Who makes the best Kill-A-Watt meter

[tange...@toyotamail.com]

Another thread on here mentions using a Kill-A-Watt meter to test the
power usage of a freezer (or anything else). I'm considering buying one
of these. I'm sure there are many brands available. I want something
that's functional, durable, and has the most *useful* options. Yet cost
is a factor too. I generally wont buy the cheapest one, but dont want
to spend a fortune on it either.

I've never used one of these, but the way I understand it, they are
plugged into an outlet and the appliance plugged into the meter.
However, what if I want to monitor the power usage in (example), my
garage/workshop. Can this be done? Or what if I want to monitor total
power usage in my home, going across the Mains. I suppose some wiring
would be required, (which is no problem for me). Another consideration,
are they only made for 120V, or can they be used for 240V such as a
dryer, elec range, or a welder?

Which brands do what?

Please include the BRAND NAME and MODEL. Then list their FEATURES,
PRICE, and the STORE or ONLINE place that sells them.

[gregz]

I don't know who makes it. I just bought 2. I was reading and might be some
problem with newer units. The original I what you want.$20

Your getting complicated. Kill a watt is dirt cheap. I would suggest you
do calculations and your main meter.

Greg

[dpb]

On 4/10/2012 1:08 PM, tange...@toyotamail.com wrote:
> Another thread on here mentions using a Kill-A-Watt meter to test the
> power usage of a freezer (or anything else). I'm considering buying one

...

> Which brands do what?
>
> Please include the BRAND NAME and MODEL. Then list their FEATURES,
> PRICE, and the STORE or ONLINE place that sells them.

You can DAGS as easily as we and make your own judgments as to what
features you would like/must have/don't care as well as pricing.

AFAIK the Kill-A-Watt is about unique (or at least ubiquitous) in the
household consumer monitoring field and is throwaway cheap so it doesn't
make any sense to overthink the previous recommendations.

When you talk about much more extensive monitoring, think $$...

--

[tange...@toyotamail.com]

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:36:59 -0500, dpb <no...@non.net> wrote:

>You can DAGS as easily as we and make your own judgments as to what
>features you would like/must have/don't care as well as pricing.

What are you talking about when you say DAGS? You completely lost
me.....

Yea, I guess "Kill-A-Watt" is the brand name (I guess). But I'm sure
there are others.....

Just like everyone calls them Sawsalls, even though thats the brand name
for the ones made by Milwaukee Tools.

[ChairMan]

<tange...@toyotamail.com> wrote in message
news:jfv8o7hlkob68mi0g...@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:36:59 -0500, dpb <no...@non.net> wrote:
>
>>You can DAGS as easily as we and make your own judgments as to what
>>features you would like/must have/don't care as well as pricing.
>
> What are you talking about when you say DAGS? You completely lost
> me.....
>

"do a google search"

[Metspitzer]

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:08:32 -0500, tange...@toyotamail.com wrote:

>Another thread on here mentions using a Kill-A-Watt meter to test the
>power usage of a freezer (or anything else). I'm considering buying one
>of these. I'm sure there are many brands available. I want something
>that's functional, durable, and has the most *useful* options. Yet cost
>is a factor too. I generally wont buy the cheapest one, but dont want
>to spend a fortune on it either.
>
>I've never used one of these, but the way I understand it, they are
>plugged into an outlet and the appliance plugged into the meter.
>However, what if I want to monitor the power usage in (example), my
>garage/workshop. Can this be done? Or what if I want to monitor total
>power usage in my home, going across the Mains. I suppose some wiring

You can do that by reading the meter mounted to your house.

>would be required, (which is no problem for me). Another consideration,
>are they only made for 120V, or can they be used for 240V such as a
>dryer, elec range, or a welder?
>

You can do that by reading the meter mounted to your house too. Just
read the usage and then turn on the dryer and read the usage again.

If you are OK with wiring, why not just use an amp meter?

[John Doe]

tangerine3 toyotamail.com wrote:

> Please include the BRAND NAME and MODEL. Then list their
> FEATURES, PRICE, and the STORE or ONLINE place that sells them.

Right...

A casual user of such a device should consider the possibility
that it might be a one-shot thing. It's very useful (and fun) at
first. But after you have run around and gotten all of the on and
off wattage levels of your devices, it might sit around unused for
a very long time. You might want to consider the possibility that
it will be shared with other people after your initial flurry of
use.

[tange...@toyotamail.com]

According to the response to this post, it appears that it wont do much
of anything that I want. Such as check out a 240v dryer, or read the
wattage going to my garage/workshop. I may as well just use the amp
selection on the multimeter I already own for everything, including the
refrigerator, etc. I kind of had a feeling this was just another gimmic
to make a fast buck for the seller.

Thanks

[Duesenberg]

On 4/10/2012 2:08 PM, tange...@toyotamail.com wrote:
> Another thread on here mentions using a Kill-A-Watt meter to test the
> power usage of a freezer (or anything else). I'm considering buying one
> of these. I'm sure there are many brands available. I want something
> that's functional, durable, and has the most *useful* options. Yet cost
> is a factor too. I generally wont buy the cheapest one, but dont want
> to spend a fortune on it either.
>
> I've never used one of these, but the way I understand it, they are
> plugged into an outlet and the appliance plugged into the meter.
> However, what if I want to monitor the power usage in (example), my
> garage/workshop. Can this be done? Or what if I want to monitor total
> power usage in my home, going across the Mains. I suppose some wiring
> would be required, (which is no problem for me). Another consideration,
> are they only made for 120V, or can they be used for 240V such as a
> dryer, elec range, or a welder?

My smart meter gives data thru the internet so that I can look at it the
next day. No it's not real time, but it's still handy. Most people
here will eventually get these meters I think. They are mandatory in
some juristictions.

When I first became a stay-at-home dad I spent a week with a notebook
and recorded times when I used certain appliances. It helped me see if
I was going to be wasteful at home or not. I then compared my notes
with the smart meter data the next day.

I found that I could save a penny or two by turning off the coffee
maker's keep warm element and I saved about 4 or 5 cents but not using
the dishwasher's dry features. I was doing it more for a fun
entertaining experiment but it did open my eyes a bit to conservation,
but I never took the monitoring too seriously.

[Home Guy]

tange...@toyotamail.com wrote:

> Another thread on here mentions using a Kill-A-Watt meter to test
> the power usage of a freezer (or anything else).
> I'm considering buying one of these.

For inductive loads like motors, I wouldn't trust those consumer-grade
"kill-o-watt" meters any further than I could throw them. They won't be
measuring the actual power being used the same way that your utility
power meter does.

For electric baseboard heaters, incandescent lights, toasters, electric
stoves, kettles, boilers, electric hot-water heaters - the kill-o-watt
meter will work ok.

For inductive loads like compressors (fridge, air conditioner, furnace
fan) and especially anything with a switching power supply like your
desktop computer, TV, CFL or any other fluorescent lights - forget it.

[dpb]

They only claim 2% accuracy but they do measure true RMS and PF. I
don't know why you'd think any less; it's surely not difficult nor
expensive in today's microprocessor world to sample and compute _very_
inexpensively. 2% is, of course, not billing accuracy, but certainly
for the homeowner monitoring purpose adequate enough for virtually any
purpose.

--

[HeyBub]

There is only ONE manufacturer, P3 International, but there are a couple of
imitators. This manufacturer has, maybe, four models.

