate universe", or these insurance practices
only occur when they go to your house

[bob haller]

On Apr 28, 8:49 am, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
wrote:

well the existing bar is designed to carry current, and since its
connected and actually bonded to the cabinet the cabinet would carry
some current

[tra...@optonline.net]

> some current- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

No it would not, because the panel metal is not in the conductive
path of the current. With the existing neutral bar, current flows
from
the neutral on each circuit into the neutral bar and to the service
neutral which is directly connected to the existing neutral bar.
There is no alternate route in the panel metal for current to go.

Now let's say you add a ground bar on the other side of the
panel, connect it back to the existing neutral/ground bar, and
use it as a neutral. In that case you have two paths for current
from that additional neutral to go to get back to the service
neutral. One path is via the wire connecting the two. The other
is via the panel metal. That second route didn't exist until
you created it.

Again, not saying this is the worst thing in the world, or that it's
inherently unsafe, or that an inspector is going to fail it.
I just think it's a curious situation and wonder
about the code aspect of it because you're now using the panel
metal as a current carrying conductor. That just doesn't seem
right. If you installed that additional
neutral bar as an insulated one, then you would not have current
flowing in the panel metal, only the wire connecting it to the
original neutral.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Apr 28, 11:41 am, RBM <r...@noemail.com> wrote:

I still don't get how a #6 can be used to carry the full neutral load
of a 100 amp service. Worse case, the full neutral load is 100 amps.
You can't use #6 to connect the hots on a 100 amp sub-panel, can you?

I agree the "chances" that the neutral is ever going to see the
full 100 amps is small, because it's only the unbalanced portion.
With 120V randomly assigned to one hot or the other, they are
going to tend to cancel out and the neutral current will be small.
But it is possible to put the full 100 amps on the neutral
if you managed to put a bunch of large 120V
loads all on the same hot leg. Like plugging in say 8 resistance
heaters into 8 circuits that just happen to be all on the same
hot leg. I guess maybe the answer is that even if you put
100 amps through a #6 it's not the end of the world, ie it's
not going to fail or get hot enough to start a fire, etc.

>
> To be used as a secondary neutral bar as opposed to a ground bar, it
> must be connected to the original bar by something more substantial that

> the steel of the cabinet- Hide quoted text -

[k...@attt.bizz]

There aren't the same insulation temperature issues with bare copper,
clamped to the box on both ends (heat sink), inside a large enclosure
(instead of threading through insulation).

[RBM]

> Residential services are treated differently than feeders, so they allow the smaller size conductors
>

[TomR]

TomR wrote:
>> <tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message

Just to follow up . . , I still don't have a definite answer from Siemens on
this question.

Here is what I wrote to Siemens:

"My question is in regard to the cat# S2020B1100 Main Breaker Load Center.
It comes with only one neutral bar (on the right side). I would like to add
a second neutral bar on the left side of the panel.

Is there a way for me to do that?

It has been suggested to me that I could possibly do this by adding a
Siemens ground bar on the left side and then connecting a #6 or #8 jumper
wire from the new ground bar to the original neutral bar, thus making them
both useable as neutral/ground bars.

Is that correct, or is there a better way to add a neutral bar on the left
side?"

And, this is what they wrote back yesterday:

"I am checking to see if there is an offering for this. I will advise."

My guess is that they are going to say that there is no option to add a
second neutral bar to their cat# S2020B1100 Main Breaker Load Center. But,
that I can add a ground bar to the panel.

I doubt that they would want to get into giving out advice on how to create
or wire a second neutral bar since that model panel does not come with a
second neutral bar.

Also, I went to Home Depot and I looked at the box etc. for the same model
Siemens Main Breaker Load Center, and it specifically says, "Ground bar not
included". I think I remember the instructions inside showing how to add a
ground bar (I'm not sure). And, Home Depot does sell the ground bar and
shows how to install it as a ground bar.

[bud--]

For residential, you can use #4 if the service is 100A. This is based
on "diversity".

You are real unlikely to have a bar total load connected to one leg that
is a problem with #6, and there is also "diversity". But, as you say,
it is possible. A person could be a little careful about what is connected.

I would rather use a ground bar as a ground bar unless there is a good
reason to have to land neutrals on it.

