Preheating water by running pipes through attic?
Percival P. Cassidy
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.
Does this have possibilities?
Perce
h...@uark.edu
I am inclined to think that you're pulling our leg, but here is my
answer anyway. You did not tell us where the house will be built. If
ever winter temp drops below freezing, the copper pipes will bust like
you have never seen, sort of like cutting butter with a knife. Get
the picture?
Nate Nagel
With creative use of tees and valves, this doesn't necessarily need to
be a problem. Just need to remember to drain down the "attic loop"
before the outside temp. gets near freezing.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
hal...@aol.com
just like the law preventing HOAs from stopping satellite dishes there
should be one allowing solar panels, to help the envirnment........
I wouldnt live in a HOA community because of such issues
Percival P. Cassidy
>> My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
>> home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
>> Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
>> appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
>> wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.
>>
>> Does this have possibilities?
> I am inclined to think that you're pulling our leg, but here is my
> answer anyway. You did not tell us where the house will be built. If
> ever winter temp drops below freezing, the copper pipes will bust like
> you have never seen, sort of like cutting butter with a knife. Get
> the picture?
No, I am not pulling your leg. This is what they told me they are
thinking of. And, yes, I should have said where: "Hotlanta" area.
And also I omitted to repeat in the body of the message the word I used
in the subject line: "preheating." They are not thinking they are going
to get water hot enough for washing dishes from such a system, but they
are hoping to use less gas to heat their water.
Perce
Steve Barker DLT
s
"Percival P. Cassidy" <nob...@notmyISP.net> wrote in message
news:TC4mk.8600$Bt6....@newsfe04.iad...
Steve Barker DLT
plan to save. Even if you had 200' of 1/2" pipe up there, you're only
talking about preheating 2 gallons of water. Now if you put a properly
supported 50 gallon tank up there..........
s
"Percival P. Cassidy" <nob...@notmyISP.net> wrote in message
news:Em5mk.8608$Bt6....@newsfe04.iad...
Rick-Meister
pipes. There's just not a lot there. However, it's not uncommon in
large buildings to install a "tempering tank" in the boiler room. It's
basically a large holding tank that allows water to reach boiler room
temperature BEFORE it hits the water heater. That way the water heater
only has to raise it from 70-80 degrees to 140.
I have a friend who uses old water heaters (the non-leaking ones) as
tempering tanks in all of his rental properties. He removes the
insulation and installs them in the boiler rooms. He figures whatever
heat they absorb is that much less heat he has to pay for.
I wouldn't recommend his method if they're putting it in an attic--at
least not an old tank.
Stormin Mormon
what to do. Abner! Oh, Abner!
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Percival P. Cassidy" <nob...@notmyISP.net> wrote in message
news:TC4mk.8600$Bt6....@newsfe04.iad...
Stormin Mormon
AC to preheat a tank of water. The attic seems possible, but who can tell?
Might be more trouble than it is worth.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Percival P. Cassidy" <nob...@notmyISP.net> wrote in message
news:TC4mk.8600$Bt6....@newsfe04.iad...
jim
<cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> A very creative HVAC tech may be able to use some of the heat from central
> AC to preheat a tank of water. The attic seems possible, but who can tell?
> Might be more trouble than it is worth.
>
> --
> Christopher A. Young
> Learn more about Jesus
> www.lds.org
> .
>
> My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
> home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
> Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
> appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
> wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.
>
> Does this have possibilities?
>
> Perce
Where my woodstove is a primary source of heat in my home I have the
copper line to my HW boiler coiled under the stove before going to the
boiler. Been preheating HW boiler water like this for years, and it
works.
hal...@aol.com
A newer home should have a well ventilated attic, building codes call
for attic no more than 15 degrees warmer than outside air temp.
It might not gain you as much as you believe..........
Our homes attic temperature used to be 140 with outside at 90 till we
replaced the roof with a lighter color shingle and added ridge vent.
its now about 110 with outside at 90.
I have a recording thermostat for work I put it up there for a few
days out of curosity while on vacation
Reed
How about a flat roof built like a shallow swimming pool, say 3
to 6" deep ?? Would that warm up enough ?? Would also catch the
rare Atlanta rain every now and then (BTW, catching rain like this
is illegal in some states, mostly Western, where "water laws"
prohibit such.)
Jordan
cause a lot of condensation on the pipes?
