Adding extra ground/neutral buss bar in electrical panel or add sub-panel?

[Mikepier]

I am re-wiring a friends basement and he has a Westinghouse 150A panel
with 30 breakers. I ran out of terminals on the ground/neutral bars,
even after doubling up on some ground wires of new circuits I ran. So
I purchased a grounding buss bar from Home Depot. My question is that
the existing mounting holes on this buss bar do not line up with the
pre-drilled holes in the panel, so I need to make at least one new
one. Since the panel is directly behind plywood, is it possible to
just use a large self-tapping screw and screw through the bussbar,
through the panel, and through the pywood? The other mounting hole I
would use the threaded screw. Also I assume I need to use at least a
#6 wire to link the new buss bar with the existing buss bar.

That would take car of the basement for now, but looking down the road
if other circuits needed to be added for another reno, is it possible
to add a sub-panel to the main panel? I thought about changing out the
panel to a 200 amp, but I don't think it is necessary, this is a house
that uses and gas stove/dryer/water heater. Plus the fact the outside
meter pan would need to be changed. The existing panel is maybe 20-25
years old, I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A.

[bud--]

On 3/25/2013 6:37 AM, Mikepier wrote:
> I am re-wiring a friends basement and he has a Westinghouse 150A panel
> with 30 breakers. I ran out of terminals on the ground/neutral bars,
> even after doubling up on some ground wires of new circuits I ran. So
> I purchased a grounding buss bar from Home Depot. My question is that
> the existing mounting holes on this buss bar do not line up with the
> pre-drilled holes in the panel, so I need to make at least one new
> one. Since the panel is directly behind plywood, is it possible to
> just use a large self-tapping screw and screw through the bussbar,
> through the panel, and through the pywood? The other mounting hole I
> would use the threaded screw. Also I assume I need to use at least a
> #6 wire to link the new buss bar with the existing buss bar.

The proper way to do it is to use a ground bar that was tested for use
in the panel and will fit the hole pattern. That ground bar is
identified on the label for the panel.

(Only ground wires can be attached to the new ground bar.)

>
> That would take car of the basement for now, but looking down the road
> if other circuits needed to be added for another reno, is it possible
> to add a sub-panel to the main panel?

Sure.

> I thought about changing out the
> panel to a 200 amp, but I don't think it is necessary, this is a house
> that uses and gas stove/dryer/water heater. Plus the fact the outside
> meter pan would need to be changed. The existing panel is maybe 20-25
> years old, I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A.

Maybe because there is a gas stove/dryer/water heater.

[Mikepier]

Why can only gnd wires be put on the new buss bar and not the neutrals?

[bob haller]

On Mar 25, 10:30 am, Mikepier <mikep...@optonline.net> wrote:
> Why can only gnd wires be put on the new buss bar and not the neutrals?

I added a bar and put both grounds and neutrals, it passed middle
group inspection and I too used a screw on one end into the plywood...

on the panel itself when home resale time comes you will regret having
a sub panel and pieced together main service.

the 150 amp panel may be connected to a 200 amp meter can and service
drop.......

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Mar 25, 10:36 am, bob haller <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Mar 25, 10:30 am, Mikepier <mikep...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > Why can only gnd wires be put on the new buss bar and not the neutrals?
>
> I added a bar and put both grounds and neutrals, it passed middle
> group inspection and I too used a screw on one end into the plywood...
>
> on the panel itself when home resale time comes you will regret having
> a sub panel and pieced together main service.

Why would that be? As long as it's done to code, nothing
I know of that's wrong with a subpanel. And the house has
gas for dryer, stove, HW, so 150 amps doesn't seem low.
However, if the current panel requires adding bus bars, maybe
it's time to just add the new subpanel now.

>
> the 150 amp panel may be connected to a 200 amp meter can and service
> drop.......

Could be and worth checking. But unless the house really
needs 200, it still seems easier adding a subpanel instead of
ripping out the whole existing one.

[bob haller]

On Mar 25, 11:34 am, gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 07:30:16 -0700 (PDT), Mikepier

>
> <mikep...@optonline.net> wrote:
> >Why can only gnd wires be put on the new buss bar and not the neutrals?
>

> The bus bar you are adding is using the enclosure as a current path.
> OK for grounding but not for a circuit current path.
>
> As long as the screw you use is threaded into the metal it is OK but
> it has to be a thread forming machine screw, not a sheet metal screw.
> You should be using the bus bar intended for your panel.

When I added a bus bar I ran the heaviest copper wire that would fit
the new bus bar between the old and new one, Sure the bus bar was
screwed directly to the panel but the direct connection was the heavy
copper wire. And the middle group inspector said I did a good job:)

[bob haller]

> > on the panel itself when home resale time comes you will regret having
> > a sub panel and pieced together main service.
>
> Why would that be?  As long as it's done to code, nothing
> I know of that's wrong with a subpanel.  And the house has
> gas for dryer, stove, HW, so 150 amps doesn't seem low.
> However, if the current panel requires adding bus bars, maybe
> it's time to just add the new subpanel now.
>
>
>
> > the 150 amp panel may be connected to a 200 amp meter can and service
> > drop.......
>
> Could be and worth checking.  But unless the house really
> needs 200, it still seems easier adding a subpanel instead of
> ripping out the whole existing one.

home buyers look at sub panels as a quick patch fix, and may try to
demand the cost of a upgrade off the sales price.

in any case it just adds more hassle at sale time:( you will regret
it......

Like replacng just some shingles, buyer will demand a new roof....

The cost difference between a sub panel and a main panel isnt a lot,
and the main is already 25 years old, thats what the OP said

[Mikepier]

On Mar 25, 11:34 am, gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 07:30:16 -0700 (PDT), Mikepier
>
> <mikep...@optonline.net> wrote:

> >Why can only gnd wires be put on the new buss bar and not the neutrals?
>

> The bus bar you are adding is using the enclosure as a current path.
> OK for grounding but not for a circuit current path.
>
> As long as the screw you use is threaded into the metal it is OK but
> it has to be a thread forming machine screw, not a sheet metal screw.
> You should be using the bus bar intended for your panel.

The existing buss bars have both the grounds and neutrals going into
it now, so I'm a little confused. As long as I install the new buss
bar to the enclosure and bond it to the existing one with #6 wire, why
can't the neutrals be connected to it?

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 09:18:33 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hal...@aol.com>
wrote:

>
>> > on the panel itself when home resale time comes you will regret having
>> > a sub panel and pieced together main service.
>>
>> Why would that be? �As long as it's done to code, nothing
>> I know of that's wrong with a subpanel. �And the house has
>> gas for dryer, stove, HW, so 150 amps doesn't seem low.
>> However, if the current panel requires adding bus bars, maybe
>> it's time to just add the new subpanel now.
>>
>>
>>
>> > the 150 amp panel may be connected to a 200 amp meter can and service
>> > drop.......
>>
>> Could be and worth checking. �But unless the house really
>> needs 200, it still seems easier adding a subpanel instead of
>> ripping out the whole existing one.
>
>home buyers look at sub panels as a quick patch fix, and may try to
>demand the cost of a upgrade off the sales price.

Tell them "NO". I've never had a buyer care about a sub panel,
though. If their inspection report didn't make it an issue, they
didn't either.

>in any case it just adds more hassle at sale time:( you will regret
>it......

If you're a wus, perhaps.

>Like replacng just some shingles, buyer will demand a new roof....
>
>The cost difference between a sub panel and a main panel isnt a lot,
>and the main is already 25 years old, thats what the OP said

It's grief that isn't needed.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Mar 25, 7:25 pm, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 09:18:33 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hall...@aol.com>

> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> > on the panel itself when home resale time comes you will regret having
> >> > a sub panel and pieced together main service.
>
> >> Why would that be?  As long as it's done to code, nothing
> >> I know of that's wrong with a subpanel.  And the house has
> >> gas for dryer, stove, HW, so 150 amps doesn't seem low.
> >> However, if the current panel requires adding bus bars, maybe
> >> it's time to just add the new subpanel now.
>
> >> > the 150 amp panel may be connected to a 200 amp meter can and service
> >> > drop.......
>
> >> Could be and worth checking.  But unless the house really
> >> needs 200, it still seems easier adding a subpanel instead of
> >> ripping out the whole existing one.
>
> >home buyers look at sub panels as a quick patch fix, and may try to
> >demand the cost of a upgrade off the sales price.
>
> Tell them "NO".  I've never had a buyer care about a sub panel,
> though.  If their inspection report didn't make it an issue, they
> didn't either.

In the typical contract, it would have to be an inspection
report issue. If the inspector doesn't raise an issue with
it, the buyer can't just say I want a new panel instead of
the sub-panel that is there. The contract says they've
agreed to buy the house, subject to any items that are
identified by the home inspector.

>
> >in any case it just adds more hassle at sale time:( you will regret
> >it......
>
> If you're a wus, perhaps.

But the other problem is if they bring anything up like
that, just telling them no, doesn't
necessarily work either. If you need to sell the house,
and you have a reasonable offer, you don't want to lose
the sale in this market over $1000. Which is why some
buyers can try to use anything to bitch for a price
reduction. So Bob has a point, but I agree most buyers
won't even know what a sub-panel is.

