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Actual PEX Inside Diameter (Size)
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Jerr...@spamblocked.com
Mar 10, 2015, 3:16:34 PM3/10/15
to
I was at a building supply store yesterday, and had time to spare. I
grabbed a roll of 1/2" PEX and a stick of 1/2" copper pipe. I held them
end to end. The OD is about the same, but the ID of the PEX is about
15% or 20% smaller, because the walls of the PEX are thicker. This
means that there will be less water available at the fixture, when using
PEX. For most fixtures, such as a sink or toilet this is likely not a
problem, becuase those fixtures usually have a 1/4" supply tube feeding
that fixture anyhow.
But for a bathtub. washing machine faucet, or an outdoor spigot, that
would make the flow slightly less than with copper or steel pipe.
(Probably 15 or 20% less, since the pipe is that same amount)
But it gets MUCH worse. The fittings for copper or steel pipe are
always LARGER than the pipe itself. The fittings for PEX are SMALLER,
since they fit inside the pipe. I grabbed a 1/2" brass PEX fitting from
the shelf and looked at the ID of the hole inside this fitting. The ID
of the fitting is just a tad over 1/4". Thus, about 50% of the ID of
rigid copper. That is a significant difference.
While feeding a toilet or sink from 1/2" PEX may be acceptable, I'd find
the amount of water at a bathtub, washing machine and particularly an
outdoor spigot to be less than desirable.
I dont think any of you PEX lovers can argue with this. Facts are facts
and a 1/4" hole inside of a PEX fitting is only going to allow 50% of
the water flow that a 1/2" copper pipe will allow, (which is just a tad
less than 1/2".)
I think this explains the reason that PEX pipe is supposed to be
installed using a manifold, whereas each fixture has it's own pipe.
This manifold system may be perfect for new construction, where there is
a basement and easy access inside walls to install everything. But to
daisy-chain pipes, from room to room, seems like the result would be
completely unacceptable. And in places that have no basement, and the
plumbing is being replaced in an existing building, running a huge
bundle of pipes to distribute to all the fixtures in the home would be
really messy.
I guess the only way to use PEX, still have adaquate water, and daisy
chain the pipes would be to use 1' or larger PEX as the "feed pipe" and
use 3/4" for everything else. (This would allow about the same flow as
using 3/4" and 1/2" copper or steel pipe, which is common in homes).
This fact alone is what made my final decision to NOT use PEX in my
home. I MUST daisy-chain my pipes, since there is no basemnt and some
pipes will be exposed. Having two exposed pipes (hot andd cold) is one
thing, but if I used a manifold system, I'd have 14 pipes exposed at one
location. (NO THANKS)!
I did check into using 1" PEX but those fittings are even more costly
and would require buying TWO crimping tools, since most of those tools
are either ONE SIZE ONLY, or fit 1/2" and 3/4" combined, but not 1".
Plus, I will have several outdoor spigots attached and I need adaquate
flow.
Even if PEX is great pipe (as some people seem to believe), you can not
deny that the fittings are TOO SMALL for some uses. Why they do not
make fittings that fit over the OUTSIDE of the PEX (to eliminate the
restrictions), I will never know...... I suppose there is just no way
to attach them.....
grabbed a roll of 1/2" PEX and a stick of 1/2" copper pipe. I held them
end to end. The OD is about the same, but the ID of the PEX is about
15% or 20% smaller, because the walls of the PEX are thicker. This
means that there will be less water available at the fixture, when using
PEX. For most fixtures, such as a sink or toilet this is likely not a
problem, becuase those fixtures usually have a 1/4" supply tube feeding
that fixture anyhow.
But for a bathtub. washing machine faucet, or an outdoor spigot, that
would make the flow slightly less than with copper or steel pipe.
(Probably 15 or 20% less, since the pipe is that same amount)
But it gets MUCH worse. The fittings for copper or steel pipe are
always LARGER than the pipe itself. The fittings for PEX are SMALLER,
since they fit inside the pipe. I grabbed a 1/2" brass PEX fitting from
the shelf and looked at the ID of the hole inside this fitting. The ID
of the fitting is just a tad over 1/4". Thus, about 50% of the ID of
rigid copper. That is a significant difference.
While feeding a toilet or sink from 1/2" PEX may be acceptable, I'd find
the amount of water at a bathtub, washing machine and particularly an
outdoor spigot to be less than desirable.
I dont think any of you PEX lovers can argue with this. Facts are facts
and a 1/4" hole inside of a PEX fitting is only going to allow 50% of
the water flow that a 1/2" copper pipe will allow, (which is just a tad
less than 1/2".)
I think this explains the reason that PEX pipe is supposed to be
installed using a manifold, whereas each fixture has it's own pipe.
This manifold system may be perfect for new construction, where there is
a basement and easy access inside walls to install everything. But to
daisy-chain pipes, from room to room, seems like the result would be
completely unacceptable. And in places that have no basement, and the
plumbing is being replaced in an existing building, running a huge
bundle of pipes to distribute to all the fixtures in the home would be
really messy.
I guess the only way to use PEX, still have adaquate water, and daisy
chain the pipes would be to use 1' or larger PEX as the "feed pipe" and
use 3/4" for everything else. (This would allow about the same flow as
using 3/4" and 1/2" copper or steel pipe, which is common in homes).
This fact alone is what made my final decision to NOT use PEX in my
home. I MUST daisy-chain my pipes, since there is no basemnt and some
pipes will be exposed. Having two exposed pipes (hot andd cold) is one
thing, but if I used a manifold system, I'd have 14 pipes exposed at one
location. (NO THANKS)!
I did check into using 1" PEX but those fittings are even more costly
and would require buying TWO crimping tools, since most of those tools
are either ONE SIZE ONLY, or fit 1/2" and 3/4" combined, but not 1".
Plus, I will have several outdoor spigots attached and I need adaquate
flow.
Even if PEX is great pipe (as some people seem to believe), you can not
deny that the fittings are TOO SMALL for some uses. Why they do not
make fittings that fit over the OUTSIDE of the PEX (to eliminate the
restrictions), I will never know...... I suppose there is just no way
to attach them.....
Terry Coombs
Mar 10, 2015, 3:45:28 PM3/10/15
to
Jerr...@spamblocked.com wrote:
>
> I dont think any of you PEX lovers can argue with this. Facts are
> facts and a 1/4" hole inside of a PEX fitting is only going to allow
> 50% of the water flow that a 1/2" copper pipe will allow, (which is
> just a tad less than 1/2".)
Do the math , Jerry . That 1/4" hole has only a quarter the area of a 1/2"
>
> I dont think any of you PEX lovers can argue with this. Facts are
> facts and a 1/4" hole inside of a PEX fitting is only going to allow
> 50% of the water flow that a 1/2" copper pipe will allow, (which is
> just a tad less than 1/2".)
hole , and thus a quarter of the amount of flow . I went with PVC ... we
have a high iron content in our water here <rusty stains in the grout of our
new shower> and electrolysis can be a problem .
--
Snag
Oren
Mar 10, 2015, 3:49:37 PM3/10/15
to
On Tue, 10 Mar 2015 14:15:31 -0600, Jerr...@spamblocked.com wrote:
>I was at a building supply store yesterday, and had time to spare
...and Home Guy has a hate crime against PEX.
>I was at a building supply store yesterday, and had time to spare
Learn about it in a few minutes at a supply store. Hornswaggle.
Ralph Mowery
Mar 10, 2015, 4:21:24 PM3/10/15
to
"Terry Coombs" <snag...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:mdnhj1$shg$1...@dont-email.me...
the flow. I had a house I lived in redone with the PEX. It was about 25
years old and plumbed with copper pipe. The copper kept getting pin hole
leaks in it, so after repairing it several times I decided it was time to
redo all the pipes. Called a plummer in and he used the PEX but I think it
was the 3/4 inch size.
Paul Franklin
Mar 10, 2015, 4:34:18 PM3/10/15
to
<snip>
It doesn't matter if the diameter is smaller as long as it can deliver
adequate flow at pressure. Max flow in 1/2 PEX will certainly be lower
than 1/2 copper, but the required flow as determined by the fixture is
way less than maximum flow.
Here's a link to test results comparing copper systems and several
varieties of PEX systems under actual conditions:
http://www.toolbase.org/PDF/CaseStudies/pex_copper_pressure.pdf
PEX system have fewer, usually a lot fewer, fittings. The fittings in
copper systems generally contribute the biggest flow restriction in
any given run. In PEX, there are usually NO fittings in any given run
other than the ball valve at the end.
Often the most efficient way to handle retrofits is to do a run of 3/4
to the bathroom or kitchen, and then put a mini manifold there, with
individual 1/2 runs to the fixtures.
Are there situations where you have to worry about the flow rate using
PEX? Absolutely. But they are far less common than you suggest, and
are usually easily addressed by upsizing one or two runs or sections
of runs.
I've done repiping both ways...copper and PEX, several times. After
using PEX, I won't go back to copper except for old work.
Your analysis is valid as far as it goes. Yes the pipe is smaller ID.
Yes the fittings are smaller ID. But in actual system configurations,
as described in the above report, PEX works as well as conventional
copper. There are very few situations where the difference in maximum
flow rate matters.
Nobody is making you use anything you don't want, but don't try so
hard to talk yourself out of trying it....
Paul F.
>
>Even if PEX is great pipe (as some people seem to believe), you can not
>deny that the fittings are TOO SMALL for some uses. Why they do not
>make fittings that fit over the OUTSIDE of the PEX (to eliminate the
>restrictions), I will never know...... I suppose there is just no way
>to attach them.....
>
>
You are overlooking a number of factors:
>Even if PEX is great pipe (as some people seem to believe), you can not
>deny that the fittings are TOO SMALL for some uses. Why they do not
>make fittings that fit over the OUTSIDE of the PEX (to eliminate the
>restrictions), I will never know...... I suppose there is just no way
>to attach them.....
>
>
It doesn't matter if the diameter is smaller as long as it can deliver
adequate flow at pressure. Max flow in 1/2 PEX will certainly be lower
than 1/2 copper, but the required flow as determined by the fixture is
way less than maximum flow.
Here's a link to test results comparing copper systems and several
varieties of PEX systems under actual conditions:
http://www.toolbase.org/PDF/CaseStudies/pex_copper_pressure.pdf
PEX system have fewer, usually a lot fewer, fittings. The fittings in
copper systems generally contribute the biggest flow restriction in
any given run. In PEX, there are usually NO fittings in any given run
other than the ball valve at the end.
Often the most efficient way to handle retrofits is to do a run of 3/4
to the bathroom or kitchen, and then put a mini manifold there, with
individual 1/2 runs to the fixtures.
Are there situations where you have to worry about the flow rate using
PEX? Absolutely. But they are far less common than you suggest, and
are usually easily addressed by upsizing one or two runs or sections
of runs.
I've done repiping both ways...copper and PEX, several times. After
using PEX, I won't go back to copper except for old work.
Your analysis is valid as far as it goes. Yes the pipe is smaller ID.
