Countertops - Lineal Feet?
Joe Suhadolnik
calculations of lineal feet.
My kitchen base cabinets form a U shape with 2 sides against the walls
and a peninsula off one end. It sorta looks like this....
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For simplicity sake, let's say all 3 sides are 8 foot in length and
the base cabinets are 24" wide. What's the total lineal footage?
a) Would it be 24'? 8+8+8=24
b) Would it be 20'? 8+4+8=20 (2-8' side + the 4' left over on top)
c) Would it be double the above because of the 24" width of the base
cabinets? (48 or 40 feet)
d) Would the space used by a stove (30") be deducted?
I think my countertop guy quoted a) ......I think it should be b).
Final question... the countertop guy wants to put the seam diagonally
at the right corner. My existing countertop has the seam right in the
middle of the sink (top piece of my drawing above). Any ideas why he
wants to put the seam on the diagonal? Oh, BTW, this is just a plain
laminate countertop... no postform backsplash; a seperate laminate
piece for backsplash. thanks!
Joe
FNO Toolman
the back of the counters. In your case the 24' figure is correct. The
stove is a cutout within the counter so it does not factor in, neither
does the sink. If you were figuring square footage then your 40 sq.ft.
figure would be correct. Countertops are figured by the back lineal
footage so that you have enough stock to make the appropriate joints
between the different directions of the counter. If you took your 20'
figure, you would end up 4 feet short on the back side of the counter
with preformed counter tops. If you are making a 45 degree joint between
the two angles of the counter surface without preformed countertops, the
same applies.
FNO Toolman
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Joe Suhadolnik wrote in message <36db1be0.2621688@news>...
FNO Toolman
selling an additional 4' of tops the customer is not getting
If you put your tops in with 45 degree angles at the corners, you will
need 24 feet of countertop... You might be forgetting that to make the
45 degree angle work, without piecing it together with small pieces, you
need to have each of the 8 foot sections go all the way into the
corners. To make this counter work with only one seam, you would have to
make a square cut seam to one side or the other of the back piece, or
somewhere in the middle of the back section. This would create a seam
next to the sink which would make it very visible, or if in the middle,
it would leave the seam under the sink and vulnerable to moisture from
the sink and this is not preferable either.
>Assuming the stove is a drop-in that is correct. If the stove is free
>standing... then there is 30" less of top factored in.
On a 24" deep counter you are right, on a 28" counter, there is a 1"
strip that goes behind the stove to bring the front of the stove flush
with the front of the counter. At least this is how I do it so there is
no gap behind the stove for things to fall in. Most stoves measure
26-27" inches deep...
>that he has been measuring wrong or is being overcharged by >someone he
buys his custom tops from.
Every cabinet company I have ever worked with would consider this a
24 lineal foot counter.
The 45 degree corners are much less likely to pull up or chip as
they don't pose a square edge for things sliding across the counters to
catch on. They are more inconspicuous, and are not as susceptible to the
moisture . I believe they look better as well. But that is just my 2
cents worth......
TinMan1332
>the base cabinets are 24" wide. What's the total lineal footage?
>
>a) Would it be 24'? 8+8+8=24
>b) Would it be 20'? 8+4+8=20 (2-8' side + the 4' left over on top)
>c) Would it be double the above because of the 24" width of the base
> cabinets? (48 or 40 feet)
>d) Would the space used by a stove (30") be deducted?
The correct way to measure tops is "B." You don't count the corners twice. The
total measurement of top length is what you should pay for. The area for a
freestanding range is not included, but... all measurements are generally
rounded up to the next whole foot (i.e. 24.5' would be billed as 26').
>Final question... the countertop guy wants to put the seam diagonally
>at the right corner. My existing countertop has the seam right in the
>middle of the sink (top piece of my drawing above). Any ideas why he
>wants to put the seam on the diagonal? Oh, BTW, this is just a plain
>laminate countertop... no postform backsplash; a seperate laminate
>piece for backsplash. thanks!