Go here to pick one. I suggest the lowest price model.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_6?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=kill+a+watt&sprefix=kill+a%2Caps%2C272

Here's a bunch more. Some as low as $17.50.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311&_nkw=kill+a+watt&_sacat=See-All-Categories

[John Doe]

tangerine3 toyotamail.com wrote:

> John Doe <jdoe usenetlove.invalid> wrote:

>>A casual user of such a device should consider the possibility
>>that it might be a one-shot thing. It's very useful (and fun) at
>>first. But after you have run around and gotten all of the on
>>and off wattage levels of your devices, it might sit around
>>unused for a very long time. You might want to consider the
>>possibility that it will be shared with other people after your
>>initial flurry of use.
>
> According to the response to this post, it appears that it wont
> do much of anything that I want. Such as check out a 240v
> dryer, or read the wattage going to my garage/workshop.

The cheap ones have a 15 amp current limit?

> I may as well just use the amp selection on the multimeter I
> already own for everything, including the refrigerator, etc.

Make sure it's fused.

--

[mike]

I've messed with this a LOT.
First thing to ask yourself is, "what am I trying to accomplish?"
It's unproductive to ask a question if you're not gonna do anything
with the answer.

If you want to save money, you already know how to do that.
Just use less of everything.
It costs half as much to shower every other day. But are you going
to shower every third day based on the reading on your meter?
A bucket, stopwatch and a thermometer will give you all the tools
you need to calculate what a shower is costing you.

Are you going to raise the internal temperature of your fridge?
Are you gonna forgo that cold can of pop 'cause it costs you $.0002
to open the fridge door?
Are you going to drink cold coffee or quit toasting your bagel?
If your welds are too strong, weld faster.
If you have electric rates that differ over the course of a day,
you can wash clothes at 4AM.

Bottom line is that we use as little as we can stand. Using less
is not practical or we'd be doing it.

But, it is fun to look at the numbers. Some may surprise you and
need to be dealt with. I'd vote against long-term monitoring. It's
not worth the expense, 'cause you're not likely to pay any attention
after the first month. The wife is gonna' suggest that bathing more
often might help your love life...and you know what you're gonna do.

The Kill-A-Watt measures Watts and Volt-amps. Watts is what most
utilities charge for. It's great for learning how much money your
cable box is costing you in electricity. But, again, are you gonna
unplug the cable box that's costing you $50/month to save a buck in
electricity?

They are marketed under several brand names. Google will find 'em for you.
If google doesn't know, you won't likely find it for sale anyway.
I paid $2 for mine at a garage sale. If I add up all the electricity
I saved using it, I think it'll be sometime in 2015 by the time I get
my $2 back.

A clamp-on amp meter is a useful tool for 240V devices.
It has no knowledge of power factor, so you'll only read volt-amps.
But the water heater, stove, the heater part of an electric dryer all
have a power factor of 1, so watts == volt-amps.
Isn't gonna help much with your welder, or CFL lamps, or motors.

The simplest thing to do is use the utility meter on the house.
You're monitoring exactly what you're being billed for.
A stopwatch to measure how fast the wheel goes around as you turn stuff
on/off will tell you exactly what you're paying for.
Once you get the number, it probably won't change much. Then, all you
need is to time how long it runs. An electric clock on the load side of
the switch will tell you that. Shorter showers make the water heater
run less. But you didn't need ANY measurements to know that.

Blue-Line Innovations distributes a device that clamps on the utility
meter and watches the disk go around. Transmits wirelessly to the
readout. They also have a computer interface.
I got mine for cheap at a garage sale. I wouldn't pay the retail price
for one. Again, marketed by several vendors.

If you have a digital utility meter, it likely has an infrared light
that blinks. Mine blinks once for every watt-hour of use.
I wrote a little program that runs on a Palm III. Point the IR sensor
at the meter and it graphs usage. Kinda interesting to watch the
water heater go on and off. Pretty soon, you recognize the power
signature of the water heater, microwave, furnace, etc.
I was so fascinated that it took over a week to become bored.

While I was at it, I hooked up a switch with a flapper over the vent to log
the run-time of the gas furnace. Guess what...turning down
the thermostat saves money.

One thing you will discover is how much power is wasted by stuff
that's turned off. Common term is "vampire" devices.
I could save about 35Watts of wasted power 24/7 by turning off
all the devices related to watching TV. So, I put in a power
strip and switch it off when not in use.
Every time I wanted to watch TV, I had to turn on the power,
reprogram the clock on two VCR's, wait for the devices to boot
and figure out what they are...then I could watch TV. That lasted
about a week.

IF I took all the time I've spent on measuring stuff and spent it
working at minimum wage, the money I'd earned would more than pay for
all the energy I'm ever gonna save over using common sense.

Conservation is a good thing. Use as little as possible, but no less.
You don't need much real-time data to do that.

[Home Guy]

dpb wrote:

> >> Another thread on here mentions using a Kill-A-Watt meter
> >

> > For inductive loads like motors, I wouldn't trust those consumer-
> > grade "kill-o-watt" meters any further than I could throw them.
>

> They only claim 2% accuracy but they do measure true RMS and PF.
> I don't know why you'd think any less; it's surely not difficult
> nor expensive in today's microprocessor world to sample and compute
> _very_ inexpensively.

I found some interesting material from a couple of forum threads.

The first one: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=137169

To quote from that thread:

===============
I had a friend over today that wanted to show me his new purchase, a
fluke 1735 , so I thought I would do a quick comparison with the
killawatt. The killawatt isn't a bad meter, especially for the price.
Its does have its flaws though. Comparing it with a fluke 1735 I found a
few differences.

The killawatt is terrible at inductive loads, so don't use it for
measuring those. Inductive loads would be things typically with motors,
compressors. So not good for measuring a refirgertator or washing
machine. It measures them , but its results are not .2% accurate.

Refrigerator with compressor running 921 watts, fluke 841.8 watts

Its not accurate at measurements of small wattages. Things like the
power usage of a dvd player in standby mode are not accurate. Killawatt
said dvd player was using about 5 watts, fluke 2.64 watts.

The sampling rate is very low compared to meters like the fluke, so it
can miss quick spikes or surges in usage . When I used it to measure the
power usage of a 51" hdtv at turn on, it constantly gave different
readings. Range from 410 watts to 504 watts. Fluke 448 to 453 watts.
=================

The second thread:

http://fuelzilla.com/homepower/Power-measurement-question-Kill-A-Watt-and-Watts-Up-Pro-33213-.htm

Quoting several posts from that thread:

=================
I have both a Kill-A-Watt and a Watts Up? Pro power meters. To check how
close they're against each other, I connected them in series with the
Kill-A-Watt going into the plug, then the Watts Up? Pro and the load.

They should read about the same or the Kill-A-Watt should read the power
consumption of the load plus the Watts Up? (no more than a watt or
two). Comparing the actual meaasured values, the Watts Up? Pro
consistently give a value about 10% higher than the Kill-A-Watt with
inductive and non-sinusoidal loads and not quite as much difference with
resistive loads.

With the computer I'm using to write this message connected as the load,
Kill-A-Watt is reading 174W and Watts Up? Pro is reading 190W.

Both devices agrees within a reasonable degree against a known good DMM
for voltage.