"Percival P. Cassidy" <nob...@notmyISP.net> wrote in message
news:Em5mk.8608$Bt6....@newsfe04.iad...
Edwin Pawlowski
"Percival P. Cassidy" <nob...@notmyISP.net> wrote in message
Running copper lines through the attic probably won't add much heat to the
water. Plastic pipe won['t transmit the heat as well making it hardly worth
the effort. That said, a holding tank may be a good idea. That way a 10 or
20 gallon supply of water can sit in the attic and absorb heat during the
day.
The best method though, is to build where there is no HOA to boss you around
so you can build a good solar system.
z
I saw an installation like that years ago in some magazine. they'd
built a whole grid of pipes to allow the water plenty of time to
capture the heat. although now that i think about it, maybe just a
large tank, maybe about the same size as the water heater, would be
enough, rather than a lot of pipe. uninsulated tank, of course.
assuming that most of the time there would be enough time for the
whole tank to get back to temp between uses. one thing's for sure,
though; need to check for leaks frequently.
btw, i've been monitoring my attic temp this summer, and it peaks out
at around 120; that's in connecticut, and with an attic fan. that's
quite a big chunk of the way up to 140 or whatever you keep the water
at.
dadiOH
If you listen to the caveats from others and use enough pipe, yes, it is
certainly possible. Cost effective is something else...
They'd need roughly 100' of 1/2" pipe to hold a gallon of water; however,
the pipe need not be in a straight run, it could be in a series of loops
like the cooling fins on a radiator.
It would be most effective if there were some sort of recirculating system
...a pump that activates when the resevoir temperature is "x" degrees below
ambient attic temperature.
Would it be worth it? Well, 2500 feet of refrigeration style 1/2" copper
tubing - enough for 25 gallons - would cost better than $6,000. If there
were a recirculating system they'd need a tank and pump but less tubing.
Would the cost to run the pump be less than the cost to just heat the water
in a tank? No idea but I kinda doubt it.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
hal...@aol.com
USE PEX, its cheap!
Stormin Mormon
water.
Bob
water like the rest of us. no driving all over the place. no money.
welcome to the planet.
CooperDBM
>
> I saw an installation like that years ago in some magazine. they'd
> built a whole grid of pipes to allow the water plenty of time to
> capture the heat. although now that i think about it, maybe just a
> large tank, maybe about the same size as the water heater, would be
> enough, rather than a lot of pipe. uninsulated tank, of course.
> assuming that most of the time there would be enough time for the
> whole tank to get back to temp between uses. one thing's for sure,
> though; need to check for leaks frequently.
>
Preheating tanks are very common in hot climates, particularly where
electricity isn't abundant. These tanks are usually painted a dark
color and exposed directly to the sun. Not sure how efficient they
would be at picking up the ambient attic temperature. If there is
enough space around the house the tank doesn't need to be on the roof
as long as it has good solar exposure. It can be screened from the
neighbors.
If it's a new house solar panels can be designed into the roof without
looking like they're tacked on. They could probably be hidden from
street level. Given everyone's, hopefully, increasing environmental
awareness this shouldn't be a big issue. If not it's worth at least a
bit of a fight.
Chuck
Have they considered placing pipe under a black asphalt driveway. My driveway
gets so hot you can't touch it. No one will know it's there so HOA should have
no problem. I don't know if it would work under a concrete drive.
HeyBub
Heh!
Use the entire attic as a giant collector for solar water heating?
You could get by with a 3x4 box-like thingy.
Bill
I've placed a remote thermometer in my attic and it gets to be 125 degrees
on a day when it is in the 80's outside.
I am going to run say 2" CPVC back and forth in the attic the entire length
of the house. With larger pipe, the water will flow more slowly and have a
longer period to heat-up.
Then I am going to get a solar water heater circulation pump, controller,
and electric solar panel to power it. This will circulate the water into my
hot water heater, but it will sense the temperature of the water from the
attic as well as in the tank and only circulate the water when the attic
water is warmer.
The reason I am using CPVC is I will have to drain the pipes before the 1st
freeze and I don' want any rust. So plastic.
Also I will need to run the pipes so all the water can drain out. And I will
need to install an air escape to get the air out when filling the pipes in
the spring.
So basically the pipes will run back and forth attached to the underside of
the rafters and going higher and higher with a gentle slope (for draining).
Then air release pipe at the top.
And valves for all this to by-pass in winter, drain, and let air escape.