Yes the fittings are smaller ID. But in actual system configurations,
as described in the above report, PEX works as well as conventional
copper. There are very few situations where the difference in maximum
flow rate matters.
Nobody is making you use anything you don't want, but don't try so
hard to talk yourself out of trying it....
Paul F.
dpb
Mar 10, 2015, 4:40:17 PM3/10/15
to
On 03/10/2015 3:25 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> "Terry Coombs"<snag...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:mdnhj1$shg$1...@dont-email.me...
>> Jerr...@spamblocked.com wrote:
>>>
>>> I dont think any of you PEX lovers can argue with this. Facts are
>>> facts and a 1/4" hole inside of a PEX fitting is only going to allow
>>> 50% of the water flow that a 1/2" copper pipe will allow, (which is
>>> just a tad less than 1/2".)
>>
>> Do the math , Jerry . That 1/4" hole has only a quarter the area of a
>> 1/2" hole , and thus a quarter of the amount of flow . I went with PVC ...
>> we have a high iron content in our water here<rusty stains in the grout
>> of our new shower> and electrolysis can be a problem .
>>
> That is right. Double or half the hole size and the flow is 4 times or 1/4
> the flow. ...
> "Terry Coombs"<snag...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:mdnhj1$shg$1...@dont-email.me...
>> Jerr...@spamblocked.com wrote:
>>>
>>> I dont think any of you PEX lovers can argue with this. Facts are
>>> facts and a 1/4" hole inside of a PEX fitting is only going to allow
>>> 50% of the water flow that a 1/2" copper pipe will allow, (which is
>>> just a tad less than 1/2".)
>>
>> Do the math , Jerry . That 1/4" hole has only a quarter the area of a
>> 1/2" hole , and thus a quarter of the amount of flow . I went with PVC ...
>> we have a high iron content in our water here<rusty stains in the grout
>> of our new shower> and electrolysis can be a problem .
>>
> That is right. Double or half the hole size and the flow is 4 times or 1/4
Ain't that linear, no...
First, flow is nonlinear process; there is an induced pressure drop
along the run that is complex and dependent on all kinds of variables.
W/O getting into a whole treatise on fluid dynamics, one advantage of
PEX is smoother surface so the length pressure loss is less--how much,
precisely, I've not looked up so not sure how much an affect to assign.
But, the restrictions of the fittings are similar to a flow orifice but
not as severe. There's a local pressure loss but much of that is
recovered. Again, without actual handbook data and some calculations
don't know a comparative flow rate after X feet of one versus the other
given a set supply pressure but I'm certain it's not a factor of 4.
Somebody want to let a consulting contract? :)
--
Dick
Mar 10, 2015, 4:44:49 PM3/10/15
to
On 3/10/2015 4:15 PM, Jerr...@spamblocked.com wrote:
> I dont think any of you PEX lovers can argue with this.
Ever hear of someone getting the PEX ripped from the walls of their house?
> I dont think any of you PEX lovers can argue with this.
Oren
Mar 10, 2015, 5:09:09 PM3/10/15
to
On Tue, 10 Mar 2015 16:44:38 -0400, Dick <richar...@comcast.web>
wrote:
>On 3/10/2015 4:15 PM, Jerr...@spamblocked.com wrote:
>> I dont think any of you PEX lovers can argue with this.
>
>Ever hear of someone getting the PEX ripped from the walls of their house?
...Home Guy has never seen an 18 year old home full of PEX.
wrote:
>On 3/10/2015 4:15 PM, Jerr...@spamblocked.com wrote:
>> I dont think any of you PEX lovers can argue with this.
>
>Ever hear of someone getting the PEX ripped from the walls of their house?
Meanie
Mar 10, 2015, 5:17:03 PM3/10/15
to
time of posting in here 24/7.
trader_4
Mar 10, 2015, 5:49:32 PM3/10/15
to
http://www.toolbase.org/PDF/CaseStudies/pex_copper_pressure.pdf
IDK if it's truly a fair comparison. They said something about previously
using PEX barbed, but then switching to NPT threaded connections. Isn't
that still a barb type fitting, the part that goes in the PEX? But if it's
done like a typical house would be done, the result is that 1/2" PEX and 1/2"
copper perform about the same.
dpb
Mar 10, 2015, 6:29:37 PM3/10/15
to
On 03/10/2015 4:49 PM, trader_4 wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 4:40:17 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
>> On 03/10/2015 3:25 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
>>> "Terry Coombs"<snag...@msn.com> wrote in message
>>> news:mdnhj1$shg$1...@dont-email.me...
>>>> Jerr...@spamblocked.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I dont think any of you PEX lovers can argue with this. Facts are
>>>>> facts and a 1/4" hole inside of a PEX fitting is only going to allow
>>>>> 50% of the water flow that a 1/2" copper pipe will allow, (which is
>>>>> just a tad less than 1/2".)
>>>>
>>>> Do the math , Jerry . That 1/4" hole has only a quarter the area of a
>>>> 1/2" hole , and thus a quarter of the amount of flow . I went with PVC ...
>>>> we have a high iron content in our water here<rusty stains in the grout
>>>> of our new shower> and electrolysis can be a problem .
>>>>
>>> That is right. Double or half the hole size and the flow is 4 times or 1/4
>>> the flow. ...
>>
>> Ain't that linear, no...
>>
>> First, flow is nonlinear process; there is an induced pressure drop
>> along the run that is complex and dependent on all kinds of variables.
>>
...
> On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 4:40:17 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
>> On 03/10/2015 3:25 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
>>> "Terry Coombs"<snag...@msn.com> wrote in message
>>> news:mdnhj1$shg$1...@dont-email.me...
>>>> Jerr...@spamblocked.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I dont think any of you PEX lovers can argue with this. Facts are
>>>>> facts and a 1/4" hole inside of a PEX fitting is only going to allow
>>>>> 50% of the water flow that a 1/2" copper pipe will allow, (which is
>>>>> just a tad less than 1/2".)
>>>>
>>>> Do the math , Jerry . That 1/4" hole has only a quarter the area of a
>>>> 1/2" hole , and thus a quarter of the amount of flow . I went with PVC ...
>>>> we have a high iron content in our water here<rusty stains in the grout
>>>> of our new shower> and electrolysis can be a problem .
>>>>
>>> That is right. Double or half the hole size and the flow is 4 times or 1/4
>>> the flow. ...
>>
>> Ain't that linear, no...
>>
>> First, flow is nonlinear process; there is an induced pressure drop
>> along the run that is complex and dependent on all kinds of variables.
>>
>> But, the restrictions of the fittings are similar to a flow orifice but
>> not as severe. There's a local pressure loss but much of that is
>> recovered. Again, without actual handbook data and some calculations
>> don't know a comparative flow rate after X feet of one versus the other
>> given a set supply pressure but I'm certain it's not a factor of 4.
>>
>> Somebody want to let a consulting contract? :)
>>
>> --
>
> It's already been done:
>
> http://www.toolbase.org/PDF/CaseStudies/pex_copper_pressure.pdf
>
> IDK if it's truly a fair comparison. They said something about previously
> using PEX barbed, but then switching to NPT threaded connections. Isn't
> that still a barb type fitting, the part that goes in the PEX? But if it's
> done like a typical house would be done, the result is that 1/2" PEX and 1/2"
> copper perform about the same.
I'd have to read it much more thoroughly than just the quick scan but it
>> not as severe. There's a local pressure loss but much of that is
>> recovered. Again, without actual handbook data and some calculations
>> don't know a comparative flow rate after X feet of one versus the other
>> given a set supply pressure but I'm certain it's not a factor of 4.
>>
>> Somebody want to let a consulting contract? :)
>>
>> --
>
> It's already been done:
>
> http://www.toolbase.org/PDF/CaseStudies/pex_copper_pressure.pdf
>
> IDK if it's truly a fair comparison. They said something about previously
> using PEX barbed, but then switching to NPT threaded connections. Isn't
> that still a barb type fitting, the part that goes in the PEX? But if it's
> done like a typical house would be done, the result is that 1/2" PEX and 1/2"
> copper perform about the same.
basically confirms what I knew had to be true. As you note, digging
into the details of the differences to see how much, if any, they biased
it in favor of the desired result but it ain't worth the effort; net
result is you'll get sufficient water either way with reasonable care in
design/layout.
--
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Mar 10, 2015, 7:28:02 PM3/10/15
to
>I was at a building supply store yesterday, and had time to spare. I
>grabbed a roll of 1/2" PEX and a stick of 1/2" copper pipe. I held them
>end to end. The OD is about the same, but the ID of the PEX is about
>15% or 20% smaller, because the walls of the PEX are thicker. This
>means that there will be less water available at the fixture, when using
>PEX. For most fixtures, such as a sink or toilet this is likely not a
>problem, becuase those fixtures usually have a 1/4" supply tube feeding
>that fixture anyhow.
One of the advertized advantages of PEX is HIGHER water flow for the
>grabbed a roll of 1/2" PEX and a stick of 1/2" copper pipe. I held them
>end to end. The OD is about the same, but the ID of the PEX is about
>15% or 20% smaller, because the walls of the PEX are thicker. This
>means that there will be less water available at the fixture, when using
>PEX. For most fixtures, such as a sink or toilet this is likely not a
>problem, becuase those fixtures usually have a 1/4" supply tube feeding
>that fixture anyhow.
same sized pipe. (due to ferwe couplings and wider bends, I imagine)
>
>But for a bathtub. washing machine faucet, or an outdoor spigot, that
>would make the flow slightly less than with copper or steel pipe.
>(Probably 15 or 20% less, since the pipe is that same amount)
>
Your guess is way off.
>But for a bathtub. washing machine faucet, or an outdoor spigot, that
>would make the flow slightly less than with copper or steel pipe.
>(Probably 15 or 20% less, since the pipe is that same amount)
>
Check out the report at
www.toolbase.org/PDF/CaseStudies/pex_copper_pressure.pdf
>But it gets MUCH worse. The fittings for copper or steel pipe are
>always LARGER than the pipe itself. The fittings for PEX are SMALLER,
>since they fit inside the pipe. I grabbed a 1/2" brass PEX fitting from
>the shelf and looked at the ID of the hole inside this fitting. The ID
>of the fitting is just a tad over 1/4". Thus, about 50% of the ID of
>rigid copper. That is a significant difference.
Like I said, your assumptions are WAY off. See the report at
>always LARGER than the pipe itself. The fittings for PEX are SMALLER,
>since they fit inside the pipe. I grabbed a 1/2" brass PEX fitting from
>the shelf and looked at the ID of the hole inside this fitting. The ID
>of the fitting is just a tad over 1/4". Thus, about 50% of the ID of
>rigid copper. That is a significant difference.
www.toolbase.org/PDF/CaseStudies/pex_copper_pressure.pdf
>
>While feeding a toilet or sink from 1/2" PEX may be acceptable, I'd find
>the amount of water at a bathtub, washing machine and particularly an
>outdoor spigot to be less than desirable.