>
> There aren't the same insulation temperature issues with bare copper,
> clamped to the box on both ends (heat sink), inside a large enclosure
> (instead of threading through insulation).
>

The wire is connected to the neutral bar and the ground bar.

There are limits to the wire amp rating based on the connections to the
wire. Unless the connections are rated for a higher temperature, in
general for 100A circuits or less the wire can only use the amp rating
for 60 degree C insulation. (Breakers may, for example, be marked for
75 degree C wire.) (110.14-C)

[bob haller]

I added a bar to a existing cabinet once. The added bar and existing
bar both had spots for 12 gauge or smaller wire.

Plus each bar had significantly larger spots for heavy conductors.
perhaps a electric stove or something like it

So added 2 copper heavy tie lines between the old and new bar,
figuring that would never cause a problem:) plus the bar was bonded to
the cabinet

I had to get middle states to reinspect the cabinet for home sale, the
inspector complimented me on my good job........

the existing bar had issues many of the screws were like welded on
place, they must of been overtightened at one time and the heads would
break off when loosened. i had ven tried heating some. the quick
project took all day:(

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Apr 30, 10:42 am, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote:
> On 4/29/2013 10:02 AM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>
>
>
>
>

> > On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 05:46:36 -0700 (PDT), "trad...@optonline.net"
> > <trad...@optonline.net>  wrote:

Which I'm sure you'd agree is an interesting concept. By diversity
I assume they mean that the statistical probability of someone
putting 100A of load all on one leg is low. I think we all agree,
it's
low, but it's not zero.

>
> You are real unlikely to have a bar total load connected to one leg that
> is a problem with #6, and there is also "diversity".  But, as you say,
> it is possible. A person could be a little careful about what is connected.
>

Which is cool if it's a fixed installation of some known equipment.
But it could be a house where someone could plug in a bunch of
resistance heaters and have them by chance wind up on the
same leg.

> I would rather use a ground bar as a ground bar unless there is a good
> reason to have to land neutrals on it.
>
>

I agree. That was my first suggestion and everyone agrees
it's 100% kosher. Use the new ground bar
for grounds, move some existing grounds from the neutral/ground
bar over to it, thereby freeing up more neutrals.

What are your thoughts about what I pointed out about
current flow through the panel itself? If you put a ground bar
on the other side of the panel, it's bonded to the panel.
Even if you connect it with a heavy wire back to the
original neutral, you still will have current dividing, with
some of it going through the panel metal. I would think the
better option would be to install an insulated neutral bar.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 09:42:27 -0600, bud-- <remove....@isp.com>
wrote:

Based on insulation temperature, right?

>You are real unlikely to have a bar total load connected to one leg that
>is a problem with #6, and there is also "diversity". But, as you say,
>it is possible. A person could be a little careful about what is connected.
>
>I would rather use a ground bar as a ground bar unless there is a good
>reason to have to land neutrals on it.

Absolutely.

>> There aren't the same insulation temperature issues with bare copper,
>> clamped to the box on both ends (heat sink), inside a large enclosure
>> (instead of threading through insulation).
>>
>
>The wire is connected to the neutral bar and the ground bar.

Which is tied to the case (heat sink). It's not sealed up inside a
wall.

>There are limits to the wire amp rating based on the connections to the
>wire. Unless the connections are rated for a higher temperature, in
>general for 100A circuits or less the wire can only use the amp rating
>for 60 degree C insulation. (Breakers may, for example, be marked for
>75 degree C wire.) (110.14-C)

Again, the temperature is based on the insulation rating, and
assumptions about its environment, right? There is no insulation here
and in fact there is a big-assed heat sink.

[bud--]

Doesn't matter what the insulation is. You can use #4 for a residential
100A service.

>
>> You are real unlikely to have a bar total load connected to one leg that
>> is a problem with #6, and there is also "diversity". But, as you say,
>> it is possible. A person could be a little careful about what is connected.
>>
>> I would rather use a ground bar as a ground bar unless there is a good
>> reason to have to land neutrals on it.
>
> Absolutely.
>
>>> There aren't the same insulation temperature issues with bare copper,
>>> clamped to the box on both ends (heat sink), inside a large enclosure
>>> (instead of threading through insulation).
>>>
>>
>> The wire is connected to the neutral bar and the ground bar.
>
> Which is tied to the case (heat sink). It's not sealed up inside a
> wall.
>
>> There are limits to the wire amp rating based on the connections to the
>> wire. Unless the connections are rated for a higher temperature, in
>> general for 100A circuits or less the wire can only use the amp rating
>> for 60 degree C insulation. (Breakers may, for example, be marked for
>> 75 degree C wire.) (110.14-C)
>
> Again, the temperature is based on the insulation rating, and
> assumptions about its environment, right? There is no insulation here
> and in fact there is a big-assed heat sink.

