Long turn vs. short turn 90deg elbow: sanitary from toilets

[milli...@yahoo.com]

Hi.
I'm replacing the cast iron 4" sanitary lines to my two bathrooms with PVC. They drop vertically from each bathroom and turn 90degrees to horizontal in the basement. This turn is via existing long turn/long sweep elbows.

Is there any problem if I switch these to short turn 90 deg elbows? I'd like to regain the headroom in the basement and keep these pipes within the ceiling joist level, instead of having these stick out below the (future) finished ceiling level in the basement. I can't find anything in the plumbing codes on this. All advice appreciated.

Thanks
Theodore.

[FrozenNorth]

There is probably no problem doing that, but just in case, use elbows
with a cleanout.


--
Froz...

Quando omni flunkus, moritati

[Oren]

... I'd ensure to maintain proper pitch (slope) in the pipe

[dpb]

And _I_ would likely not remove the sweeps, either...an inch or two of
head room isn't worth the possible hassle imo.

--

[TomR]

In news:d0cdd351-f06b-497b...@googlegroups.com,
milli...@yahoo.com <milli...@yahoo.com> typed:

Are you also replacing the vertical sewer pipe that comes down from the two
toilets (and/or are they just coming through from the first floor right
above the basement)?

If so, you can probably switch from 4" cast iron to 3 " PVC. That in itself
may give you more room and may even allow you to use 3" sweep 90 deg elbows.

[milli...@yahoo.com]

More info:
Yes, I'm replacing all pipes, but I'd rather not tempt fate and reduce overall size of pipe diameter. That would really make me nervous.

Pipe slope is not an issue. I will guarantee to maintain that no matter what I do.

Difference between 4" long sweep and 4" short sweep elbow is definitely noticeable. But other than rule-of-thumb to leave what was there, is there any specific code requirement or plumbing rule that says vert-to-horiz turn MUST be long-sweep.

[Oren]

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:59:54 -0700 (PDT), milli...@yahoo.com wrote:

>Difference between 4" long sweep and 4" short sweep elbow is definitely noticeable. But other than rule-of-thumb to leave what was there, is there any specific code requirement or plumbing rule that says vert-to-horiz turn MUST be long-sweep.

Fair question. My pipes are in a concrete foundation with a shallow
sweep. Wish it was long to allow me to use a wax less toilet ring
seal. Last I tried one would not work. No way to modify or cut it
down.

I'll check next time for a "newer" version of a wax less seal.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Long sweeps are virtually NEVER used for the reason you stated. "90"s
"T" and "T-Y" fittings are pretty well the only thing used.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

I'd remove the "sweeps" and go with the generally accepted and
commonly used fittings made and sold expressly for the application. Do
make sure your drop is correct - the right amount of slope on the
pipes. Don't figure more slope is better - install according to the
slope specified in code.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:59:54 -0700 (PDT), milli...@yahoo.com wrote:

I've never seen "long sweep" elbows used for sanitary drains.

[Tekkie®]

milli...@yahoo.com posted for all of us...

I don't think so. Why not add a clean-out while doing it? Might help later.

--
Tekkie

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:14:42 -0400,

So what are they used for?

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 21:51:54 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

Don't know - never seen them used.

[J...@spamblocked.com]

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:06:27 -0700 (PDT), milli...@yahoo.com wrote:

>Is there any problem if I switch these to short turn 90 deg elbows? I'd like to regain
> the headroom in the basement and keep these pipes within the ceiling joist level, ins
>tead of having these stick out below the (future) finished ceiling level in the basement.
>I can't find anything in the plumbing codes on this. All advice appreciated.

They used a long sweep for a reason. Remember, solids go down, not just
water. You could raise the toilets on a platform made from 2X8's and
plywood decking, in the bathrooms. That would make for more headroom in
the basement. And just think, when you sat on those raised toilets, you
would really feel like a king sitting on the THRONE !!!!