>
>I dont think any of you PEX lovers can argue with this. Facts are facts
>and a 1/4" hole inside of a PEX fitting is only going to allow 50% of
>the water flow that a 1/2" copper pipe will allow, (which is just a tad
>less than 1/2".)
Not fact.
>While feeding a toilet or sink from 1/2" PEX may be acceptable, I'd find
>the amount of water at a bathtub, washing machine and particularly an
>outdoor spigot to be less than desirable.
>
>I dont think any of you PEX lovers can argue with this. Facts are facts
>and a 1/4" hole inside of a PEX fitting is only going to allow 50% of
>the water flow that a 1/2" copper pipe will allow, (which is just a tad
>less than 1/2".)
Jack Goff
Mar 11, 2015, 5:15:56 AM3/11/15
to
Jerr...@spamblocked.com
Mar 11, 2015, 7:00:50 AM3/11/15
to
On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 03:15:41 -0600, Jack Goff <ja...@pornnetwork.cum>
wrote:
There's always galvanized steel pipe. Time tested and lasts 50 years or
more.
wrote:
more.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Mar 11, 2015, 5:08:07 PM3/11/15
to
Oren
Mar 11, 2015, 7:30:18 PM3/11/15
to
steel pipe.
--
you never meet a horse that needs stealing, but you meet a man that needs killin'
Mac
Mar 12, 2015, 4:51:18 AM3/12/15
to
trader_4
Mar 12, 2015, 9:17:10 AM3/12/15
to
experiences where you are, but here galvanized didn't last all that long.
It starts to deteriorate, corrode, rust, stuff from that builds up, gradually
reducing the inside diameter. With all the good alternatives today,
IDK why anyone would use it, unless maybe it's an exposed spot, subject
to physical damage.
dpb
Mar 12, 2015, 9:23:33 AM3/12/15
to
On 03/12/2015 8:17 AM, trader_4 wrote:
> On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 4:51:18 AM UTC-4, Mac wrote:
>> On 03/11/2015 04:59 AM, Jerr...@spamblocked.com wrote:
>>> On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 03:15:41 -0600, Jack Goff<ja...@pornnetwork.cum>
>>> wrote:
...
> On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 4:51:18 AM UTC-4, Mac wrote:
>> On 03/11/2015 04:59 AM, Jerr...@spamblocked.com wrote:
>>> On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 03:15:41 -0600, Jack Goff<ja...@pornnetwork.cum>
>>> wrote:
>>>> I prefer copper but with all the copper theft, I'd prolly choose PEX.
>>>
>>> There's always galvanized steel pipe. Time tested and lasts 50 years or
>>> more.
>>>
>>
>> Yah, galvanized is reliable and doing new work is ok........... but
>> I fucking hate doing repair on it.
>
> It's so reliable that I haven't seen it used in decades.... IDK about
> experiences where you are, but here galvanized didn't last all that long.
> It starts to deteriorate, corrode, rust, stuff from that builds up, gradually
> reducing the inside diameter. With all the good alternatives today,
> IDK why anyone would use it, unless maybe it's an exposed spot, subject
> to physical damage.
--
Ed Pawlowski
Mar 12, 2015, 10:14:05 AM3/12/15
to
On 3/12/2015 4:51 AM, Mac wrote:
>
> Yah, galvanized is reliable and doing new work is ok........... but I
> fucking hate doing repair on it.
>
Best way to repair is to abandon it and use PEX.
>
> Yah, galvanized is reliable and doing new work is ok........... but I
> fucking hate doing repair on it.
>
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Mar 12, 2015, 11:52:19 AM3/12/15
to
And take into account virtually no (Canadian, anyway) insurance
company is willing to write new business on a building with ANY
galvanized waterpipe or cast iron sewer pipe. (for good reason, I
might add!!!)
dpb
Mar 12, 2015, 12:00:14 PM3/12/15
to
On 03/12/2015 10:52 AM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
...
> And take into account virtually no (Canadian, anyway) insurance
> company is willing to write new business on a building with ANY
> galvanized waterpipe or cast iron sewer pipe. (for good reason, I
> might add!!!)
I'm having a hard time believing that...there's just too much of it in
existence to be so. Must be other mitigating factors as well methinks
if so...
--
...
> And take into account virtually no (Canadian, anyway) insurance
> company is willing to write new business on a building with ANY
> galvanized waterpipe or cast iron sewer pipe. (for good reason, I
> might add!!!)
existence to be so. Must be other mitigating factors as well methinks
if so...
--
dpb
Mar 12, 2015, 12:18:03 PM3/12/15
to
something else in the particular residence as well.
I'm involved w/ a local nonprofit that buys/rehabs some of the oldest
single-family residences in town (albeit, being in SW KS, nothing is all
_that_ old; just a little over 125 yr since founding) and many of these
have serious structural issues such that as are insurance is iffy at
best. But other than the _very_ few w/ some lead water entrance service
lines, there's nothing that isn't still approved Code practice if it
were up to repair including virtually all galvanized and cast waste
other than the inevitable patchups where plastic has been grafted in to
fix issues.
Once we do the necessary foundation work, etc., etc, etc., often the
main waste stack and occasionally even some of the plumbing is
salvageable if it had been replaced/updated so, since we're a nonprofit
w/ limited means, we do everything w/ as little cash outlay as possible.
Never had any difficulty getting the end product fully insured at
reasonable rates even w/ that existing...
--
Oren
Mar 12, 2015, 2:55:17 PM3/12/15
to
What you can salvage.
Jerr...@spamblocked.com
Mar 12, 2015, 3:13:40 PM3/12/15
to
On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 11:52:12 -0400, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>>
>>And, priced it (and particularly fittings) recently????
> Even black pipe - try to get a gasfitter to install it today.
>
I have not lived where there is Natural gas, for years now. What are
>>
>>And, priced it (and particularly fittings) recently????
> Even black pipe - try to get a gasfitter to install it today.
>
they now using to pipe it? I thought it was still black iron pipe? Any
form of plastic would be my LAST choice for gas. If for no other
reason, the black iron would hold up much longer than any plastic during
a house fire. The extra minutes could make a huge difference during the
time the FD is coming and they shut off the gas.
I have propane gas, and I am allowed to use copper or black iron.
That's all..... (not including the flex pipes behind a range, which are
often brass).
>And take into account virtually no (Canadian, anyway) insurance
>company is willing to write new business on a building with ANY
>galvanized waterpipe or cast iron sewer pipe. (for good reason, I
>might add!!!)
and even more have cast iron sewer stacks. They have worked flawlessly
for years and years. But then again, Insurance Companies know little
about construction. All they know is how to get people's money, and
rarely give much of it back.
In a house fire, usually the last thing still standing, is the cast iron
stack. And if a fire starts in (for example) the basement of a home,
and the owner uses his garden hose to put out the fire, (from outdoor,
thru a window), before the FD arrives, which pipe will last longer, iron
pipe of a plastic material, when the flames are crawling along the floor
joists? Of course the metal pipe will!
But you said "Canadian". Apparently they allow their insurance
companies to make laws based on which industry pays them more. It
appears the PEX and PVC (Plastics companies) paid them off better than
the steel/iron industry.....
Oren
Mar 12, 2015, 3:17:36 PM3/12/15
to
On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 14:12:25 -0600, Jerr...@spamblocked.com wrote:
>I have not lived where there is Natural gas, for years now. What are
>they now using to pipe it?
PEX! Check it out. Meter to the house. Imagine that.
>I have not lived where there is Natural gas, for years now. What are
>they now using to pipe it?
dpb
Mar 12, 2015, 3:29:47 PM3/12/15
to
On 03/12/2015 3:12 PM, Jerr...@spamblocked.com wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 11:52:12 -0400, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
>>>
>>> And, priced it (and particularly fittings) recently????
>> Even black pipe - try to get a gasfitter to install it today.
>>
>
> I have not lived where there is Natural gas, for years now. What are
> they now using to pipe it? I thought it was still black iron pipe? Any
> form of plastic would be my LAST choice for gas. If for no other
> reason, the black iron would hold up much longer than any plastic during
> a house fire. The extra minutes could make a huge difference during the
> time the FD is coming and they shut off the gas.
>
> I have propane gas, and I am allowed to use copper or black iron.
> That's all..... (not including the flex pipes behind a range, which are
> often brass).
...
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 11:52:12 -0400, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
>>>
>>> And, priced it (and particularly fittings) recently????
>> Even black pipe - try to get a gasfitter to install it today.
>>
>
> I have not lived where there is Natural gas, for years now. What are
> they now using to pipe it? I thought it was still black iron pipe? Any
> form of plastic would be my LAST choice for gas. If for no other
> reason, the black iron would hold up much longer than any plastic during
> a house fire. The extra minutes could make a huge difference during the
> time the FD is coming and they shut off the gas.
>
> I have propane gas, and I am allowed to use copper or black iron.
> That's all..... (not including the flex pipes behind a range, which are
> often brass).
5. GAS PIPING MATERIALS: These recommendations apply to
all gas piping run on the customer’s side of the meter. Since gas
piping will form a permanent part of the building, inside and
above ground piping shall be standard weight iron or steel
(galvanized or black), malleable iron fittings and approved shutoff
valves or corrugated stainless steel tubing system. For ferrous
gas piping underground installation see Page 32.
Copper pipe or tubing shall not be installed in any piping for
gas.
6. PLASTIC PIPING MATERIAL: Plastic polyethylene pipe
materials and compression couplings must be approved for
natural gas applications and must be installed underground.
All plastic pipe and fittings must conform to ASTM D2513 ( 60
psi and above high density pipe approved 3408).
--
trader_4
Mar 12, 2015, 3:42:25 PM3/12/15
to
On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 3:13:40 PM UTC-4, Jerr...@spamblocked.com wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 11:52:12 -0400, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
> >>
> >>And, priced it (and particularly fittings) recently????
> > Even black pipe - try to get a gasfitter to install it today.
> >
>
> I have not lived where there is Natural gas, for years now. What are
> they now using to pipe it? I thought it was still black iron pipe?
For underground typically plastic. For inside, either black pipe
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 11:52:12 -0400, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
> >>
> >>And, priced it (and particularly fittings) recently????
> > Even black pipe - try to get a gasfitter to install it today.
> >
>
> I have not lived where there is Natural gas, for years now. What are
> they now using to pipe it? I thought it was still black iron pipe?
or corrogated stainless steel tubing. Black pipe doesn't work well
underground. I was living in a condo complex in the 90s, within about
5 years of being built, the underground black pipe between meter and
units was failing. I wouldn't believe it could get so bad so quick,
if I hadn't seen it myself. The pipe was like swiss cheese. The pipe
was supposed to be wrapped in tape, coated in tar, to protect it from
water. You could see what they did. The top of the pipe was coated,
with tar runnning off it. In other words, they just poured some over
it while the trench was still open. Seeing that, even if it was done
properly, it wouldn't be my first choice. I'd go with the plastic for
underground.
Any
> form of plastic would be my LAST choice for gas. If for no other
> reason, the black iron would hold up much longer than any plastic during
> a house fire. The extra minutes could make a huge difference during the
> time the FD is coming and they shut off the gas.