Connections (lugs, terminals, ...) have a temperature rating. The rating
is based on the current rating of a conductor with insulation of that
temperature. That limits the amount of heat at the connection
contributed by the wire.

If you have a breaker that is rated for 75 degree C and you are using
wire with a 90 degree C insulation, you can only use the wire at the
current rating for a 75 degree wire. (The wire has a higher current
rating at 90 degrees C.) If you had a bare wire you can only use it at
the current rating for a 75 degree insulated wire.

For circuits of 100A and less, in general connections are only rated for
the current allowed for a 60 degree wire unless the connection is
explicitly rated different. (110.14-C)

If any heat sink modifies conditions it is up to the manufacturer and UL
to determine a higher temperature rating for the connection.

[bud--]

A #4 wire with 75 degree insulation has a rating of 85A. With 60 degree
insulation the rating is 70A. They can be used as 100A service (for
residential only) and feeders downstream from that service.

That is because of "diversity". Large loads (range, water heater, ...)
will cycle on and off. If they are all on and draw 100A now they will
cycle off soon.

>>
>> You are real unlikely to have a bar total load connected to one leg that
>> is a problem with #6, and there is also "diversity". But, as you say,
>> it is possible. A person could be a little careful about what is connected.
>>
>
> Which is cool if it's a fixed installation of some known equipment.
> But it could be a house where someone could plug in a bunch of
> resistance heaters and have them by chance wind up on the
> same leg.
>
>
>
>> I would rather use a ground bar as a ground bar unless there is a good
>> reason to have to land neutrals on it.
>>
>>
>
> I agree. That was my first suggestion and everyone agrees
> it's 100% kosher. Use the new ground bar
> for grounds, move some existing grounds from the neutral/ground
> bar over to it, thereby freeing up more neutrals.
>
> What are your thoughts about what I pointed out about
> current flow through the panel itself? If you put a ground bar
> on the other side of the panel, it's bonded to the panel.
> Even if you connect it with a heavy wire back to the
> original neutral, you still will have current dividing, with
> some of it going through the panel metal. I would think the
> better option would be to install an insulated neutral bar.

I would still rather use a ground bar for ground wires. The neutral
should have at least enough positions for neutrals for the number of
poles allowed in the panel.

You are right about current flow through the panel as an alternate path.

All this assumes a service panel with a N-G bond. For a subpanel the
alternate path is the ground conductor back to the service, which is a
code violation.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Wed, 01 May 2013 12:02:58 -0600, bud-- <remove....@isp.com>

OK, but he issue was #6.

I thought we were still talking about wiring between two ground or
neutral bars?

[bud--]

On 4/30/2013 9:34 AM, bob haller wrote:
> I added a bar to a existing cabinet once. The added bar and existing
> bar both had spots for 12 gauge or smaller wire.

Obviously an obsolete panel which should have been replaced with a new
200A service.

>
> Plus each bar had significantly larger spots for heavy conductors.
> perhaps a electric stove or something like it
>
> So added 2 copper heavy tie lines between the old and new bar,
> figuring that would never cause a problem:) plus the bar was bonded to
> the cabinet

Your paralleling of wires is a code violation. (310.10)

>
> I had to get middle states to reinspect the cabinet for home sale, the
> inspector complimented me on my good job........

We all know sharp home inspectors are. They might even flag putting 2
ground wires under 1 screw because it is not "neat". You won't be able
to sell the house until you hire an electrician to fix the problem.

And don't forget to align the switch and receptacle plate screw slots
either horizontal or vertical depending on the standard in your area.

>
> the existing bar had issues many of the screws were like welded on
> place, they must of been overtightened at one time and the heads would
> break off when loosened. i had ven tried heating some. the quick
> project took all day:(

The panel was obviously defective. Instead of replacing it with a new
200A service you kludged a fix. When the house burns down the insurance
company won't pay off.

