Pella door leaks

[Greg Rodenhiser]

I have a 4 year old house where the back door (Pella steel) leaks on the bottom corners. I can see the water on the wooden rail on the threshold and seems to only occur on the two corners vs the middle. The weather stripping is wet on the bottom half of the door where the door compresses into it when closed and the corner pad is completely soaked. Doing a visual inspection the seal when the door is closes seems tight (except the top corner on the knob side shows some light). Can you give any advice on what to check/try?

[Greg Rodenhiser]

On Friday, February 14, 2014 3:11:08 PM UTC-5, Greg Rodenhiser wrote:
> I have a 4 year old house where the back door (Pella steel) leaks on the bottom corners. I can see the water on the wooden rail on the threshold and seems to only occur on the two corners vs the middle. The weather stripping is wet on the bottom half of the door where the door compresses into it when closed and the corner pad is completely soaked. Doing a visual inspection the seal when the door is closes seems tight (except the top corner on the knob side shows some light). Can you give any advice on what to check/try?

Attempting some pictures
https://plus.google.com/u/0/115375182336403760518/posts
https://plus.google.com/u/0/115375182336403760518/posts
https://plus.google.com/u/0/115375182336403760518/posts

[CRNG]

On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 12:17:29 -0800 (PST), Greg Rodenhiser
<greg.ro...@gmail.com> wrote in
<f0861494-4836-45b7...@googlegroups.com>

>On Friday, February 14, 2014 3:11:08 PM UTC-5, Greg Rodenhiser wrote:
>> I have a 4 year old house where the back door (Pella steel) leaks on the bottom corners. I can see the water on the wooden rail on the threshold and seems to only occur on the two corners vs the middle. The weather stripping is wet on the bottom half of the door where the door compresses into it when closed and the corner pad is completely soaked. Doing a visual inspection the seal when the door is closes seems tight (except the top corner on the knob side shows some light). Can you give any advice on what to check/try?
>
>Attempting some pictures
>https://plus.google.com/u/0/115375182336403760518/posts

Sorry I can't offer any suggestions, but it does look like it will be
a growing problem.
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[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
My take on this is not a local leak(door/seal). Look under threshold
around door frame to track down where water is coming. Do you have
overhang(door sheltered from element above) or door opens into facing
outside directly. Hope it's not bigger problem.

[Greg Rodenhiser]

The door opens to the outside directly. The only reason I'm thinking a local leak is the wetness seems to start between the door and frame (like I said the weather stripping is wet where the door compresses against it) about halfway down and onto the threshold sides.

[Oren]

On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 12:17:29 -0800 (PST), Greg Rodenhiser

<greg.ro...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Attempting some pictures
>https://plus.google.com/u/0/115375182336403760518/posts
>https://plus.google.com/u/0/115375182336403760518/posts
>https://plus.google.com/u/0/115375182336403760518/posts

Very small photos. At 300% I'm still not able to see the areas well.
Take 3 photos at higher resolutions at the problem location and post
them. I'd only be guessing, without seeing better close-ups in the
problem area.

[Greg Rodenhiser]

Okay think I added the high res ones
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/115375182336403760518/albums/5980363512495148001

[Oren]

On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 13:43:34 -0700, Tony Hwang <drag...@shaw.ca>
wrote:

>My take on this is not a local leak(door/seal). Look under threshold
>around door frame to track down where water is coming. Do you have
>overhang(door sheltered from element above) or door opens into facing
>outside directly. Hope it's not bigger problem.

The outside top trim may not be caulked. Water could enter from above
and travel down the door jamb. I would prefer better photos.

OP - check the exterior door trim casing and see if caulk has been
applied where the trim meets the exterior wall, has dried out, pulled
/ cracked away? Let us know.

[Greg Rodenhiser]

Not sure if it makes a difference but exterior siding is all vinyl..

[Oren]

On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 13:07:12 -0800 (PST), Greg Rodenhiser
<greg.ro...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Okay think I added the high res ones
>https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/115375182336403760518/albums/5980363512495148001

A few things to check:

1) Examine the exterior door casing top and sides. Ensure they are
caulked with an exterior acrylic caulk.

2) Pull the metal threshold for inspection. The threshold should also
be caulked underneath - width of the threshold along the door jamb and
a two beads the width of the door. (~1/2" size beads)

Looks like: (sorta)

]|==================|[

3) Inspect the interior top trim casing - looks like there could
possibly be water intrusion at the height, can't really tell. If so,
is it may be possible the door install was not flashed properly with
"moist wrap".

This needs a very close inspection all around. The water will
eventually cause harm to your wood flooring. Allow wind drafts and
blowing rain to get inside.

Are you handy? Maybe pull the interior door trim casing too and have a
look behind it.

Let us know what you find, please.

[Oren]

On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 13:15:47 -0800 (PST), Greg Rodenhiser
<greg.ro...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>> OP - check the exterior door trim casing and see if caulk has been
>>
>> applied where the trim meets the exterior wall, has dried out, pulled
>>
>> / cracked away? Let us know.
>
>Not sure if it makes a difference but exterior siding is all vinyl..