>
> I have propane gas, and I am allowed to use copper or black iron.
> That's all..... (not including the flex pipes behind a range, which are
> often brass).
>
> >And take into account virtually no (Canadian, anyway) insurance
> >company is willing to write new business on a building with ANY
> >galvanized waterpipe or cast iron sewer pipe. (for good reason, I
> >might add!!!)
>
> At least half the homes in the US have existing galvanized water pipes
> and even more have cast iron sewer stacks.
typical. Even in the 60s I don't recall seeing galvanized used anymore.
> They have worked flawlessly
> for years and years.
25 years they were screwed, from rusting/corrosion, the pipe becoming
constricted.
But then again, Insurance Companies know little
> about construction. All they know is how to get people's money, and
> rarely give much of it back.
>
> In a house fire, usually the last thing still standing, is the cast iron
> stack. And if a fire starts in (for example) the basement of a home,
> and the owner uses his garden hose to put out the fire, (from outdoor,
> thru a window), before the FD arrives, which pipe will last longer, iron
> pipe of a plastic material, when the flames are crawling along the floor
> joists? Of course the metal pipe will!
>
> But you said "Canadian". Apparently they allow their insurance
> companies to make laws based on which industry pays them more. It
> appears the PEX and PVC (Plastics companies) paid them off better than
> the steel/iron industry.....
their analysis, set their rates on experience with claims.
Oren
Mar 12, 2015, 3:50:18 PM3/12/15
to
On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 14:29:29 -0500, dpb <no...@non.net> wrote:
>6. PLASTIC PIPING MATERIAL: Plastic polyethylene pipe
>materials and compression couplings must be approved for
>natural gas applications and must be installed underground.
>All plastic pipe and fittings must conform to ASTM D2513 ( 60
>psi and above high density pipe approved 3408).
PEX and NG have expansion connections. No crimp rings, that I've seen.
>6. PLASTIC PIPING MATERIAL: Plastic polyethylene pipe
>materials and compression couplings must be approved for
>natural gas applications and must be installed underground.
>All plastic pipe and fittings must conform to ASTM D2513 ( 60
>psi and above high density pipe approved 3408).
Expand the PEX and it contracts on the fitting.
dpb
Mar 12, 2015, 3:59:48 PM3/12/15
to
given utility/jurisdiction accepts newer materials methods is quite
variable...
--
dpb
Mar 12, 2015, 4:06:59 PM3/12/15
to
On 03/12/2015 2:42 PM, trader_4 wrote:
...
> I doubt anyone is paying off the insurance companies. They make
> their analysis, set their rates on experience with claims.
Oh, I don't doubt there's payoffs involved (lobbying is a way of life up
...
> I doubt anyone is paying off the insurance companies. They make
> their analysis, set their rates on experience with claims.
north as well as down here I'd guess :) ) but it just doesn't make sense
there would be a very large class of standard building practice that
isn't insurable simply for being of that particular construction and/or
vintage. Then is where there would be so much hue and cry the
regulators would step in.
I'd be curious to know the actual conditions but I'm thinking it must be
something much more like the situation I described where the whole
structure is to the point of being uninsurable for a host of reasons,
not just galvanized potable water plumbing on its own. Just doesn't
make sense there wouldn't be so much as to be an untenable position to
take and unreasonable expectation to force everybody in the situation to
change.
Can see that it could be replaced as acceptable in new building or in
extensive remodeling as is, say, some wiring practices but it would be
over the top to require ripping it out while still functional.
--
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Mar 12, 2015, 5:22:46 PM3/12/15
to
all kinds of houses with 1) cast iron stacks 2) knob and tube wiring
3)galvanized water pipes 4) services less than 100 amps, 5) houses
with woodburning stoves as primary source of heat or un-certified
woodburning appliances and 6) houses with aluminum wiring and no
current inspection having trouble getting insurance coverage,
If you are already insured they cannot or will not stop covering you,
but if you buy a house with any of these "problems", good luck. Might
get away with one, but 2 or more and if you get coverage it WILL be
expensive.
dpb
Mar 12, 2015, 5:28:17 PM3/12/15
to
it seems like given the number of houses of the age a general
prohibition en toto would raise such a hullabaloo that there would be
riots in the streets.
Sounds to me like most of the problems in the above cases would really
be electrical, not plumbing from an underwriting risk.
As in my related story, that we don't try to skrimp on; the plumbing can
get by with in many cases at least for main stacks.
--
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Mar 12, 2015, 5:54:23 PM3/12/15
to
here in Canada, cast plumbing stacks and galvanized pipes are a very
high risk. When cast iron rots from the inside you don't see there is
a problem untill the "shit hits the floor", Galvanized water pipes
also deteriorate from the inside - where the damage cannot be seen
untill the pipe fails, spraying water everywhwere. Doesn't help when
you have "agressive" water either.
Losses from water damage caused by old iron pipes by far excedes the
damage caused by old/bad wiring..
Don't believe me? Check out
:http://www.grassroots.ca/homeowner_help_articles/homeowners-insurance.php
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Mar 12, 2015, 6:02:42 PM3/12/15
to
>On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 11:52:12 -0400, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
>>>
>>>And, priced it (and particularly fittings) recently????
>> Even black pipe - try to get a gasfitter to install it today.
>>
>
>I have not lived where there is Natural gas, for years now. What are
>they now using to pipe it? I thought it was still black iron pipe? Any
>form of plastic would be my LAST choice for gas. If for no other
>reason, the black iron would hold up much longer than any plastic during
>a house fire. The extra minutes could make a huge difference during the
>time the FD is coming and they shut off the gas.
They all want to use the corrugated flexible stanless steerl crap with
>
>>>
>>>And, priced it (and particularly fittings) recently????
>> Even black pipe - try to get a gasfitter to install it today.
>>
>
>I have not lived where there is Natural gas, for years now. What are
>they now using to pipe it? I thought it was still black iron pipe? Any
>form of plastic would be my LAST choice for gas. If for no other
>reason, the black iron would hold up much longer than any plastic during
>a house fire. The extra minutes could make a huge difference during the
>time the FD is coming and they shut off the gas.
the yellow plastic covering.
>
>I have propane gas, and I am allowed to use copper or black iron.
>That's all..... (not including the flex pipes behind a range, which are
>often brass).
>
>>And take into account virtually no (Canadian, anyway) insurance
>>company is willing to write new business on a building with ANY
>>galvanized waterpipe or cast iron sewer pipe. (for good reason, I
>>might add!!!)
>
>At least half the homes in the US have existing galvanized water pipes
>and even more have cast iron sewer stacks. They have worked flawlessly
>for years and years. But then again, Insurance Companies know little
>about construction. All they know is how to get people's money, and
>rarely give much of it back.
>
>In a house fire, usually the last thing still standing, is the cast iron
>stack. And if a fire starts in (for example) the basement of a home,
>and the owner uses his garden hose to put out the fire, (from outdoor,
>thru a window), before the FD arrives, which pipe will last longer, iron
>pipe of a plastic material, when the flames are crawling along the floor
>joists? Of course the metal pipe will!
>
>But you said "Canadian". Apparently they allow their insurance
>companies to make laws based on which industry pays them more. It
>appears the PEX and PVC (Plastics companies) paid them off better than
>the steel/iron industry.....
>
No pay-ffs. And the insurance companies are regulated.
>I have propane gas, and I am allowed to use copper or black iron.
>That's all..... (not including the flex pipes behind a range, which are
>often brass).
>
>>And take into account virtually no (Canadian, anyway) insurance
>>company is willing to write new business on a building with ANY
>>galvanized waterpipe or cast iron sewer pipe. (for good reason, I
>>might add!!!)
>
>At least half the homes in the US have existing galvanized water pipes
>and even more have cast iron sewer stacks. They have worked flawlessly
>for years and years. But then again, Insurance Companies know little
>about construction. All they know is how to get people's money, and
>rarely give much of it back.
>
>In a house fire, usually the last thing still standing, is the cast iron
>stack. And if a fire starts in (for example) the basement of a home,
>and the owner uses his garden hose to put out the fire, (from outdoor,
>thru a window), before the FD arrives, which pipe will last longer, iron
>pipe of a plastic material, when the flames are crawling along the floor
>joists? Of course the metal pipe will!
>
>But you said "Canadian". Apparently they allow their insurance
>companies to make laws based on which industry pays them more. It
>appears the PEX and PVC (Plastics companies) paid them off better than
>the steel/iron industry.....
>
I've personally seen a lot of cast iron drain/waste pipe failures and
have had to repair a few of them. I've seen a LOT of failed galvanized
water pipe too, and have been involved in repairing them. Go to remove
the damaged pipe and it breaks 6 feet away. Get it all patched up and
turn on the water and you find another fitting cracked just beyond
the last repair. I finally convinced my friend to replace the entire
run with copper, all across the basement. (was piping to the laundry).
When he redid the upstairs bathroom, he had to replace both hot and
cold rizers up the wall, which meant he also had to redo the kitchen
pipes - and they put plastic drains in at the same time (the cast iron
had rust blisters all over)
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Mar 12, 2015, 6:58:41 PM3/12/15
to
business on a building with ANY galvanized waterpipe or cast iron
sewer pipe.". This means you cannot change insurers or buy the house
and have it insured, and liability-wize the plumbing has a higher loss
ratio than the wiring by a significant amount.
Vic Smith
Mar 12, 2015, 8:18:10 PM3/12/15
to
old. No leaks, but it's reducing in flow.
PEX doesn't meet code here. Must be galvanized or copper.
I'll replace it myself later this year. With galvanized.
It'll cost me about $150 for pipe and fittings.
Or $250 if I buy cutting dies and pipe cutter. Probably go that way.
Jerr...@spamblocked.com
Mar 12, 2015, 11:51:48 PM3/12/15
to
On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 18:02:37 -0400, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>No pay-ffs. And the insurance companies are regulated.
>
That's what they say, but they are just like the government, they kiss
>No pay-ffs. And the insurance companies are regulated.
>
butt to those who pay them off...... The "regulated" part os just what
they want us to believe.....
>I've personally seen a lot of cast iron drain/waste pipe failures and
>have had to repair a few of them. I've seen a LOT of failed galvanized
>water pipe too, and have been involved in repairing them. Go to remove
>the damaged pipe and it breaks 6 feet away. Get it all patched up and
>turn on the water and you find another fitting cracked just beyond
>the last repair. I finally convinced my friend to replace the entire
>run with copper, all across the basement. (was piping to the laundry).
>When he redid the upstairs bathroom, he had to replace both hot and
>cold rizers up the wall, which meant he also had to redo the kitchen
>pipes - and they put plastic drains in at the same time (the cast iron
>had rust blisters all over)
the 80's. I have seen it all. I worked in a large city where many
homes were close to 100 years old. I ran into a lot of crap plumbing.
But the type of city water did not seem to clog the really old
galvanized pipes too much. Yet, in the suburbs where many people had
wells (including my parents home), those galv pipes were very clogged.