[bud--]

#4 was a direct answer to trader.

The connections to ground and neutral bars are governed by the code,
just like any other connection. They will have a rating as described in
my post.

[RBM]

I think you've about covered it all.
The joke is, that he probably still has the original FPE panel that he
likes to bitch about, probably even has some K&T in it as well.

[bob haller]

On May 1, 1:43 pm, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote:
> On 4/30/2013 9:34 AM, bob haller wrote:
>
> > I added a bar to a existing cabinet once. The added bar and existing
> > bar both had spots for 12 gauge or smaller wire.
>
> Obviously an obsolete panel which should have been replaced with a new
> 200A service.
>
>
>
> > Plus each bar had significantly larger spots for heavy conductors.
> > perhaps a electric stove or something like it
>
> > So added 2 copper heavy tie lines between the old and new bar,
> > figuring that would never cause a problem:) plus the bar was bonded to
> > the cabinet
>
> Your paralleling of wires is a code violation. (310.10)

So having 2 heavy copper conductors between the 2 bars is against
code? What sort of problem could that ever cause? better to have the
copper wires carry any current than the metal cabinet?

> > I had to get middle states to reinspect the cabinet for home sale, the
> > inspector complimented me on my good job........
>
> We all know sharp home inspectors are. They might even flag putting 2
> ground wires under 1 screw because it is not "neat". You won't be able

middle states or middle group is the electrical inspection service,
they inspect all service entrances etc.

they are not home inspectors!

[TomR]

TomR wrote:
> TomR wrote:
>>> <tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>>
>>> But something about that doesn't seem quite right. If you just run
>>> a #6 or #8 wire between the new bar and the old bar, then
>>> you're relying on that wire to potentially carry the max current

>>> rating (100 amps) of the panel when in service, .....

> Just to follow up . . , I still don't have a definite answer from
> Siemens on this question.

> ...

> And, this is what they wrote back yesterday:
>
> "I am checking to see if there is an offering for this. I will
> advise."

I followed up with the Siemens rep today and he wrote that the "initial
indications were that adding neutral bar was not possible", but that he is
waiting for verification on that information and will let me know when he
hears back from the higher-ups.

I assume that means that the final answer (according to Siemens) will be
that adding a second neutral bar to this particular model load panel is not
an option.

So, now I am back to the idea that was suggested of just adding a ground bar
on the left side of the panel -- and using that just as a ground bar, and
not as a neutral bar -- and only attach any neutrals to the existing neutral
bar on the right side of the panel.

Now, my question is about adding the new ground bar. I see ground bars for
Siemens panels that do not have a "ground lug" on them, and other ground
bars that do have a "ground lug". When I add the new ground bar, I want to
be able to connect the new ground bar to the existing neutral/ground bar
with a #6 (or maybe #4) ground wire between the two. I am thinking that I
may use #4 just to be overly cautious.

But, the question is about attaching the #4 or #6 wire to the new ground
bar. Am I correct in thinking that there should be a "ground lug" on the
new ground bar that will accept the #4 or #6 wire?

If so, maybe something like this (that I would buy locally, not through
Amazon) is what I need:
http://www.amazon.com/Siemens-EC2GB152-Ground-Terminal-Positions/dp/B007ZZGSQI/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hi_3#productDetails .



Is that correct?



Thanks.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On May 1, 3:19 pm, "TomR" <T...@tomrljp5.lhd> wrote:
> TomR wrote:
> > TomR wrote:
> >>> <trad...@optonline.net> wrote in message

All that is typically required for the ground bar is
to secure it to the panel in the holes made for that
purpose using the provided screws. That ground
bar, used as a ground bar, is not a current carrying conductor
and I don't believe you need any additional wire. Check the
instructions.

[TomR]

Thanks. That makes sense.

The Siemens rep wrote back to me this morning and confirmed that they do not
offer an option or way of adding a second neutral bar to this model load
center.

I think I'll just go with the plan of adding a ground bar and only
connecting ground wires to that ground bar. All of the neutrals will go on
the original neutral bar that is in the panel.

I appreciate the thought that you and others put into this and all of the
feedback and suggestions that you and others provided.

[TomR]

New Final Answer -- See Below.