The difference is if the rough opening was properly wrapped with
"moist wrap" barrier, before the door was installed.

This is an example of a window. Concept is the same practice.

<http://www.albertsroofing.com/HagertyJob%20(24).JPG>

[hrho...@sbcglobal.net]

It looks like the rubber gasket is missing from the floor side, there is a track but no upward facing bubber gasket that normally would be pressing against the bottom fo the door. A picture of the whole setup, and then more zeroing in on the problem area would be much better than a few apparently random photos.

[Greg Rodenhiser]

On Friday, February 14, 2014 4:47:54 PM UTC-5, hrho...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
> It looks like the rubber gasket is missing from the floor side, there is a track but no upward facing bubber gasket that normally would be pressing against the bottom fo the door. A picture of the whole setup, and then more zeroing in on the problem area would be much better than a few apparently random photos.

I'll work on taking better pictures, these were just a few random ones I snapped this morning. As I mentioned, the air gap in the picture I showed does allow a very small amount of blowing snow in during windy storms this winter.... My thinking was this gap was allowing water to run down the door frame and collect at the bottom. This is where I feel moisture (the kerf stripping is wet and that entire corner pad is wet. My very uneducated guess is water run down the verticle sides and collects at the bottom. Weirdly the top half of the vertical kerf stripping is completely dry. I'll work on getting better pictures this weekend. I'm handy with some things, but for water intrusion type issues, I'd rather bring in someone who knows way more than I do.

[Oren]

On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 13:47:42 -0800, Oren <Or...@127.0.0.1> wrote:

>The difference is if the rough opening was properly wrapped with
>"moist wrap" barrier, before the door was installed.
>
>This is an example of a window. Concept is the same practice.
>
><http://www.albertsroofing.com/HagertyJob%20(24).JPG>

BTW, Can anyone here spot the faults in the application of the RO
moisture wrap around the window?

When I later zoomed in at 400% it became apparent to me.

Discuss.

[dadiOH]

"Greg Rodenhiser" <greg.ro...@gmail.com> wrote in

message
news:b3e6b4d0-3435-4437...@googlegroups.com

Is all this correct?

1.The door swings out

2. The threshold is in two parts...
a) ribbed aluminum
b) wood which is higher than and butts on the edge of the aluminum

3. The doorway is more or less in line with the walls of the house; i.e.,
there is no porch or appreciable overhang over the doorway.

Questions:

1. does the aluminum threshold slope well outward?

2. what is the brown, rectalinear object low on the jamb in photo #3?
__________________________

Looking at the photos, these are my observations...

1.The miter between top and hinge side casing is open; water can enter
there.

In the same photo I can't tell if the door is fully closed or not; if it is,
there is a considerable space between it and the hinge jamb and water could
easily enter there. If that gap exists, you should install a stop; i.e., a
thin, narrow strip of wood that touches the door when the door is closed; it
should be on both side jambs, top one as well. One can buy smallish, self
adhesive weather stripping to attach to the edge of the stop where it
touches the door. This is the sort of weather strip I am talking about,
stops need to be about 1/2" thick or more...
http://www.amazon.com/Frost-King-V25W-Weather-Strip-Inch-by1/dp/B000B4N3OA

2. Water can enter at the edge between the aluminum and wood threshold. It
would be far better if the Al threshold were wider and incorporated the
higher part in it. I don't have tons of door experience but that's the way
all my outswing door thresholds are.

Even if the Al threshold were wider, water can - and does - enter where it
meets the jambs. That's because the Al thresholds generally have a piece of
wood under them and the jambs are stapled to it. That means the edge of the
Al butts against the wood jamb, the jamb extends below the Al and water runs
into that joint. Built like that, they will always fail. The same is true
of your wood threshold abutting the aluminum one.

IMO, most of your water is from these two places. The condensation on the
door isn't helping either...I'm guessing that the staining and rust around
the wood threshold fasteners are mostly attributable to that. If you wind
up keeping the wood part, change the fasteners to bronze, brass or stainless
steel.
______________________

The water is eventually going to rot both the wood jambs and the wood
threshold against which the door closes. I've had to repair several rotted
jambs. What I did was...

1. Dig out all the rot all the way back to whatever they are fastened to (in
my case, that was concrete block)

2. Fill the dug out area with Bondo, sand and paint.

3. Assure that there was about 1/4" gap between bottom of jamb and
threshold, fill that gap with a good caulk.
_______________________

Your *BEST* fix is to build/have built an extension to the house extending
out 4' or so; sort of a mini-porch.

Your next best is to replace the Al & wood thresholds with a wider one of Al
which incorporates the higher portion. If you do that you need to make sure
the entire doorway is properly wrapped as per Oren's post...if there is ANY
way for water to enter, it will.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

[LdB]

On 2/14/2014 2:11 PM, Greg Rodenhiser wrote:
> I have a 4 year old house where the back door (Pella steel) leaks on the bottom corners.
I can see the water on the wooden rail on the threshold and seems to
only occur on the two corners

Two of my neighbors and I had the same problem. We all built our
houses over the space of several years. All of our steel doors leaked
to some degree.