An yea, they could be a huge pain to fix. I can count the number of
times I'd fix tht stuff in my parents home, and for days afterwards the
faucet strainers were filling up with rust chunks. My dad was very
stubborn about changing all of the pipes. But one time I had a bunch of
copper pipe left over from a job, and I just replaced the main from the
meter to everything in the basement and water heater. I only left the
galv rizer pipes inside the walls. Dad was shocked to see how much
pressure there was. And his original galv. pipes were only about 35
years old.
But in the city with the city water, some of those pipes were 50, 60,
even 70 years old and still worked well. What I hated were those lead
pipes. When I encountered them, if they had a leak, I would buy a screw
on adaptor, and connect copper or galv pipes from there on. The lead
rarely sprung a leak, but I never got the knack of repairing them. I
did however learn to lead together cast iron drain pipes, and in fact I
enjoyed doing them. I rarely encountered bad cast iron pipes, but did a
few times. Most of my leading was on broken toilet flanges, and a few
times to modify the stack pipes for an addition.
As far as drain pipes, I never thought twice about replacing them with
PVC. Those galv drain pipes were always a problem and clogged easily.
It was much easier to just replace them than repair the galv. pipes.
But generally I left the cast iron stack alone.
I did have one unusual situation. Two very elderly women lived together
and told me that none of the sinks or bathtub drain had worked in 15
years. They had bucketed the water out of the door or window all those
years. But they kept dumping draino and other chemicals down the drains
for all of those 15 years. I quickly found that no snake or anything
else would go down those pipes, and as soon as my pipe wrench touched
any of them, they just fell apart. Those pipes were like swiss cheese.
I went to the basement of this 2 story home, and decided to replace all
the 1-1/2" galv drain pipes all the way to the second floor. I told the
owners I had to rip out some walls, and they would need to get a
plasterer. They agreed. When I went to the basement to remove one of
the main pipes, I put the wrench on it, and the pipe broke off the cast
iron stack. Moments later the entire stack and most of the galv pipes
from inside the walls came crashing down. I got hit by a large section
of pipe, and almost got knocked out. But worse yet was all that crud
that poured all over me, which had all those chemicals. It hot in my
eyes, burned my skin real badly, and I ended up ripping off my clothing
in that basement and using a hose from the laundry tub to wash myself
off. I found a blanket in that basement, wrapped myself in it and drove
to the hospital ER. After being treated, I called those women and
explained what happened and why I left without telling them.
It took me several days for my eyes to recover and I had burns all over
parts of my body. It was not for at least a week I went back to that
job, with a sawsall grinder and a rented cutting torch and just removed
everything. Even the vent pipe in the attic was full of holes.
Apparently the fumes from all those chemicals ate that up.
I ended up replacing every drain pipe in the home, used a fernco to
couple 4" PVC to the cast iron stub 3" above the basement floor, and had
to install a new vent pipe out of the roof. Then I had to haev a roofer
come and patch around the roof flashing, because that was a very steep
and high roof and I was not going up there. It turned out to be a
costly job for those women, and they still needed to get a plasterer to
replace considerable wall damage. And I really tried hard to not take
out too much of the walls and ceilings. But almost every fixture,
toilets and everything had to be removed...
That was the worst plumbing job I ever did.
On top of all the building damage, those women had all sorts of antiques
in that basement and much was ruined by all that crud and chemicals.
Yet those women were understanding. I explained to them that those
chemicals had destroyed all the pipes and they understood.
I was never more glad to leave that job for the last time.
Jerr...@spamblocked.com
Mar 13, 2015, 12:04:50 AM3/13/15
to
On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 19:18:05 -0500, Vic Smith
<thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>>I prefer copper but with all the copper theft, I'd prolly choose PEX.
>>
>>There's always galvanized steel pipe. Time tested and lasts 50 years or
>>more.
>
>Depends on water quality. Here it's soft. My galvanized is 56 years
>old. No leaks, but it's reducing in flow.
>PEX doesn't meet code here. Must be galvanized or copper.
>I'll replace it myself later this year. With galvanized.
>It'll cost me about $150 for pipe and fittings.
>Or $250 if I buy cutting dies and pipe cutter. Probably go that way.
I did not know there were still places that do not allow PEX !!!!
<thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>>I prefer copper but with all the copper theft, I'd prolly choose PEX.
>>
>>There's always galvanized steel pipe. Time tested and lasts 50 years or
>>more.
>
>Depends on water quality. Here it's soft. My galvanized is 56 years
>old. No leaks, but it's reducing in flow.
>PEX doesn't meet code here. Must be galvanized or copper.
>I'll replace it myself later this year. With galvanized.
>It'll cost me about $150 for pipe and fittings.
>Or $250 if I buy cutting dies and pipe cutter. Probably go that way.
I'm also curious where you live?
Cutting your own pipe is much cheaper and saves time running to the
hardware or plumbing stores to get special lengths cut. Since galv is
not used much anymore, look on Craigslist - Ebay, etc for used threading
tools. I have a complete set of that stuff from when I was in business,
and I see those tools sold cheaply at auctions all the time.
I'm curious why you're not using copper? It's easier to use. CPVC is
easier and cheaper yet, but dont let that stuff freeze. But I bet they
dont allow that either....
Vic Smith
Mar 13, 2015, 2:50:53 AM3/13/15
to
On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 23:03:26 -0600, Jerr...@spamblocked.com wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 19:18:05 -0500, Vic Smith
><thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I prefer copper but with all the copper theft, I'd prolly choose PEX.
>>>
>>>There's always galvanized steel pipe. Time tested and lasts 50 years or
>>>more.
>>
>>Depends on water quality. Here it's soft. My galvanized is 56 years
>>old. No leaks, but it's reducing in flow.
>>PEX doesn't meet code here. Must be galvanized or copper.
>>I'll replace it myself later this year. With galvanized.
>>It'll cost me about $150 for pipe and fittings.
>>Or $250 if I buy cutting dies and pipe cutter. Probably go that way.
>
>I did not know there were still places that do not allow PEX !!!!
>I'm also curious where you live?
>
Morton Grove, IL. It's Cook county and probably closely follows
>On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 19:18:05 -0500, Vic Smith
><thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I prefer copper but with all the copper theft, I'd prolly choose PEX.
>>>
>>>There's always galvanized steel pipe. Time tested and lasts 50 years or
>>>more.
>>
>>Depends on water quality. Here it's soft. My galvanized is 56 years
>>old. No leaks, but it's reducing in flow.
>>PEX doesn't meet code here. Must be galvanized or copper.
>>I'll replace it myself later this year. With galvanized.
>>It'll cost me about $150 for pipe and fittings.
>>Or $250 if I buy cutting dies and pipe cutter. Probably go that way.
>
>I did not know there were still places that do not allow PEX !!!!
>I'm also curious where you live?
>
Chicago code. Anyway, I looked at the code.
>Cutting your own pipe is much cheaper and saves time running to the
>hardware or plumbing stores to get special lengths cut. Since galv is
>not used much anymore, look on Craigslist - Ebay, etc for used threading
>tools. I have a complete set of that stuff from when I was in business,
>and I see those tools sold cheaply at auctions all the time.
>
>I'm curious why you're not using copper? It's easier to use. CPVC is
>easier and cheaper yet, but dont let that stuff freeze. But I bet they
>dont allow that either....
>
about the same cost so I may go with it. I'll decide later.
I've done a lot of steel pipe, and it's easy for me. But copper
should be easier.
My Ridgid dies/cutter were stolen long ago. I really don't care to
buy another set.
Scott Lurndal
Mar 13, 2015, 9:27:11 AM3/13/15
to
trader_4 <tra...@optonline.net> writes:
>On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 3:13:40 PM UTC-4, Jerr...@spamblocked.com wrote:
>> I have propane gas, and I am allowed to use copper or black iron.
>> That's all..... (not including the flex pipes behind a range, which are
>> often brass).
>
>Many places allow galvanized now too.
>
The main problem with galvy is the propensity for zinc flakes
>On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 3:13:40 PM UTC-4, Jerr...@spamblocked.com wrote:
>> I have propane gas, and I am allowed to use copper or black iron.
>> That's all..... (not including the flex pipes behind a range, which are
>> often brass).
>
>Many places allow galvanized now too.
>
to clog burner orifices.
Scott Lurndal
Mar 13, 2015, 9:31:51 AM3/13/15
to
cl...@snyder.on.ca writes:
> Like I said in my first post - they "y is willing to write new
>business on a building with ANY galvanized waterpipe or cast iron
>sewer pipe.". This means you cannot change insurers or buy the house
>and have it insured, and liability-wize the plumbing has a higher loss
>ratio than the wiring by a significant amount.
The why's and wherefore's of canadian homeowners insurance:
> Like I said in my first post - they "y is willing to write new
>business on a building with ANY galvanized waterpipe or cast iron
>sewer pipe.". This means you cannot change insurers or buy the house
>and have it insured, and liability-wize the plumbing has a higher loss
>ratio than the wiring by a significant amount.
http://www.fsco.gov.on.ca/en/insurance/brochures/documents/brochures-11.pdf
trader_4
Mar 13, 2015, 9:34:46 AM3/13/15
to
as one of the theoretically reasons that some places don't allow
galvanized, but it seems very unlikely to me. And if it's so, why
is it that galvanized is now allowed and used in many places for nat
gas, including here?
dpb
Mar 13, 2015, 11:03:05 AM3/13/15
to
any definitive reasons, either.
The problem w/ the flaking hypothesis (which have heard before too but
never found really documented in a utility handbook/standard) in my mind
is the galvanizing is on the outside of the pipe, they inside is just
black pipe...
I've seen some talk of some reaction w/ trace impurities and the zinc
and all kinds of other speculation but never any clear cut explanation.
--
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Mar 13, 2015, 4:26:03 PM3/13/15
to
galvanizing is different, and it has been proven that the actual
incidence of zinc flaking is very low. Also, code now requires a
"condensate drip trap" before all gas appliances, where the flakes and
any other "fall-out" accumulates.
That's my "best read" of the situation. All of my gas is black pipe
except for one little LB that is galvanized because that's all I had,
and all I DIDN"T have in black pipe when I replaced the water heater.
Been 57 months now, and the water heater hasn't gone out yet - - -.
trader_4
Mar 14, 2015, 10:00:24 AM3/14/15
to
nothing new. Like DPB, I've never seen anything that established
the alleged zinc flaking to begin with.
> That's my "best read" of the situation. All of my gas is black pipe
> except for one little LB that is galvanized because that's all I had,
> and all I DIDN"T have in black pipe when I replaced the water heater.
> Been 57 months now, and the water heater hasn't gone out yet - - -.
company at the meter.
dpb
Mar 14, 2015, 10:34:26 AM3/14/15
to
On 03/14/2015 9:00 AM, trader_4 wrote:
> On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 4:26:03 PM UTC-4, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 10:02:43 -0500, dpb<no...@non.net> wrote:
...[re: ? galvanized prohibition for NG]...
> On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 4:26:03 PM UTC-4, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 10:02:43 -0500, dpb<no...@non.net> wrote:
>>> I've done some looking at various times in the past and have never found
>>> any definitive reasons, either.