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 12 Oct 2015 22:03:14 -0400,

cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

>On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 21:51:54 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
>wrote:
>
>>In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:14:42 -0400,
>>cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:59:54 -0700 (PDT), milli...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>More info:
>>>>Yes, I'm replacing all pipes, but I'd rather not tempt fate and reduce overall size of pipe diameter. That would really make me nervous.
>>>>
>>>>Pipe slope is not an issue. I will guarantee to maintain that no matter what I do.
>>>>
>>>>Difference between 4" long sweep and 4" short sweep elbow is definitely noticeable. But other than rule-of-thumb to leave what was there, is there any specific code requirement or plumbing rule that says vert-to-horiz turn MUST be long-sweep.
>>> I've never seen "long sweep" elbows used for sanitary drains.
>>
>>So what are they used for?

>Don't know - never seen them used.

ROFL

[milli...@yahoo.com]

> They used a long sweep for a reason. Remember, solids go down, not just
> water. You could raise the toilets on a platform made from 2X8's and
> plywood decking, in the bathrooms. That would make for more headroom in
> the basement. And just think, when you sat on those raised toilets, you
> would really feel like a king sitting on the THRONE !!!!

Yes, but the Queen would definitely not approve of such a solution.

Interestingly, I'm reading alot of the posts on this thread that sound like suggestions and recommendations, but no one is coming right out and saying "I'm a licensed plumber and [long-sweep or short sweep] is STANDARD PRACTICE or IBC-requirement for plumbing a toilet and so you should do [xyz method]."

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:52:07 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>

wrote:

>In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 12 Oct 2015 22:03:14 -0400,
>cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 21:51:54 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:14:42 -0400,
>>>cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:59:54 -0700 (PDT), milli...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>More info:
>>>>>Yes, I'm replacing all pipes, but I'd rather not tempt fate and reduce overall size of pipe diameter. That would really make me nervous.
>>>>>
>>>>>Pipe slope is not an issue. I will guarantee to maintain that no matter what I do.
>>>>>
>>>>>Difference between 4" long sweep and 4" short sweep elbow is definitely noticeable. But other than rule-of-thumb to leave what was there, is there any specific code requirement or plumbing rule that says vert-to-horiz turn MUST be long-sweep.
>>>> I've never seen "long sweep" elbows used for sanitary drains.
>>>
>>>So what are they used for?
>
>>Don't know - never seen them used.
>
>ROFL

Here in Ontario, in residential applications, the standard radius
fittings appear to be "the standard" - everything tucks up nice and
neat between the floor joists and the majority of basements are
finished living space, Second story bathrooms and 2 story and split
level houses are more common than bungalows, and the "standard"
fittings mean no bulges or bulkheads are required to fit sanitary
sewer connections. Large radius fittings are occaisionally used for 1
1/2" or 2" sink and laundry drains, but even there, they would be the
exception tather than the rule.. In the vast majority of cases the
WC/Toilet is close to the vertical rizer/stack with no horizontal
bends - the "run" is straight from the flange to the stack, which runs
from the pipes under the basement floor slab straight up to the stack
vent in the roof, with all sink drains etc joining into the vertical
stack as well. Sometimes a house will have 2 stacks if there are
bathrooms at opposite ends of the house.

I quess I HAVE seen the long radius 4" used in horizontal bends under
slabs, when I come to think of it - but even there, they are not
"common". Horizontal bends in the framed flooring

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 13 Oct 2015 00:17:13 -0400,

This is not as funny as your first answer, but thanks.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

I'm not a licenced plumber, but the last 3 houses I've lived in, as
well as the last 3 houses my father lived in (2 of which he built) all
used the "standard radius" fittings. I've done work in several of the
houses in my neighbourhood - all in the 40 year old range - and they
are also all "standard radius" 4" plastic drains.
I put in a basement bath and laundry in my daughter's house and
finished the basement. I had a licenced plumber work with me on the
under-slab modifications to the sanitary drain - and everything was
done with "standard radius" bends with the possible exception of one
"45" required to connect the laundry under the slab - and that was not
a 4 inch pipe.

That said, this is Ontario Canada, and we do things a bit differently
up here than in most of the USA - like installing electrical service
panels SIDEWAYS more often than upright - particularly when replacing
old fuse panels. (Just had mine replaced last week - and installing it
"upright" would have involved some major rework and/or a bunch of
junction boxes to extend the wiring to reach the bottom of the panel,
while mounting it sideways - with the main disconnect on the left,
didn't require relocating a single wire other than the feed from the
meter base (which was also replaced) needing to be raised 4 inches.

