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About Fire... Is there an explanation for the flames?
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tange...@toyotamail.com
May 18, 2012, 6:39:07 AM5/18/12
to
Probably more off topic than on, but I was burning some twigs and rotten
logs, when suddenly a question arose. Probably more of a science
question. But is there really an answer?
The question is this: What are the flames made of? Yes, I know that
they are the gasses from burning wood, or from gas or oil, or anything
else that burns. These gasses mix with oxygen and burn. That is all
understood. What is not understood is what is the actual flame that we
see? They are usually yellow and orange and semi transparent. Or they
are blue from natural or LP gas and also semi transparent. They emit
light and heat. But what is the flame and why do we see it?
Maybe I'm getting too deep in my thinking about it. After all, its
called FIRE, and maybe there is no further explanation. But the flames
are real. They can be seen. Yet, what are they?
We know how the light from a lightbulb is created and florescent lights
are different than filament types, because they produce ultraviolet
light (which we can not see), but that makes the florescent particles
glow. While we can explain how light is created from light bulbs, I've
never gotten a real explanation about how fire becomes visible. Does it
also produce ultraviolet? Is there some florescent type material in the
gasses that make it glow?
logs, when suddenly a question arose. Probably more of a science
question. But is there really an answer?
The question is this: What are the flames made of? Yes, I know that
they are the gasses from burning wood, or from gas or oil, or anything
else that burns. These gasses mix with oxygen and burn. That is all
understood. What is not understood is what is the actual flame that we
see? They are usually yellow and orange and semi transparent. Or they
are blue from natural or LP gas and also semi transparent. They emit
light and heat. But what is the flame and why do we see it?
Maybe I'm getting too deep in my thinking about it. After all, its
called FIRE, and maybe there is no further explanation. But the flames
are real. They can be seen. Yet, what are they?
We know how the light from a lightbulb is created and florescent lights
are different than filament types, because they produce ultraviolet
light (which we can not see), but that makes the florescent particles
glow. While we can explain how light is created from light bulbs, I've
never gotten a real explanation about how fire becomes visible. Does it
also produce ultraviolet? Is there some florescent type material in the
gasses that make it glow?
Tegger
May 18, 2012, 8:37:31 AM5/18/12
to
tange...@toyotamail.com wrote in news:jq8cr7t3lsc9mjsad...@4ax.com:
> Probably more off topic than on, but I was burning some twigs and rotten
> logs, when suddenly a question arose. Probably more of a science
> question. But is there really an answer?
>
> The question is this: What are the flames made of?
<http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=what+are+flames+made+of%3F&oq=what+are+flames+made+of%3F&aq=f&aqi=g-K1g-b1&aql=&gs_l=hp.3..0i30j0i8.145.4216.0.4585.24.16.0.8.8.0.115.1451.14j2.16.0...0.0.EHb6F_D2YC8&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=3ea9e7040e6f954e&biw=2560&bih=1294>
--
Tegger
> Probably more off topic than on, but I was burning some twigs and rotten
> logs, when suddenly a question arose. Probably more of a science
> question. But is there really an answer?
>
> The question is this: What are the flames made of?
--
Tegger
Frank
May 18, 2012, 9:06:47 AM5/18/12
to
Yellow flames are due to presence of sodium which is lacking in gas or
oil flame although it only takes a trace.
Don Phillipson
May 18, 2012, 9:57:58 AM5/18/12
to
<tange...@toyotamail.com> wrote in message
news:jq8cr7t3lsc9mjsad...@4ax.com...
> The question is this: What are the flames made of? Yes, I know that
> they are the gasses from burning wood, or from gas or oil, or anything
> else that burns. These gasses mix with oxygen and burn. That is all
> understood. What is not understood is what is the actual flame that we
> see? They are usually yellow and orange and semi transparent. Or they
> are blue from natural or LP gas and also semi transparent. They emit
> light and heat. But what is the flame and why do we see it?
1: Short: Any high school chemistry teacher ought to be able to
tell you. This is now part of the core curriculum.
