Whole house fan - possible to add variable speed?
Lee B
Current house came with a whole house fan (not an attic fan, but the
kind in a hallway ceiling that sucks air into the attic). I was happy to
see that because I really liked the one in my old house. However the one
in the old house had a variable speed dial on it, and the new house's
fan has just one speed - high and loud with a simple off/on switch.
Is the variable speed a function of the fan itself or can that be added
at the switch? I'd definitely be having an electrician do it, but I'm
just trying to figure out if it's even doable, or if I'd end up needing
an entire new fan. And if so, would replacing an existing fan and switch
be difficult (ie cost me an arm and a leg)?
DA
http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/Whole-house-fan-possible-to-add-variable-speed-452575-.htm
DA wrote:
Lee B wrote:
> Current house came with a whole house fan (not an attic fan, but the
> kind in a hallway ceiling that sucks air into the attic). I was happy
> to see that because I really liked the one in my old house.
It sucks conditioned air from inside the house into the attic? Is it a
finished attic? Otherwise I can't see any logic in using this fan. Sounds
like the only speed setting you'd want on it is OFF.
But as far as speed control, it would depend on the type of the motor. It
is very likely a single phase AC, and so this controller Grainger sells
might work:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/5JJ60?Pid=search (it's only 2.5A
but cheap, and they have beefier models, too)
I guess, you'd need to get up there and see the motor first. Getting a
wrong speed controller will most likely kill either the motor or the
controller.
Good luck!
-------------------------------------
/\_/\
((@v@)) NIGHT
():::() OWL
VV-VV
Ed Pawlowski
"Lee B" <not_my_r...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:i1a6q5$aaf$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
You need a switch that will handle the motor size in question. I cannot
imagine running it on high all the time. I ru n mine ab out half speed
after the first two minutes or so.
Ed Pawlowski
"DA" <info_at_1-sc...@foo.com> wrote
>
> It sucks conditioned air from inside the house into the attic? Is it a
> finished attic? Otherwise I can't see any logic in using this fan. Sounds
> like the only speed setting you'd want on it is OFF.
Whole house fans suck fresh air from outside through the open windows and
door and push it out the attic. On cool nights, it is a very efficient way
of cooling down the house. It does not replace AC on hot and humid days.
JimT
"DA" <info_at_1-sc...@foo.com> wrote in message
news:11711$4c38a8ba$45499b77$56...@news.flashnewsgroups.com...
> responding to
> http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/Whole-house-fan-possible-to-add-variable-speed-452575-.htm
> DA wrote:
>
> Lee B wrote:
>
>
>> Current house came with a whole house fan (not an attic fan, but the
>> kind in a hallway ceiling that sucks air into the attic). I was happy
>> to see that because I really liked the one in my old house.
>
> It sucks conditioned air from inside the house into the attic? Is it a
> finished attic? Otherwise I can't see any logic in using this fan. Sounds
> like the only speed setting you'd want on it is OFF.
>
Only makes since in certain climates. Hawaii would be one. Areas near the
coast etc. They work basically the same as a evaporative cooler but without
the cooling pads. I've suggested it for people that have a very limited
budget and a place to draw cool air in. Better than nothing.
Oren
(DA) wrote:
>> Current house came with a whole house fan (not an attic fan, but the
>> kind in a hallway ceiling that sucks air into the attic). I was happy
>> to see that because I really liked the one in my old house.
>
>It sucks conditioned air from inside the house into the attic? Is it a
>finished attic? Otherwise I can't see any logic in using this fan. Sounds
>like the only speed setting you'd want on it is OFF.
Some homes in SW Georgia (in the late 80's) had just a fan like the OP
mentions. It had just a light switch in the hall.
If you had very large shade trees and the Sun was right you opened a
window on the cool side of the house. Create a draft. In the kitchen,
close all windows and open the back door while cooking. It drafted the
heat into the hall fan and out the attic.
At night only open a BR window.
willshak
> responding to
> http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/Whole-house-fan-possible-to-add-variable-speed-452575-.htm
> DA wrote:
>
> Lee B wrote:
>
>
>
>> Current house came with a whole house fan (not an attic fan, but the
>> kind in a hallway ceiling that sucks air into the attic). I was happy
>> to see that because I really liked the one in my old house.
>>
>
> It sucks conditioned air from inside the house into the attic? Is it a
> finished attic? Otherwise I can't see any logic in using this fan. Sounds
> like the only speed setting you'd want on it is OFF.
It also sucks non-conditioned air from the house and causes cooling
breezes, which is its main function.
You'd have to own one to know the benefits.