TomR wrote:
> I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it

> only has one neutral/ground bar. The neutral/ground bar is on the right
> side
> of the panel.
>

> I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on
> the left side and, if so, how to do that.
>
> The information about Siemens service panels is located at:

> http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/general/dlc/data/assets/US/SIILV/SIE_SA_ESPL_Sel_App_Guide.pdf

> .
> This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20
> circuits. On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided
> neutral on 24
> circuits and below". So that explains why the panel that I have only
> has one neutral bar installed.
>
> My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the
> left side and, if so, how do I do that? Thanks.

The new final answer on this is that it turns out that Siemens does in fact
have a "neutral bar kit" that it now sells to enable people like me to add a
second neutral bar to the panel that I have that only came with one neutral
bar.

The one for my panel is Siemens catalog/part number ECCNB16.

Here is a link to the ECCNB16 Instruction Sheet which shows this neutral bar
kit and how to install it:

http://www74.zippyshare.com/v/43794674/file.html .



Apparently, this is a new item that Siemens now sells. And, it turns out
that on the Page 21 of the Siemens website that I posted in my original post
above,

http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/general/dlc/data/assets/US/SIILV/SIE_SA_ESPL_Sel_App_Guide.pdf
(at the very bottom of the page, on the right), there are two "neutral bar
kits" listed, but there is a typo and the catalog/part numbers that are
shown are incorrect. Siemens sent me an email letting me know that the
correct catalog/part number for the item that I needed is ECCNB16.



When I went to local electrical supply places near me, they didn't have them
in stock and they weren't familiar with the neutral bar kit that I needed.
And, since it is new, it wasn't listed in the Siemens catologs/brochures
that they had. But, I showed them a copy of the ECCNB16 Instruction Sheet
that I had and they were able to order the part using that catalog/part
number. It arrived yesterday and I'll be installing it today.



One other note is that the electric supply place that I went to said that
when Siemens switched over to their ES Series and PL Series load centers a
few years ago, most of the electricians that the supply place deals with say
they do not want the ES Series load centers -- in part due to the lack of a
second neutral bar on ES Series panels with 24 or less circuits.



I know now that I should have specified that I wanted the PL Series panel
when I had mine installed. Apparently, the PL Series is better quality and
has a copper busbar, and they all come with two neutral bars, etc.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On May 15, 10:45 am, "TomR" <T...@tomrljp5.lhd> wrote:
> New Final Answer -- See Below.
>
>
>
>
>
> TomR wrote:
> > I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it
> > only has one neutral/ground bar.  The neutral/ground bar is on the right
> > side
> > of the panel.
>
> > I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on
> > the left side and, if so, how to do that.
>
> > The information about Siemens service panels is located at:

> >http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/general/dlc/data/assets/US/SIILV/S...

> > .
> > This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20
> > circuits.  On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided
> > neutral on 24
> > circuits and below".  So that explains why the panel that I have only
> > has one neutral bar installed.
>
> > My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the
> > left side and, if so, how do I do that?  Thanks.
>
> The new final answer on this is that it turns out that Siemens does in fact
> have a "neutral bar kit" that it now sells to enable people like me to add a
> second neutral bar to the panel that I have that only came with one neutral
> bar.
>
> The one for my panel is Siemens catalog/part number ECCNB16.
>
> Here is a link to the ECCNB16 Instruction Sheet which shows this neutral bar
> kit and how to install it:
>
> http://www74.zippyshare.com/v/43794674/file.html.
>
> Apparently, this is a new item that Siemens now sells.  And, it turns out
> that on the Page 21 of the Siemens website that I posted in my original post
> above,
>

> http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/general/dlc/data/assets/US/SIILV/S...

> (at the very bottom of the page, on the right), there are two "neutral bar
> kits" listed, but there is a typo and the catalog/part numbers that are
> shown are incorrect.  Siemens sent me an email letting me know that the
> correct catalog/part number for the item that I needed is ECCNB16.
>
> When I went to local electrical supply places near me, they didn't have them
> in stock and they weren't familiar with the neutral bar kit that I needed.
> And, since it is new, it wasn't listed in the Siemens catologs/brochures
> that they had.  But, I showed them a copy of the ECCNB16 Instruction Sheet
> that I had and they were able to order the part using that catalog/part
> number.  It arrived yesterday and I'll be installing it today.
>
> One other note is that the electric supply place that I went to said that
> when Siemens switched over to their ES Series and PL Series load centers a
> few years ago, most of the electricians that the supply place deals with say
> they do not want the ES Series load centers -- in part due to the lack of a
> second neutral bar on ES Series panels with 24 or less circuits.
>
> I know now that I should have specified that I wanted the PL Series panel
> when I had mine installed.  Apparently, the PL Series is better quality and

> has a copper busbar, and they all come with two neutral bars, etc.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks for the update. And good to see you found a
solution. Kind of amazing that the help line at Siemens couldn't
figure this out day one.