This was more evident with us because of the length of time we were
living in the houses and the time the floors were finished. (Years)

Take a good look at the door where the threshold meets the door frame.
I don't believe it is possible to completely seal that area from
water leakage. Rain will hit the door and run down into the corners.
The water then wicks in under the corner of the door frame and
probably under the door itself.

We all tried a number of ways to stop the leakage but the only thing
that worked was to install storm doors. That keeps the inside door
dry. No more leakage.

I'll bet that many of you with this type of door have the same leakage
problem but don't realize it because the water is leaking in under the
finished floor and is not visible from above.

After a heavy rain has wet the outside of the door for a while probe
around the corners of the threshold where it meets the floor. Don't be
surprised if the sub floor is soft and wet.

LdB

[Greg Rodenhiser]

On Friday, February 14, 2014 3:11:08 PM UTC-5, Greg Rodenhiser wrote:

> I have a 4 year old house where the back door (Pella steel) leaks on the bottom corners. I can see the water on the wooden rail on the threshold and seems to only occur on the two corners vs the middle. The weather stripping is wet on the bottom half of the door where the door compresses into it when closed and the corner pad is completely soaked. Doing a visual inspection the seal when the door is closes seems tight (except the top corner on the knob side shows some light). Can you give any advice on what to check/try?

The door swings in and the threshold is plastic. I've taken a few more pictures:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/115375182336403760518/albums/5981099290487074449

This shows the install from inside and outside. Should I be able to see the rail like that from the outside? I have the exact same door on my walk out basement, its also on the same side of the house. It has the same symptoms. Since the basement is unfinished I'm able to get a pretty good view between the door frame and house frame. Everything is dry and see no evidence water ever got in. I can also look under the door threshold of the door in the pictures (from the basement, no sign of water getting down there either).

My thoughts are:

1. door needs better stripping at the bottom
2. bad design rip out and replace
3. get a storm door and hope that eliminates the issue

[Oren]

On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 13:00:00 -0800 (PST), Greg Rodenhiser
<greg.ro...@gmail.com> wrote:

>The door swings in and the threshold is plastic. I've taken a few more pictures:
>
>https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/115375182336403760518/albums/5981099290487074449
>
>This shows the install from inside and outside. Should I be able to see the rail like that from the outside? I have the exact same door on my walk out basement, its also on the same side of the house. It has the same symptoms. Since the basement is unfinished I'm able to get a pretty good view between the door frame and house frame. Everything is dry and see no evidence water ever got in. I can also look under the door threshold of the door in the pictures (from the basement, no sign of water getting down there either).
>
>My thoughts are:
>
>1. door needs better stripping at the bottom
>2. bad design rip out and replace
>3. get a storm door and hope that eliminates the issue

I'm not sure what you are calling the "rail". Is it ribbed plastic of
the wood piece under the door? Cold can make the plastic flex.

It was mentioned by another, about the separation of the trim - top
right corner outside. I'd stick a small (wire) probe in the opening
and see how deep it is. Driving rain may be entering there. so it
needs to be caulked with a paintable exterior acrylic caulk.

The screws on the wood piece under the door can be adjusted up or down
for a tighter seal.

[Greg Rodenhiser]

The trim corner referenced (I believe in the same picture showing the air/light gap is on the inside of the house... The outside trim is all vinyl and appears tight. The rail I'm mentioning is the adjustable wood rail of the threshold that sits under the door...

[Vic Smith]

On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 14:16:30 -0800 (PST), Greg Rodenhiser
<greg.ro...@gmail.com> wrote:

>The trim corner referenced (I believe in the same picture showing the air/light gap is on the inside of the house... The outside trim is all vinyl and appears tight. The rail I'm mentioning is the adjustable wood rail of the threshold that sits under the door...

I've always had storm doors. Never had entry doors exposed to
rain/snow.
I suggest you install storm doors.

[hrho...@sbcglobal.net]

Does the external visible portion of the door sill slope downward away from the house so that melting snow/ice will drain away from the door? The close-up of what I guess is the door sill does not look like the door sill shown in the series of external photos.

[Greg Rodenhiser]

Yes the external sill slopes downward... I'm going to try adjusting the wooden portion under the door tomorrow, what's the term for that part?

[Oren]

On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 17:55:29 -0800 (PST), Greg Rodenhiser
<greg.ro...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Yes the external sill slopes downward... I'm going to try adjusting the wooden portion under the door tomorrow, what's the term for that part?

Adjustable wooden threshold.

<http://bscconstruction.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/11-11-09-noon-018.jpg>

[Tekkie®]

Greg Rodenhiser posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

>
> I have a 4 year old house where the back door (Pella steel) leaks on the bottom corners. I can see the water on the wooden rail on the threshold and seems to only occur on the two corners vs the middle. The weather stripping is wet on the bottom half of the door where the door compresses into it when closed and the corner pad is completely soaked. Doing a visual inspection the seal when the door is closes seems tight (except the top corner on
the knob side shows some light). Can you give any advice on what to check/try?

Call Pella.

--
Tekkie