Before AC, fans were the only choice for comfortable air. They still
perform the same function.
It may be comfortable in the house without AC, but the sun has been
beating down on your roof all day, but if you have to go into the
unfinished attic to look for something stored away, the fan can replace
the hot attic air with outside air from open windows below the fan.
Burn something on the stove? The fan can remove the smoky air in the
house within a few minutes. You don't have to call the FD to aerate the
house.
Still smell last night's fish dinner? Suck the smell out of the house.
Jasmine came in with the remnants of a meeting with a skunk? OK, you'll
have to run the fan a whole lot longer. (N.B.) Jasmine was my Golden
Retriever, and yes she did.
I have a WH fan and central AC and I use either of them at various times
of the year.
>
>
> But as far as speed control, it would depend on the type of the motor. It
> is very likely a single phase AC, and so this controller Grainger sells
> might work:
>
> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/5JJ60?Pid=search (it's only 2.5A
> but cheap, and they have beefier models, too)
>
> I guess, you'd need to get up there and see the motor first. Getting a
> wrong speed controller will most likely kill either the motor or the
> controller.
>
> Good luck!
>
> -------------------------------------
> /\_/\
> ((@v@)) NIGHT
> ():::() OWL
> VV-VV
>
>
>
>
--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @
Jon Danniken
>
> Is the variable speed a function of the fan itself or can that be
> added at the switch?
It is a function of the motor, which will be a split-phase induction motor.
You either have a motor designed with multiple windings for multiple speeds,
or you don't. If you don't, the only practical way would be to replace the
motor with one designed with multiple windings, or get a new unit.
If you do have a motor designed with that feature, it will be a simple
manner of wiring up an appropriate switch to select between the speeds
available.
Jon
Ed Pawlowski
"Jon Danniken" <jonSPAMMEN...@yahSPAMhoo.com> wrote
>
> It is a function of the motor, which will be a split-phase induction
> motor. You either have a motor designed with multiple windings for
> multiple speeds, or you don't. If you don't, the only practical way would
> be to replace the motor with one designed with multiple windings, or get a
> new unit.
Not quite true. Mine works with a simple dimmer switch of proper capacity.
Multiple windings not needed.
Lee B
unit? (No point in telling me what to look for, I'm not built for
climbing a ladder up into that little trap door to the attic... or worse
trying to climb back down!). I got the old fan at Sears and also got the
variable speed dial there. I can't remember what I paid for that fan 20+
yr ago, but I know it wasn't a top of the line or anything special. I
sort of assumed they all worked the same and was surprised when I
encountered this one.
I can't use the fan too often, living in the mid-Atlantic where it's
often too humid to suck that wet air in. But we've had a few really
pleasant evenings where the humidity was low, and it would be nice to
turn off the A/C and feel like I'm saving $.
harry
Your fan motor will be an induction motor because they are quiet and
cheap. The speed they run at is frequency dependent. It's possible
to make motors that have in effect two windings and hence two speeds.
There are mickey mouse devices that cut the voltage to make the motor
run slower but this causes heating effects in the motor it might not
be designed for.
There are also electronic inverters that rectify your alternating
current & then output any frequecy you like. So the motor can be run
at a wide range of speeds but they are fairly expensive.
If tthere are belts linking you fan and motor, you might consider
changing the pulley ratio. It's quite hard to determine what ratio
you would need.
Jon Danniken
>
> Thanks. Is that something an electrician could tell by looking at the
> unit? (No point in telling me what to look for, I'm not built for
> climbing a ladder up into that little trap door to the attic... or
> worse trying to climb back down!). I got the old fan at Sears and
> also got the variable speed dial there. I can't remember what I paid
> for that fan 20+ yr ago, but I know it wasn't a top of the line or
> anything special. I sort of assumed they all worked the same and was
> surprised when I encountered this one.
Yes, an electrician will know in short order what type of motor is in your
unit.
Jon
LSMFT
Yes, it's doable. There are variable AC motor controllers. They are not
cheap. Might be cheaper to replace the motor with a 3 speed wound rotor
motor or a DC motor with speed controller. Electrician can give you an
estimate.
--
LSMFT
I haven't spoken to my wife in 18 months.
I don't like to interrupt her.
RickH
Whole house fans are great. Yes you can put on a variable speed
controol, but I suggest you over-rate the control amperage you buy by
double. For example if the fan draws 5 amps then get a 10 amp
control. Also when turning it on make sure the control passes through
the higher speed, then you lower it. This is so the motor gets enough
starting current. I replaced the Off/High/Low switch on mine with a
variable speed. You only use the High speed motor input wire, just
cap the low speed wire.