[bob haller]

On Mar 25, 8:39 pm, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
wrote:

Most people are getting home inspectors, and with a 25 year old panel
with a sub panel the inspector
could ask lots of nosey questions. The entire service is old and
obsolete, the panel maker is no longer in the panel business, 150 amp
main with all these extra breakers is bad idea, etc etc etc,

all the things you dont want when selling a home

[Art Todesco]

Not really true. When selling my house, they signed the contract,
pending inspection and later the buyers demanded everything. I
questioned what the contract is for ... I have to abide by it, why not
the buyers? Yes, I did fix the stuff in the inspection. And, actually,
some stuff I didn't fix just explaining that it wasn't a problem and
they accepted it. But the buyers wanted a new house, i.e. everything
new. They "demanded" a new furnace. The existing one was still partly
under original warranty. I gave a little by buying them an extra year
of home buyer's insurance. Then they demanded that all the brand new
carpeting be clean. I just said NO! Ultimately, the carpeting was
actually cleaned and payed for by my real estate agent and (believe it
or not) my attorney ... just to get these "buyers from hell" off our
backs.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Mar 26, 8:34 am, Art Todesco <actode...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Well, you're right. The buyer can "try" to demand anything
at anytime, for any reason. What I meant was with the
typical real estate contract, unless their demand is for
something that is flagged in the inspection report, or
something else that is very unique and just discovere, they
are not legally in the right and would almost certainly
lose if the case went to court. Let's say for example,
that inspection report says nothing about the carpet
or interior paint being deficient. With the typical contract,
a buyer that now demands new carpet and a paint job
doesn't have a leg to stand on. Sure, as I
said, it may not be worth it to lose the sale over $1000.
But on the other hand, the seller has to decide when
they've had enough and for your lawyer to tell them
if they don't perform to the contract, you're going to sue
them and keep their deposit tied up in escrow.

I was selling a condo once. I had a buyer sign a contract
and apply for a 5% down mortgage. I asked them several
times if they were sure they could get a mortgage and
they said sure, no problem. After about a month, the
buyer called and told me they were approved. They
sent a letter indicating that to my attorney. Just before
the closing, the buyer calls me up and says there is a
problem, the bank withdrew the mortgage committment.
After some pertinent questioning, he fesses up that it
was because he has $50K in outstanding child support.
I asked, "Didn't they know that upfront? He says yes, they
did." He wants his deposit back. I said, fine, just send my
attorney a copy of the mortgage application that shows
you listed the child support on it and I'll return the deposit.

Needless to say, no such letter was forthcoming. His
lawyer did send me a letter saying that if we didn't give
the deposit back in a week, they were going to sue me.
I called up my attorney and told him to right the following
letter:

Dear Mr XYZX attorney:

I am in receipt of your letter indicating that you want to sue us.
I usually advise my clients to avoid litigation, but in some
circumstances it's the only way to find out fully what went
on here.


Sincerely,

ddfdfd


In other words, go ahead, make my day. Let's go to court
so your client can tell the judge how he tried to commit mortgage
fraud. We never heard from them again.....

[bob haller]

On Mar 26, 9:48 am, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
wrote:

The ULTIMATE PURPOSE of a home sale is selling the HOME, not getting
endlessely tied up in litigation.

Both attorneys make money and likely prevent the sale till the
litigation is settled

For ME, its far easier to maintain a home in ready to sale condition
than patch fix to save a buck and have it come back to bite me at sale
time.....

home inspectors will flag a sub panel, hey the main is outdated, its
25 plus years old and someone added a sub panel as a patch

Are Parts for Westinghouse main panels still available? If not that
could be a deal breaker..

[Mikepier]

> Are Parts for Westinghouse main panels still available? If not that

> could be a deal breaker..- Hide quoted text -
>

I think this thread strayed off course for a bit, but:

It appears Lowes and HD sell type "BR" breakers which are for
Westinghouse panels which do fit.
The busbar I purchased is Eaton, which states it is for type "BR"
panels. And the mounting holes do line up, and the screws thread into
the panel. I also bonded it to the existing bussbar with a #4 solid
copper. I was able to swing over a couple of grounds to the new
bussbar, which now opened up a few terminals for the neutrals on the
existing bussbar.
In any event, the next reno that takes place might be converting the
garage to living space. If that occurs, I might run a sub-panel into
the area to make thing easier.

[bud--]

On 3/25/2013 10:36 PM, bob haller wrote:
> On Mar 25, 8:39 pm, "trad...@optonline.net"<trad...@optonline.net>
> wrote:
>> On Mar 25, 7:25 pm, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 09:18:33 -0700 (PDT), bob haller<hall...@aol.com>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> on the panel itself when home resale time comes you will regret having
>>>>>> a sub panel and pieced together main service.
>>
>>>>> Why would that be? As long as it's done to code, nothing
>>>>> I know of that's wrong with a subpanel. And the house has
>>>>> gas for dryer, stove, HW, so 150 amps doesn't seem low.
>>>>> However, if the current panel requires adding bus bars, maybe
>>>>> it's time to just add the new subpanel now.

Bus bars? It is a ground bar, which is a common accessory.

>>
>>>>>> the 150 amp panel may be connected to a 200 amp meter can and service
>>>>>> drop.......

The service drop is irrelevant. Most utilities will replace the drop
free, if needed.

But the service entrance wire will be too small. And the service
entrance pipe will likely be too small.

>>
>>>>> Could be and worth checking. But unless the house really
>>>>> needs 200, it still seems easier adding a subpanel instead of
>>>>> ripping out the whole existing one.

Haller believes every service should be 200A minimum. It is one of his
fetishes, often expressed here. If you put a service on a dog house it
better be 200A.

I made a service calculation on a house in a post by clare. My
recollection is that 100A was more than large enough.

>>
>>>> home buyers look at sub panels as a quick patch fix, and may try to
>>>> demand the cost of a upgrade off the sales price.

Haller looks at sub panels as a patch.
Home buyers are likely not as malinformed.

>>
>>>> in any case it just adds more hassle at sale time:( you will regret
>>>> it......
>>
>>> If you're a wus, perhaps.
>>
>> But the other problem is if they bring anything up like
>> that, just telling them no, doesn't
>> necessarily work either. If you need to sell the house,
>> and you have a reasonable offer, you don't want to lose
>> the sale in this market over $1000. Which is why some
>> buyers can try to use anything to bitch for a price
>> reduction. So Bob has a point, but I agree most buyers
>> won't even know what a sub-panel is.
>
> Most people are getting home inspectors, and with a 25 year old panel
> with a sub panel the inspector
> could ask lots of nosey questions.

It is haller's field of expertise.

> The entire service is old and
> obsolete,

So is the wire, the pipe, the furnace, the water heater, the floors, the
walls, the paint, ....
Best to just bulldoze an obsolete 25 year old house.

> the panel maker is no longer in the panel business, 150 amp
> main with all these extra breakers is bad idea, etc etc etc,

What is an "extra breaker"?
From what is in this thread, 150A is plenty for this house.
Circuit breakers for the panel appear to be readily available.

[tra...@optonline.net]

That's true, if you actually go to litigation. I'm not suggesting
that
someone do that over $1000. But if you let a buyer walk all over you,
what's to keep them from demanding anything they feel like? If you
tell them, heh we have your deposit and if you don't perform, we're
keeping it, that could be enough to bring some back to their senses.
Even their own lawyer would probably tell them, heh, you saw that
carpet and painting before you signed the contract. The inspector
didn't flag it, etc. You don't have a good case, etc.

>
> For ME, its far easier to maintain a home in ready to sale condition
> than patch fix to save a buck and have it come back to bite me at sale
> time.....

The problem is, that any buyer can bitch about anything.
Do you replace your carpet every 5 years on the chance that
you might decide to sell you house someday? How about if
your water heater is 7 years old? Let's say you
have:

A - A guy who keeps his house in average shape, goes to sell
it and the buyer bitches about X,Y, Z which are at least semi-
legitmate.
So, seller fixes those

B - A guy who keeps his house in "ready to sale condition", goes
to sell it, and the buyer still bitches about F, G, H? Now what?
You may have to fix those on top of all the money you spent
trying to have the house ready to sell, unless you are prepared
to say no and lose the deal.

It all depends on the buyer and inspector. Most buyers are
going to want something off for something. You might be better
off in case A, spending $5000 at sale time, giving the buyer a final
concession, which they expect, instead of trying to have the
house perfect and spending a lot over the years to do that. And
even if you do have it perfect, they can still expect something off
anyway.

>
> home inspectors will flag a sub panel, hey the main is outdated, its
> 25 plus years old

I don't see why just because a 150A main panel is 25+ years old,
it's outdated and going to be flagged. I have a 29 year old
panel here and there isn't anything wrong with it.

> and someone added a sub panel as a patch

I don't see a sub panel as a patch. It's work that is
done all the time. If the wiring is an obvious rat's nest,
done by an amature, etc, then that's a different story.
Perhaps some of the resident electricians want to weigh in on that.