>>>
>>> The problem w/ the flaking hypothesis (which have heard before too but
>>> never found really documented in a utility handbook/standard) in my mind
>>> is the galvanizing is on the outside of the pipe, they inside is just
>>> black pipe...
>>>
>>> I've seen some talk of some reaction w/ trace impurities and the zinc
>>> and all kinds of other speculation but never any clear cut explanation.
>> The natural gas today is lower sulphur than in the past, the
>> galvanizing is different, and it has been proven that the actual
>> incidence of zinc flaking is very low. Also, code now requires a
>> "condensate drip trap" before all gas appliances, where the flakes and
>> any other "fall-out" accumulates.
>
> The trap has been there on gas lines for a very long time, it's
> nothing new. Like DPB, I've never seen anything that established
> the alleged zinc flaking to begin with.
>
>> That's my "best read" of the situation. All of my gas is black pipe
>> except for one little LB that is galvanized because that's all I had,
>> and all I DIDN"T have in black pipe when I replaced the water heater.
>> Been 57 months now, and the water heater hasn't gone out yet - - -.
>
> There is plenty of galvanized around here too, including by the gas
> company at the meter.
related to where the gas came from...lower at one place is probably
simply owing to a different source as supplies have changed...as the
Hugoton field around here has depleted over the past 80 years some wells
have started to produce some H2S which is toxic in concentrations of
roughly 300 ppm or so but standards generally require "sweet gas"
concentrations of 25 ppm or less; most take it down farther than that to
the 5-10 ppm levels. Doing that also cleans up other impurities. I
don't know that residential supply standards have changed significantly
in 50 yr or more so really don't think that's a real factor.
Agree on the drip taps; they've been installed here from the time first
got the first feed off the pipeline that Grandpa got in part for the
right-of-way across the land back in the mid-30s. I swapped out a water
heater a couple of years ago that had been in place since, afaik, folks
remodeled the house in the early 80s and there was neither any moisture
nor any discernible solids in the bottom of it after all that time, but
it was there just in case.
The lines are mostly black iron; I do not know what the half-mile or so
of line from the pipeline connection in the pasture to the farmstead
actually is; I don't remember altho I _think_ I recall that Dad ran a
new line back in early 60s when we put in the feedlot and a grain dryer
but I don't remember what it was...I keep waiting for it to develop a
leak and have to replace it...
--
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Mar 14, 2015, 11:16:01 AM3/14/15
to
with welded and wrapped joints. Stuff lasted virtually forever because
there was no oxygen contact to the iron.
dpb
Mar 14, 2015, 12:32:29 PM3/14/15
to
On 03/14/2015 10:15 AM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
...
>> The lines are mostly black iron; I do not know what the half-mile or so
>> of line from the pipeline connection in the pasture to the farmstead
>> actually is; I don't remember altho I _think_ I recall that Dad ran a
>> new line back in early 60s when we put in the feedlot and a grain dryer
>> but I don't remember what it was...I keep waiting for it to develop a
>> leak and have to replace it...
> Generally the old underground stuff was bitumen coated black iron,
> with welded and wrapped joints. Stuff lasted virtually forever because
> there was no oxygen contact to the iron.
I've no idea; it's only bare black iron where the feeds come above
ground but I've not had reason to disturb the ground so no idea what was
laid or even who actually laid it. Since it's service from the meter
(which is a relatively recent addition that the pipeline companies got a
way to break the original right-of-way agreement of un-metered farmstead
use when Panhandle Eastern sold the line) I'm certain a new line was
laid by dad and not the pipeline company; I don't know if one of the
conditions grandpa also got was for them to run the feed line to the
house when they laid the big line or not; I'd presume that would have
been too much even then.
--
...
>> The lines are mostly black iron; I do not know what the half-mile or so
>> of line from the pipeline connection in the pasture to the farmstead
>> actually is; I don't remember altho I _think_ I recall that Dad ran a
>> new line back in early 60s when we put in the feedlot and a grain dryer
>> but I don't remember what it was...I keep waiting for it to develop a
>> leak and have to replace it...
> Generally the old underground stuff was bitumen coated black iron,
> with welded and wrapped joints. Stuff lasted virtually forever because
> there was no oxygen contact to the iron.
ground but I've not had reason to disturb the ground so no idea what was
laid or even who actually laid it. Since it's service from the meter
(which is a relatively recent addition that the pipeline companies got a
way to break the original right-of-way agreement of un-metered farmstead
use when Panhandle Eastern sold the line) I'm certain a new line was
laid by dad and not the pipeline company; I don't know if one of the
conditions grandpa also got was for them to run the feed line to the
house when they laid the big line or not; I'd presume that would have
been too much even then.
--
Jerr...@spamblocked.com
Mar 14, 2015, 3:40:37 PM3/14/15
to
with emory cloth on the pipe, and buy one of those metal brushes to
clean inside the fittings (one for each size pipe). Apply appropriate
flux, and get plumbing solder (lead free is all they use now).
Dont try to solder with a standard propane torch. They are not hot
enough. Get a propane TURBO torch. I prefer the ones that have a hose
from the tank to the head. Much easier to use in tight places.
Heat the fitting quickly apply the solder and as soon as it flows, stop
heating the pipe. Wiping the joint with a wet cloth makes a better
looking joint. Be sure to wear leather or welding gloves. Hot solder
likes to drip and splatter and burn your hands and arms.
If you have to sweat very near a wall or timber, clamp, position, or
somehow place a piece of tin behind the joint. They also sell asbestos
pads (or have those been banned lately?). The best way to solder
something that is real close to a wall or wood, is to pre-solder. In
other words, fit all the pieces before soldering them. Then use a
pencil to mark each fitting to the pipe, so they can be properly
soldered where they belong. Then remove that section of pipe and
fittings, and solder it on your basement floor or outdoors, or anywhere
safe. Then simply put that whole section against the wall or rafters,
and just solder the compelte section where it's easy to make the joint.
I suggest always having a wet cloth, spray bottle with water handy to
cool any wood that gets charred. And for a newcomer to sweating copper,
Have a fire extinguisher handy, or a garden hose connected to a live
source of water. (just in case)!
Hope this helps!
Oren
Mar 14, 2015, 4:36:48 PM3/14/15
to
On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 14:38:33 -0600, Jerr...@spamblocked.com wrote:
>Sweating copper is not all that hard.
Crimping PEX is easier. Or learn the hard way.
>Sweating copper is not all that hard.
--
"Cats haven't invented anything, as far as I'm aware of." - Greg Gutfeld
bob haller
Mar 14, 2015, 8:11:25 PM3/14/15
to
I used Mapp gas torch forever, it worked well.
one day my torch with near empty tank tipped over and broke.
so i bought a new tank and torch.
very poor performance.
Even with torch and tank upside down.
come to find out mapp gas is no longer mapp, its propane with some added volatiles.
I had a particular bad place to work on. so i upgraded to a pricey air acetelyne torch that is very hot and works wonderfully
one day my torch with near empty tank tipped over and broke.
so i bought a new tank and torch.
very poor performance.
Even with torch and tank upside down.
come to find out mapp gas is no longer mapp, its propane with some added volatiles.
I had a particular bad place to work on. so i upgraded to a pricey air acetelyne torch that is very hot and works wonderfully
trader_4
Mar 15, 2015, 10:36:26 AM3/15/15
to
I've seen welding done to join large gas mains, eg 12" diameter, but
never the typical small lines to a residence. Those are just black
pipe using couplings/fittings. They are supposed to be covered in a tar type
compound to protect them from corrosion. Like I said in the other post,
at a condo I saw black pipe that wasn't properly coated all fail in
as little as 5 years. There were 120 units where it was buried between
meter and inside. It was obvious that they just poured the tar compound
over it, didn't brush it on. The bottom of the pipes was uncoated. I
was shocked that it could fail so fast. It literally looked like swiss
cheese, holes everywhere. And not just one unit, almost all of them
were in bad shape. If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, I would never
believe it could fail so quickly. I would have thought it would be more
like 25 or 50 years. The builder was known to have cut corners and done
anything to save a buck. I wondered if he managed to get some inferior
Chinese crap black pipe. Another example of what he did was the wood
decks, instead of having footers, had a shovel of concrete thrown under
the posts. The building inspector was last seen heading to parts unknown.
And a decade later, the FBI found $50K in cash in the mayor's attic.....
Also interesting was we had a big discussion with the gas company as
to what the best replacement would be. This was early 90s. They were
as confused as we are. I remember we discussed galvanized vs black iron
and I don't recall they had a good answer either. We wound up replacing
it with black iron, this time properly wrapped and coated.
dpb
Mar 15, 2015, 11:01:22 AM3/15/15
to
On 03/15/2015 9:36 AM, trader_4 wrote:
...
> I don't know what size pipe he's talking about where it was welded.
> I've seen welding done to join large gas mains, eg 12" diameter, but
> never the typical small lines to a residence. Those are just black
> pipe using couplings/fittings. They are supposed to be covered in a tar type
> compound to protect them from corrosion. ...
I also was puzzled; I'd surely think never do such a thing on smaller
diameter than 6", either...it's been a while since I've been down in the
pasture where the meter actually sits closely enough to it and paid any
attention as to what that connection diameter is; I _think_ it's either
1-1/4 or 1-1/2"...I know it's certainly larger than a typical household
feed but not like a large industrial facility. It was put in to be
capable of supplying the grain dryer and the farrowing sheds, etc., as
well as just the houses, etc., so has a decent capacity. The run is
actually closer to a quarter-mile+ rather than half-mile I think I said
above; it's a half-mile to the end of the section line east but the line
crosses the native grass pasture fence into the farm ground about
halfway or so down there...it's got to angle back north a ways but
that's not all that far. So, there's some sizing for the pressure drop,
too...
I just don't know what was actually used but my guess would certainly be
black iron with traditional fittings. I suppose since it's been 50 yr
already or so it probably was wrapped/coated. The gas company does come
and do a sniffer walk along the general area where that feed line runs
occasionally; the pipeline companies (there are three; two separate
lines parallel each other just east of which the first is the one that
we get the supply from and a third parallels them roughly but is to the
west of the homestead a few hundred yards) fly the high pressure lines
every week.
> Also interesting was we had a big discussion with the gas company as
> to what the best replacement would be. This was early 90s. They were
> as confused as we are. I remember we discussed galvanized vs black iron
> and I don't recall they had a good answer either. We wound up replacing
> it with black iron, this time properly wrapped and coated.
I suspect possibly as well as perhaps inferior-quality pipe local soil
conditions could have exacerbated the corrosion problems...the regular
galvanized water lines to the feed lots laid at the same time have yet
to have any problems here, either, but I also keep waiting for one of
them to spring a leak...of course, there is still (I think) some much
older water distribution line in the yard and feeding the house; quite a
bit of it has been replaced/repaired over the 100 yrs and at this point
even dad wasn't sure just what was/wasn't. While we were still in TN
they had a line break and ended up that it didn't run the direction he
thought; they had to dig twice to get the right direction to isolate the
break back then. Unfortunately, afaict there are no notes he left on
that, either, so we'll at some point likely have another experience! :)
When had a septic field installed 10 yr or so ago, the fellow that laid
the drain line from the tank to it had to cross one of the yard feed
lines. It was full of pinholes but so tiny all the tree roots from the
Siberian elms plugged it from showing any major leaks. He ended up
having to replace about three joints to finally find a place where the
could make a solid connection he said--we went visiting the kids/g'kids
in TN while so had the run of the place and we didn't need to worry
about access while he did the work...