Also CPVC will expand with heat, so need plastic fasteners which allow the
pipe to move back and forth.
Water heater tanks hold heat for a long time. So I am predicting that this
will provide all the hot water I will need. I will basically turn off my hot
water heater and will be able to turn it on only as needed. FYI - I've
noticed that I am happy with shower water being about 102 degrees.
jme...@columbus.rr.com
I would suggest that you will need a tempering tank up there, and
for that I would suggest you may also require some structural re-
enforcement to make it safe. Only the water in the attic would be
heated and it would need to sit in the pipes for some time to actually
warm up. Even then you would not be absorbing much heat.
Frankly I doubt if it would be worth the bother, cost and risks
involved, even assuming there would be some reduction to the amount of
heat going into the home in the summer reducing the cooling expense.
How about ground thermal? Do they have that option?
ransley
> My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
> home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
> Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
> appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
> wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.
>
> Does this have possibilities?
>
> Perce
If they were putting in as many energy saving things as they could
they wouldnt need the utility co, it would be solar.
Steve Barker DLT
s
"Bill" <billnoma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6ftqe0F...@mid.individual.net...
z
> > My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a
> > custom home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as
> > possible. Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about
> > exterior appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but
> > they were wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof
> > space.
> > Does this have possibilities?
>
> If you listen to the caveats from others and use enough pipe, yes, it is
> certainly possible. Cost effective is something else...
>
> They'd need roughly 100' of 1/2" pipe to hold a gallon of water; however,
> the pipe need not be in a straight run, it could be in a series of loops
> like the cooling fins on a radiator.
>
> It would be most effective if there were some sort of recirculating system
> ...a pump that activates when the resevoir temperature is "x" degrees below
> ambient attic temperature.
>
> Would it be worth it? Well, 2500 feet of refrigeration style 1/2" copper
> tubing - enough for 25 gallons - would cost better than $6,000. If there
> were a recirculating system they'd need a tank and pump but less tubing.
> Would the cost to run the pump be less than the cost to just heat the water
> in a tank? No idea but I kinda doubt it.
ok, here's my idea; a recycled kiddy wading pool in the attic, fed
from the water piping by an old toilet float valve, feeding the hot
water tank by gravity feed. maybe cover it with styrofoam peanuts to
reduce evaporation. all scavenged for free.
terry
> My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
> home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
> Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
> appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
> wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.
>
> Does this have possibilities?
>
What is the reference to HOA rules?
Do you mean in this day and age with energy prices rising, oil at over
$100 per barrel, gasoline at at $3 to $5 US per gallon, water
shortages (which will influence the costs of hydro generated
electricity etc.) and other problems there is a rule which says 'Don't
use solar panels' ???????
Make about as much sense as using cedar shingles or thatching on a
roof in fire prone California, doesn't it?
Been raining for several days here; so reluctantly drying clothes in
the dryer, instead of hanging them out on the line. Gather even that
is not allowed in some places!
BTW was reading recently about some ergonomically designed homes in
Germany that while they are connected to the electricity grid to meet
peak moments of demand are, on average, making and returning more
electricity to the grid than they use! This helps defray the cost of
solar panels and the equipment to convert the electrcity thus produced
to 'mains type' electrical current.
Those homes (Freyburg I think was mentioned) are in area where the
government has legislated that electric utilities 'must' receive back
and pay the householder for electric energy returned or fed into the
grid. Way to go, eh? A negative power bill! With the electric meter
running backwards!
My grown up son has been looking at building a smaller home, people
get married much later and have much smaller families now. We feel by
hanging onto enough land we can use a ground loop heat pump system. If
we could generate in this 'not very sunny' climate some of the
electricity to run the heat pump system that would be great as well!
Hoping the cost of solar panels which on our existing roof would be
just about invisible from the road will come down greatly. Guess they
wouldn't work well with some inches of snow on them though!
Reno
Sure, they could get lots of heat from the attic. Around here hot water
heating costs about $200 a year for a big house and they may save half
that. Done at the time of construction the system additions might cost
from $1000 to $1500 so the payback is more than 10 years, maybe 20
years. Not great but not bad and it is a green approach.
Use polyethylene (PE) tubing which can stand being frozen without
bursting in case they get one of those every 10 year cold days. Never
have to drain it. PE pipe is very leakproof IF it is heat welded so it
must be installed by someone who knows how to do it properly. There are
mechanical fastners for PE but it is a very slippery material compared
to other plumbing pipe and mechanical connections should not be trusted
for this application. If all joints are professionally heat welded and
pass a pressure test then it is better than any other system.