DMM: 120.3V
W: 121V (does not resolve to 100mV)
K: 120.4V

Current do not agree with each other:
DMM: Unable to measure, my DMM is not true RMS capable
W: 2.37A
K: 2.19A (w/ no load, device reads 0.02A, 0.0W)

PF: both devices reads 0.66

Here are the differences in construction:

Voltage measurement:

Watts Up? Pro: An isolating transformer drops the voltage used for both
measuring the voltage and powering the device.

Kill-A-Watt: It is directly powered from the AC line through a series
R-C circuit and a separate resistive divider is used for voltage
measurement.

Current measurement:

Watts Up?: Current transformer.
Kill-A-Watt: Shunt

-----------------

Realistically speaking, high frequency load (say something that draws
power in 25 15A spikes each half cycle, such as some copy machine/laser
printer heater controller) rich in harmonics and high in crest factor
would not give the meter same accuracy as measuring a plain resistive
load.

Examples of highly harmonic loads:

Almost ALL IT equipments
Most home electronics
Residential electronic ballasts and CFLs
These loads frequently have a THD greater than 60%.

-------------------

I purchase three kill-a-watt units last year and put them all into each
other for comparisons, They all matched each other as close as the
LSDigit would allow.

I also took one of the units and checked it against a lab standard
traceable to the NBS standards and compared it for Voltage, Current,
Power and Reactive Power and I can tell you this, you could use this
unit interchangeably with our lab standard. No digit showing on the
kill-a-watt unit to it finest resolution was out by even one count. Now
our lab standard has a few more digits.

The all Vars (reactive power) and no real power (watts) comparison may
be off a little on our lab standard and I did not compensate using known
documented accuracy tables. The accuracy formulae is always divided by
the PF which makes ???? accuracy but this lab standard is about as
accurate as it gets in Canada without controlled environments etc..
etc..

I am really impressed with the Kill-a-Watt units. No tests on waveform
distortion or harmonics were performed to date by me.

Waveform distortion form factor may be where the differences are found.
OTOH the Watts Up may just not be calibrated properly or junk.

------------------

An update on Kill-A-Watt,

I ripped it apart and started probing around. The shunt's output is
rather low.

The shunt is placed across the neutral and looks like a 12 gauge wire
looped into a U-shape, but I'm not sure what its made of.

It gives a 47mV voltage drop with a 12A 1.5kW space heater connected,
which tells me the shunt is 3.917 miliohms. The signal from shunt is
routed on the board for 3" or so to an LM2902N op-amp. With around
560mW of dissipation, the shunt gets hot to touch and I'm not sure how
much the heating affects the resistance of the shunt.

The current resolution on the Kill-A-Watt is 0.01A and this translates
to current signal input resolution of 39ÁV, which might make the device
suspecticle to noise considering the signal path is not shielded at all.

With a one kilowatt resistive load, it jumps around few tens of watts.

==================

(end)

[Metspitzer]

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 22:39:03 -0400, Home Guy <Ho...@Guy.com> wrote:

>compressors. So not good for measuring a refirgertator or washing
>machine. It measures them , but its results are not .2% accurate.

When you pull your fridge or your washing machine out to plug it into
the Kilo meter just look at the nameplate.

[Robert Green]

"mike" <spa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:jm2ors$ucm$1...@dont-email.me...

<stuff snipped>

> But, it is fun to look at the numbers. Some may surprise you and
> need to be dealt with. I'd vote against long-term monitoring. It's
> not worth the expense, 'cause you're not likely to pay any attention
> after the first month. The wife is gonna' suggest that bathing more
> often might help your love life...and you know what you're gonna do.

There may not be much practical value, but I like knowing how much my old
refrigerator and A/C used compared to the new unit. Or how much setting a
window A/C back 5 degrees really saves in power.

> The simplest thing to do is use the utility meter on the house.
> You're monitoring exactly what you're being billed for.
> A stopwatch to measure how fast the wheel goes around as you turn stuff
> on/off will tell you exactly what you're paying for.

But that's hard when it's raining outside. (-: My new GE smart meter is so
smart there's no local instantaneous readout like the old mechanical dial.

> Once you get the number, it probably won't change much. Then, all you
> need is to time how long it runs.

Going outside, reading wheels that aren't there any longer, timing readings.
You're making me appreciate my Kill-a-Watt more and more.

> Blue-Line Innovations distributes a device that clamps on the utility
> meter and watches the disk go around. Transmits wirelessly to the
> readout. They also have a computer interface.
> I got mine for cheap at a garage sale. I wouldn't pay the retail price
> for one. Again, marketed by several vendors.

I had one for a month until I was informed I had to remove it or they would
shut off the power. I still have the doortag in my Pepco file "customers
are not permitted to attach or locate any devices within 6" of the meter."
Or something like that. My unit had to be precisely aimed at the disk and
strong sunlight made it go crazy. I switch inductors around the feeder
cables connected to my HomeVision home automatic computer's analog input
board. It took some back and forth to calibrate but it works well enough to
indicate when I am close to overloading the main (expensive) fuse. Too many
dual skinny breakers and new circuits.

> If you have a digital utility meter, it likely has an infrared light
> that blinks. Mine blinks once for every watt-hour of use.

Damn, now all I need is infrared vision to see it. What superhero has IR
vision? <just kidding>

Actually, I am going to go outside with a digicam to see if mine has an IR
light.

> I wrote a little program that runs on a Palm III. Point the IR sensor
> at the meter and it graphs usage. Kinda interesting to watch the
> water heater go on and off. Pretty soon, you recognize the power
> signature of the water heater, microwave, furnace, etc.
> I was so fascinated that it took over a week to become bored.

See, it is fun to monitor things!

> One thing you will discover is how much power is wasted by stuff
> that's turned off. Common term is "vampire" devices.
> I could save about 35Watts of wasted power 24/7 by turning off
> all the devices related to watching TV. So, I put in a power
> strip and switch it off when not in use.
> Every time I wanted to watch TV, I had to turn on the power,
> reprogram the clock on two VCR's, wait for the devices to boot
> and figure out what they are...then I could watch TV. That lasted
> about a week.

The trick is to shut down only devices that don't have volatile memories or
have to handshake for 5 minutes with the CATV central computer to boot up.
That's hard, as you note, because the ones drawing vampire power usually
NEED it to remember things.

> IF I took all the time I've spent on measuring stuff and spent it
> working at minimum wage, the money I'd earned would more than pay for
> all the energy I'm ever gonna save over using common sense.

But that's not what life's all about. I've been monitoring lots of things,
and sometimes knowing the precise current draw of a device like a freezer
will tell you when something's going wrong. My failing fridge's electrical
consumption really soared when the freon started to leak out. A comparison
with old readings showed something was wrong. Of course, warm food did too.
(-:

> Conservation is a good thing. Use as little as possible, but no less.
> You don't need much real-time data to do that.

But data collecting can be fun. I guess I'll wait to hit send until after I
look for the blinking IR on my meter.

(goes outside)

Crap! No IR led. You really had my hopes up.

Worse than that I just checked the Pepco web site and they say I can't even
access the data until later this year from my new not-so-smart meter. From
what they are saying, I won't be seeing real time or even by the minute
data. Maybe I missed something but I hate having something "new and
improved" actually take away something very useful like the spinning disk
with the black dot.