Only woodgrained laminate tops get a seam in the corner on a 45* All others
should have the seam hidden where the least amount shows (such as the seam you
now have at the sink. Without knowing the actual dimensions of your top, who
knows why he wants to put the seam there. I could be that he wants to use some
smaller sheets of laminate he has in stock or just about any other reason
ranging from good to bad... just can't tell w/o the exact sizes.
J.P.
TinMan1332
>the back of the counters. In your case the 24' figure is correct.
That would be incorrect. You have counted the corner areas twice, thus selling
an additional 4' of tops the customer is not getting
.>The
>stove is a cutout within the counter so it does not factor in, neither
>does the sink.
Assuming the stove is a drop-in that is correct. If the stove is free
standing... then there is 30" less of top factored in.
>Countertops are figured by the back lineal
>footage so that you have enough stock to make the appropriate joints
>between the different directions of the counter. If you took your 20'
>figure, you would end up 4 feet short on the back side of the counter
>with preformed counter tops. If you are making a 45 degree joint between
>the two angles of the counter surface without preformed countertops, the
>same applies.
True for post formed tops only (which the poster states he is not using).
Custom tops are never figured this way... at least not by any reputable
business in my region. I am not claiming that toolman is not reputable... just
that he has been measuring wrong or is being overcharged by someone he buys his
custom tops from.
J.P.
TinMan1332
>need 24 feet of countertop... You might be forgetting that to make the
>45 degree angle work,
Making a custom top, that spans a U shape 8x8x8... then putting a miter joint
on the laminate in a corner has nothing to do with 45* corners and does not
compare to cheap postformed lumberyard tops that have 45* corners. Only the
laminate is placed on a 45 to help hide the seam... the substrate (plywood or
particle board) is continous. A custom top with or with out a 45 degree seam
(it's not an angled top... it's a seam) is still measured by not counting the
area of the 45* seam in question, but rather the total length of the top (so as
not to count corners twice). The labor in making the seam is the same if it's
at 90* or 45*, the amount of material to make the substrate is the same and so
is the labor. The amount of laminate to cover the top is the same... only the
best method to hide the seam (i.e. a 45* a 90*) is the difference. So even with
a 45* seam, the original posters selection "B" is the correct method of
measure.
J.P.
FNO Toolman
wide counter surface to make the 45 seam in each of the corners. If you
only have two 6 foot sections and one 8 foot section (or 2-8' sections &
1-4') of countertop, that is 2 feet wide, you will NOT have enough to
make a 45 seam in the corners. You would have to have square seams. The
back distance is what dictates the requirement for length of counter
material to do 45 degree corner seams... This is how they figure it in
my world anyway.
FNO Toolman
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<19990302012608...@ng123.aol.com>...
FNO Toolman
I am talking about solid surfacing (laminate) and you must be
talking about a pieced surfacing (tile). If you are using tile for the
counter surface than you are right, if you are using a laminate
(Formica), then my reasoning is right. I guess it depends on what you
are using for the surface as to how you see the answer to this
question???
My kitchens all have Formica (or Corian, that does not require 45
seams) and the tile is limited to the bathroom vanities. Therefore, my
mind is not in the habit of figuring "U" shaped requirements using tile.
I hope this clears up our debate???
FNO Toolman
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Joe Suhadolnik
<toolma...@familynews.org> wrote:
>I think I just figured out what the issue is here TinMan.... (duh)
> I am talking about solid surfacing (laminate) and you must be
>talking about a pieced surfacing (tile). If you are using tile for the
>counter surface than you are right, if you are using a laminate
>(Formica), then my reasoning is right. I guess it depends on what you
>are using for the surface as to how you see the answer to this
>question???
> My kitchens all have Formica (or Corian, that does not require 45
>seams) and the tile is limited to the bathroom vanities. Therefore, my
>mind is not in the habit of figuring "U" shaped requirements using tile.
>I hope this clears up our debate???