Use about 100 feet of 1/2 inch or 3/4 inch tubing. Have it air pressure
tested before turning on the water - standard plumbing practice.
Insulate all the hot water system lines that are not in the attic, even
the ones not in the circulating loop. Pipe insulation should be minimum
1/2 inch - thicker adds a bit of benefit but not much so only get it if
it is readily available. Don't insulate the attic pipes since they are
supposed to transfer energy as efficiently as possible. Make the runs as
long as possible with a minimum of bends.
Use a Grundfos UP-10 circulating pump like I have in my house for
circulating the hot water. It is a 25 watt pump with a thermostat and a
timer - maybe $2/month to run. Dead quiet. You set the thermostat to
shut off if the returning water reaches a certain temperature to prevent
running while the water heater is heating and also prevent over-heating.
Maybe set the timer to only run during the day so you aren't cooling off
the water at night. Summer temps may be such that there would be
benefits to running at night - bound to be warmer in the attic than in
the ground. Timer is simple to set.
This pump, and most circulating pumps, won't make enough pressure to
lift water from a basement to a roof. It doesn't have to since you
install it inline with the house pressure system. It pumps from the
storage tank and back into the storage tank. So it only adds enough
energy to this loop to make it flow in a circle. It can be located
anywhere as long as it draws from the bottom of the tank and returns to
the top of the tank. Bottom connection will likely need a special
fitting so it can function as both a drain and a loop connection. Mine
has a tee with a tap at the bottom. There has to be a valve at the top
of the loop to allow air out while the loop is filled. You open this
valve while filling the house hot water system for the first time. The
house pressure will flow up both sides of the loop and purge the air.
Run a hose from this valve to a drain so it can be opened and water run
out for a good long while to ensure all air is purged. Don't use any
check valves in the loop - run out from and back into the storage tank
so no check valves needed. Use only a high quality bronze valve -
plastic won't do. Special adaptors are required to install a valve in a
PE system.
Must add a storage tank before the main tank, without electrodes. Only
the storage tank should be in the circulating system loop to the attic.
The main tank has a permanent hot water layer near the top which would
defeat the idea because this water would get cooled not heated. Storage
tank also increases the amount of hot water kept on hand.
Cold water in the attic would create a condensation problem with water
dripping off the pipes before it gets heated and perhaps on cool days or
at night. Plastic half-pipe drainage system would solve this. A solvent
glued PVC collector system would not leak. Drain pipes must be at least
an inch below the PE pipes - can't be touching or condensation occurs on
the outside of that pipe and defeats the purpose. Use spacers to hold
the circulating pipe about an inch or two above the drain pipe. Slope
all the drain pipes so they drain towards an exit point - just make one
end of the lengthwise runs lower than the other by 6 to 12 inches. Make
sure the valve is within the drain pipe so any slow leakage would just
drain away.
Inspect the loop every few months so any leakage is spotted before it
becomes serious. With a proper installation it should be
Phulltillt via HomeKB.com
>My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
>home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
>
They should consider on demand, at the place of need, tankLESS water heaters.
A bit pricey at purchase but quickly pay for themselves with the savings in
water and energy. There is no need to keep 30 or more gallons of water hot
all the time or run the water until it's warm at the faucet.
--
909090...J
Message posted via HomeKB.com
http://www.homekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/repair/200808/1
hal...@aol.com
might consider PEX with basically no joints, little chance for leaks,
easy to install, just spool out.
add disconnect so you can blow compressed air thru lines each winter
before freezing, no sloping of lines necessary, plus PEX is basically
freeze proof.
hal...@aol.com
remember theres lots of downsides to tankless. just look at other
threads on that subject.
Steve Barker DLT
s
"Phulltillt via HomeKB.com" <u24330@uwe> wrote in message
news:88480b9c55c87@uwe...
Steve Barker DLT
s
<hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:456db4d8-6b6e-4b27...@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
hal...@aol.com
<railphoto...@always.hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hell, really for the application, it could be left coiled up.
>
yep way less work, no joints to leak, and check home depot, PEX is
dirt cheap
Edwin Pawlowski
<hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> Would it be worth it? ?Well, 2500 feet of refrigeration style 1/2" copper
> tubing - enough for 25 gallons - would cost better than $6,000.