>
> Are Parts for Westinghouse main panels still available? If not that

> could be a deal breaker..- Hide quoted text -
>

I see W breakers for sale. Whether they fit that particular
panel or not, who knows. If breakers are no longer available,
then I would agree that would be a good reason to replace
the whole panel. I'd evaluate doing the job both ways. If it
doesn't cost substantially more, I'd agree replacing the panel
would be the better way to go.

[RBM]

It's probably fine, however the panel buss has a direct connection to
what's probably a 2/0 aluminum neutral conductor.
Why not just transfer a pile of ground wires to the new bar, and use the
panel buss for the new neutrals

[RBM]

On 3/25/2013 8:37 AM, Mikepier wrote:
> I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A.

I ask myself that same burning question every time I see one. The cost
differential is so small it never made any sense to me. I am an
electrical contractor, and I've been in the business for over 40 years.
Guess what size service I have in my house.
NO, I didn't install it, but, as it is perfectly adequate, it's on the
low priority list for replacement

[Mikepier]

> Why not just transfer a pile of ground wires to the new bar, and use the
> panel buss for the new neutrals

Because most of the circuits come from the top, and the new gnd bar is
at the bottom, the ground wires don't reach down to the bottom so I
would have to splice the grounds to an extension to reach down to the
new bar.

[Bob Vaughan]

In article <f975b335-9899-455b...@p5g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,

The NEC requires that neutral be bonded to ground at a single point,
normally the service entrance, and _only_ at that single point.

The main panel will typically have the bonding jumper, but all subpanels
will not.

In many panels, a single buss bar is provided, with a bonding screw to the
enclosure. When used as a main panel, the bonding screw is installed.
If you have only one panel, this is probably what you have.
When used as a subpanel, a seperate ground bar is installed, and the bonding
screw is removed.

If you have a seperate meter base and disconnect/main breaker, or
meter/main disconnect combo, with a seperate panel, the bonding jumper
should be located in the main disconnect, and generally not in the panel.
which should have seperate ground and neutral busses. The ground is
normally not located in the meter pan.

If you have a combined meter/main panel, it should have the bonding screw.
All other panels are subpanels, and need to have the bonding screw
removed, and seperate ground and neutral busses installed.


The rules vary a bit for detached structures. Generally, if there is a
single electrical feed, and no other ground path (such as telephone,
or CATV), then it may be possible to consider the feed to the structure
as a seperate service, with it's own ground, and no ground wire is run
between the structures. If there are multiple ground paths, or multiple
circuits, then the structure may need to be tied into the main grounding
system, and no local ground used.
Check with your local authority about local code requirements.


Generators are another fun area. A lot depends on whether the transfer
switch transfers the neutral, and the presence of accessories such as
block heaters, battery chargers, etc. Again, check with your local
authority.


--
-- Welcome My Son, Welcome To The Machine --
Bob Vaughan | techie@{w6yx|tantivy}.stanford.edu | tec...@tantivy.net
AF6RR | P.O. Box 19792, Stanford, Ca 94309-9792 | 1-650-469-3850
-- I am Me, I am only Me, And no one else is Me, What could be simpler? --

[bob haller]

most home buyers inspection says must pass inspection, so anything
like a old main panel that lacked enough slots for the number of
needed breakers kills the deal.... plus W is out of that business..

When I was young, just out of high school I serviced machines at the
Westinghouse breaker plant in vanport, beaver pa. It was a fasinating
and busy place. They offered me a job, with a raise no interview
needed.

I didnt know why but passed on the job.

A short time later their business collapsed, last time I was there
everyone with less than 20 years were let go.

Today that plant carries a different name but still builds some
things. The parking lot is mostly empty, and over half the plant was
leveled. I drove by and could see the outlines on the concrete floors
where I used to service machines:(

[DerbyDad03]

re: I drove by and could see the outlines on the concrete floors

where I used to service machines :(

I used to work at large plant that has slowly been reduced to just a
few buildings. As they tore down unused buildings, they would crush
the brick and use it as landscaping material around remaining
buildings and along roadways.

We would drive through the plant and try to guess what building a
given pile of landscaping material used to be based on the color of
the chunks.

[John Grabowski]

*Several years ago I got a call from someone who wanted a service upgrade.
I went and looked at the job and figured to upgrade to 200 amp. The
customer got mad at me and said he didn't need or want a 200 amp service.
He insisted on upgrading to 150 amp only. I explained to him that there
really wasn't much price difference, but he was adamant about only getting a
150 amp service upgrade.

[RBM]

Some folks are just ignorant, and nothing you say is going to enlighten
them. You should have charged him more for the 150.

[John Grabowski]

*I haven't compared lately, but I think a 200 amp loadcenter combo package
with branch breakers included at Home Depot is cheaper than a 150 at the
supply house.

[bob haller]

I repair office machines mostly in schools for a living, its my own
business.

One day I found a machine missing its ground pin. The machine was
under maintence so the new plug was FREE. The principal came in and I
mentioned I would replace the plug, since the lack of ground was a
safety issue......

The principal argued with me she ONLY wanted the gound pin replaced in
the molded plug. There was no way to do THAT!

So when she left I cut off the plug, and installed a new one. And
called my contact and told him about her wanting me to replace just
the pin:(

As far as I know she never caught what I did.

[RBM]

It's certainly cheaper than at my supply houses

[RBM]

On 3/26/2013 7:40 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:

> Aw come on, you know a 200a will use more power ;-)
That's too funny. I can't tell you how many people would ask me that,
after doing a service upgrade. Then there was this elderly lady that
believed electricity would leak out of the socket if you removed the bulb.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Mar 26, 4:46 pm, bob haller <hall...@aol.com> wrote:

> most home buyers inspection says must pass inspection, so anything
> like a old main panel that lacked enough slots for the number of
> needed breakers kills the deal....

That would have to be really something, a panel with
not enough slots for all the breakers. Where do you put
the extra ones, hanging on the wall? You're creating
a strawman that doesn't exist. If you have a main panel,
it contains it's breakers and the sub panel contains it's
breakers. Neither lacks enough slots and the arrangement
is code compliant. That is what Mike is planning on doing,
right?

You're assuming that most or all home inspectors are going
to fail a properly done sub-panel and I believe that just isn't so.
For one thing, they sure would be wasting a lot of time
answering questions on those inspections when the seller
produces a permit showing it was inspected and approved
by the AHJ. Then what do they say? They have the home
buyer calling them, the home seller calling them.....
Plus, most home inspectors ain't very smart. I would think
they would want to avoid any such controversy by sticking
to what is code compliant and working and what is not.

> plus W is out of that business..

I said earlier that if it's true that no compatible breakers
are available for that panel, then I would replace it instead
of doing a sub-panel. But the OP has not said if that is
in fact, the case.

And again, I'm not saying Mike shouldn't price out doing
the service upgrade, main panel replacement, as opposed
to just adding a sub-panel. But I also don't buy the horror
story that you can't sell a house because it has a sub-panel
and the home inspector is going to flag it as an item needing
repair. Google "subpanel home inspection" and you'll get
lots of hits of discussions involving home inspectors. I
didn't do a close look in detail, but just looking at the overall
results, every discussion is about how to inspect them,
how they should be correctly installed,
improper bonding, etc. Not one says if you find a sub-panel,
flag it as an item that is unacceptable.

[bob haller]

On Mar 27, 8:36 am, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
wrote:

In this case the need for a sub panel shows the panel isnt big
enough.......

What anyone does has ZERO effect on me:)

Home inspectors have become very fussy, they can get sued for missing
anything.....

so everything can get flagged.....

Personally I think its better to avoid home inspection issues than
create them, but maybe thats just me

[jamesgang]

On Monday, March 25, 2013 8:37:38 AM UTC-4, Mikepier wrote:
> I am re-wiring a friends basement and he has a Westinghouse 150A panel with 30 breakers. I ran out of terminals on the ground/neutral bars, even after doubling up on some ground wires of new circuits I ran. So I purchased a grounding buss bar from Home Depot. My question is that the existing mounting holes on this buss bar do not line up with the pre-drilled holes in the panel, so I need to make at least one new one. Since the panel is directly behind plywood, is it possible to just use a large self-tapping screw and screw through the bussbar, through the panel, and through the pywood? The other mounting hole I would use the threaded screw. Also I assume I need to use at least a #6 wire to link the new buss bar with the existing buss bar. That would take car of the basement for now, but looking down the road if other circuits needed to be added for another reno, is it possible to add a sub-panel to the main panel? I thought about changing out the panel to a 200 amp, but I don't think it is necessary, this is a house that uses and gas stove/dryer/water heater. Plus the fact the outside meter pan would need to be changed. The existing panel is maybe 20-25 years old, I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A.

You can drill a hole and use a self tapping screw to add your new bus.

The question this raises is if that panel is rated for 30 circuits. Normally there will be enough ground/neutral connections in the panel as long as you are within it's rated circuits. You said you have 30 breakers in it, are they all full height? Or are some of them half height? Did you connect more than one hot wire to each breaker? Only some breaker models are designed to acccept more than one hot.

If you exceeded the circuits allowed in the box or connectd multiple hots to breakers that only allow one hot those will come back to haunt you on inspection.

[tra...@optonline.net]

Anyone can get sued for anything by anyone that feels like
going down to the court house. However, home inspector contracts
are well written, with plenty of protection and outs for them.
It would have to one hell of an obvious mistake to prevail.