Nonny
"RickH" <pass...@windcrestsoftware.com> wrote in message
news:c9f3f40b-94c4-4277...@c10g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
While a full variable speed controller would be nice, I wonder if
it really adds that much to the benefit of the fan. For instance,
the louvers of the fans require a minimum amount of pressure
differential for the air to open them, eliminating the lowest
speeds you could get with the controller. The one I installed in
our first house had a 2-speed switch for High/Low operation and we
seldom used it in any position other than High. Our second house
had two of the fans and again, both were left on High.
If the OP investigates and finds that his fan is a 2-speed one, my
suggestion would be to invest first in a DP switch and use the
high/low speeds to see if it's worth the added cost of buying a
full controller for anything intermediate or lower.
Nonny
--
On most days,
it's just not worth
the effort of chewing
through the restraints..
RickH
> "RickH" <passp...@windcrestsoftware.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
I needed a speed adjustor because sometimes you choose to not open
enough widows to keep up with the fan draw, so a nice slow fan is nice
if you just want one bedroom window open at night. Even on low, may
fan was overdrawing most of the time, its a 30 inch belt drive.
Also depending on how much output venting the user has in their roof
and eves, a variable speed lets you not overload the amount of air
your attic is capable of evacuating. Its cheaper than installing more
vents. Also the variable speed saves kilowatts. The louver spring
can be easily adjusted to require only a very light amount of air to
open them, mine pops open very easily.
keith
That depends on the motor. If it's a universal motor it'll probably
work fine. If it's an induction motor, probably not. Induction
motors tend to be "constant RPM" or with a given load, "constant
power" devices. As the voltage is reduced they'll want to maintain
RPM, which requires the same power, thus current increases.
If the fan is belt driven it's probably an induction motor.
Ed Pawlowski
"Nonny" <Nu...@gmail.com> wrote
>
> While a full variable speed controller would be nice, I wonder if it
> really adds that much to the benefit of the fan. For instance, the
> louvers of the fans require a minimum amount of pressure differential for
> the air to open them, eliminating the lowest speeds you could get with the
> controller.
I always start my fan on high for a couple of minutes to get the air
flowing. Then I can turn it to the lowest setting and it works just fine.
I like the variable speed and set it according to the needs at the moment.
Tony
If you use an AC motor speed controller it will work fine. It does not
control speed with changes in voltage, it changes speed with changes in
the frequency. This type of speed control also lets the fan run at
lower speeds without stalling. The days of the old rheostats are long gone.
Tony Hwang
Anything is possible. Like infinite speed control tied to the ambient
temp. Wonders of electronic engineering....
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
They're a tad expensive for a fan. Have you ever seen one on a whole house
fan?
Tony
What is the voltage and amperage ratings of the motor? Here are some
speed controllers to choose from.
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A3753381%2Cp_4%3ASpeed%20Control&page=1
bud--
> Lee B wrote:
>>
>> Current house came with a whole house fan (not an attic fan, but the
>> kind in a hallway ceiling that sucks air into the attic). I was happy to
>> see that because I really liked the one in my old house. However the one
>> in the old house had a variable speed dial on it, and the new house's
>> fan has just one speed - high and loud with a simple off/on switch.
>>
>> Is the variable speed a function of the fan itself or can that be added
>> at the switch? I'd definitely be having an electrician do it, but I'm
>> just trying to figure out if it's even doable, or if I'd end up needing
>> an entire new fan. And if so, would replacing an existing fan and switch
>> be difficult (ie cost me an arm and a leg)?
>>
My fan has a 2 speed motor. The 2 speeds are from separate windings -
each speed has a different number of poles in the motor.
You can easily control a "universal" motor - the type with brushes. Not
likely that is what is in the fan.
Three phase motors can be controlled by changing the frequency. No
possibility there is a 3 phase motor in the fan. The control would be
relatively expensive. I have never seen info, but I suspect the new
variable speed furnace motors are of this basically this type.
You could probably use a variable frequency control for a standard
induction motor, but if the speed falls to where the start switch in the
motor turns on you will probably burn out the motor. And probably
relatively expensive.
If you use a "phase angle" controller, like a light dimmer, you could
control the speed - the motor speed falls farther from the "rotating
field" speed. Has the same problem with start switches. I believe the
torque falls rapidly as the speed drops, but the power required for a
fan, if I remember right, is about the 4th power of the RPM.