I did learn a lot about the technology though, and now know why unlike the
Echelon meters, it doesn't interfere with X-10. A lucky break for me.

http://www.pepco.com/energy/blueprint/smetersmd/faq.aspx#9

--
Bobby G.

[RMD]

<<<<>For inductive loads like motors, I wouldn't trust those
consumer-grade "kill-o-watt" meters any further than I could throw
them. >>>>>

Hi All

I have an evaporative a/c which uses about 650W on the low speed fan
setting. I use this sometimes up to 24 hours/day.

I have one of these consumer grade Kill-A-Watt type meters measuring
the energy used by the evaporative a/c. The a/c is always plugged into
the meter so I can measure the total energy consumption of the a/c.

I can also estimate the a/c energy consumption off my utility energy
meter. Btw if I run this evaporative a/c for 24 hours/day it uses
about 15KWHr of energy. (It pretty well doubles my daily electricity
consumption.)

While I'm not checking the Kill-A-Watt meter to 2% accuracy the
incremental increase in energy useage read from the utility wattmeter
and the Kill-A-Watt style meter reading are pretty close. I'm happy
with the Kill-A-Watt style meters results for the a/c.

Otoh trying to measure standby power of things like VCR's or PVR's is
not so good. Better to measure 10 of them together if you can and
divide the result by 10. It is more a display thing than any inherent
measuring error with low powers. My Kill-A-Watt style meters don't
have a decimal point when reading watts.

One way of estimating refrigerator consumption is just see how often
it is running when you happen to walk past it. A refrigerator uses
about 250W while running. If you walk past it 10 times an hour and it
is (say) running on 3 of those walk-by's then it is using about 3/10
of 250W per hour or 75WHr. Now to get 24 hour consumption multiply the
75 by 24, giving you a daily energy consumption of 75 X 24/1000 =
1.8KWhr.

This is how I initially estimated my refrigerator/freezer consumption
some years ago. I can't remember exact figures of how the rough
estimate related to my subsequent Kill-A-Watt type meter readings, but
I do remember there were no big surprises when I read the consumption
more accurately.

In my house the real optional energy consumption was going in standby
power. I cut my total consumption by 10% or so by changing high usage
light bulbs to CFL's and switching off lots of stuff at the outlet.
Mostly it was switching off stuff at the outlet which made the
difference.

I measured everything I could with Kill-A-Watt style meters, including
the electric hot water service, and adding it all up it pretty much
agreed with the utilities watt-meter daily energy reading. Anyway,
there were no big surprises, or a huge energy discrepancy.

I found the Kill-A-Watt style meters were good enough to tell me where
my daily electrical energy consumption was going and what was using
the most energy.

Did I save me the price of all the meters I bought and the time I
spent measuring things?

No, not really.

In summer I'm using about $6 worth of electrical energy a day on
average (including about $1.20 for hot water from the HWS and electric
kettle, and about $1.80/day for the evaporative a/c.) There aren't
enough daily dollars there to pay for anything much to replace it
before it's time. Electricity here in SA is just about the most
expensive in the world too. (We have lots of green wind power. :) )

But it interested me to measure my own personal electrical energy
consumption patterns. Not everything has to pass an economic test.

Mostly the readings I made convinced me not to fix it if it wasn't
broken.

i.e. One day I'll replace my electric hot water service with a gas
unit, but there is no economic case on energy consumption gas vs
electric for changing it early, even though the 5 star gas hot water
services use a lot less heating $$$ than the old electric hot water
services.

Otoh the low pressure electric hot water services like I have go for
up to 25-30-35 years, and mine is now about 25 years old, whereas some
new efficient gas mains pressure hot water services only last 7 years,
so end up being more expensive.

I have to change the electric HWS to a gas HWS _by law_ once the
electric HWS fails, but I'll wait until it fails thanks very much.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it". :)

It's a good rule in my book.

Ross

[mike]

On 4/10/2012 8:15 PM, Robert Green wrote:
> "mike"<spa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:jm2ors$ucm$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> <stuff snipped>
>
>

> But that's hard when it's raining outside. (-: My new GE smart meter is so
> smart there's no local instantaneous readout like the old mechanical dial.

That surprises me. You'd think the utility workers would need output
more often than the LSD of the KWH readout.
Mine has a row of LCD digit segments that rotates through the digits
replacing the wheel. There's a number printed on the face that represents
the scale factor of the simulated wheel.

>
>> Once you get the number, it probably won't change much. Then, all you
>> need is to time how long it runs.
>
> Going outside, reading wheels that aren't there any longer, timing readings.
> You're making me appreciate my Kill-a-Watt more and more.

You only need to do it once.
IT is not replacing your KAW meter...it does things you can't do with
your KAW meter. Stuff that's 240V or permanently connected can't be
monitored by the KAW meter.

>
>> Blue-Line Innovations distributes a device that clamps on the utility
>> meter and watches the disk go around. Transmits wirelessly to the
>> readout. They also have a computer interface.
>> I got mine for cheap at a garage sale. I wouldn't pay the retail price
>> for one. Again, marketed by several vendors.
>
> I had one for a month until I was informed I had to remove it or they would
> shut off the power. I still have the doortag in my Pepco file "customers
> are not permitted to attach or locate any devices within 6" of the meter."
> Or something like that. My unit had to be precisely aimed at the disk and
> strong sunlight made it go crazy. I switch inductors around the feeder
> cables connected to my HomeVision home automatic computer's analog input
> board.

Are you doing analog multiplication or digital sampling to to the power
factor corrections??

It took some back and forth to calibrate but it works well enough to
> indicate when I am close to overloading the main (expensive) fuse. Too many
> dual skinny breakers and new circuits.
>
>> If you have a digital utility meter, it likely has an infrared light
>> that blinks. Mine blinks once for every watt-hour of use.
>
> Damn, now all I need is infrared vision to see it. What superhero has IR
> vision?<just kidding>
>
> Actually, I am going to go outside with a digicam to see if mine has an IR
> light.

That should be a valid experiment, but depending on the efficiency of
the camera's
IR filter and the width of the optical pulse, it might be hard to see on
the LCD screen. At a base load of 200W, I get only 200 blinks/hour.
Would be pretty easy to miss short pulses that fall between camera sampling
intervals.

>
>> I wrote a little program that runs on a Palm III. Point the IR sensor
>> at the meter and it graphs usage. Kinda interesting to watch the
>> water heater go on and off. Pretty soon, you recognize the power
>> signature of the water heater, microwave, furnace, etc.
>> I was so fascinated that it took over a week to become bored.
>
> See, it is fun to monitor things!

OK. If your desire is to have fun, go for it. Spending too much money on
trivial stuff is the definition of a hobby.

I started out to save some serious bucks. I failed.

>
>> One thing you will discover is how much power is wasted by stuff
>> that's turned off. Common term is "vampire" devices.
>> I could save about 35Watts of wasted power 24/7 by turning off
>> all the devices related to watching TV. So, I put in a power
>> strip and switch it off when not in use.
>> Every time I wanted to watch TV, I had to turn on the power,
>> reprogram the clock on two VCR's, wait for the devices to boot
>> and figure out what they are...then I could watch TV. That lasted
>> about a week.
>
> The trick is to shut down only devices that don't have volatile memories or
> have to handshake for 5 minutes with the CATV central computer to boot up.
> That's hard, as you note, because the ones drawing vampire power usually
> NEED it to remember things.
>
>> IF I took all the time I've spent on measuring stuff and spent it
>> working at minimum wage, the money I'd earned would more than pay for
>> all the energy I'm ever gonna save over using common sense.
>
> But that's not what life's all about. I've been monitoring lots of things,
> and sometimes knowing the precise current draw of a device like a freezer
> will tell you when something's going wrong. My failing fridge's electrical
> consumption really soared when the freon started to leak out.