>
> so everything can get flagged.....
>
> Personally I think its better to avoid home inspection issues than

> create them, but maybe thats just me- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

We agree on that, in general. I said Mike should evaluate
doing a panel replacement, service upgrade as well as adding
the sub-panel. I hope he gets back to us with his results and
decision. What I don't agree with is that adding a sub-panel is
going to result in it being flagged by a home inspector. Not
if it's done right. Did you google and see all the home inspectors
discussing the details of inspecting them? I didn't see any
saying, don't bother, just flag a sub-panel as unacceptable.

[bud--]

On 3/27/2013 7:46 AM, jamesgang wrote:
> On Monday, March 25, 2013 8:37:38 AM UTC-4, Mikepier wrote:
>> > I am re-wiring a friends basement and he has a Westinghouse 150A panel with 30 breakers. I ran out of terminals on the ground/neutral bars, even after doubling up on some ground wires of new circuits I ran. So I purchased a grounding buss bar from Home Depot. My question is that the existing mounting holes on this buss bar do not line up with the pre-drilled holes in the panel, so I need to make at least one new one. Since the panel is directly behind plywood, is it possible to just use a large self-tapping screw and screw through the bussbar, through the panel, and through the pywood? The other mounting hole I would use the threaded screw. Also I assume I need to use at least a #6 wire to link the new buss bar with the existing buss bar. That would take car of the basement for now, but looking down the road if other circuits needed to be added for another reno, is it possible to add a sub-panel to the main panel? I thought about changing out the panel to a 200 amp, but I don'
t think it is necessary, this is a house that uses and gas stove/dryer/water heater. Plus the fact the outside meter pan would need to be changed. The existing panel is maybe 20-25 years old, I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A.

> You can drill a hole and use a self tapping screw to add your new bus.

Self tapping screws can not be used as the electrical connection to the
box (as gfretwell wrote). A wire would have to be added to the neutral bus.

>
> The question this raises is if that panel is rated for 30 circuits. Normally there will be enough ground/neutral connections in the panel as long as you are within it's rated circuits.

I don't think that is necessarily true. You don't need a lot of spaces
for ground wires if you wire with EMT and I don't think all panels have
enough neutral bar spaces to wire everything in romex. Ground bars to
add are readily available.

> You said you have 30 breakers in it, are they all full height? Or are some of them half height? Did you connect more than one hot wire to each breaker? Only some breaker models are designed to acccept more than one hot.
>
> If you exceeded the circuits allowed in the box

Generally, you can't exceed the allowed number of circuits. You would
have to install tandem breakers to do that, and they have a rejection
feature that only allows them to be installed in locations indicated on
the panel label. It is a UL Class CTL feature - circuit limiting.

[jamesgang]

On Wednesday, March 27, 2013 10:12:17 AM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
> On 3/27/2013 7:46 AM, jamesgang wrote: > On Monday, March 25, 2013 8:37:38 AM UTC-4, Mikepier wrote: >> > I am re-wiring a friends basement and he has a Westinghouse 150A panel with 30 breakers. I ran out of terminals on the ground/neutral bars, even after doubling up on some ground wires of new circuits I ran. So I purchased a grounding buss bar from Home Depot. My question is that the existing mounting holes on this buss bar do not line up with the pre-drilled holes in the panel, so I need to make at least one new one. Since the panel is directly behind plywood, is it possible to just use a large self-tapping screw and screw through the bussbar, through the panel, and through the pywood? The other mounting hole I would use the threaded screw. Also I assume I need to use at least a #6 wire to link the new buss bar with the existing buss bar. That would take car of the basement for now, but looking down the road if other circuits needed to be added for another reno, is it possible to add a sub-panel to the main panel? I thought about changing out the panel to a 200 amp, but I don' t think it is necessary, this is a house that uses and gas stove/dryer/water heater. Plus the fact the outside meter pan would need to be changed. The existing panel is maybe 20-25 years old, I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A. > You can drill a hole and use a self tapping screw to add your new bus. Self tapping screws can not be used as the electrical connection to the box (as gfretwell wrote). A wire would have to be added to the neutral bus. > > The question this raises is if that panel is rated for 30 circuits. Normally there will be enough ground/neutral connections in the panel as long as you are within it's rated circuits. I don't think that is necessarily true. You don't need a lot of spaces for ground wires if you wire with EMT and I don't think all panels have enough neutral bar spaces to wire everything in romex. Ground bars to add are readily available. > You said you have 30 breakers in it, are they all full height? Or are some of them half height? Did you connect more than one hot wire to each breaker? Only some breaker models are designed to acccept more than one hot. > > If you exceeded the circuits allowed in the box Generally, you can't exceed the allowed number of circuits. You would have to install tandem breakers to do that, and they have a rejection feature that only allows them to be installed in locations indicated on the panel label. It is a UL Class CTL feature - circuit limiting. > or connectd multiple hots to breakers that only allow one hot those will come back to haunt you on inspection.

Ok, install with a self tapping screw, remove the self tapping screw and put in a regular threaded screw.

[RBM]

This is obviously a case where the service is of adequate size but more
distribution is needed. Even a typical 200 amp main breaker panel is
made in 20 circuits, 30 circuits, and 40 circuits. You don't always have
room for a full sized 40 circuit panel. In some instances a new
installation may require a smaller main panel and a sub panel. Contrary
to Haller's opinion, I think a home buyers inspector would like my main
panel and two sub panels. I happen to like a lot of distribution, but I
suppose in Haller's world I should have opted for a sixty circuit panel
to begin with. Guess I'll just be trembling with fear when it's home
selling time.

[bud--]

On 3/27/2013 9:37 AM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 09:11:04 -0600, bud--<remove....@isp.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Self tapping screws can not be used as the electrical connection to the
>> box (as gfretwell wrote). A wire would have to be added to the neutral bus.
>

> You can use a thread forming machine screw if the metal is thick
> enough.
> This is what 250.8 says about it
>
> (5) Machine screw-type fasteners that engage not less than two
> threads or are secured with a nut
> (6) Thread-forming machine screws that engage not less than two
> threads in the enclosure
>
> This excludes a course thread sheet metal screw.

Most parts of a panel are probably not thick enough for 2 threads.

If you have a 100A feeder, are 4 threads (2 screws) adequate for a
ground fault (paint blocks direct contact). It makes me nervous.

Presumably the ground bar that is added is "listed". Not all of them
are. Some are UL "recognized" components that are not the same as
listed. (Or the bar can be accepted by the inspector.)

[bob haller]

On Mar 27, 12:32 pm, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote:
> On 3/27/2013 9:37 AM, gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 09:11:04 -0600, bud--<remove.budn...@isp.com>

The HEAVY COPPER line between the original bar and the added one takes
care of electrical conductivity:)

My biggest problem adding a bar was getting the original ones screws
loose. They must of been tightened at the factory and didnt want to
budge:(

Some I jared loose:( One ripped the screw slot off trying to get it
loose. After that I tried heating some.

The middle group inspector congraulated me on my good job.....

The home inspector flagged the panel because the original inspection
stickers signature had faded:( The sticker was fine the signature cold
be seen but not read......

[bud--]

On 3/27/2013 10:53 AM, bob haller wrote:
> On Mar 27, 12:32 pm, bud--<remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote:
>> On 3/27/2013 9:37 AM, gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 09:11:04 -0600, bud--<remove.budn...@isp.com>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Self tapping screws can not be used as the electrical connection to the
>>>> box (as gfretwell wrote). A wire would have to be added to the neutral bus.
>>
>>> You can use a thread forming machine screw if the metal is thick
>>> enough.
>>> This is what 250.8 says about it
>>
>>> (5) Machine screw-type fasteners that engage not less than two
>>> threads or are secured with a nut
>>> (6) Thread-forming machine screws that engage not less than two
>>> threads in the enclosure
>>
>>> This excludes a course thread sheet metal screw.
>>
>> Most parts of a panel are probably not thick enough for 2 threads.
>>
>> If you have a 100A feeder, are 4 threads (2 screws) adequate for a
>> ground fault (paint blocks direct contact). It makes me nervous.
>>
>> Presumably the ground bar that is added is "listed". Not all of them
>> are. Some are UL "recognized" components that are not the same as
>> listed. (Or the bar can be accepted by the inspector.)
>
> The HEAVY COPPER line between the original bar and the added one takes
> care of electrical conductivity:)

You added a ground bar?????

The panel was obviously obsolete. The house should have been demolished.

>
> The home inspector flagged the panel because the original inspection
> stickers signature had faded:( The sticker was fine the signature cold
> be seen but not read......

Any house that old is obsolete. Who knows what else has faded. The house
should have been demolished.