>
> What is the voltage and amperage ratings of the motor? Here are some
> speed controllers to choose from.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A3753381%2Cp_4%3ASpeed%20Control&page=1
Briefly looking at the info for one of the speed controllers, it says it
is for shaded pole motors (which are used in clocks and my bathroom fan)
and permanent split capacitor motors, which is not likely what is
being used for the fan. Not obvious from what I saw that the 10A speed
control would work for a typical induction motor, which is probably what
powers the fan. These controls are probably "phase angle" controllers -
as above.
Outside of a 2 (or more speed) induction motor, I don't know how you
reliably control the speed of an induction motor that probably powers
the fan. How does the control work? How do you avoid problems with the
start switch?
--
bud--
mm
It's said that motors won't run off of light dimmers, but of the 6 or
so table fans I've used over the years, all but one worked fine. The
other one required a fan speed control, usually used for ceiling fans.
I got one at a surplus store.
I wouldnt' let the fan get so slow it stopped, althoughif the dimmer
is at the very bottom when this happens, maybe it's okay.. Depending
on the fan, it might well overheat if it did that, and burn out the
fuse (or worse?). Also if a whole house fan gets too slow, it won't
open the louvers I think, which are just sucked open.
keith
> On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 23:18:19 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
>
> <e...@snetnospam.net> wrote:
>
>
> >> It is a function of the motor, which will be a split-phase induction
> >> motor. You either have a motor designed with multiple windings for
> >> multiple speeds, or you don't. If you don't, the only practical way would
> >> be to replace the motor with one designed with multiple windings, or get a
> >> new unit.
>
> >Not quite true. Mine works with a simple dimmer switch of proper capacity.
> >Multiple windings not needed.
>
> It's said that motors won't run off of light dimmers, but of the 6 or
> so table fans I've used over the years, all but one worked fine. The
> other one required a fan speed control, usually used for ceiling fans.
> I got one at a surplus store.
*Induction* motors won't run off light dimmers. Universal motors will
(off dimmers rated for inductive loads). Small motors are almost
always universal motors. Whole house fans are likely a mix, with the
better ones being induction motors. Generally a belt is the tell
(belt => induction motor). I would guess the crossover is about
1/4HP.
mm
Originally they only came with one speed. Yes, I thought it was too
loud on high, especially since it was right outside my open bedroom
door.
mm
wrote:
>On Jul 13, 1:04 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 23:18:19 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
>>
>> <e...@snetnospam.net> wrote:
>>
>> >"Jon Danniken" <jonSPAMMENOTdanni...@yahSPAMhoo.com> wrote
>>
>> >> It is a function of the motor, which will be a split-phase induction
>> >> motor. You either have a motor designed with multiple windings for
>> >> multiple speeds, or you don't. If you don't, the only practical way would
>> >> be to replace the motor with one designed with multiple windings, or get a
>> >> new unit.
>>
>> >Not quite true. Mine works with a simple dimmer switch of proper capacity.
>> >Multiple windings not needed.
>>
>> It's said that motors won't run off of light dimmers, but of the 6 or
>> so table fans I've used over the years, all but one worked fine. The
>> other one required a fan speed control, usually used for ceiling fans.
>> I got one at a surplus store.
>
>*Induction* motors won't run off light dimmers. Universal motors will
>(off dimmers rated for inductive loads). Small motors are almost
>always universal motors. Whole house fans are likely a mix, with the
>better ones being induction motors. Generally a belt is the tell
>(belt => induction motor). I would guess the crossover is about
>1/4HP.
And of course, back to the oP's question, they sell fan speed controls
that mount like wall switches. Often there's a switch there for the
light that often comes with a ceiling fan. I presume whole-house fans
use more current than ceiling fans, but would the speed control be big
enough?
He could use teh toggle swtich for any old thing, including perhaps
turning off the fan without changing the speed setting.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
You're not listening. Whole house fans often (if not usually) use induction
motors. These motor controllers WILL NOT work with induction motors. You'll
likely burn up both.
Tony
Uh... hello? A shaded pole motor IS an induction motor. Motor speed
controllers will vary their speed by varying the frequency. Try google.
Tony
keith
Those are simple "dimmer" style controls. They are *not* for
induction motors.
JIMMIE
> Current house came with a whole house fan (not an attic fan, but the
> kind in a hallway ceiling that sucks air into the attic). I was happy to
> see that because I really liked the one in my old house. However the one
> in the old house had a variable speed dial on it, and the new house's
> fan has just one speed - high and loud with a simple off/on switch.
>
> Is the variable speed a function of the fan itself or can that be added
> at the switch? I'd definitely be having an electrician do it, but I'm
> just trying to figure out if it's even doable, or if I'd end up needing
> an entire new fan. And if so, would replacing an existing fan and switch
> be difficult (ie cost me an arm and a leg)?