IFF you have the ability to track appliances individually...and you look
at the data.

A comparison
> with old readings showed something was wrong. Of course, warm food did too.
> (-:

I had the same situation. The furnace failed. Looking back at the logs,
I could have noticed it short-cycling a day earlier. But looking at the
same
data day in and day out and day in and day out breeds inattention.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Apr 11, 6:27 am, mike <spam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/10/2012 8:15 PM, Robert Green wrote:
>

> > "mike"<spam...@gmail.com>  wrote in message

> >news:jm2ors$ucm$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> > <stuff snipped>
>
> > But that's hard when it's raining outside. (-:  My new GE smart meter is so
> > smart there's no local instantaneous readout like the old mechanical dial.
>
> That surprises me.  You'd think the utility workers would need output
> more often than the LSD of the KWH readout.
> Mine has a row of LCD digit segments that rotates through the digits
> replacing the wheel. There's a number printed on the face that represents
> the scale factor of the simulated wheel.
>
>

Why would utility workers need meter readings more than the
LSD of the KWH readout?

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Apr 10, 5:36 pm, tangeri...@toyotamail.com wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:13:19 +0000 (UTC), John Doe
>

I already had a feeling you're an idiot who can't do a google research
to figure out the features of a product and if it fits your usage.
Just
because you want to measure the usage of your whole house or
240V devices, which the KillaWatt meter won't do, doesn't make
it a gimmick. I can plug any appliance in my house into it and
measure
the energy usage, displaying it directly in $$ per day, week, year,
etc.
Want to know how much energy that basement dehumidifier is
using? Want to know how the computer is using if you prefer to leave
it on? Just plug it in. That is what it was designed for and for
$25,
it's a useful tool to me.

[George]

Seems a little tedious to sit there all day long with your multimeter to
try to record the power usage of a fridge?

[George]

On 4/10/2012 9:54 PM, John Doe wrote:
> tangerine3 toyotamail.com wrote:
>
>> John Doe<jdoe usenetlove.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> A casual user of such a device should consider the possibility
>>> that it might be a one-shot thing. It's very useful (and fun) at
>>> first. But after you have run around and gotten all of the on
>>> and off wattage levels of your devices, it might sit around
>>> unused for a very long time. You might want to consider the
>>> possibility that it will be shared with other people after your
>>> initial flurry of use.
>>
>> According to the response to this post, it appears that it wont
>> do much of anything that I want. Such as check out a 240v
>> dryer, or read the wattage going to my garage/workshop.
>
> The cheap ones have a 15 amp current limit?

You would think a $16 unit would be a lot more versatile...

>
>> I may as well just use the amp selection on the multimeter I
>> already own for everything, including the refrigerator, etc.
>
> Make sure it's fused.

And you have a comfortable chair.

>

[Doug]

For an electric hot water heater, it may pay to put in a on/off switch
in the house so you can shut it off when you have no need for
immediate hot water. I once did this and it was nice.

[harry]

On Apr 10, 7:29 pm, gregz <ze...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Greg- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

They are useful things because the freezer for example only runs
intermittantly.

The only thing that need concern you is total Kwh consumed, everything
else is just academic or can be got off the rating plate of the
appliance.
What you really need to worry about is what you're going to do with
the information when you have it.
My biggest user, believe it or not is the TV. (Large plasma.)

[Doug]

Yesterday I was thinking of buying this K-A-W meter but I began to
realize, I'm not going to change anything even after I see the meter's
results so why bother getting one. I mean I always try to save
electricity in my home using age old advice so I probably have little
practical reason for this device except for the fun factor. I'm old
enough to know by now how to save electricity without the meter and as
you pointed out, saving electricity in some cases isn't always
practical.

[gregz]

I don't know about newer units, but my defrost goes for 45 minutes at 1500
watts.
That's at least an extra kWh per day.

Greg

[mike]

Same reason you want the display on your wall clock to update
more than once per hour.

[mike]

On 4/11/2012 6:49 AM, Doug wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 06:25:56 GMT, r...@invalid.invalid (RMD) wrote:
>
>>

>>snip

>
> For an electric hot water heater, it may pay to put in a on/off switch
> in the house so you can shut it off when you have no need for
> immediate hot water. I once did this and it was nice.

I'd like to hear more about this. "nice"???
There's already a switch in the breaker box, but I
understand that you'd not want to use that frequently.
Where did you put the added switch?
What kind of switch did you use that could reliably
switch 4KW?
What did it cost for the switch/wire/installation/permits/inspections?
How much did you actually save using it?

Last time I looked into it, the thermal time constant of a well-
insulated electric water heater was on the order of days.

[Art Todesco]

A lot depends on you. I am a retired engineer. Actually, engineers
never retire, we only bug our spouses with engineering-type stuff all
over the house. I've had my Kill-A-Watt for about 5 years now and
probably use it once a month, on average for generally testing, etc. I
also had a voltage problem where the power company was jacking up the
voltage, apparently to relieve low voltage problems in other parts of
our local grid. I was up to 126 volts and sometimes higher. It did
cause problems with at lease one piece of electronic equipment in my
house. When I called them and gave them the results, they initially
brushed me off. But when I got to talk to an engineer, he was
interested. They called me back about 1/2 hour later and said the
problem was theirs and it would be fixed immediately. I actually
watched the voltage go down about an hour later.

[DerbyDad03]

On Apr 10, 2:41 pm, tangeri...@toyotamail.com wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:36:59 -0500, dpb <n...@non.net> wrote:
> >You can DAGS as easily as we and make your own judgments as to what
> >features you would like/must have/don't care as well as pricing.
>
> What are you talking about when you say DAGS?  You completely lost
> me.....
>
> Yea, I guess "Kill-A-Watt" is the brand name (I guess).  But I'm sure
> there are others.....
>
> Just like everyone calls them Sawsalls, even though thats the brand name
> for the ones made by Milwaukee Tools.

Not *everyone* calls them Sawsalls. I don't.

First off, the name is Sawzall, not Sawsall.

Second, I call them a reciprocating saw.

[Stormin Mormon]

Every frost free fridge I've serviced has a "defrost termination
thermostat". If yours runs 45 mins at 1500 watts, you totally
need that thing repaired. That's not normal.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"gregz" <ze...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1041369011355855104.9...@news.eternal-

[gregz]

How would they do that ???

Greg

[gregz]

I don't know if it sucks up power for that time, but it does stay on
defrost for that time. I put a data logger on once to check temps. The
freezer goes way up in temp, but fridge moderates. But DON'T OPEN ANYTHING
during that period.
I keep stressing we need smart units that defrost when we tell it to.

Greg

[tange...@toyotamail.com]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:00:44 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

>
>Not *everyone* calls them Sawsalls. I don't.
>
>First off, the name is Sawzall, not Sawsall.
>
>Second, I call them a reciprocating saw.