2. Long: Yours was a top question of scientific research in the
18th century, thereafter believed solved and thus abandoned,
revived in the 20th century by the new technique of spectrum
analysis, currently a hot topic today in astrophysics (because
observing the flames is our chief source of data about other suns.)
A good library (and PBS TV) can help you catch up concerning this.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
news:jq8cr7t3lsc9mjsad...@4ax.com...
> The question is this: What are the flames made of? Yes, I know that
> they are the gasses from burning wood, or from gas or oil, or anything
> else that burns. These gasses mix with oxygen and burn. That is all
> understood. What is not understood is what is the actual flame that we
> see? They are usually yellow and orange and semi transparent. Or they
> are blue from natural or LP gas and also semi transparent. They emit
> light and heat. But what is the flame and why do we see it?
tell you. This is now part of the core curriculum.
2. Long: Yours was a top question of scientific research in the
18th century, thereafter believed solved and thus abandoned,
revived in the 20th century by the new technique of spectrum
analysis, currently a hot topic today in astrophysics (because
observing the flames is our chief source of data about other suns.)
A good library (and PBS TV) can help you catch up concerning this.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Zz Yzx
May 18, 2012, 10:31:51 AM5/18/12
to
Stormin Mormon
May 18, 2012, 12:12:19 PM5/18/12
to
And, yes, the theory of phlogiston was revised a bit.
Cooking red mercury to provide dephlogistonated air, and all.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote in message news:jp5lq0
Cooking red mercury to provide dephlogistonated air, and all.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote in message news:jp5lq0
harry
May 18, 2012, 1:11:37 PM5/18/12
to
you get soot.
Frank
May 18, 2012, 1:26:48 PM5/18/12
to
test:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame
Oren
May 18, 2012, 2:54:21 PM5/18/12
to
On Fri, 18 May 2012 07:31:51 -0700, Zz Yzx <zzy...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
..."When you're running down the street on fire, people get out of
your way!" Richard Pryor
... on crack.
wrote:
..."When you're running down the street on fire, people get out of
your way!" Richard Pryor
... on crack.
Steve Barker
May 18, 2012, 7:21:02 PM5/18/12
to
"Imagine if our whole universe is just a speck of dust under the
fingernail of some giant being...."
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
Steve Barker
May 18, 2012, 7:22:24 PM5/18/12
to
light?" "
Ed Pawlowski
May 18, 2012, 10:08:20 PM5/18/12
to
On Fri, 18 May 2012 05:39:07 -0500, tange...@toyotamail.com wrote:
>Probably more off topic than on, but I was burning some twigs and rotten
>logs, when suddenly a question arose. Probably more of a science
>question. But is there really an answer?
>
I see you got the answers, but let me add to this. Ever try to burn
>Probably more off topic than on, but I was burning some twigs and rotten
>logs, when suddenly a question arose. Probably more of a science
>question. But is there really an answer?
>
one log? Pretty difficult. Two is easy. You can watch the flame go
back and forth as they feed off of each other.
micky
May 18, 2012, 10:16:39 PM5/18/12
to
iirc gain energy during the combustion. I think you should read about
quantum mechanics. Energy raises an electron to a high level and then
the level drops again, not gradually, but by one (or sometimes more?)
quanta iiuc, and when it drops, it give off light. Of course the next
question is again, Why?.
This applies to chemical, incandescent, and fluoresent light, iiuc.
It seems every time a question gets answered, it leaves another
question sthat isn't answered.
IIRC, I think the size of the quantum is determined by the material
that is burning, and that determines the color of the flame.
They use a spectrometer to find the various colors of light coming
from stars and maybe non-stars, and the mixutre and percentage of
colors is what they use to announce what those things are made of.
Dan Espen
May 18, 2012, 10:46:04 PM5/18/12
to
excited from one energy level to another and dropping back.
At one level there is more energy than at the other level.
Since energy is neither created or destroyed, the change in energy
level must be accounted for. What happens is that a photon (a unit
of light) gets emitted or absorbed.
When you see a flame you are seeing photons being emitted.