The fan in my house was single speed. About the only thing it was
practical for was evacuating smoke when my wife burned dinner. I had
to replace the motor to get it to operate at lower speeds. Now its 3
speed and I stilll wish it had a slower speed. I am considering
mounting some muffin fans in the corners of the chassis for when I
want to draw a gentle flow into the house.
Jimmie
bud--
You will not find a shaded pole motor on a fan of any size - like a
"whole house" fan that makes too much noise.
The motor controller I commented on (from your previous post) is almost
certainly a "phase angle" control (like a light dimmer). It does not
change the frequency.
The controller I looked at was also stated to work with a permanent
split capacitor motor. If I remember right, they are a 2 winding motor
with a capacitor in series with one of the windings. There is no start
cap and no start switch. It is basically a 2-phase motor. (I don't
remember ever seeing one.)
Neither of the motors that the controller said it was good for has a
start switch. A "whole house" fan will almost certainly have an
induction motor with a start switch. Using a dimmer-type control, as
above, can easily burn out the motor. It is a misapplication according
to the limited information provided with the control.
--
bud--
Tony
http://www.kbelectronics.com/kbsearch/descriptions/popup_kbwc_115k.htm
It says Shaded Pole motors, which ARE induction motors. Unless you can
show me a shaded pole motor that is not an induction motor? I'd love to
see it!
Tony
What is it like to guess instead of going by the facts? Probably
everything goes your way, if you don't read the specs.
>
> The controller I looked at was also stated to work with a permanent
> split capacitor motor. If I remember right, they are a 2 winding motor
> with a capacitor in series with one of the windings. There is no start
> cap and no start switch. It is basically a 2-phase motor. (I don't
> remember ever seeing one.)
>
> Neither of the motors that the controller said it was good for has a
> start switch. A "whole house" fan will almost certainly have an
> induction motor with a start switch. Using a dimmer-type control, as
> above, can easily burn out the motor. It is a misapplication according
> to the limited information provided with the control.
There is a lot more info out there. I can't do all the work for you,
look up KB Electronics and read the specs. And if you look at the
picture, you will see that from the "off" position,the first "on"
position is "high". Yes it will start the motor.
Tony
Is it belt driven? How about a smaller drive pulley?
JimT
"Tony" <tony....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8a6g3f...@mid.individual.net...
LOL....Always worked for me. :)
RickH
<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
$39 is not too bad I dont think, I use the 10 amp one at the bottom of
this page (my fan only draws 5 amps but I wanted the controller to run
real cool so I oversized it): I got this same model for about $25
elsewhere.
RickH
>
> Briefly looking at the info for one of the speed controllers, it says it
> is for shaded pole motors (which are used in clocks and my bathroom fan)
> and permanent split capacitor motors, which is not likely what is
> being used for the fan. Not obvious from what I saw that the 10A speed
> control would work for a typical induction motor, which is probably what
> powers the fan. These controls are probably "phase angle" controllers -
> as above.
>
> Outside of a 2 (or more speed) induction motor, I don't know how you
> reliably control the speed of an induction motor that probably powers
> the fan. How does the control work? How do you avoid problems with the
> start switch?
>
> --
> bud--
Mine works great, the KB controller I got hooks up in series, I capped
the low speed wire on the motor and just use the high speed one.
RickH
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, below is the model I am using with the 30 inch belt drive WHF
currently being sold by Home Depot (I think its called Master Flow).
http://www.kbelectronics.com/kbsearch/descriptions/popup_kbwc_110kb.htm
Works great but I did want to inform the family to start it on high
before turning it lower, but even if they did spin the knob to low
from off quickly the motor still starts ok. The off click goes
straight to High, turning the knob clockwise keeps getting lower,
which is the proper configuration for a motor speed control.
Light dimmers are bad because they force the motor to start on Low and
you must quickly crank the knob to get to High. Having the
potentiameter go from Off click to High to Low as you move clockwise
is the proper configuration for a fan control.
keith
You won't find a whole house fan that uses a shaded pole motor, but go
ahead and smoke your fan.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
That's a "dimmer" style controller. Do *not* use that for an induction motor.
Induction motors need a VFD type controller, which is far more expensive.
Tony
I said those dimmers were indeed for shaded pole motors, someone
disagreed, I don't really care who it was. But the fact is that the
speed controls I suggested can be used on shaded pole motors.