> ____________________________
>
USE PEX, its cheap!
Cheap, but has poor heat transfer properties compared to copper.
metspitzer
<hal...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Aug 6, 6:50?pm, "Steve Barker DLT"
I don't know if I would want all that water in my attic.
Percival P. Cassidy
>>> Hell, really for the application, it could be left coiled up.
>> yep way less work, no joints to leak, and check home depot, PEX is
>> dirt cheap
> I don't know if I would want all that water in my attic.
I don't know whether design/construction practices in UK have changed
over the decades, but the houses there with which I was familiar all had
storage tanks -- insulated to some degree -- in the attic. The only
"tap" ("faucet" to LeftPondians) fed directly from the incoming water
supply was one over the kitchen sink for drinking water. The storage
tank fed the other cold-water faucets and the water heater. Open top --
or maybe with a loose cover -- and a float valve. I'm guessing that they
held 40 gallons or so -- real gallons, not the four-fifths-sized US ones.
Perce
tra...@optonline.net
<railphoto...@always.hotmail.com> wrote:
> Not unless you like it hot. PHUCCK a bunch of tankle$$ junk.
>
> s
>
> There is no need to keep 30 or more gallons of water hot
>
>
>
> > all the time or run the water until it's warm at the faucet.
This is a good example of the false benefits generally attributed to
the miracle tankless. Unless you have multiple tankless close to
every point of use, which greatly increases the cost and complexity,
you actually have a LONGER wait for hot water with a single whole
house tankless. The water still comes from the same place and you
have the slight additional delay for the tankless to sense the water
usage and fire up.
>
> > --
> > 909090...J
>
> > Message posted via HomeKB.com
> >http://www.homekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/repair/200808/1- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Blattus Slafaly
> My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
> home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
>
> Does this have possibilities?
>
> Perce
You're better off with point of use electric demand water heaters. They
are only$150 and only run when you actually use the hot water. One under
the kitchen sink and one under the bathroom sink and shower. Will work
fine in the shower if you are not a water hog and use super saver shower
head with reduction valve. Not recommended for tub or spa bathers or
other water wasting devices. As far as preheating you can put a large
cold water holding tank in your furnace room or in a closet in the
living area. That will keep your water at room temperature.
--
Blattus Slafaly ? 3 :) 7/8
hal...@aol.com
wrote:
those 150 b uck point of use with a shower? you must be joking, at
most hand washing.
J. Clarke
Most of which consist of you saying "does so" and everybody else
saying "you're full of it".
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>"Percival P. Cassidy" <nob...@notmyISP.net> wrote:
>> My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
>> home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
>> Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
>> appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
>> wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.
I'd put a $35 used car radiator with its 12 V fans under the ridge and
make the south roof transparent. It seems to me there's a federal law
that prohibits HOAs from outlawing this form of renewable energy.
>> Does this have possibilities?
You might get 5 Btu/h-F per $2 foot of fin-tube, vs 1000 for a car radiator,
which might also circulate some warm attic air through the house on a winter
day, with a couple of motorized dampers.
>A newer home should have a well ventilated attic, building codes call
>for attic no more than 15 degrees warmer than outside air temp.
Which code? Section R806.2 (Roof Ventilation--minimum area) of the 2006
International Residential Code (used in PA, NJ, and lots of other states)
says an attic can have 1/300 of its floor area as ventilation if upper
vents have 80% of that and vents at least 3' below them have 20%. So my
24'x32' attic might have a total vent area of 24x32/300 = 2.56 ft^2 with
0.512 ft^2 of low vents.
In full sun on a still day the roof might absorb about 24x32x250 = 19.2K
Btu/h of sun and lose heat to outdoor air with a 24x32xU.5 = 384 Btu/h-F
thermal conductance, with an equivalent circuit like this, viewed in
a fixed font:
T
1/384 | ---
------www-------|-->|---|
| ---
| 125 F I
---
-
|
|
-
One empirical chimney formula says I = 16.6Asqrt(H)T^1.5. A = 0.512 ft^2
and H = 3' make I = 14.72T^1.5, which makes T = 0.0383(3261-T^1.5).
T = 91 F on the right makes T = 91.7 on the left. Repeating makes
T = 91.3, so the air in an IRC-code attic could be 91 degrees
warmer than outdoor air.