--
Dan Espen
Jim Yanik
May 18, 2012, 11:21:51 PM5/18/12
to
Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote in
news:k10er7hlni8uogqth...@4ax.com:
surface area is a big factor.
that is why kindling is used to start a fire,more surface area.
it's why steel wool burns.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
news:k10er7hlni8uogqth...@4ax.com:
that is why kindling is used to start a fire,more surface area.
it's why steel wool burns.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
micky
May 19, 2012, 1:10:56 AM5/19/12
to
On Fri, 18 May 2012 22:46:04 -0400, Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net>
wrote:
Yeah, that's it. Thanks for finishing my post.
wrote:
Doug
May 19, 2012, 2:12:55 AM5/19/12
to
>Probably more off topic than on, but I was burning some twigs and rotten
>logs, when suddenly a question arose. Probably more of a science
>question. But is there really an answer?
>
>The question is this: What are the flames made of? Yes, I know that
>they are the gasses from burning wood, or from gas or oil, or anything
>else that burns. These gasses mix with oxygen and burn. That is all
>understood. What is not understood is what is the actual flame that we
>see? They are usually yellow and orange and semi transparent. Or they
>are blue from natural or LP gas and also semi transparent. They emit
>light and heat. But what is the flame and why do we see it?
>
>Maybe I'm getting too deep in my thinking about it. After all, its
>
Yes you are <g>. Think more of safety instead !!
>logs, when suddenly a question arose. Probably more of a science
>question. But is there really an answer?
>
>The question is this: What are the flames made of? Yes, I know that
>they are the gasses from burning wood, or from gas or oil, or anything
>else that burns. These gasses mix with oxygen and burn. That is all
>understood. What is not understood is what is the actual flame that we
>see? They are usually yellow and orange and semi transparent. Or they
>are blue from natural or LP gas and also semi transparent. They emit
>light and heat. But what is the flame and why do we see it?
>
>Maybe I'm getting too deep in my thinking about it. After all, its
>
Stormin Mormon
May 19, 2012, 5:53:45 AM5/19/12
to
100 or so years ago, there was the "soda cracker" theory. That we were just
an atom in some big universe's soda cracker. The theory was met with a big,
if some what nervous laugh.
"Steve Barker" <ichase...@notgmail.com> wrote in message
an atom in some big universe's soda cracker. The theory was met with a big,
if some what nervous laugh.
"Steve Barker" <ichase...@notgmail.com> wrote in message
tange...@toyotamail.com
May 20, 2012, 1:00:02 AM5/20/12
to
>> IIRC the light is caused by excited electons (or molecules?) which
>> iirc gain energy during the combustion. I think you should read about
>> quantum mechanics. Energy raises an electron to a high level and then
>> the level drops again, not gradually, but by one (or sometimes more?)
>> quanta iiuc, and when it drops, it give off light. Of course the next
>> question is again, Why?.
>
>As you just explained, the process has to do with electrons being
>excited from one energy level to another and dropping back.
>
>At one level there is more energy than at the other level.
>Since energy is neither created or destroyed, the change in energy
>level must be accounted for. What happens is that a photon (a unit
>of light) gets emitted or absorbed.
>
>When you see a flame you are seeing photons being emitted.
>
>--
>Dan Espen
So, in the case of burning wood, the energy being released is solar
>> iirc gain energy during the combustion. I think you should read about
>> quantum mechanics. Energy raises an electron to a high level and then
>> the level drops again, not gradually, but by one (or sometimes more?)
>> quanta iiuc, and when it drops, it give off light. Of course the next
>> question is again, Why?.
>
>As you just explained, the process has to do with electrons being
>excited from one energy level to another and dropping back.
>
>At one level there is more energy than at the other level.
>Since energy is neither created or destroyed, the change in energy
>level must be accounted for. What happens is that a photon (a unit
>of light) gets emitted or absorbed.
>
>When you see a flame you are seeing photons being emitted.
>
>--
>Dan Espen
energy from when the trees were growing. This means that trees or
anything else that grows and burns, is really a solar cell. We make
batteries for storing solar energy froim solar cells, but trees are also
batteries in a sort of way.