Hell, I don't even have a whole house fan, so I don't suppose there is
much chance of me smoking my fan. Unless it was made of hemp. No not
really.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
>keith wrote:
>> On Jul 14, 1:58 pm, Tony <tony.mik...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> keith wrote:
>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A3753381%2Cp_4%3ASpeed%20Contro...
>>>> Those are simple "dimmer" style controls. They are *not* for
>>>> induction motors.
>>> http://www.kbelectronics.com/kbsearch/descriptions/popup_kbwc_115k.htm
>>> It says Shaded Pole motors, which ARE induction motors. Unless you can
>>> show me a shaded pole motor that is not an induction motor? I'd love to
>>> see it!
>>
>> You won't find a whole house fan that uses a shaded pole motor, but go
>> ahead and smoke your fan.
>
>I said those dimmers were indeed for shaded pole motors, someone
>disagreed, I don't really care who it was. But the fact is that the
>speed controls I suggested can be used on shaded pole motors.
I didn't see anyone saying that they weren't for shaded pole motors (or
universal motors, for that matter), only to *not* use them on induction
motors.
>Hell, I don't even have a whole house fan, so I don't suppose there is
>much chance of me smoking my fan. Unless it was made of hemp. No not
>really.
The thread is about controlling the speed of whole house fans, idiot.
RickH
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well It's been working great for 3 years now, and it runs cool, the
heat sink on the 10 amp controller barely gets warm powering a 4 amp
fan.
Here is the wording from their web site (note it says ok for fans):
"The KBWC-110K provides infinitely variable speed motor control for
Shaded Pole, Permanent Split Capacitor and Universal (AC/DC) motors.
The variable speed motor control contains the following features; an
on/off line switch, RFI filter, minimum speed trimpot and a flame-
retardant ABS enclosure. Applications include range hoods, vibrators,
humidifiers, fireplace blowers, fans, laminar flow hoods, heat tunnels
and stirrers."
keith
Do you notice a "for induction motors" in there? Huh?
> The variable speed motor control contains the following features; an
> on/off line switch, RFI filter, minimum speed trimpot and a flame-
> retardant ABS enclosure. Applications include range hoods, vibrators,
> humidifiers, fireplace blowers, fans, laminar flow hoods, heat tunnels
> and stirrers."
Did you notice "whole house fans" in there? <sheesh!>
Tony
> On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 21:24:39 -0400, Tony <tony....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> keith wrote:
>>> On Jul 14, 1:58 pm, Tony <tony.mik...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> keith wrote:
>>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A3753381%2Cp_4%3ASpeed%20Contro...
>>>>> Those are simple "dimmer" style controls. They are *not* for
>>>>> induction motors.
>>>> http://www.kbelectronics.com/kbsearch/descriptions/popup_kbwc_115k.htm
>>>> It says Shaded Pole motors, which ARE induction motors. Unless you can
>>>> show me a shaded pole motor that is not an induction motor? I'd love to
>>>> see it!
>>> You won't find a whole house fan that uses a shaded pole motor, but go
>>> ahead and smoke your fan.
>> I said those dimmers were indeed for shaded pole motors, someone
>> disagreed, I don't really care who it was. But the fact is that the
>> speed controls I suggested can be used on shaded pole motors.
>
> I didn't see anyone saying that they weren't for shaded pole motors (or
> universal motors, for that matter), only to *not* use them on induction
> motors.
Oh, OK. Now show me a shaded pole motor that isn't an induction motor.
>> Hell, I don't even have a whole house fan, so I don't suppose there is
>> much chance of me smoking my fan. Unless it was made of hemp. No not
>> really.
>
> The thread is about controlling the speed of whole house fans, idiot.
So I have to own one to reply? Show me a shaded pole motor that isn't
an induction motor.
keith
Idiot. Not all induction motors are shaded pole. Shaded pole motors
are *NOT* used for whole house fans.
Smitty Two
keith wrote:
> Tony wrote:
> >
> > Show me a shaded pole motor that isn't
> > an induction motor.
>
> Idiot. Not all induction motors are shaded pole.
Was it the English language they stopped teaching in school, or just
"logic and syllogisms" class?
bud--
Guessing?
Facts: a variable frequency drive converts the AC line to DC and then
inverts that to variable frequency AC. There is no way the enclosures
have enough space for the filter capacitors that would be required. Also
way to cheap. And all VFDs I have seen are for 3 phase motors.
They are "phase angle" controls.
> Probably
> everything goes your way, if you don't read the specs.
I read the specs - "shaded pole" or "PSC motors". Neither of these
motors has a start switch. Find me a "whole house" fan that uses either.