--
...
> I don't know what size pipe he's talking about where it was welded.
> I've seen welding done to join large gas mains, eg 12" diameter, but
> never the typical small lines to a residence. Those are just black
> pipe using couplings/fittings. They are supposed to be covered in a tar type
I also was puzzled; I'd surely think never do such a thing on smaller
diameter than 6", either...it's been a while since I've been down in the
pasture where the meter actually sits closely enough to it and paid any
attention as to what that connection diameter is; I _think_ it's either
1-1/4 or 1-1/2"...I know it's certainly larger than a typical household
feed but not like a large industrial facility. It was put in to be
capable of supplying the grain dryer and the farrowing sheds, etc., as
well as just the houses, etc., so has a decent capacity. The run is
actually closer to a quarter-mile+ rather than half-mile I think I said
above; it's a half-mile to the end of the section line east but the line
crosses the native grass pasture fence into the farm ground about
halfway or so down there...it's got to angle back north a ways but
that's not all that far. So, there's some sizing for the pressure drop,
too...
I just don't know what was actually used but my guess would certainly be
black iron with traditional fittings. I suppose since it's been 50 yr
already or so it probably was wrapped/coated. The gas company does come
and do a sniffer walk along the general area where that feed line runs
occasionally; the pipeline companies (there are three; two separate
lines parallel each other just east of which the first is the one that
we get the supply from and a third parallels them roughly but is to the
west of the homestead a few hundred yards) fly the high pressure lines
every week.
> Also interesting was we had a big discussion with the gas company as
> to what the best replacement would be. This was early 90s. They were
> as confused as we are. I remember we discussed galvanized vs black iron
> and I don't recall they had a good answer either. We wound up replacing
> it with black iron, this time properly wrapped and coated.
conditions could have exacerbated the corrosion problems...the regular
galvanized water lines to the feed lots laid at the same time have yet
to have any problems here, either, but I also keep waiting for one of
them to spring a leak...of course, there is still (I think) some much
older water distribution line in the yard and feeding the house; quite a
bit of it has been replaced/repaired over the 100 yrs and at this point
even dad wasn't sure just what was/wasn't. While we were still in TN
they had a line break and ended up that it didn't run the direction he
thought; they had to dig twice to get the right direction to isolate the
break back then. Unfortunately, afaict there are no notes he left on
that, either, so we'll at some point likely have another experience! :)
When had a septic field installed 10 yr or so ago, the fellow that laid
the drain line from the tank to it had to cross one of the yard feed
lines. It was full of pinholes but so tiny all the tree roots from the
Siberian elms plugged it from showing any major leaks. He ended up
having to replace about three joints to finally find a place where the
could make a solid connection he said--we went visiting the kids/g'kids
in TN while so had the run of the place and we didn't need to worry
about access while he did the work...
--
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Mar 15, 2015, 2:46:22 PM3/15/15
to
lines.
High pressure gas lines of any size are virtually ALWAYS welded.
Vic Smith
Mar 15, 2015, 3:12:59 PM3/15/15
to
reference. Thanks.
dpb
Mar 15, 2015, 3:48:38 PM3/15/15
to
On 03/15/2015 1:46 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 10:01:04 -0500, dpb<no...@non.net> wrote:
>> On 03/15/2015 9:36 AM, trader_4 wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> I don't know what size pipe he's talking about where it was welded.
>>> I've seen welding done to join large gas mains, eg 12" diameter, but
>>> never the typical small lines to a residence. Those are just black
>>> pipe using couplings/fittings. They are supposed to be covered in a tar type
>>> compound to protect them from corrosion. ...
>>
>> I also was puzzled; I'd surely think never do such a thing on smaller
>> diameter than 6", either......
> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 10:01:04 -0500, dpb<no...@non.net> wrote:
>> On 03/15/2015 9:36 AM, trader_4 wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> I don't know what size pipe he's talking about where it was welded.
>>> I've seen welding done to join large gas mains, eg 12" diameter, but
>>> never the typical small lines to a residence. Those are just black
>>> pipe using couplings/fittings. They are supposed to be covered in a tar type
>>> compound to protect them from corrosion. ...
>>
>> I also was puzzled; I'd surely think never do such a thing on smaller
...
> 4 inch and up MUST be welded. 2 inch and up are commonly welded
> lines.
Not sure where that's coming from...from the PSEG manual I quoted earlier...
> 4 inch and up MUST be welded. 2 inch and up are commonly welded
> lines.
"Steel piping up to and including 1-1/4 inches shall be of the threaded
construction with line pipe couplings. Steel pipe larger than 1-1/4
inches may be of threaded, welded or compression coupled construction."
The above is from the section applying to the customer side of the meter
for residential and similar installations.
I'm sure some industrial facilities have more stringent requirements as
I'm sure other jurisdictions may as well but considering it "common" for
lines as small as 2" to be welded for such an application strikes me as
"not likely" at least anywhere around here.
Of course, now anything new underground would be plastic.
> High pressure gas lines of any size are virtually ALWAYS welded.
--
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Mar 15, 2015, 8:53:40 PM3/15/15
to
On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:48:22 -0500, dpb <no...@non.net> wrote:
>On 03/15/2015 1:46 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 10:01:04 -0500, dpb<no...@non.net> wrote:
>>> On 03/15/2015 9:36 AM, trader_4 wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> I don't know what size pipe he's talking about where it was welded.
>>>> I've seen welding done to join large gas mains, eg 12" diameter, but
>>>> never the typical small lines to a residence. Those are just black
>>>> pipe using couplings/fittings. They are supposed to be covered in a tar type
>>>> compound to protect them from corrosion. ...
>>>
>>> I also was puzzled; I'd surely think never do such a thing on smaller
>>> diameter than 6", either......
>...
>> 4 inch and up MUST be welded. 2 inch and up are commonly welded
>> lines.
>
>Not sure where that's coming from...from the PSEG manual I quoted earlier...
>
>"Steel piping up to and including 1-1/4 inches shall be of the threaded
>construction with line pipe couplings. Steel pipe larger than 1-1/4
>inches may be of threaded, welded or compression coupled construction."
And that disagrees with what I said how??? You may find in some areas
>On 03/15/2015 1:46 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 10:01:04 -0500, dpb<no...@non.net> wrote:
>>> On 03/15/2015 9:36 AM, trader_4 wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> I don't know what size pipe he's talking about where it was welded.
>>>> I've seen welding done to join large gas mains, eg 12" diameter, but
>>>> never the typical small lines to a residence. Those are just black
>>>> pipe using couplings/fittings. They are supposed to be covered in a tar type
>>>> compound to protect them from corrosion. ...
>>>
>>> I also was puzzled; I'd surely think never do such a thing on smaller
>>> diameter than 6", either......
>...
>> 4 inch and up MUST be welded. 2 inch and up are commonly welded
>> lines.
>
>Not sure where that's coming from...from the PSEG manual I quoted earlier...
>
>"Steel piping up to and including 1-1/4 inches shall be of the threaded
>construction with line pipe couplings. Steel pipe larger than 1-1/4
>inches may be of threaded, welded or compression coupled construction."
1 1/4 to 4 inch pipe MAY be threaded - while in other areas all of
those, or most of them, will be welded.
I think if you look farther you will find 4" and up are never
threaded. However, very unlikely you will find large pipe on the
customer side of the meter, so your quote is irrelevent in the case of
the feeder line to the house IN MOST CASES, because, at least here,
the meter is at the house.
trader_4
Mar 16, 2015, 10:15:51 AM3/16/15
to
On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 8:53:40 PM UTC-4, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:48:22 -0500, dpb <no...@non.net> wrote:
>
> >On 03/15/2015 1:46 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> >> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 10:01:04 -0500, dpb<no...@non.net> wrote:
> >>> On 03/15/2015 9:36 AM, trader_4 wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>>
> >>>> I don't know what size pipe he's talking about where it was welded.
> >>>> I've seen welding done to join large gas mains, eg 12" diameter, but
> >>>> never the typical small lines to a residence. Those are just black
> >>>> pipe using couplings/fittings. They are supposed to be covered in a tar type
> >>>> compound to protect them from corrosion. ...
> >>>
> >>> I also was puzzled; I'd surely think never do such a thing on smaller
> >>> diameter than 6", either......
> >...
> >> 4 inch and up MUST be welded. 2 inch and up are commonly welded
> >> lines.
> >
> >Not sure where that's coming from...from the PSEG manual I quoted earlier...
> >
> >"Steel piping up to and including 1-1/4 inches shall be of the threaded
> >construction with line pipe couplings. Steel pipe larger than 1-1/4
> >inches may be of threaded, welded or compression coupled construction."
>
> And that disagrees with what I said how??? You may find in some areas
> 1 1/4 to 4 inch pipe MAY be threaded - while in other areas all of
> those, or most of them, will be welded.
I doubt you'd find many 1 1/4" or 2" gas pipe lines welded. I've
> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:48:22 -0500, dpb <no...@non.net> wrote:
>
> >On 03/15/2015 1:46 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> >> On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 10:01:04 -0500, dpb<no...@non.net> wrote:
> >>> On 03/15/2015 9:36 AM, trader_4 wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>>
> >>>> I don't know what size pipe he's talking about where it was welded.
> >>>> I've seen welding done to join large gas mains, eg 12" diameter, but
> >>>> never the typical small lines to a residence. Those are just black
> >>>> pipe using couplings/fittings. They are supposed to be covered in a tar type
> >>>> compound to protect them from corrosion. ...
> >>>
> >>> I also was puzzled; I'd surely think never do such a thing on smaller
> >>> diameter than 6", either......
> >...
> >> 4 inch and up MUST be welded. 2 inch and up are commonly welded
> >> lines.
> >
> >Not sure where that's coming from...from the PSEG manual I quoted earlier...
> >
> >"Steel piping up to and including 1-1/4 inches shall be of the threaded
> >construction with line pipe couplings. Steel pipe larger than 1-1/4
> >inches may be of threaded, welded or compression coupled construction."
>
> And that disagrees with what I said how??? You may find in some areas
> 1 1/4 to 4 inch pipe MAY be threaded - while in other areas all of
> those, or most of them, will be welded.
never seen one around here. For one thing,
it's a hell of a lot harder to weld a joint than it is to screw a coupling or fitting because to weld you need clear access all the way around the joint
to get to it. That means a wide trench spot if it's underground or substantial
clearance on all sides if it's inside a building. Given that those
pipes inside a building tend to run up against joists, inside walls,
etc, how would a welder get in there to weld it? Then factor in the fire
danger. Plus you need a welder, which is typically an additional truck
and a guy certified to weld gas pipes. The plumbers around here, I've never seen them show up with a welder. Where I have seen welding and then X-raying going on is on large, pressurized distribution lines. That's the other
factor left out here. If a 1 1/4 or 2" pipe is being welded, what pressure
is this pipe at? Is it the low pressure on the customer side, or some
high pressure application?