If I cut down a 50 year old tree and burn it, I'm getting solar heat
from 1962 to present, or when the tree died.
However, another question arises. If energy cant be destroyed, I'm
seeing light and feeling heat from my campfire. But where is the energy
actually going, where it lives on in another form? After all, the light
will soon be gone as well as the heat.....
Dan Espen
May 20, 2012, 10:56:37 AM5/20/12
to
The energy being released is due to the chemical reaction of
oxidation. It's true that the tree grew using photosynthesis
which is also a chemical reaction due to sunlight. So ultimately
the energy did come from the sun.
> However, another question arises. If energy cant be destroyed, I'm
> seeing light and feeling heat from my campfire. But where is the energy
> actually going, where it lives on in another form? After all, the light
> will soon be gone as well as the heat.....
so you don't notice it anymore.
Photons on the other hand, just keep going until they meet another atom
with electrons at a lower energy level that can absorb them.
If they don't do that...well, you can see stars billions of miles away.
Photons, once released, instantly start moving at the speed of light
and have no problem traveling immense distances.
All of this is explained in overwhelming detail at Wikipedia.
--
Dan Espen
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
May 20, 2012, 11:00:55 AM5/20/12
to
On Sun, 20 May 2012 00:00:02 -0500, tange...@toyotamail.com wrote:
>On Fri, 18 May 2012 22:46:04 -0400, Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net>
>wrote:
>
>>> IIRC the light is caused by excited electons (or molecules?) which
>>> iirc gain energy during the combustion. I think you should read about
>>> quantum mechanics. Energy raises an electron to a high level and then
>>> the level drops again, not gradually, but by one (or sometimes more?)
>>> quanta iiuc, and when it drops, it give off light. Of course the next
>>> question is again, Why?.
>>
>>As you just explained, the process has to do with electrons being
>>excited from one energy level to another and dropping back.
>>
>>At one level there is more energy than at the other level.
>>Since energy is neither created or destroyed, the change in energy
>>level must be accounted for. What happens is that a photon (a unit
>>of light) gets emitted or absorbed.
>>
>>When you see a flame you are seeing photons being emitted.
>>
>>--
>>Dan Espen
>
>So, in the case of burning wood, the energy being released is solar
>energy from when the trees were growing. This means that trees or
>anything else that grows and burns, is really a solar cell. We make
>batteries for storing solar energy froim solar cells, but trees are also
>batteries in a sort of way.
So are coal and oil, as the accepted theory goes, anyway.
>On Fri, 18 May 2012 22:46:04 -0400, Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net>
>wrote:
>
>>> IIRC the light is caused by excited electons (or molecules?) which
>>> iirc gain energy during the combustion. I think you should read about
>>> quantum mechanics. Energy raises an electron to a high level and then
>>> the level drops again, not gradually, but by one (or sometimes more?)
>>> quanta iiuc, and when it drops, it give off light. Of course the next
>>> question is again, Why?.
>>
>>As you just explained, the process has to do with electrons being
>>excited from one energy level to another and dropping back.
>>
>>At one level there is more energy than at the other level.
>>Since energy is neither created or destroyed, the change in energy
>>level must be accounted for. What happens is that a photon (a unit
>>of light) gets emitted or absorbed.
>>
>>When you see a flame you are seeing photons being emitted.
>>
>>--
>>Dan Espen
>
>So, in the case of burning wood, the energy being released is solar
>energy from when the trees were growing. This means that trees or
>anything else that grows and burns, is really a solar cell. We make
>batteries for storing solar energy froim solar cells, but trees are also
>batteries in a sort of way.
>If I cut down a 50 year old tree and burn it, I'm getting solar heat
>from 1962 to present, or when the tree died.
>However, another question arises. If energy cant be destroyed, I'm
>seeing light and feeling heat from my campfire. But where is the energy
>actually going, where it lives on in another form? After all, the light
>will soon be gone as well as the heat.....
matter into energy. Certainly you've heard of E=mc^2?