[jamesgang]

On Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:32:27 PM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
> On 3/27/2013 9:37 AM, gfre...@aol.com wrote: > On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 09:11:04 -0600, bud--<remove....@isp.com> > wrote: > >> Self tapping screws can not be used as the electrical connection to the >> box (as gfretwell wrote). A wire would have to be added to the neutral bus. > > You can use a thread forming machine screw if the metal is thick > enough. > This is what 250.8 says about it > > (5) Machine screw-type fasteners that engage not less than two > threads or are secured with a nut > (6) Thread-forming machine screws that engage not less than two > threads in the enclosure > > This excludes a course thread sheet metal screw. Most parts of a panel are probably not thick enough for 2 threads. If you have a 100A feeder, are 4 threads (2 screws) adequate for a ground fault (paint blocks direct contact). It makes me nervous. Presumably the ground bar that is added is "listed". Not all of them are. Some are UL "recognized" components that are not the same as listed. (Or the bar can be accepted by the inspector.)

10-32 self-tapping machine screw will have two threads in 1/16" sheet metal. The boxes I've seen recently all have machine screws holding the ground bars on. I don't see the difference.

[RBM]

On 3/27/2013 3:04 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 09:53:04 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hal...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The home inspector flagged the panel because the original inspection
>> stickers signature had faded:( The sticker was fine the signature cold
>> be seen but not read......

> Home inspectors are clueless for the most part. Until very recently
> (and still true in some places) these people are self certified.
> The "test" the trade groups give is trivial and it really seems to be
> that they just want the money to certify you.
> I took the HACHI test, got a 94 the first time I saw it and I have
> never seen a oil fired furnace or any kind of boiler. (several
> questions on the test)
> There was an error on the electrical part of the test.
> If I was willing to send them a few hundred bucks, I would be a
> certified home inspector.
> I was on the HACHI BB for a while but I just got tired of explaining
> things like why it was OK to have 10 ga wire going to a A/C compressor
> with a 40a breaker, it is OK to put 2 wires on a SqD breaker and that
> there is no "right" way to orient a NEMA 5-15 receptacle.
>
> These guys get paid to find reasons why the buyer should not pay the
> seller's price, They sometimes "find" ridiculous things while missing
> serious issues.
That is my opinion of these guys exactly. They're typically idiots, and
their only purpose is to concoct a list of issues that enable the buyer
to get a lower price on the house. Listening to Haller, you'd think they
had some actual authority. Can't tell you how many letters I've had to
write to refute their findings over the years.

[RBM]

They don't just drill and tap the sheet metal. They punch the metal into
a depression, then drill and tap the depression, which gives it more
depth and more threads

[RBM]

On 3/26/2013 10:27 AM, bob haller wrote:
> On Mar 26, 9:48 am, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
> wrote:
>> On Mar 26, 8:34 am, Art Todesco <actode...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 3/25/2013 8:39 PM, trad...@optonline.net wrote:
>>>> On Mar 25, 7:25 pm, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 09:18:33 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hall...@aol.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> on the panel itself when home resale time comes you will regret having
>>>>>>>> a sub panel and pieced together main service.
>>>>>>> Why would that be? As long as it's done to code, nothing
>>>>>>> I know of that's wrong with a subpanel. And the house has
>>>>>>> gas for dryer, stove, HW, so 150 amps doesn't seem low.
>>>>>>> However, if the current panel requires adding bus bars, maybe
>>>>>>> it's time to just add the new subpanel now.

>>>>>>>> the 150 amp panel may be connected to a 200 amp meter can and service
>>>>>>>> drop.......

>>>>>>> Could be and worth checking. But unless the house really
>>>>>>> needs 200, it still seems easier adding a subpanel instead of
>>>>>>> ripping out the whole existing one.

>>>>>> home buyers look at sub panels as a quick patch fix, and may try to
>>>>>> demand the cost of a upgrade off the sales price.

>>>>> Tell them "NO". I've never had a buyer care about a sub panel,
>>>>> though. If their inspection report didn't make it an issue, they
>>>>> didn't either.
>>>> In the typical contract, it would have to be an inspection
>>>> report issue. If the inspector doesn't raise an issue with
>>>> it, the buyer can't just say I want a new panel instead of
>>>> the sub-panel that is there. The contract says they've
>>>> agreed to buy the house, subject to any items that are
>>>> identified by the home inspector.
>>> Not really true. When selling my house, they signed the contract,
>>> pending inspection and later the buyers demanded everything. I
>>> questioned what the contract is for ... I have to abide by it, why not
>>> the buyers? Yes, I did fix the stuff in the inspection. And, actually,
>>> some stuff I didn't fix just explaining that it wasn't a problem and
>>> they accepted it. But the buyers wanted a new house, i.e. everything
>>> new. They "demanded" a new furnace. The existing one was still partly
>>> under original warranty. I gave a little by buying them an extra year
>>> of home buyer's insurance. Then they demanded that all the brand new
>>> carpeting be clean. I just said NO! Ultimately, the carpeting was
>>> actually cleaned and payed for by my real estate agent and (believe it
>>> or not) my attorney ... just to get these "buyers from hell" off our
>>> backs.
>> Well, you're right. The buyer can "try" to demand anything
>> at anytime, for any reason. What I meant was with the
>> typical real estate contract, unless their demand is for
>> something that is flagged in the inspection report, or
>> something else that is very unique and just discovere, they
>> are not legally in the right and would almost certainly
>> lose if the case went to court. Let's say for example,
>> that inspection report says nothing about the carpet
>> or interior paint being deficient. With the typical contract,
>> a buyer that now demands new carpet and a paint job
>> doesn't have a leg to stand on. Sure, as I
>> said, it may not be worth it to lose the sale over $1000.
>> But on the other hand, the seller has to decide when
>> they've had enough and for your lawyer to tell them
>> if they don't perform to the contract, you're going to sue
>> them and keep their deposit tied up in escrow.
>>
>> I was selling a condo once. I had a buyer sign a contract
>> and apply for a 5% down mortgage. I asked them several
>> times if they were sure they could get a mortgage and
>> they said sure, no problem. After about a month, the
>> buyer called and told me they were approved. They
>> sent a letter indicating that to my attorney. Just before
>> the closing, the buyer calls me up and says there is a
>> problem, the bank withdrew the mortgage committment.
>> After some pertinent questioning, he fesses up that it
>> was because he has $50K in outstanding child support.
>> I asked, "Didn't they know that upfront? He says yes, they
>> did." He wants his deposit back. I said, fine, just send my
>> attorney a copy of the mortgage application that shows
>> you listed the child support on it and I'll return the deposit.
>>
>> Needless to say, no such letter was forthcoming. His
>> lawyer did send me a letter saying that if we didn't give
>> the deposit back in a week, they were going to sue me.
>> I called up my attorney and told him to right the following
>> letter:
>>
>> Dear Mr XYZX attorney:
>>
>> I am in receipt of your letter indicating that you want to sue us.
>> I usually advise my clients to avoid litigation, but in some
>> circumstances it's the only way to find out fully what went
>> on here.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> ddfdfd
>>
>> In other words, go ahead, make my day. Let's go to court
>> so your client can tell the judge how he tried to commit mortgage
>> fraud. We never heard from them again.....
> The ULTIMATE PURPOSE of a home sale is selling the HOME, not getting
> endlessely tied up in litigation.
>
> Both attorneys make money and likely prevent the sale till the
> litigation is settled
>
> For ME, its far easier to maintain a home in ready to sale condition
> than patch fix to save a buck and have it come back to bite me at sale
> time.....
>
> home inspectors will flag a sub panel, hey the main is outdated, its
> 25 plus years old and someone added a sub panel as a patch
>
> Are Parts for Westinghouse main panels still available? If not that
> could be a deal breaker..
What a bunch of nonsense. I just installed a sub panel in a house so I
could add a few circuits to the basement for the purpose of getting a
C/O for the basement, for the purpose of selling the house. On what
grounds do you think a home inspector would contest the certification
from a certified electrical inspector???

[RBM]

On 3/26/2013 8:34 AM, Art Todesco wrote:

>> All of that is just indicitive of a buyers market. In a sellers
>> market you simply tell the buyer where to stick their wish list.
>>
>>
>>
>

[bob haller]

good luck on your sale, let us know if the sub panel causes
issues.......

[RBM]

It was already in contract when the work was done and closed two weeks
later. You are just delusional

[RBM]

Here is a picture of it, so you can tell me what the violation is that
your house inspector would find:

https://picasaweb.google.com/109118990707724158516/SubPanel?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCLCbj5Cw-ZGZew&feat=directlink

[DerbyDad03]

It looks like one of the drywall screws is too close to the main panel
cover. I've already reported it so be prepared for some serious trouble.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 20:07:29 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hal...@aol.com>
wrote:

None at all, in any of the three houses I've sold. I suppose you
think I couldn't get insurance, either. <nutball>

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 11:37:19 -0400, RBM <r...@noemail.com> wrote:

>On 3/25/2013 8:37 AM, Mikepier wrote:
>> I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A.

>I ask myself that same burning question every time I see one. The cost
>differential is so small it never made any sense to me. I am an
>electrical contractor, and I've been in the business for over 40 years.
>Guess what size service I have in my house.
>NO, I didn't install it, but, as it is perfectly adequate, it's on the
>low priority list for replacement

I have two 150s. Should I change them both to 200s? <boggle>

[RBM]

It's a near-do-well service, but in most cases not worth the effort or
the money to upgrade. Some of the 150's I've seen, only needed to be 100
amp, so I suppose the installers were doing a "better" job at the time

[RBM]

> I suppose you
> think I couldn't get insurance, either. <nutball>
>

That only applies to "all houses" with wiring over 50 years old, knob &
tube, or FPE panels. (Don't wind him up)

[k...@attt.bizz]

Nah, the nutball doesn't think you can get insurance for a house if
you've sneezed in it without an inspection. He *IS* a nutball.