You're right on the spelling, and I know they're a reciprocating saw,
but everyone I know calls them Sawzalls. Once at an auction I saw one
of them on a table, and I asked a guy if they had sold that
reciprocating saw yet. He said "what's that?". I pointed to the tool,
a Black & Decker brand, and they guy said "That's called a sawzall".
When the auctioneer finally sold it, he called it a Black & Decker
sawzall. I dont even try to call them a reciprocating saw anymore
because no one knows what I'm talking about. (plus that word is too long
to keep saying on the job).

[Robert Green]

"mike" <spa...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:jm3mct$2n3$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 4/10/2012 8:15 PM, Robert Green wrote:
> > "mike"<spa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:jm2ors$ucm$1...@dont-email.me...
> >
> > <stuff snipped>
> >
> >
> > But that's hard when it's raining outside. (-: My new GE smart meter is
so
> > smart there's no local instantaneous readout like the old mechanical
dial.
>
> That surprises me. You'd think the utility workers would need output
> more often than the LSD of the KWH readout.
> Mine has a row of LCD digit segments that rotates through the digits
> replacing the wheel. There's a number printed on the face that represents
> the scale factor of the simulated wheel.

Surprised me too! I mean to call them today and find out whether I've got a
defective meter or I've actually lost the ability to see instantaneous
usage.

> >> Once you get the number, it probably won't change much. Then, all you
> >> need is to time how long it runs.
> >
> > Going outside, reading wheels that aren't there any longer, timing
readings.
> > You're making me appreciate my Kill-a-Watt more and more.
>
> You only need to do it once.
> IT is not replacing your KAW meter...it does things you can't do with
> your KAW meter. Stuff that's 240V or permanently connected can't be
> monitored by the KAW meter.

I have a clamp ammeter (tong meter) to deal with stuff like that.

> >> Blue-Line Innovations distributes a device that clamps on the utility
> >> meter and watches the disk go around. Transmits wirelessly to the
> >> readout. They also have a computer interface.
> >> I got mine for cheap at a garage sale. I wouldn't pay the retail price
> >> for one. Again, marketed by several vendors.
> >
> > I had one for a month until I was informed I had to remove it or they
would
> > shut off the power. I still have the doortag in my Pepco file
"customers
> > are not permitted to attach or locate any devices within 6" of the
meter."
> > Or something like that. My unit had to be precisely aimed at the disk
and
> > strong sunlight made it go crazy. I switch inductors around the feeder
> > cables connected to my HomeVision home automatic computer's analog input
> > board.
>
> Are you doing analog multiplication or digital sampling to to the power
> factor corrections??

Very gross load interpolation based on looking at the value the inductors
were returning and matching them to the power company's meter and a tong
meter I had around the feeders. The major concern was to sound an alarm if
the whole house load got close to 100A because I added a lot of new circuits
using dual breakers. That involved activating all space heaters, A/C's,
toaster ovens and such at once to get some idea of the load and creating a
"lookup table" - not very accurate but it doesn't need to be.

> It took some back and forth to calibrate but it works well enough to
> > indicate when I am close to overloading the main (expensive) fuse. Too
many
> > dual skinny breakers and new circuits.
> >
> >> If you have a digital utility meter, it likely has an infrared light
> >> that blinks. Mine blinks once for every watt-hour of use.
> >
> > Damn, now all I need is infrared vision to see it. What superhero has
IR
> > vision?<just kidding>
> >
> > Actually, I am going to go outside with a digicam to see if mine has an
IR
> > light.
>
> That should be a valid experiment, but depending on the efficiency of
> the camera's
> IR filter and the width of the optical pulse, it might be hard to see on
> the LCD screen. At a base load of 200W, I get only 200 blinks/hour.
> Would be pretty easy to miss short pulses that fall between camera
sampling
> intervals.

I am going to go out an examine the face of the meter in daylight. I took
some time exposures of several seconds with a pretty serious load going. I
saw nothing. I think we got the low end model. But I am glad it's 2.4GHz
and not a powerline transmission scheme. They say on the site it only
spends a few minutes each day communicating, so potential interference
problems should be few.

> >> I wrote a little program that runs on a Palm III. Point the IR sensor
> >> at the meter and it graphs usage. Kinda interesting to watch the
> >> water heater go on and off. Pretty soon, you recognize the power
> >> signature of the water heater, microwave, furnace, etc.
> >> I was so fascinated that it took over a week to become bored.
> >
> > See, it is fun to monitor things!
>
> OK. If your desire is to have fun, go for it. Spending too much money on
> trivial stuff is the definition of a hobby.

Home automation is definitely a hobby, but it does save money. I can turn
off almost every serious load in the house from my bedside, my PC or any
number controllers throughout the house. My wife says "we wouldn't need all
this X-10 stuff if you weren't so lazy you can't remember to turn off the
lights." That's true, but she realizes it's a hobby and actually likes a
number of the features. The electronic dog, the ability to turn on all the
lights in the house from the bedside, etc.

> I started out to save some serious bucks. I failed.

Sometimes it's the journey that counts, not the destination.

> > But that's not what life's all about. I've been monitoring lots of
things,
> > and sometimes knowing the precise current draw of a device like a
freezer
> > will tell you when something's going wrong. My failing fridge's
electrical
> > consumption really soared when the freon started to leak out.

> IFF you have the ability to track appliances individually...and you look
> at the data.

> > A comparison with old readings showed something was wrong. Of course,
warm food did too.
> > (-:

> I had the same situation.

Great minds run in the same ruts!

> The furnace failed. Looking back at the logs,
> I could have noticed it short-cycling a day earlier. But looking at the
> same data day in and day out and day in and day out breeds inattention.

It's always nice to know things. I got an incredibly cheap "thing to
measure rotations" - brain fart - infrared tachometer - to measure the
rotational speeds of all the fans and rotating things I could find in the
house on the assumption that knowing an exhaust fan, for example, has slowed
down several hundred RPM means it's time to either oil it or order a
replacement. I haven't used it since I made the base readings, but I am
glad I have them. I did that because it turns out that my PC's that monitor
case fan and CPU speeds have been able to warn me when a cooling fan's about
to die. They even have settable alarms based on the RPM.

--
Bobby G.

[Robert Green]

"Art Todesco" <acto...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jm4dlh$c8d$1...@dont-email.me...

<stuff snipped>

> A lot depends on you. I am a retired engineer. Actually, engineers
> never retire, we only bug our spouses with engineering-type stuff all
> over the house. I've had my Kill-A-Watt for about 5 years now and
> probably use it once a month, on average for generally testing, etc.

Yep. Same here. I could do a lot of what the KAW does with various other
meters, but none are as convenient for single load testing and especially
accumulated readings. The KAW told me my sump pump had burned up when it
started drawing 10kWh's and then nothing. )-;

--
Bobby G.

[tange...@toyotamail.com]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 05:05:30 -0700 (PDT), "tra...@optonline.net"
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:

>because you want to measure the usage of your whole house or
>240V devices, which the KillaWatt meter won't do, doesn't make
>it a gimmick. I can plug any appliance in my house into it and
>measure
>the energy usage, displaying it directly in $$ per day, week, year,
>etc.
>Want to know how much energy that basement dehumidifier is
>using? Want to know how the computer is using if you prefer to leave
>it on? Just plug it in. That is what it was designed for and for
>$25,
>it's a useful tool to me.