>FNO Toolman
WAIT A MINUTE!!! <grin> Since I originally asked the question....
The countertop is going to be a laminate. It is NOT Postformed. It
WILL have a seperate backsplash. I WANT the seam under the sink -
this is a re-model... the existing seam now is under the sink. I'm
questioning why the countertop guy wants to put a seam on the diagonal
in the corner and why he was essentially charging me double for each
corner of the peninsula.
I hope I get a good answer by Wednesday AM because I'm shelling out
the $$ Wed. afternoon and I need some basis for my argument.
Thanks!!
Joe
TinMan1332
>wide counter surface to make the 45 seam in each of the corners. If you
>only have two 6 foot sections and one 8 foot section (or 2-8' sections &
>1-4') of countertop, that is 2 feet wide, you will NOT have enough to
>make a 45 seam in the corners. You would have to have square seams. The
>back distance is what dictates the requirement for length of counter
>material to do 45 degree corner seams...
True, but the slight amount of laminate to do a 45* seam (not to be confused
with a 45* top) is minimal in cost to building of the substrate (the actual
top) and is dismissed by all shops I know including mine. BTW, the original
poster e-mailed me his actual dimensions and there is no need that I can see
for a 45* seam (unless the cabinet shop never heard of 5' wide laminate).
J.P.
TinMan1332
> I am talking about solid surfacing (laminate) and you must be
>talking about a pieced surfacing (tile). If you are using tile for the
>counter surface than you are right, if you are using a laminate
>(Formica), then my reasoning is right. I guess it depends on what you
>are using for the surface as to how you see the answer to this
>question???
I am also speaking in laminate terms as well (see my other reply).
> My kitchens all have Formica (or Corian, that does not require 45
>seams)
Joe Suhadolnik's laminate kitchen tops should not require a 45* seam according
to the measurements I received in e-mail. Corian and other solid surface
material is sold by the sq. foot, laminate counter tops are sold by the running
foot. The point I am unable to make is that it's a seam in the laminate only,
not the tops... the little extra laminate needed is not figured like a post
formed mitered top is. The seam location in the laminate does not alter the
measurements of running feet.
J.P.
FNO Toolman
If we put aside the original question, and go directly on how many
lineal feet of laminate would be needed to cover this counter, with
square seams, then the answer is actually 12 lineal feet. Figuring that
a 5' wide piece, 8 feet long would cover two of the 8' lengths, you
would only need an extra 4 feet (or less) to cover the back "U" and be
left with a 4' piece of waste.
This is not what the original poster asked though. He asked how a
cabinet (counter) person figures lineal feet of counter space for
billing purposes only. This is done by adding the length of the back of
the counters, and the lineal feet of surface used for tops does not
count at all. Every cabinet person I have ever worked with does it this
way.
Although... I have never needed to hire a sub to just put in counter
surfaces, this has always been a job that coincides with the cabinets
themselves. Whenever I have needed to install tops alone, I have done it
myself. Maybe when just installing tops, it is figured your way? I know
when the job is done as a whole, it is figured my way in the NW.
Maybe a more productive answer to this persons question is the final
bill? Who cares how the estimate is figured, and what process is taken
to get there, it's the bottom line that counts. If he has only gotten
bids from the one installer, than he has no clue what the going rate is
for this job in his area. I would suggest getting at least 3 bids and go
from there, keeping in mind that bottom line figures are not the only
deciding point. If the original poster likes this persons work, and he
is the guy he wants to do the job, then he is going to have to pay his
bill no matter how he calculated it.
FNO Toolman
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TinMan1332 wrote in message
TinMan1332
It looks like we measure differently. I would love to measure along the back
and get the extra money, but then my bid would be different from the next guys.
I feel that the way these are measured round these parts is a fair method
anyway and if I had to change I would feel like I was selling something the
customer didn't get (just my personal feeling). BTW Joe's quoted prices per
running foot were fair prices.
J.P.
Phil Marshall
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