One question. Is this neutral bar insulated from the panel metal
or in direct contact with it? My guess would be that it's insulated,
so that no current flows in the panel metal.

[TomR]

You're right, it is kind of amazing that they didn't figure it out on day 1.

I have a hunch that Siemens created these new lines of load centers a few
years ago, and maybe the idea of only including one neutral bar in certain
models was something that they introduced at the same time. Then (I'm just
guessing here), maybe it took a couple of years for them to think that they
should give people the option of adding back the "missing" neutral bar. So,
I think their "neutral bar kit" was just recently introduced by them and not
everyone in the company knew about it yet. And, to make things more
complicated, they have the wrong catolog/part number for that item on their
website.

What happened was that after I received the first "final answer" from them
saying that they did not have an offering of a way to add a neutral bar, I
wrote back and asked what the "neutral bar kits" that I found on their
website were for. That's when they realized that they do now have that
option available, and they wrote back about what the neutral bar kit is and
said it would work, and gave me the correct part number and a copy of the
installation manual.

And, yes, the added neutral bar is insulated from the panel itself. It
snaps into place on the left side on top of an existing plastic backing that
keeps it insulated from the panel. The cross bar connects the original
neutral bar to the second (newly added) neutral bar. The original neutral
bar has a bonding screw that can be used to bond it to the panel (which
makes it also a ground bar), or I think that screw can be backed out to keep
it as just a neutral bar that is not grounded. In the latter case, separate
ground bars can be added to the panel, and they are made to screw directly
into the panel itself.

Incidentally, the neutral bar kit that I bought costs about $20. I actually
bought 3 of them because I had 3 main load centers installed at the same
time -- one for each of 2 apartments and one for a house panel. I probably
could have gotten the PL Series load centers which include two neutral bars
for about the same price that I ended up paying for the panels I have plus
adding the neutral bar. I don't know for sure because I haven't checked the
prices, but that's my guess.

I do like Siemens panels, but now I know that the next time that I have them
put in I'll need to specify which panel I want -- meaning the PL Series that
has a copper busbar, two neutral bars, etc.

[TomR]

Another new update -- see below.

TomR wrote:
> I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it
> only has one neutral/ground bar. The neutral/ground bar is on the right
> side
> of the panel.
>
> I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on
> the left side and, if so, how to do that.
>
> The information about Siemens service panels is located at:

> http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/general/dlc/data/assets/US/SIILV/SIE_SA_ESPL_Sel_App_Guide.pdf
> .
. . . ,
>
> My question WAS "... can I add another neutral/ground bar on the

> left side and, if so, how do I do that?

I just received another email from the Siemens rep today. He said that he
checked again with their product management people and they told him,

".... the ES load centers have been recently re-designed & now will be
including the second neutral bar in all the 2020, 2024, & 2424 load
centers."

I think that's a smart move on their part.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On May 17, 5:43 pm, "TomR" <T...@tomrljp5.lhd> wrote:
> Another new update -- see below.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> TomR wrote:
> > I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it
> > only has one neutral/ground bar.  The neutral/ground bar is on the right
> > side
> > of the panel.
>
> > I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on
> > the left side and, if so, how to do that.
>
> > The information about Siemens service panels is located at:

> >http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/general/dlc/data/assets/US/SIILV/S...

> > .
> . . . ,
>
> > My question WAS "... can I add another neutral/ground bar on the
> > left side and, if so, how do I do that?
>
> I just received another email from the Siemens rep today.  He said that he
> checked again with their product management people and they told him,
>
> ".... the ES load centers have been recently re-designed & now will be
> including the second neutral bar in all the 2020, 2024, & 2424 load
> centers."
>

> I think that's a smart move on their part.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

They've only been making this stuff for a hundred years.
Sooner or later they were bound to figure out how to
make a panel right.