Nick
sno
green roof) on any kind of clear day could get a 20 degree rise in
house above outside.....on a bright day could easily get 90 degree
inside no matter what outside temp...had a differential thermostat
that turned on box fan when attic temp rose above inside temp...
usually turned on around 0900 and turned off around 1800....and
could usually coast all night with morning temp in low 60's....
hope helps...have fun....sno
hope helps...have fun.....sno
JIMMIE
> nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Attic air can be full of all kinds of nasties. Lots of dust, insect
and animal excrement....
Jimmie
sno
Jim...you are right...every year when I first turned fan on dust and
other things blew all over.....wife complained like crazy....if did it
again would use fan with filter....
have fun....sno
Chuck
Why don't you bury the pipes in the driveway? I did this in Florida and had very
hot water all the time. I had a black asphalt driveway and before they installed
it, I buried copper pipe in the sand. After the asphalt was put down and cured,
I found that I had plenty of very hot water. Since the water heater tank was
just inside the garage, it was easy to get the water back into the tank.
News
"Chuck" <cbac...@attt.net> wrote in message
news:6tqnk.298889$SV4....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
I hope the copper pipe was protected. Plastic pipe would be better, all in
one large coil.
HeyBub
> JIMMIE wrote:
>
> Why don't you bury the pipes in the driveway? I did this in Florida
> and had very hot water all the time. I had a black asphalt driveway
> and before they installed it, I buried copper pipe in the sand. After
> the asphalt was put down and cured, I found that I had plenty of very
> hot water. Since the water heater tank was just inside the garage, it
> was easy to get the water back into the tank.
Heh! That's a great idea. Sort of a poor man's geothermal power station.
aemeijers
wouldn't make it through one winter. PEX, maybe. And you'd have to fill
with antifreeze and use a heat exchanger setup, to keep them from
freezing solid, unless you put them so deep that it was residual ground
heat you were sucking instead of solar.
When I lived in southern Indiana, with abandoned water-filled limestone
quarries all over the place, I had a dream of buying one, and dropping a
heat exchanger on the bottom to get free cooling for a/c. Of course, I
was a broke student at the time, so it stayed in the dream stage.
--
aem sends...
--
aem sends...
Heathcliff
That reminds me of a funny story I guy once told me. He had lived for
a while in a trailer park in southern Arizona. The service lines to
the trailers were only buried about 6 inches deep, in ground that
baked in the sun all day, so the water supply that came into the
trailer was HOT. This was a problem in that you could not take a
shower without getting scalded -- no cold water to blend in with the
hot. Finally his neighbors clued him in -- the solution was to turn
off your water heater. Then the water in it would cool down to your
air-conditioned indoor temperature and be your cold water supply. -- H
daestrom
> hal...@aol.com <hal...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> "Percival P. Cassidy" <nob...@notmyISP.net> wrote:
>
>>> My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a
>>> custom home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as
>>> possible. Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about
>>> exterior appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but
>>> they were wondering about simply running water pipes through the
>>> roof space.
>
> I'd put a $35 used car radiator with its 12 V fans under the ridge and
> make the south roof transparent. It seems to me there's a federal law
> that prohibits HOAs from outlawing this form of renewable energy.
>
When I read the subject I had to laugh. No one around here would
contemplate the idea. Something about sub-zero temperatures for a couple of
month a year...
But I suppose if freezing is never a concern (even Florida gets an
occasional frost), then go for it.
daestrom
Robert Scott
to continue to have poor attic ventilation, or even to make your attic
ventilation worse in order to raise the efficiency of the water heating system.
That is like a government basing its budget on having a tax on prostitution.
Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>> I'd put a $35 used car radiator with its 12 V fans under the ridge and
>> make the south roof transparent...
>
>When I read the subject I had to laugh. No one around here would
>contemplate the idea...
You might try a few numbers for a draindown system like this
in your neck of the woods...
Nick
Steve O'Hara-Smith
---@---.--- (Robert Scott) wrote:
> There is something disturbing about making something that gives you an
> incentive to continue to have poor attic ventilation, or even to make
> your attic ventilation worse in order to raise the efficiency of the
> water heating system.
Why ? What's so good about ventilating an attic rather than
using it as a heat trap.
> That is like a government basing its budget on
> having a tax on prostitution.
Everywhere prostitution is legal it is taxed just like any other
income. I don't think it's a substantial part of any governments income
though.
--
C:>WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
| http://www.sohara.org/
Robert Scott
wrote:
> Why ? What's so good about ventilating an attic rather than
>using it as a heat trap.