Sure, it meter all the small energy usage stuff, but I'm concerned with
the stuff that costs me the BIG money. My electric water heater,
welder, clothes dryer are at the top of that list, and all of them are
240V. I know I can sit in front of my electric meter and watch the
thing spin to monitor my whole house, but I want to determine what
individual items are using, particularly the ones that use the most
power. A little mathematics will easily determine what my tv set uses
per hour, and multiply that by the amount of hours it's turned on per
day. The same for most small appliances, space heaters, and light
bulbs. Most of them have a wattage rating listed somewhere on a tag.

But that water heater is only running a few times per day. Even when no
one is home, it will turn on to keep the water hot. I want to monitor
just how much power it's using over the course of a week. I've been
considering replacing it with a gas model, but then I will have to
figure out the cost to have LP gas delivered, etc (no natural gas
available, since this is a rural area).

Maybe when these Kill-a-watt meters include a means to measure 240v,
I'll buy one. Till then, they seem pretty useless, except for someone
who dont know how to determine that using a 100W lightbulb for 10 hours
is one KWH consumed, and at 10 cents per KWH, it costs one cent to leave
it turned on for an hour.

At the same time, I will say that these meters might be helpful for
monitoring a refrigerator, freezer, or air cond. Those are also large
usage items and they CAN be tested with it (except central air cond).
But if I want to monitor the WHOLE picture, these meters are not
capable.

[tange...@toyotamail.com]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 03:27:44 -0700, mike <spa...@gmail.com> wrote:

>That surprises me. You'd think the utility workers would need output
>more often than the LSD of the KWH readout.

LSD ??????
I didn't know the electric company provided drugs :)

[Art Todesco]

I don't know, but it involved going to some site, probably a substation.
BTW, the voltage, after they corrected it, was about 112 ... sometimes
lower sometimes a little bit higher. However, over the months that
follow, it has crept up to about 120 on average. I don't know if it
goes at high as before (126 or higher) because I changed out the piece
of electronic equipment that seemed to be responding to the problem. It
was a set of computer speakers. I could duplicate the problem on the
bench with a Variac. When the voltage would go to about 125, the
speakers would start buzzing. I have several pairs of these speakers
and all exhibit the same problem. So, I changed out the wallwart to a
different 12 volt wallwart. Now those speakers have no problem.

[Jules Richardson]

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:13:19 +0000, John Doe wrote:
> A casual user of such a device should consider the possibility that it
> might be a one-shot thing. It's very useful (and fun) at first. But
> after you have run around and gotten all of the on and off wattage
> levels of your devices, it might sit around unused for a very long time.
> You might want to consider the possibility that it will be shared with
> other people after your initial flurry of use.

Exactly. I've heard of power companies overseas giving them away to
customers (as part of a drive to save energy; I assume local governments
ultimately paid for them), but I'm not aware of any power companies over
here doing that - but it sure would be nice! :-)

cheers

Jules

[Duesenberg]

On 4/11/2012 3:22 PM, tange...@toyotamail.com wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:00:44 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Not *everyone* calls them Sawsalls. I don't.
>>
>> First off, the name is Sawzall, not Sawsall.
>>
>> Second, I call them a reciprocating saw.
>
> You're right on the spelling, and I know they're a reciprocating saw,
> but everyone I know calls them Sawzalls. Once at an auction I saw one
> of them on a table, and I asked a guy if they had sold that
> reciprocating saw yet. He said "what's that?". I pointed to the tool,

> a Black& Decker brand, and they guy said "That's called a sawzall".
> When the auctioneer finally sold it, he called it a Black& Decker

> sawzall. I dont even try to call them a reciprocating saw anymore
> because no one knows what I'm talking about. (plus that word is too long
> to keep saying on the job).
>
>

People around here used to always call them Sawzalls but now that many
people own a reciporcating saw, many of started calling "Recip Saw".
Seems both are interchangeable now, at least locally.

I just bought a brand new Makita one today!

[gregz]

I currently have about 122 volts. Where I used to work, 125 was the norm.

Greg

[Home Guy]

gregz wrote:

> I currently have about 122 volts. Where I used to work, 125 was
> the norm.

Are you aware that you quoted 83 lines of previously-posted material
just to add a single line to this thread?

You, Art Todesco and "Doug" are responsible for quoting most or all of
this entire thread in each of your respective replies.

Is there any reason why you people are doing this?

[mike]

The water heater is one of the more predictable loads you have.
The nameplate sez how many watts. You only need to know how long it runs.

A 240V mechanical clock clipped across the load will accumulate
run time. But it might be easier to use a battery powered clock
that runs off a 120/240V wall wart. Or a 240/120 stepdown transformer.

It's a very simple thermodynamic model. It's nearly 100% efficient,
so you can calculate exactly how many killowatt-hours it takes to heat
a pound of water from the inlet temp to the outlet temp. You can
measure flow with a milk jug and a stopwatch. If you know the ambient
temperature and the thermostat setting, you can calculate radiation loss
with only one actual measurement of how long it takes to heat back up
after you've turned it off for a few hours without using any hot water.

Turning down the thermostat will help some with the radiation loss.
But people taking a shower will just turn up the hot to get the water
temp they like and defeat any savings you might get there.

I can save a significant percentage by washing my face in the kitchen
instead of the bathroom. The kitchen is much closer to the WH and
wastes less filling the pipes. But the real savings is time.
It takes so long for the hot water to get thru the low-flow spigot
that I can walk to the kitchen and back several times over.
But a significant percentage savings of approximately zero use
is still zero.

But knowing doesn't help much. One of my guilty pleasures is a
long, hot shower. I know I can save $$$, I choose not to.

There's been enough talk about global warming and energy efficiency
that most people have already done the things that don't inconvenience
them in any way. But when it starts becoming an inconvenience, they/we
backslide.

I've been
> considering replacing it with a gas model, but then I will have to
> figure out the cost to have LP gas delivered, etc (no natural gas
> available, since this is a rural area).

The math on that one will be interesting. My neighbor recently replaced
his worn-out gas water heater. Cost him $900. My electric cost me
$130, and I didn't have to pay someone to run a gas pipe for conversion.
I'm sure there's a break-even point, but I don't use enough hot water to
get there. If you use a lot of hot water and depending on where you
live, a solar preheater may be a good investment.

>
> Maybe when these Kill-a-watt meters include a means to measure 240v,
> I'll buy one.

That's not a technical problem, it's a logistic one.
In the US, lots of 240V stuff doesn't plug in.
For the stuff that does, there are several different plugs.
And I'd have to pull the clothes dryer out of the closet, hook up
a vent pipe extension and crouch at floor level to read the thing.
The higher voltages and currents will result in more people
electrocuting themselves or setting the house on fire.
The product liability lawyers don't like that risk.

Till then, they seem pretty useless, except for someone
> who dont know how to determine that using a 100W lightbulb for 10 hours
> is one KWH consumed, and at 10 cents per KWH, it costs one cent to leave
> it turned on for an hour.
>
> At the same time, I will say that these meters might be helpful for
> monitoring a refrigerator, freezer, or air cond. Those are also large
> usage items and they CAN be tested with it (except central air cond).
> But if I want to monitor the WHOLE picture, these meters are not
> capable.
>

I gave a lot of thought to the welder issue. Probably get better answer
in a welding newsgroup, but isn't the cost of a weld pretty closely related
to how much metal you put down? IF you can get adequate strength with
less metal, do so. Don't need any measurements to do that.
Then, there's that old risk/reward ratio.
Would be a shame to save a penny on a weld and lose an arm when
the mower broke apart.