[k...@attt.bizz]

I wouldn't in any case. ;-) I'm sure the two service panels are
there because of the two heat pumps. Yeah, I'd probably go for two
200s, were I doing the work but it's enough. I'm lucky they put in
two 30 position panels. I've already added eight circuits and only
have ten slots left. I'll start adding tandems so I don't run out of
slots and don't have to put in a sub. Wouldn't want to scare the
nutball Haller.

BTW, "at the time" = 2007.

[tra...@optonline.net]

Just for comparison purposes, what would you say is
the typical cost of:

A - Adding a subpanel to the existing 150 panel

B - Putting in a new 200 amp panel, if the meter/service can support
it.

C - Putting in a new 200 amp panel including new service
from the street, say 75 ft drop.....

[The Daring Dufas]

On 3/26/2013 5:50 PM, bob haller wrote:
> On Mar 26, 7:09 pm, RBM <r...@noemail.com> wrote:

>> On 3/26/2013 5:25 PM, John Grabowski wrote:
>>
>>>>> I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A.
>>>> I ask myself that same burning question every time I see one.
>>>> The cost differential is so small it never made any sense to
>>>> me. I am an electrical contractor, and I've been in the
>>>> business for over 40 years. Guess what size service I have in
>>>> my house. NO, I didn't install it, but, as it is perfectly
>>>> adequate, it's on the low priority list for replacement
>>

>>> *Several years ago I got a call from someone who wanted a
>>> service upgrade. I went and looked at the job and figured to
>>> upgrade to 200 amp. The customer got mad at me and said he
>>> didn't need or want a 200 amp service. He insisted on upgrading
>>> to 150 amp only. I explained to him that there really wasn't much
>>> price difference, but he was adamant about only getting a 150 amp
>>> service upgrade.
>>
>> Some folks are just ignorant, and nothing you say is going to
>> enlighten them. You should have charged him more for the 150.
>
> I repair office machines mostly in schools for a living, its my own
> business.
>
> One day I found a machine missing its ground pin. The machine was
> under maintence so the new plug was FREE. The principal came in and
> I mentioned I would replace the plug, since the lack of ground was a
> safety issue......
>
> The principal argued with me she ONLY wanted the gound pin replaced
> in the molded plug. There was no way to do THAT!
>
> So when she left I cut off the plug, and installed a new one. And
> called my contact and told him about her wanting me to replace just
> the pin:(
>
> As far as I know she never caught what I did.
>

Bob, your story of the principal and her asinine attitude reminds me of
several instance of bizarre demands I've encountered over the years and
the actions I've had to take to satisfy the goofballs to let them go
about they're life blissfully unaware that they had been bamboozled. I
had a partner in a business where we were building sound systems, amps
and speakers. The guy was a bit bonkers but who isn't so I tried to use
his talents that weren't too far out in space. He insisted on setting
the bass and treble controls up one notch past the center on his amp
that we were using to test the rather large speakers we were building,
claiming he could hear hear the difference. If I ever set the controls
to the center, he became angry and set them back to one notch higher. So
rather than argue anymore, I set the controls to center, removed the
knobs and put them back on so they showed the controls were set one
notch above center. When he came by and saw that I was operating the amp
with the controls at his preferred setting, the smug look on his face
had me laughing internally since he never knew what I had done....
Many years ago, an instructor I had in a course for broadcast
engineering gave me a word that I still use which describes a mythical
electronic/electric/mechanical device which does not exist and never
will, the word is "Framistan". When I've had to deal with someone who
has no technical knowledge and is a difficult person to deal with who
demands to be told exactly whats wrong with a piece of equipment rather
than accepting the explanation that it's broken, I tell them it has a
defective Framistan and that my supplier is trying to locate one. If the
unpleasant person demands to know what a Framistan is, I go on to
explain that it's a quantum resonance device named after the unusual
metallic element the device is made with found only in the region of
Framistan located in a very hard to access and difficult to mine area
between Afghanistan and Pakistan. The substance requires special
handling and UPS and FedEx have a very hard time getting in and out of
Framistan so even though each device requires a tiny amount of the
element, it's very expensive due to the great difficulty obtaining it.
If that doesn't satisfy them I finally explain that they will die if
they do not walk away from me immediately. ^_^

TDD

[Attila Iskander]

"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@stinky-finger.net> wrote in message
news:kj8ct6$ni1$1...@dont-email.me...

Do you threat\en to feed them the Framistan as a suppository ?

[The Daring Dufas]

Only if they're talking out their ass. ^_^

TDD

[RBM]

I'm not the best person to answer this for you. For the last dozen or so
years I have not done service upgrades, so I have no idea of the current
pricing in my area let alone NJ. I could install a 12-16 circuit sub
panel with 100 amp main for $4-$500

In my area you would pretty much not touch the overhead drop in a
service upgrade, but do have to replace the standpipe conductors, meter
box, service entrance conductors, main breaker panel, and grounding
electrode system. The last price numbers I've heard for a garden variety
200 amp overhead service upgrade, was in the $2500 range.
John Grabowski would be able to give you much better details, being from
NJ, and he probably still does them.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Mar 31, 7:48 pm, RBM <r...@noemail.com> wrote:

> NJ, and he probably still does them.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks for the info. I'm not actually in need of one. I was
just curious as to the relative price. Bob H was making the case
that you should do the upgrade and panel replacement, instead
of adding a subpanel. I was just curious in general how
much the difference in cost would be. Your numbers are about
what I was guessing, meaning there is a substantial difference.

[dpb]

On 3/31/2013 6:52 PM, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
...

> Thanks for the info. I'm not actually in need of one. I was
> just curious as to the relative price. Bob H was making the case
> that you should do the upgrade and panel replacement, instead
> of adding a subpanel. I was just curious in general how
> much the difference in cost would be. Your numbers are about
> what I was guessing, meaning there is a substantial difference.

Well, BobH is just nutz--he has these fixations that are totally
unreasonable and all the evidence to the contrary insists on continuing
to spread FUD... :(

--

[RBM]

In my opinion, a professional would do a service upgrade if a load
calculation, or the demand required it. Often the only thing that's
lacking are breaker spaces. If the service size is adequate but you just
don't have enough spaces for the amount of circuits you want to install,
you use a sub panel.

Haller is totally clueless. In his mind a sub panel is some sub standard
way of increasing circuit capacity therefore a larger service should be
installed. He typically uses straw men like " home buyer inspectors" to
bolster his weird notions. I posted a link to a recent sub panel I
installed and am still waiting to hear what his home inspector's
objections would be. In this particular case the main panel is already a
40 circuit. They don't come any bigger, regardless of the service size,
so what are you supposed to do if more circuits are needed?

[dpb]

On 3/31/2013 7:15 PM, RBM wrote:
...

> Haller is totally clueless.

Amen..

...

> ... the main panel is already a

> 40 circuit. They don't come any bigger, regardless of the service size,
> so what are you supposed to do if more circuits are needed?

BH would probably say you just shouldn't want for so much... :)

--

[Stormin Mormon]

I have always appreciated downhome country wisdom. Especially when I have to
adjust a piece of equipment by a few microfleems.
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
.

"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@stinky-finger.net> wrote in message
news:kj8ct6$ni1$1...@dont-email.me...

[Stormin Mormon]

Would that be a Framispository?

Detected by colorectal Exfram?

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
.

"Attila Iskander" <Attila....@live.com> wrote in message
news:kj8e31$r7s$1...@dont-email.me...

"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@stinky-finger.net> wrote in message
news:kj8ct6$ni1$1...@dont-email.me...

> metallic element the device is made with found only in the region of
> Framistan located in a very hard to access and difficult to mine area
> between Afghanistan and Pakistan. The substance requires special handling
> and UPS and FedEx have a very hard time getting in and out of Framistan so
>

[bob haller]

How many here have sold a home and had it inspected in the last 6
years?

Most here would want to buy a fixer upper, save money, and DIY.

Home buyers I had dealings with:( Want a perfect code compliant home
to the code 5 years in the future, tend to buy to the top of their
price range leaving no money for upgrades, complain about paint and
carpet color, and have home inspectors who havent a clue, basically a
PIA:(

The best way to avoid a LOT of hassles is minimize anything you can
that they might complain about.

If the service drop and meter will allow a upgrade to 200 amps, and
the existing panel is a WESTINGHOUSE, where you might get breakers but
not parts, I would upgrade to 200 amps in a heartbeat.....

of course your mileage may vary.

if you do repairs and upgrades before you try to sell home you can
DIY, once your in the sales process ALL work must be done by
registered contractors, at 5 times the cost....



I have a very good elderly friend whos home is literally falling
apart. Needs roof leaking, box gutters bad, porch floor bad, bricks on
bad areas so no one falls thru, home not painted in 25 years.......

he states home is great top notch, he is in his 80s and saving the
money for his old age. he is a millionaire.....