>
It encourages the formation of ice dams in the winter, which causes snow melt to
back up under the shingles and leak into the decking, which rots the decking and
rafters, leading to premature roof failure.
Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan
J. Clarke
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:51:02 GMT
> ---@---.--- (Robert Scott) wrote:
>
>> There is something disturbing about making something that gives you
>> an incentive to continue to have poor attic ventilation, or even to
>> make your attic ventilation worse in order to raise the efficiency
>> of the water heating system.
>
> Why ? What's so good about ventilating an attic rather than
> using it as a heat trap.
Well, for one thing heat is the enemy of shingles--if you don't have
proper ventilation and are in a hot climate they'll very likely fail
prematurely.
Then there's elimination of moisture--without adequate ventilation you
can get enough moisture buildup in the attic to result in mold on the
structure, and where there is mold there is shortly after rot.
Then there are ice dams in winter.
There's a reason that every new roof that goes on in most of the US
has a ridge vent, and the reason is not that it looks snarfy or makes
big profits for the roofer.
>> That is like a government basing its budget on
>> having a tax on prostitution.
>
> Everywhere prostitution is legal it is taxed just like any other
> income. I don't think it's a substantial part of any governments
> income though.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
"J. Clarke" <jclarke...@cox.net> wrote:
> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:
> > On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:51:02 GMT
> > ---@---.--- (Robert Scott) wrote:
> >
> >> There is something disturbing about making something that gives you
> >> an incentive to continue to have poor attic ventilation, or even to
> >> make your attic ventilation worse in order to raise the efficiency
> >> of the water heating system.
> >
> > Why ? What's so good about ventilating an attic rather than
> > using it as a heat trap.
>
> Well, for one thing heat is the enemy of shingles--if you don't have
> proper ventilation and are in a hot climate they'll very likely fail
> prematurely.
Hmm good point - I'm too used to slate.
> Then there's elimination of moisture--without adequate ventilation you
> can get enough moisture buildup in the attic to result in mold on the
> structure, and where there is mold there is shortly after rot.
Not seen that happen in unventilated lofts but it makes sense.
> Then there are ice dams in winter.
Also too used to mild winters where below freezing is rare.
Robert Scott
wrote:
>> Then there are ice dams in winter.
>
> Also too used to mild winters where below freezing is rare.
OK, for people in your type of climate, the reason against using the attic to
pre-heat domestic water is to limit air-conditioning costs. The money you save
on hot water by using the attic to pre-heat it is more than cancelled out by the
extra money you spend on AC, as compared to what you could have saved by
passively venting your attic.
Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan
Steve O'Hara-Smith
---@---.--- (Robert Scott) wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 08:54:03 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith <ste...@eircom.net>
> wrote:
>
> >> Then there are ice dams in winter.
> >
> > Also too used to mild winters where below freezing is rare.
>
> OK, for people in your type of climate, the reason against using the
> attic to pre-heat domestic water is to limit air-conditioning costs. The
It might be if air conditioning were common here - which it isn't.
Round here the temperature gets below 0 C or above 25 C maybe two or three
times a year - almost a perfect climate, apart from the rain.
> money you save on hot water by using the attic to pre-heat it is more
> than cancelled out by the extra money you spend on AC, as compared to
> what you could have saved by passively venting your attic.
What we do in these parts usually is put insulation in the loft so
as to thermally isolate it from the house. In summer it gets hot up there
and in winter it gets cold (range perhaps 5-40 C).
It does strike me that it may well be reasonable to use the loft as
a solar collector here.
RVer Don
Mustang Ranch a few years ago.
Don
Robert Scott
wrote:
> It does strike me that it may well be reasonable to use the loft as
>a solar collector here.
Where is "here" exactly?
OK, so if ice dams and air conditioning costs are not an issue with you, then
look at the cost/benefit ratio. You can't run potable water directly through an
automotive radiator, so you are probably stuck with a large number of home
heating-type fin tubes. Without active air circulation, they are going to be
very inefficient, so you will need lots and lots of them just to erase maybe 1/4
of your domestic water heating bill. What do you pay now for water heating?
$15 a month? So you might save $4 a month with your inside attic collector. If
the fin tubes plus installation cost you $1000, then you will just break even
after 20 years.
On the other hand, if you installed a real solar collector outside the roof, a
much smaller unit could deliver more heat, and it could deliver that heat
year-round, instead of just in the summer, as with your in-attic collector.