I maintain that two people with a stopwatch
can easily determine the incremental load of any device with a switch
by watching the utility meter.
Absolute accuracy is not necessary. No matter what behavior
modification you employ, you're likely to be back to your old ways in
a month or so.

Most of the lighting in my house is provided by three 1.5W LED lamps.
But I'm too lazy to turn them off when I leave the room. I estimate
I waste at least 80% of that 4.5Watts. My bad...

[Jim Rusling]

Art Todesco <acto...@yahoo.com> wrote:

<snip>

>A lot depends on you. I am a retired engineer. Actually, engineers
>never retire, we only bug our spouses with engineering-type stuff all
>over the house. I've had my Kill-A-Watt for about 5 years now and
>probably use it once a month, on average for generally testing, etc. I
>also had a voltage problem where the power company was jacking up the
>voltage, apparently to relieve low voltage problems in other parts of
>our local grid. I was up to 126 volts and sometimes higher. It did
>cause problems with at lease one piece of electronic equipment in my
>house. When I called them and gave them the results, they initially
>brushed me off. But when I got to talk to an engineer, he was
>interested. They called me back about 1/2 hour later and said the
>problem was theirs and it would be fixed immediately. I actually
>watched the voltage go down about an hour later.

I use mine every time I start the portable generator to exercise it. I
check both the voltage and the frequence, under load and no load. Last
fall I found that the automatic voltage regulation was off some and
took it in for servicing. It may have very well saved some
electronics the next power outage.
--
Jim Rusling
More or Less Retired
Mustang, OK
www.rusling.org

[Saul Bloom]

We're running about 124v except when I flush the toilet.

[gregz]

It takes a bit more time using this iPad, but I usually do NOT delete
lines.
I figured someone would bitch.

Greg

[Home Guy]

gregz wrote:

> > Are you aware that you quoted 83 lines of previously-posted
> > material just to add a single line to this thread?
> >

> > Is there any reason why you people are doing this?
>
> It takes a bit more time using this iPad, but I usually do NOT
> delete lines.

That's assinine thinking.

> I figured someone would bitch.

Why?

Why drag the entire expanding thread into each and every response?

The entire thread (all previous posts) are easily visible and
accessible. If someone is reading a thread, one post at a time, there's
no need to repeat the material with each successive response.

I know that people got into the bad habbit of doing that with e-mail 10+
years ago, but usenet is not an e-mail conversation.

[Robert Green]

"Jim Rusling" <use...@rusling.org> wrote in message

<stuff snipped>

> I use mine every time I start the portable generator to exercise it. I
> check both the voltage and the frequence, under load and no load. Last
> fall I found that the automatic voltage regulation was off some and
> took it in for servicing. It may have very well saved some
> electronics the next power outage.

You get the award for most practical use of the Kill-o-Watt so far.

--
Bobby G.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Apr 11, 12:44 pm, mike <spam...@gmail.com> wrote:

> more than once per hour.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I want a wall clock to display the time of day continously
because I need to know what time of day it is at any
time. The question was why utility workers would need
the meter on the side of my house to display meter
readings more than the LSD of the readout. I see
no need for that, which is why I asked.

[harry]

On Apr 11, 7:39 pm, gregz <ze...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Art Todesco <actode...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On 4/11/2012 12:23 PM, Doug wrote:

> >> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:03:43 -0700, mike<spam...@gmail.com>  wrote:

> Greg- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Normally done by changing the tappings in your local transformer.
Which might be a minor task or not depending on the design.

[mike]

On 4/12/2012 5:04 AM, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

>>
>> Same reason you want the display on your wall clock to update
>> more than once per hour.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I want a wall clock to display the time of day continously
> because I need to know what time of day it is at any
> time.

EXACTLY.

The question was why utility workers would need
> the meter on the side of my house to display meter
> readings more than the LSD of the readout. I see
> no need for that, which is why I asked.

If the meter reading was not consistent with the delta from
previous months, the diagnostician might be interested to learn
if it's working at all. How long should he have to wait to
learn that?
If I'm not home, my LSD might not change for 10 hours.

If I'm interested in measuring consumption of various electrical
devices, I surely want higher resolution.

[bud--]

On 4/11/2012 12:39 PM, gregz wrote:
> Art Todesco<acto...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>

>> A lot depends on you. I am a retired engineer. Actually, engineers
>> never retire, we only bug our spouses with engineering-type stuff all
>> over the house. I've had my Kill-A-Watt for about 5 years now and
>> probably use it once a month, on average for generally testing, etc. I
>> also had a voltage problem where the power company was jacking up the
>> voltage, apparently to relieve low voltage problems in other parts of our
>> local grid. I was up to 126 volts and sometimes higher. It did cause
>> problems with at lease one piece of electronic equipment in my house.
>> When I called them and gave them the results, they initially brushed me
>> off. But when I got to talk to an engineer, he was interested. They
>> called me back about 1/2 hour later and said the problem was theirs and
>> it would be fixed immediately. I actually watched the voltage go down about an hour later.
>
> How would they do that ???
>

A common method is utilities have voltage regulators. They may be in
substations, but there are also pole mounted ones. One type is a
multi-step buck-boost transformer. The regulator raises and lowers the
voltage from another transformer. For a +/- 10% range and a 75kVA
circuit the regulator transformer would have a 7.5kVA rating.

--
bud--

[Tekkie®]

tange...@toyotamail.com posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

What do you think they meant by "power factor"

--
Tekkie

[Tekkie®]

gregz posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

> I currently have about 122 volts. Where I used to work, 125 was the norm.
>
> Greg
>

Dats Nicz but who cares?

--
Tekkie

[Tekkie®]

gregz posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

>

> It takes a bit more time using this iPad, but I usually do NOT delete
> lines.
> I figured someone would bitch.
>
> Greg
>

I thought EVERYTHING was flawless with Apples products. You
burst my bubble.

--
Tekkie

[Tekkie®]

Saul Bloom posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

>

> We're running about 124v except when I flush the toilet.
>

You are flushing your brain then because you quoted all of the
postings. Maroon.

--
Tekkie

[Steve Barker]

only the mac-in-toy owners think that. It's their fantasy.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

[gregz]

Steve Barker <ichase...@notgmail.com> wrote:

> On 4/16/2012 12:20 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
>> gregz posted for all of us...
>>
>> And I know how to SNIP
>>
>>>
>>> It takes a bit more time using this iPad, but I usually do NOT delete
>>> lines.
>>> I figured someone would bitch.
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>
>> I thought EVERYTHING was flawless with Apples products. You
>> burst my bubble.
>>
>
> only the mac-in-toy owners think that. It's their fantasy.

It's not all computer related. I used newsxpress reader most of my Internet
days. It did not archive posts. If the info was not in the repost, I had no
idea sometimes what they were talking about. Then I would have to take time
and search google archives, and often posting there at the same time. It
seems some newsgroups, tend to criticize long postings. I could care less.

Wait, I'm changing my tv channel with this iPad.

Greg

[gregz]

Oh, I forgot about Using Pine reader. You just use telnet.

Greg

[gregz]

Yes my iPad was tricky, but you should have seen how long it takes to use
backspace in unix Pine. I guess I'm burnt in.


Greg

[gregz]

What was said before your post? I don't see anything.

Greg