>
> I think if you look farther you will find 4" and up are never
> threaded. However, very unlikely you will find large pipe on the
> customer side of the meter, so your quote is irrelevent in the case of
> the feeder line to the house IN MOST CASES, because, at least here,
> the meter is at the house.
only customer side or high pressure, or both.
dpb
Mar 16, 2015, 10:50:48 AM3/16/15
to
>> I think if you look farther you will find 4" and up are never
>> threaded. However, very unlikely you will find large pipe on the
>> customer side of the meter, so your quote is irrelevent in the case of
>> the feeder line to the house IN MOST CASES, because, at least here,
>> the meter is at the house.
>
> It hasn't been clear to me for a while now whether we're talking about
> only customer side or high pressure, or both.
I think at this point he's mostly "just talking"...not that there's
>> threaded. However, very unlikely you will find large pipe on the
>> customer side of the meter, so your quote is irrelevent in the case of
>> the feeder line to the house IN MOST CASES, because, at least here,
>> the meter is at the house.
>
> It hasn't been clear to me for a while now whether we're talking about
> only customer side or high pressure, or both.
anything specifically "wrong", it just isn't particularly applicable to
the specifics at hand...back earlier at the beginnings of this subthread
I was trying to guesstimate what might have been done on this specific
line altho my gut feel is that more than likely it was laid by hand by
dad and used straightforward threaded connections. It was in a sidebar
that I was/am expecting to have to replace it most any time altho if it
was indeed really wrapped and coated maybe it'll be somebody else's
problem and not mine. :)
I've stated from the git-go this is the supply line _from_ the meter to
the farmstead which runs about a quarter-mile from where the meter is
located in the fence line of the native grass pasture where the main
high-pressure line crosses it before again crossing cultivated ground.
It is definitely under 2" but it's been long enough since I myself have
been close to the meter and paid any attention at all to it that I don't
really recall what it is there; the feeds that come above ground at the
various locations around the farmstead vary from 1/2" to 1-1/4"
depending...I've also never checked just what the feed pressure is in
that main; it's not line pressure by any stretch but it is higher than
end-pressure as there are regulators/reducers at each end point...
In general, if were installing welded underground, would think it would
be done basically as they do the larger lines; lay it out and do the
welds on the ground beside the trench then put the finished line in and
make the end connections.
I'd also grant for virtually any commercial or other large customer
today if were going to use iron it'd be a hired-out job or they would
have the facilities to do it in house and welding is likely what would
be done (altho I can't imagine anybody wouldn't use plastic these days)
but this was/is a farm installation that I'm guessing Dad did although
it is possible he hired it done that would be an unusual thing given his
penchant for doing anything and everything possible themselves as actual
money was tight; time was available.
On your comment regarding access issues I've seen some pretty creative
solutions in various power plants for nuclear-grade welding of steam
and/or water lines during outages... :) I've also seen some major
chunks of concrete/rebar taken out to get access when there was no other
way that had to be rebuilt afterwards.
--
Greg Mitchell
Aug 26, 2017, 10:44:13 AM8/26/17
to
replying to Paul Franklin, Greg Mitchell wrote:
Paul, as a licensed irrigators in Texas who only does irrigation repair, I
come frequently to jobs where plumber has replaced existing copper or pvc
water service line from meter to house with pex. They usually use 3/4". They
also install a tee fitting near the meter to feed into the irrigation backflow
device, (usually a double check valve), also using pex. The consequences of
restricting flow to the irrigation system is devastating, and requires the
plumber to repipe up to that tee and into the backflow device with copper or
occurred, then pex on into the house where maximum flow is not crucial.
--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/actual-pex-inside-diameter-size-825574-.htm
Paul, as a licensed irrigators in Texas who only does irrigation repair, I
come frequently to jobs where plumber has replaced existing copper or pvc
water service line from meter to house with pex. They usually use 3/4". They
also install a tee fitting near the meter to feed into the irrigation backflow
device, (usually a double check valve), also using pex. The consequences of
restricting flow to the irrigation system is devastating, and requires the
plumber to repipe up to that tee and into the backflow device with copper or
occurred, then pex on into the house where maximum flow is not crucial.
--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/actual-pex-inside-diameter-size-825574-.htm
Karmike
May 1, 2018, 8:14:07 AM5/1/18
to
replying to Jerry.Tan, Karmike wrote:
Practically all end fixtures have 3/8” inlets anyway making this a
non-issue.
Practically all end fixtures have 3/8” inlets anyway making this a
non-issue.
forum111
Oct 27, 2018, 9:14:07 PM10/27/18
to
replying to Jerry.Tan, forum111 wrote:
As others have said, there are a lot of variables that change with PEX vs.
copper. It's certainly no secret that PEX tubing has thicker walls while using
CTS (Copper Tubing Size) for a nominal dimension. PEX, copper, and CPVC pipe
with the same CTS will be the same on the outside, but not necessarily the
inside. And yeah, the barbed PEX fittings further reduce the inner diameter
and it's not something that seems to get stated all that often. Frequently I
find there isn't an ID listed in even the spec sheet for the barbed fittings I
come across. But as has also been stated, up-sizing is a common practice when
going from copper to PEX, especially if one is sticking with main lines and
branches as opposed to home runs. I'm a big fan of using 3/4" PEX wherever
1/2" copper is being replaced. For example, the ID of the 3/4" barbed fittings
I use end up being virtually identical to the ID of 1/2" Type L copper. In the
end this may net a slight performance increase over the existing copper plan
when it comes to the higher flow fixtures, but as long as there is no
performance decrease I can sleep at night.
As others have said, there are a lot of variables that change with PEX vs.
copper. It's certainly no secret that PEX tubing has thicker walls while using
CTS (Copper Tubing Size) for a nominal dimension. PEX, copper, and CPVC pipe
with the same CTS will be the same on the outside, but not necessarily the
inside. And yeah, the barbed PEX fittings further reduce the inner diameter
and it's not something that seems to get stated all that often. Frequently I
find there isn't an ID listed in even the spec sheet for the barbed fittings I
come across. But as has also been stated, up-sizing is a common practice when
going from copper to PEX, especially if one is sticking with main lines and
branches as opposed to home runs. I'm a big fan of using 3/4" PEX wherever
1/2" copper is being replaced. For example, the ID of the 3/4" barbed fittings
I use end up being virtually identical to the ID of 1/2" Type L copper. In the
end this may net a slight performance increase over the existing copper plan
when it comes to the higher flow fixtures, but as long as there is no
performance decrease I can sleep at night.
Mitchell Broussard
Jun 1, 2019, 5:44:06 PM6/1/19
to
replying to forum111, Mitchell Broussard wrote:
I recently gutted and remodeled a house on Toledo Bend. We tied in to a PVC
3/4'' line and reduced it down to 1/2'' Pex feeding the Hot water heater, BIG
MISTAKE!! No Volume, sure the toilets and Vanities work fine but the Shower
/tub doesnt. The problem i have now is everything is behind new drywall, and
hot water heater is in attic. We have been troubleshooting the water volume
problem and after reading all your comments, i know the problem is my incoming
line (too small). I'm either gonna go with 3/4'' PVC or hopefully i can get by
with 3/4'' PEX and use the Manifolds they sell like at Lowes, right????
I recently gutted and remodeled a house on Toledo Bend. We tied in to a PVC
3/4'' line and reduced it down to 1/2'' Pex feeding the Hot water heater, BIG
MISTAKE!! No Volume, sure the toilets and Vanities work fine but the Shower
/tub doesnt. The problem i have now is everything is behind new drywall, and
hot water heater is in attic. We have been troubleshooting the water volume
problem and after reading all your comments, i know the problem is my incoming
line (too small). I'm either gonna go with 3/4'' PVC or hopefully i can get by
with 3/4'' PEX and use the Manifolds they sell like at Lowes, right????
gfre...@aol.com
Jun 1, 2019, 8:27:37 PM6/1/19
to
On Sat, 01 Jun 2019 21:44:02 GMT, Mitchell Broussard
<caedfaa9ed1216d60ef...@example.com> wrote:
>replying to forum111, Mitchell Broussard wrote:
>I recently gutted and remodeled a house on Toledo Bend. We tied in to a PVC
>3/4'' line and reduced it down to 1/2'' Pex feeding the Hot water heater, BIG
>MISTAKE!! No Volume, sure the toilets and Vanities work fine but the Shower
>/tub doesnt. The problem i have now is everything is behind new drywall, and
>hot water heater is in attic. We have been troubleshooting the water volume
>problem and after reading all your comments, i know the problem is my incoming
>line (too small). I'm either gonna go with 3/4'' PVC or hopefully i can get by
>with 3/4'' PEX and use the Manifolds they sell like at Lowes, right????
PEX has the same problem as CPVC has. The nominal OD size is the same
<caedfaa9ed1216d60ef...@example.com> wrote:
>replying to forum111, Mitchell Broussard wrote:
>I recently gutted and remodeled a house on Toledo Bend. We tied in to a PVC
>3/4'' line and reduced it down to 1/2'' Pex feeding the Hot water heater, BIG
>MISTAKE!! No Volume, sure the toilets and Vanities work fine but the Shower
>/tub doesnt. The problem i have now is everything is behind new drywall, and
>hot water heater is in attic. We have been troubleshooting the water volume
>problem and after reading all your comments, i know the problem is my incoming
>line (too small). I'm either gonna go with 3/4'' PVC or hopefully i can get by
>with 3/4'' PEX and use the Manifolds they sell like at Lowes, right????
as copper pipe but the wall thickness is a lot thicker so the ID is
smaller.
Jack Legg
Jun 2, 2019, 6:39:39 AM6/2/19
to
On 6/1/19 5:44 PM, Mitchell Broussard wrote:
> replying to forum111, Mitchell Broussard wrote:
> I recently gutted and remodeled a house on Toledo Bend. We tied in to a PVC
> 3/4'' line and reduced it down to 1/2'' Pex feeding the Hot water heater, BIG
> MISTAKE!! No Volume, sure the toilets and Vanities work fine but the Shower
> /tub doesnt. The problem i have now is everything is behind new drywall,
And the plumbing inspector signed off on that abortion?
> replying to forum111, Mitchell Broussard wrote:
> I recently gutted and remodeled a house on Toledo Bend. We tied in to a PVC
> 3/4'' line and reduced it down to 1/2'' Pex feeding the Hot water heater, BIG
> MISTAKE!! No Volume, sure the toilets and Vanities work fine but the Shower
> /tub doesnt. The problem i have now is everything is behind new drywall,
gfre...@aol.com
Jun 2, 2019, 2:19:27 PM6/2/19
to
no matter what it is. Most as supposed to be limited to 3 GPM by the
water police anyway.
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