Most of the heat the falls on your roof gets conducted away by the wind. What
remains has to travel through the insulating properties of the wood sheathing.
Then it has to transfer to air without the benefit of active circulation, then
it has to transfer again into your "collector". A collector on the roof
prevents much of the wind-conducted losses and avoids two air-to-solid heat
transfers. About the only benefit to the inside collector, as was pointed out
by earlier posters in this thread, would be to disguise the collector for
appearance sake.
Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan
J. Clarke
> It was in Storey County, Nevada until the feds shut down Joe
> Conforte's Mustang Ranch a few years ago.
It still is in Storey County, Nevada. In fact the branch of the Feds
that shut it down was the IRS and the charge was tax evasion and the
IRS continued to run it for a while. There was even a "60 minutes"
story on it while it was being run by the IRS (I suspect that the
embarrassment of finding that the US government was running a bordello
had something to do with its being shut down).
And Mustang Ranch is back in operation under new ownership--the land
it was on belongs to the Bureau of Land Management now so the new
owners moved the buildings about 5 miles down the road.
>> Everywhere prostitution is legal it is taxed just like any other
>> income. I don't think it's a substantial part of any governments
>> income though.
>>
>> --
>> C:>WIN | Directable Mirror
>> Arrays The computer obeys and wins. | A better way
>> to
>> focus the sun
>> You lose and Bill collects. | licences available
>> see |
>> http://www.sohara.org/
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
---@---.--- (Robert Scott) wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 21:16:54 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith <ste...@eircom.net>
> wrote:
>
> > It does strike me that it may well be reasonable to use the loft
> > as
> >a solar collector here.
>
> Where is "here" exactly?
Western Ireland.
> OK, so if ice dams and air conditioning costs are not an issue with you,
> then look at the cost/benefit ratio. You can't run potable water
> directly through an automotive radiator, so you are probably stuck with a
> large number of home heating-type fin tubes.
Or a heat exchanger between water running through a car radiator
and potable water, perhaps a second coil in the tank.
> On the other hand, if you installed a real solar collector outside the
> roof, a much smaller unit could deliver more heat, and it could deliver
> that heat year-round, instead of just in the summer, as with your
> in-attic collector.
I was wondering about cheaply glazing the roof.
> Most of the heat the falls on your roof gets
> conducted away by the wind. What remains has to travel through the
> insulating properties of the wood sheathing.
What wood sheathing ? Roofs round here are tiles on felt on wood
frame.
> Then it has to transfer to
> air without the benefit of active circulation, then it has to transfer
> again into your "collector". A collector on the roof prevents much of
> the wind-conducted losses and avoids two air-to-solid heat transfers.
> About the only benefit to the inside collector, as was pointed out by
> earlier posters in this thread, would be to disguise the collector for
> appearance sake.
It may well not work out as feasible - but it's an interesting
possibility to explore a bit.
Bob F
which could cause all sorts of damage.
Ron
> One issue, if you live in high humidity areas is that you may get condensation
> which could cause all sorts of damage.
I live in Fl. I had my home replumbed a few yrs ago and the pipes are
in the attic. They wrapped the "cold" water pipe with foam rubber in
case of condensation.
I have to wait FOREVER to get cold water to flow, because the water
sitting in that "cold" water plastic pipe (I assume it's PEX) even
with the foam wrapped around it heats up and gets VERY hot.
I would NEVER purposely plumb a home like that. Hell, I can't even
wash clothes with cold water!
LouB
to 80 in the summer.
Lou
PETRA
If do you have any problem which is related to home renovation so think
happy without any stress because there are many relatives home constructors
and builders who is provide a good service
you should contact them.
Thanks
Robert Scott
>I live in Fl. I had my home replumbed a few yrs ago and the pipes are
>in the attic. They wrapped the "cold" water pipe with foam rubber in
>case of condensation.
>
>I have to wait FOREVER to get cold water to flow, because the water
>sitting in that "cold" water plastic pipe (I assume it's PEX) even
>with the foam wrapped around it heats up and gets VERY hot.
No matter how much insulation is wrapped around a pipe, if the water sits long
enough it will acquire the same temperature as the attic air around it.
The purpose of the insulation was not to keep the water cold so that it would be
cold when you use it. It was, as you said, to protect against condensation
dripping from the pipes and ruining your ceiling.
Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan
Ron
That's what I said.