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Mar 31, 8:15 pm, RBM <r...@noemail.com> wrote:

> so what are you supposed to do if more circuits are needed?- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

As far as capacity, the house in this thread, with a 150 service,
having gas cooking, gas WH, gas dryer, probably has more capacity
than my house does with a 200. I have an electric dryer, electric
cooking and 5 ton AC.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Mar 31, 10:35 pm, bob haller <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
> How many here have sold a home and had it inspected in the last 6
> years?

>
> Most here would want to buy a fixer upper, save money, and DIY.
>
> Home buyers I had dealings with:( Want a perfect code compliant home
> to the code 5 years in the future,

A house with a 150 service and a subpanel is code compliant,
is it not? How you make something code compliant today to new
codes that will exist 5 years from now, I don't know.

tend to buy to the top of their
> price range leaving no money for upgrades, complain about paint and
> carpet color, and have home inspectors who havent a clue, basically a
> PIA:(
>
> The best way to avoid a LOT of hassles is minimize anything you can
> that they might complain about.

The problem is, what is the cost of all of that minimizing?
The roof is 18 years old, get a new roof? WH is 8 years old,
get a new WH? HVAC is 12 years old, get a new HVAC?
Or in the case under discussion, pay $2000 more
to upgrade the electric service instead of installing a subpanel?

And if you have buyers that are going to want discounts because
of carpet or paint color, where does it end? I would submit
that you could spend $25K trying to minimize and then the
buyers still want $2K of stuff fixed. If you didn't do the $25K in
fixing what isn't really broken, might they not then agree to $5K
in repairs to cover some stuff, that isn't really broken? So IMO
you could spend $25K+$2K or you could just knock off $5K at
sale time. Or buy them a warranty on the furnace, AC, etc

And if you have a nut case buyer that is being totally
unreasonable, unless you're desperate to sell, I say just
say no. If they are so worried about squeezing every
nickel out of your hide, they are probably also just as
worried about seeing their $500 for home inspection,
the $200 or so they already spent on a lawyer go down
the drain if they don't buy the house.

>
> If the service drop and meter will allow a upgrade to 200 amps, and
> the existing panel is a WESTINGHOUSE, where you might get breakers but
> not parts, I would upgrade to 200 amps in a heartbeat.....
>
> of course your mileage may vary.
>
> if you do repairs and upgrades before you try to sell home you can
> DIY, once your in the sales process ALL work must be done by
> registered contractors, at 5 times the cost....

Who exactly says that you can't do the work yourself?
It's still my house. And anything I could do legally before,
I can still do, unless you signed a contract that says
otherwise. If so, then I guess you have to call an electrician
to replace a GFI and a painter to paint the front door.

>
> I have a very good elderly friend whos home is literally falling
> apart. Needs roof leaking, box gutters bad, porch floor bad, bricks on
> bad areas so no one falls thru, home not painted in 25 years.......
>
> he states home is great top notch, he is in his 80s and saving the
> money for his old age. he is a millionaire.....

There is a difference between a house that is an obvious
wreck and fixing things that really aren't broken in an attempt
to eliminate any possible objection.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sun, 31 Mar 2013 19:35:02 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hal...@aol.com>
wrote:

>How many here have sold a home and had it inspected in the last 6
>years?
>
>Most here would want to buy a fixer upper, save money, and DIY.
>
>Home buyers I had dealings with:( Want a perfect code compliant home
>to the code 5 years in the future, tend to buy to the top of their
>price range leaving no money for upgrades, complain about paint and
>carpet color, and have home inspectors who havent a clue, basically a
>PIA:(
>
>The best way to avoid a LOT of hassles is minimize anything you can
>that they might complain about.
>
>If the service drop and meter will allow a upgrade to 200 amps, and
>the existing panel is a WESTINGHOUSE, where you might get breakers but
>not parts, I would upgrade to 200 amps in a heartbeat.....
>
>of course your mileage may vary.
>
>if you do repairs and upgrades before you try to sell home you can
>DIY, once your in the sales process ALL work must be done by
>registered contractors, at 5 times the cost....

Simply absurd! I've done the work four times (three of my houses and
my MIL's), now. Just finished the last one Friday, in fact. <whew!>

>I have a very good elderly friend whos home is literally falling
>apart. Needs roof leaking, box gutters bad, porch floor bad, bricks on
>bad areas so no one falls thru, home not painted in 25 years.......

Seems he's not *that* good of a friend, eh?

>he states home is great top notch, he is in his 80s and saving the
>money for his old age. he is a millionaire.....

What's any of this got to do with your absurd claims?

[bob haller]

>
> > if you do repairs and upgrades before you try to sell home you can
> > DIY, once your in the sales process ALL work must be done by
> > registered contractors, at 5 times the cost....
>
> Who exactly says that you can't do the work yourself?
> It's still my house.  And anything I could do legally before,
> I can still do, unless you signed a contract that says
> otherwise.  If so, then I guess you have to call an electrician
> to replace a GFI and a painter to paint the front door.
>

Standard home sales contracts contain clause all repairs must be done
by registered licensed contractors with receipts

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 1 Apr 2013 10:32:05 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hal...@aol.com>
wrote:

>
>>

Bullshit.

[tra...@optonline.net]

There is no "standard" and the ones I've signed did not
contain any such clauses. I mean it's ridiculous if or example the
buyer is bitching about extending downspouts,
a leaky faucet, or trash on the property to
require licensed contractors. I've sold properties and
done the few things squawked myself and no one bitched.
Why would you sign a contract that says any and all
repairs have to be done by a licensed contractor?

[DerbyDad03]

I just looked through "Contract for Sale of Real Estate - Residential"
for NY, Caifornia and Florida at http://www.uslegalforms.com/

Maybe those contracts aren't "standard", but I was unable to find any
mention that "all repairs must be done by registered licensed
contractors with receipts".

I searched the documents for "repair", "licensed" and "contractor" and
while "licensed" comes up with regard to Radon inspections and some
other items, none of the contracts say anything about repairs being
done by licensed contractors.

The only thing I could find with regards to repairs were statements
like this:

"Buyer accepts the Property in its present condition; provided Seller,
at Seller’s expense, shall complete the following repairs and
treatment:"

and other such statements that do no more than define who will be
responsible for the repairs. Nothing is stated as to who must perform
the repairs.

[bob haller]

On Apr 1, 2:27 pm, DerbyDad03 <teamarr...@eznet.net> wrote:
> On Apr 1, 1:32 pm, bob haller <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > if you do repairs and upgrades before you try to sell home you can
> > > > DIY, once your in the sales process ALL work must be done by
> > > > registered contractors, at 5 times the cost....
>
> > > Who exactly says that you can't do the work yourself?
> > > It's still my house.  And anything I could do legally before,
> > > I can still do, unless you signed a contract that says
> > > otherwise.  If so, then I guess you have to call an electrician
> > > to replace a GFI and a painter to paint the front door.
>
> > Standard home sales contracts contain clause all repairs must be done
> > by registered licensed contractors with receipts
>
> I just looked through "Contract for Sale of Real Estate - Residential"

> for NY, Caifornia and Florida athttp://www.uslegalforms.com/

>
> Maybe those contracts aren't "standard", but I was unable to find any
> mention that "all repairs must be done by registered licensed
> contractors with receipts".
>
> I searched the documents for "repair", "licensed" and "contractor" and
> while "licensed" comes up with regard to Radon inspections and some
> other items, none of the contracts say anything about repairs being
> done by licensed contractors.
>
> The only thing I could find with regards to repairs were statements
> like this:
>
> "Buyer accepts the Property in its present condition; provided Seller,
> at Seller’s expense, shall complete the following repairs and
> treatment:"
>
> and other such statements that do no more than define who will be
> responsible for the repairs. Nothing is stated as to who must perform
> the repairs.

Well I have sold a house, In PA its standard.

In phoenix my family bought and sold 5 or 6 homes. That clause was
standard on all home sales.

If you think about it a buyer gets a home inspector who finds
problems, so the buyer requires repairs.

to get quality repars the licensed contractor clause is standard, so
the seller gets a quality repair done and the buyer doesnt end up with
a safety hazard...

[tra...@optonline.net]

> a safety hazard...- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Here is a boilerplate contract from a PA real estate
association:


http://parealtorcore.com/COREforms/ASR-fill.pdf

Nothing about all repairs needing to be done by a licensed
contractor. So it can't be that standard. Also, I haven't seen it
in contracts here in the Peoples Republic of NJ. I would think it
would show up here long before PA.

[chaniarts]

>> at Seller�s expense, shall complete the following repairs and

>> treatment:"
>>
>> and other such statements that do no more than define who will be
>> responsible for the repairs. Nothing is stated as to who must perform
>> the repairs.
>
> Well I have sold a house, In PA its standard.
>
> In phoenix my family bought and sold 5 or 6 homes. That clause was
> standard on all home sales.
>
> If you think about it a buyer gets a home inspector who finds
> problems, so the buyer requires repairs.
>
> to get quality repars the licensed contractor clause is standard, so
> the seller gets a quality repair done and the buyer doesnt end up with
> a safety hazard...
>

sorry, but no. i live in phoenix, sold a house not too long ago, and the
standard contract did not include this clause. as a matter of fact, i
fixed a number of items myself, without any problems.

http://www.uslegalforms.com/samples/AZ/AZ-00472.pdf

on page 3:

Buyer accepts the Property in its present condition; provided Seller, at

Seller�s expense, shall complete the following repairs and treatment:

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 1 Apr 2013 12:50:22 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hal...@aol.com>
wrote:

Bulllshit. Show us.