Han
May 20, 2012, 12:24:42 PM5/20/12
to
"k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in
news:6f1ir7tn60188mv3a...@4ax.com:
> Energy + matter cannot be destroyed. By burning wood, you're converting
> matter into energy. Certainly you've heard of E=mc^2?
Ummm, I was taught that burning is oxidation, such as C + O gives CO, CO2,
etc. In releasing carbon from the organic compounds in wood and combining
with oxygen no net mass changes are made. All of the wood matter plus the
oxygen weigh exactly the same as all of the combustion products combined.
The generation of new bonds between C, H, S, whatever and oxygen constitute
"exo-thermic" reactions, i.e. generating heat and thereby also light
photons of various wavelengths, visible and infrared, but nothing close to
Xrays or gammarays.
E=mc^2 refers to nuclear reactions where mass and energy are
interconverted, mostly matter into energy. This generates vastly greater
quantities of energy than mere burning.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
news:6f1ir7tn60188mv3a...@4ax.com:
> Energy + matter cannot be destroyed. By burning wood, you're converting
> matter into energy. Certainly you've heard of E=mc^2?
etc. In releasing carbon from the organic compounds in wood and combining
with oxygen no net mass changes are made. All of the wood matter plus the
oxygen weigh exactly the same as all of the combustion products combined.
The generation of new bonds between C, H, S, whatever and oxygen constitute
"exo-thermic" reactions, i.e. generating heat and thereby also light
photons of various wavelengths, visible and infrared, but nothing close to
Xrays or gammarays.
E=mc^2 refers to nuclear reactions where mass and energy are
interconverted, mostly matter into energy. This generates vastly greater
quantities of energy than mere burning.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
May 20, 2012, 12:45:21 PM5/20/12
to
On 20 May 2012 16:24:42 GMT, Han <nob...@nospam.not> wrote:
>"k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in
>news:6f1ir7tn60188mv3a...@4ax.com:
>
>> Energy + matter cannot be destroyed. By burning wood, you're converting
>> matter into energy. Certainly you've heard of E=mc^2?
>
>Ummm, I was taught that burning is oxidation, such as C + O gives CO, CO2,
>etc. In releasing carbon from the organic compounds in wood and combining
>with oxygen no net mass changes are made.
Wrong. Chemical bonds have mass. You've obviously not heard of E=mc^2?
>"k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in
>news:6f1ir7tn60188mv3a...@4ax.com:
>
>> Energy + matter cannot be destroyed. By burning wood, you're converting
>> matter into energy. Certainly you've heard of E=mc^2?
>
>Ummm, I was taught that burning is oxidation, such as C + O gives CO, CO2,
>etc. In releasing carbon from the organic compounds in wood and combining
>with oxygen no net mass changes are made.
>All of the wood matter plus the
>oxygen weigh exactly the same as all of the combustion products combined.
guessed it, E=mc^2.
>The generation of new bonds between C, H, S, whatever and oxygen constitute
>"exo-thermic" reactions, i.e. generating heat and thereby also light
>photons of various wavelengths, visible and infrared, but nothing close to
>Xrays or gammarays.
matter of magnitude. Give that you've never come across Einstein, I suppose
you haven't heard of Max Planck, either: E=h*nu (energy = constant *
wavelength)
>E=mc^2 refers to nuclear reactions where mass and energy are
>interconverted, mostly matter into energy. This generates vastly greater
>quantities of energy than mere burning.
I suggest you go back and study high school physics. E=mc^2 is not just a
good idea...
micky
May 20, 2012, 10:34:02 PM5/20/12
to
increasing."
Entropy is a measure of the disorganization of the system. Before
the fire, the energy and mass we're talking about was all located in
the wood. After the fire, the energy has one every which way, some
being absorbed by the things the light hits, some by the ground under
the fire, some by the air above the fire, and most of all that
continues to dispers. The mass, mostly carbon and other elements,
dispurses to a C02 and maybe some CO.
I guess the only thing that increases the orgianization of the earth
is the sun, but the sun is becoming disorganized as its energy goes
off in all driections.
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