Someone else said that shaded pole motors are about 1/4 HP max. In a
fast look at Grainger I only saw 1/5 HP max. Find a "whole house" fan
that only uses a 1/5 HP motor.
>
>> The controller I looked at was also stated to work with a permanent
>> split capacitor motor. If I remember right, they are a 2 winding motor
>> with a capacitor in series with one of the windings. There is no start
>> cap and no start switch. It is basically a 2-phase motor. (I don't
>> remember ever seeing one.)
>>
>> Neither of the motors that the controller said it was good for has a
>> start switch. A "whole house" fan will almost certainly have an
>> induction motor with a start switch. Using a dimmer-type control, as
>> above, can easily burn out the motor. It is a misapplication according
>> to the limited information provided with the control.
>
> There is a lot more info out there. I can't do all the work for you,
> look up KB Electronics and read the specs. And if you look at the
> picture, you will see that from the "off" position,the first "on"
> position is "high". Yes it will start the motor.
If you set the speed too low will the motor start switch close? If it
does the motor is likely toast. The motors in the manufacturer's spec do
not have a start switch. There is a reason.
Where in the specs does it say the control is good for an induction
motor with a start switch that would be used on a "whole house" fan?
Seems to be a lot of people who disagree with you.
--
bud--
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
The biggest I found was 1/6HP, so said 1/4HP to make some wiggle room. The
plan worked. ;-)
>>> The controller I looked at was also stated to work with a permanent
>>> split capacitor motor. If I remember right, they are a 2 winding motor
>>> with a capacitor in series with one of the windings. There is no start
>>> cap and no start switch. It is basically a 2-phase motor. (I don't
>>> remember ever seeing one.)
>>>
>>> Neither of the motors that the controller said it was good for has a
>>> start switch. A "whole house" fan will almost certainly have an
>>> induction motor with a start switch. Using a dimmer-type control, as
>>> above, can easily burn out the motor. It is a misapplication according
>>> to the limited information provided with the control.
>>
>> There is a lot more info out there. I can't do all the work for you,
>> look up KB Electronics and read the specs. And if you look at the
>> picture, you will see that from the "off" position,the first "on"
>> position is "high". Yes it will start the motor.
>
>If you set the speed too low will the motor start switch close? If it
>does the motor is likely toast. The motors in the manufacturer's spec do
>not have a start switch. There is a reason.
>
>Where in the specs does it say the control is good for an induction
>motor with a start switch that would be used on a "whole house" fan?
>
>Seems to be a lot of people who disagree with you.
Only the ones who have a clue about basic electricity.
Tony
not work on an induction motor. The specs says it does. That's all. I
didn't argue that they would work for a whole house fan. My grinder is
1/2hp and it has an induction motor.
Here is a 2HP induction motor. There are many more even larger.
http://www.biscuitplantspares.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11&products_id=32
Again, the motor speed controllers I posted a link to do work on
induction motors. That is a fact. That's all I'm saying. What did I
post that is not true?
Tony
No shit. I never said they were, it was your buddies who keep throwing
"shaded pole" into the conversation. I just replied that a shaded pole
motor is indeed an induction motor. Go back and see who first mentioned
shaded pole motors. It wasn't me.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
You kept bringing them up, apparently to show how "bright" you are. Didn't
work.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Moron, the thread is *about* whole house fans. Induction motor powered whole
house fans *CANNOT* be "dimmed".
>Here is a 2HP induction motor. There are many more even larger.
>http://www.biscuitplantspares.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11&products_id=32
>
>http://www.google.com/search?q=1%2F2hp+grinder+induction+motor&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
>
>Again, the motor speed controllers I posted a link to do work on
>induction motors. That is a fact. That's all I'm saying. What did I
>post that is not true?
What an idiot.
vertigo72480
Whole house fans are designed to ventilate a home when the ambient
temperatures are nice enough to open the windows and doors. This facilitates
air movement with out needing to put box fans in windows.
--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/whole-house-fan-possible-to-add-variable-speed-452575-.htm
Oren
<caedfaa9ed1216d60ef...@example.com> wrote:
>replying to DA, vertigo72480 wrote:
>Whole house fans are designed to ventilate a home when the ambient
>temperatures are nice enough to open the windows and doors. This facilitates
>air movement with out needing to put box fans in windows.
was about adding a variable speed control. Dummy home groaner from
the groaner hub site.
hrho...@att.net
gregz
some. Enough to keep calmer. They can be very loud. Some older belt fans
were pretty quiet.
Greg
gfre...@aol.com
wrote:
(1/4-1/8 hp) They are 24" units 22" blade and on 1/4 hp they move a
lot of air. On 1/8 they are very quiet.