>In phoenix my family bought and sold 5 or 6 homes. That clause was
>standard on all home sales.

More Haller Bullshit.

>If you think about it a buyer gets a home inspector who finds
>problems, so the buyer requires repairs.

So what?

>to get quality repars the licensed contractor clause is standard, so
>the seller gets a quality repair done and the buyer doesnt end up with
>a safety hazard...

Nope. If the buyer is worried about the quality of the repairs, he
gets it reinspected. I had that happen with some electrical issues in
my MIL's house. No big deal. The inspector didn't charge anything
for the second inspection; just a quick check.

[bob haller]

On Apr 1, 4:23 pm, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Apr 2013 12:50:22 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hall...@aol.com>

Like ANYTHING it might depend on the buyers agent.

My brother had a small wall by his driveway that had a minor hit, and
cracked. He fixed it himself and claimed he couldnt find the
receipt.... the buyer accepted his explnation.

but really a small wall by a driveway needs a pro? it wasnt a
retaining wall it was decorative....

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 1 Apr 2013 14:01:58 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hal...@aol.com>
wrote:

<crickets>

>>
>> >In phoenix my family bought and sold 5 or 6 homes. That clause was
>> >standard on all home sales.
>>
>> More Haller Bullshit.

<crickets>

>>
>> >If you think about it a buyer gets a home inspector who finds
>> >problems, so the buyer requires repairs.
>>
>> So what?
>>
>> >to get quality repars the licensed contractor clause is standard, so
>> >the seller gets a quality repair done and the buyer doesnt end up with
>> >a safety hazard...
>>
>> Nope. �If the buyer is worried about the quality of the repairs, he
>> gets it reinspected. �I had that happen with some electrical issues in
>> my MIL's house. �No big deal. �The inspector didn't charge anything
>> for the second inspection; just a quick check.
>
>Like ANYTHING it might depend on the buyers agent.

Bullshit, Haller. You said it was in the STANDARD CONTRACT. IOW,
you're lying. Again.

>My brother had a small wall by his driveway that had a minor hit, and
>cracked. He fixed it himself and claimed he couldnt find the
>receipt.... the buyer accepted his explnation.

Even you admit that you're lying.

>but really a small wall by a driveway needs a pro? it wasnt a
>retaining wall it was decorative....

<boggle>

[bob haller]

On Apr 1, 5:17 pm, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Apr 2013 14:01:58 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hall...@aol.com>

Go try and sell a home TODAY and let us know how easy it is

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 1 Apr 2013 17:24:15 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hal...@aol.com>
wrote:

<more crickets>

>>
>> >> >In phoenix my family bought and sold 5 or 6 homes. That clause was
>> >> >standard on all home sales.
>>
>> >> More Haller Bullshit.
>>
>> <crickets>

<crickets out the wazoo>

>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> >If you think about it a buyer gets a home inspector who finds
>> >> >problems, so the buyer requires repairs.
>>
>> >> So what?
>>
>> >> >to get quality repars the licensed contractor clause is standard, so
>> >> >the seller gets a quality repair done and the buyer doesnt end up with
>> >> >a safety hazard...
>>
>> >> Nope. �If the buyer is worried about the quality of the repairs, he
>> >> gets it reinspected. �I had that happen with some electrical issues in
>> >> my MIL's house. �No big deal. �The inspector didn't charge anything
>> >> for the second inspection; just a quick check.
>>
>> >Like ANYTHING it might depend on the buyers agent.
>>
>> Bullshit, Haller. �You said it was in the STANDARD CONTRACT. �IOW,
>> you're lying. �Again.
>>
>> >My brother had a small wall by his driveway that had a minor hit, and
>> >cracked. He fixed it himself and claimed he couldnt find the
>> >receipt.... the buyer accepted his explnation.
>>
>> Even you admit that you're lying.
>>
>> >but really a small wall by a driveway needs a pro? it wasnt a
>> >retaining wall it was decorative....
>>
>> <boggle>
>
>Go try and sell a home TODAY and let us know how easy it is

I just did, dummy. I finished their "punch list" on Friday and they
moved in Saturday. I hired two contractors, one a roofer to look at
some "missing" shingles on the bottom edge of the chimney flashing
(there weren't supposed to be any there) and another to replace
another double-glazed window that failed (that makes 24 of 26 that
failed). Neither charged me a dime and all of the rest of the work I
did myself. No complaints.

Want to try again? ...or do you want to continue to show everyone
what a fool you are.

Oh, and my insurance company didn't bitch, either.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Apr 1, 11:04 pm, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Apr 2013 17:24:15 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hall...@aol.com>

> Oh, and my insurance company didn't bitch, either.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Also, it's often easier to just fix the simple things yourself and
then
agree with the buyer on an amount to cover anything that's more
involved or that involves personal choice. Dishwasher doesn't
work? Here's $350, get one you like. It's faster and then
there is no arguing over the quality, results of repairs, etc.

[bud--]

On 4/1/2013 1:50 PM, bob haller wrote:
>
> to get quality repars the licensed contractor clause is standard, so
> the seller gets a quality repair done and the buyer doesnt end up with
> a safety hazard...

Since other have shown that is bullshit, apparently it only is used in
contracts for houses you sell. Your ignorance in electrical areas
apparently applies to other trades as well, and buyers must be protected.

[k...@attt.bizz]

I forgot to mention that the only reason I hired the above contractors
was 1) I knew there weren't supposed to be any shingles over the
chimney flashing (nothing to attach them to) but wanted someone else
to tell the buyer that and 2) the windows were under warranty so I had
to have a contractor do the work (dumb bastards built the windows
inside out and the low-E coating turned color because it was exposed
to the elements).

>Also, it's often easier to just fix the simple things yourself and
>then
>agree with the buyer on an amount to cover anything that's more
>involved or that involves personal choice. Dishwasher doesn't
>work? Here's $350, get one you like. It's faster and then
>there is no arguing over the quality, results of repairs, etc.

Absolutely. I've been on both ends of that deal, too. It's perfectly
normal. This stuff isn't the rocket-surgery Haller pretends it to be.

[bob haller]

my realtor said at the time he had to sell the home twice, initially
then after inspection.......

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:27:46 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hal...@aol.com>
wrote:

>my realtor said at the time he had to sell the home twice, initially
>then after inspection.......

Which has precisely what to do with anything that's been discussed
here?

<continuous boggle>

[bob haller]

On Apr 2, 7:13 pm, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:27:46 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hall...@aol.com>

> wrote:
>
> >my realtor said at the time he had to sell the home twice, initially
> >then after inspection.......
>
> Which has precisely what to do with anything that's been discussed
> here?
>
> <continuous boggle>

Issues even minor ones that come up on home inspection can and do kill
sales......

Often when your selling the goal is to sell and move on to whatever
you were planning to do....

So buyer signs with the ever present inspection clause, home inspector
works hard to find even minor stuff to justify their fee.

Buyer gets a long list of issues and gets scared off.

Realtor must sell home again.....

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 05:11:09 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hal...@aol.com>
wrote:

>On Apr 2, 7:13 pm, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>> On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:27:46 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hall...@aol.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >my realtor said at the time he had to sell the home twice, initially
>> >then after inspection.......
>>
>> Which has precisely what to do with anything that's been discussed
>> here?
>>
>> <continuous boggle>
>
>Issues even minor ones that come up on home inspection can and do kill
>sales......

Yours? I would believe that. You make *everything* an act of
Congress.

>Often when your selling the goal is to sell and move on to whatever
>you were planning to do....

Wow! Who wudda thunk.

>So buyer signs with the ever present inspection clause, home inspector
>works hard to find even minor stuff to justify their fee.

Capt. Obvious strikes again.

>Buyer gets a long list of issues and gets scared off.
>
>Realtor must sell home again.....

You didn't answer the question.

[bob haller]

> You didn't answer the question.

if everyone who owned a home maintained it properly and didnt attempt
to cover up issues, home inspection would be a minor industry.

my friend whos home is a wreck smiles and claims its top notch and
currently expects to get top price at sales time........

that why buyers and sellers have zero trust these days......

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 13:32:59 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hal...@aol.com>
wrote:

>

>> You didn't answer the question.
>
>if everyone who owned a home maintained it properly and didnt attempt
>to cover up issues, home inspection would be a minor industry.

Complete bullshit.

>my friend whos home is a wreck smiles and claims its top notch and
>currently expects to get top price at sales time........

Your point being? ..that you run around with idiots? That's hardly a
revelation.

>that why buyers and sellers have zero trust these days......

Bullshit. "Trust but verify."

You still haven't answered the question and it's still pertinent.

[bob haller]

On Apr 3, 6:36 pm, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 13:32:59 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hall...@aol.com>

hey fred, take a chill pill.......

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:03:43 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hal...@aol.com>
wrote:

Hey, kathy, why don't you answer the simple question? It's *still*
relevant.