[J...@spamblocked.com]

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:18:22 -0400, FrozenNorth
<frozenn...@gmale.com> wrote:

>On 2015-10-12 11:06 AM, milli...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Hi.
>>

>There is probably no problem doing that, but just in case, use elbows
>with a cleanout.

There is no such thing as an elbow with a cleanout.

But there are tees, which can be used as an elbow and the third opening
can become the cleanout with another fitting made to be a cleanout.

[FrozenNorth]

I am not a plumber, the tee was just an idea if he was cheating the
corner, didn't all have to be one piece.

[Uncle Monster]

I've seen elbows with cleanouts. The technical term is "90 degree elbo with a low heel inlet" with a plug in the low heel inlet and there is also a "long sweep wye or tee" with a cover at the short end. I've also seen some traps with a cleanout at the bottom. ^_^

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-P303-420-4-PVC-DWV-90-Elbow-w-2-Low-Heel-Inlet

http://tinyurl.com/owhr4yx

http://www.homedepot.com/p/NIBCO-3-in-ABS-DWV-Hub-x-Hub-x-Hub-Long-Sweep-Sanitary-Tee-C5812LHD3/100342451

http://tinyurl.com/p2xluj8

[8~{} Uncle Pipe Monster

[trader_4]

The long sweep elbows offer less resistance to flow. If you're
plumbing up a vent system for a furnace for example, where you're
only allowed a certain number of feet and turns to keep within the
max resistance limit, the long sweep offer less resistance. Same
thing with a water or waste pipe, I'd always use a long if it would
work. But sometimes other factors come into play. IDK what code
might say.

[bob_villa]

Sewer, soil, or septic...but certainly not sanitary! ʘل͟ʘ

[dpb]

On 10/12/2015 2:12 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:05:18 -0500, dpb<no...@non.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/12/2015 10:43 AM, Oren wrote:
>>> On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:18:22 -0400, FrozenNorth
>>> <frozenn...@gmale.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2015-10-12 11:06 AM, milli...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> Hi.
>>>>> I'm replacing the cast iron 4" sanitary lines to my two bathrooms with PVC. They drop vertically from each bathroom and turn 90degrees to horizontal in the basement. This turn is via existing long turn/long sweep elbows.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there any problem if I switch these to short turn 90 deg elbows? I'd like to regain the headroom in the basement and keep these pipes within the ceiling joist level, instead of having these stick out below the (future) finished ceiling level in the basement. I can't find anything in the plumbing codes on this. All advice appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>> There is probably no problem doing that, but just in case, use elbows
>>>> with a cleanout.
>>>
>>> ... I'd ensure to maintain proper pitch (slope) in the pipe
>>
>> And _I_ would likely not remove the sweeps, either...an inch or two of
>> head room isn't worth the possible hassle imo.
> I'd remove the "sweeps" and go with the generally accepted and

> commonly used fittings made and sold expressly for the application. ...

So who do you think those are, specifically?

On reflection, I'd probably convert from an ell of either variety to a
sanitary tee and install a plug on the backside for the cleanout access.
I'd suppose that's probably what you meant...

--

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

I meant exactly what I said. I'd use the standard 4"90 degree short
radius Ells that are used in virtually every home here - and use a
sanitary "T" as you noted in at least one location for a cleenout. No
use putting a cleanout up between the floor joista where you are
putting in a finished ceiling though. The cleanout is at floor level
where the vertical enters the slab, or at sewer lwvel where the
horizontal exits through the foundation to the septic or municipal
sanitary sewer system.

[Rick]

"dpb" <no...@non.net> wrote in message news:mvoen3$4r3$1...@dont-email.me...

Plumbing code violation...sanitary tees can't be installed "on their back"
(side opening in vertical position) unless it's in a dry vent.
>

[dpb]

On 10/17/2015 10:10 AM, Rick wrote:
...

> Plumbing code violation...sanitary tees can't be installed "on their
> back" (side opening in vertical position) unless it's in a dry vent.

Seems strange; seen it quite often in (afaik inspected) installations...

--