You can also find 3 speed or even 4 speed motors but be sure they are
matched to the blade in high speed. It is like propping a boat. If you
have too little pitch you are losing performance and to high a pitch
will lug the motor and burn it up.
FanOfWholeHouseFans
I beg to differ with "better than nothing." . Living in a dry climate where
the nights cool down very nicely, a whole house fan is the way to go for
cooling cheaply and sustainably in an overtaxed climate, and it works well.
Shut curtains and Windows all day to keep cool air in and hot air out. Then,
once the evening outside temp drops near or below the inside temp, we open
every window and switch on the whole house fan, which cools down the house
lickety split with fresh air. BUT, these things are loud and we could not
sleep with it on or watch tv or talK on the phone. So I too keep looking for a
variable speed fan that we can run quietly on low all night and when we need
to hear. Would someone please manufacture these. There are lots of us out here
who hate AC and want to do things more sustainably and who prefer exchanging
stale house sir with fresh air, and who live in places where cool night air in
summer is the best way of truly conditioning the ai!
Jack
roof. If the attic temp goes 5F above outdoor ambient, you need to add
more attic venting.
A hotter-than-ambient attic just needlessly raises your electric bill.
Ed Pawlowski
> replying to JimT, FanOfWholeHouseFans wrote:
> I beg to differ with "better than nothing." . Living in a dry climate where
> the nights cool down very nicely, a whole house fan is the way to go for
> cooling cheaply and sustainably in an overtaxed climate, and it works well.
> Shut curtains and Windows all day to keep cool air in and hot air out.
> Then,
> once the evening outside temp drops near or below the inside temp, we open
> every window and switch on the whole house fan, which cools down the house
> lickety split with fresh air. BUT, these things are loud and we could not
> sleep with it on or watch tv or talK on the phone. So I too keep looking
> for a
> variable speed fan that we can run quietly on low all night and when we
> need
> to hear. Would someone please manufacture these. There are lots of us
> out here
> who hate AC and want to do things more sustainably and who prefer
> exchanging
> stale house sir with fresh air, and who live in places where cool night
> air in
> summer is the best way of truly conditioning the ai!
>
put mine in 30 years ago. Works well.
On high, the fan sucks so much air it sucked my pet gerbil up and tossed
them around and finally spit them out the soffits.
trader_4
trader_4
I have yet to see any attic where the attic temp in summer is just 5F
above ambient outside temp. Typical is more than several times that. Which is
what insulation is for. 5F is nuts and is never going to happen with
passive, even with fans it would require moving a lot of air when it's
85F+ and sunny.
gfre...@aol.com
<caedfaa9ed1216d60ef...@example.com> wrote:
>replying to JimT, FanOfWholeHouseFans wrote:
>I beg to differ with "better than nothing." . Living in a dry climate where
>the nights cool down very nicely, a whole house fan is the way to go for
>cooling cheaply and sustainably in an overtaxed climate, and it works well.
>Shut curtains and Windows all day to keep cool air in and hot air out. Then,
>once the evening outside temp drops near or below the inside temp, we open
>every window and switch on the whole house fan, which cools down the house
>lickety split with fresh air. BUT, these things are loud and we could not
>sleep with it on or watch tv or talK on the phone. So I too keep looking for a
>variable speed fan that we can run quietly on low all night and when we need
>to hear. Would someone please manufacture these. There are lots of us out here
>who hate AC and want to do things more sustainably and who prefer exchanging
>stale house sir with fresh air, and who live in places where cool night air in
>summer is the best way of truly conditioning the ai!
half the year. I agree with Trader, even with two 22" fans running on
high, I never get the 1600 sq/ft attic below that mythical "5 degrees
above ambient" if the sun is shining.
As for variable speed, the best way is with multi speed motors.
You size the blade to the motor running on high and it will work OK at
the lower speeds. If the blade is not properly sized, you will burn up
the motor (too much pitch) or simply waste energy with it not moving
enough air (too little pitch).
The Grainger catalog has charts that will help you with this
selection.
One of my fans is 2 speed, one is 4 speed. (probably overkill since we
still only use two).
cl...@snyder.on.ca
will be WAY over 5 degrees over ambient. If I open the 6<2 foot gable
end door in the attic of my 15X15 foot shed and open the 6'6"x32" door
in the bottom, with a 3.3X3.3 foot opening between the main shed and
the attic, on an eveage summer day it will be over 10C hotter in the
attic, unless the breeze is coming from the south, blowing in the
attic door. The toof has a full length ridge vent and about 90 square
feet of fully open vented soffit