Adding UPS to light circuit

[JIMMIE]

My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less than 100 watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my light circuits to the UPS during emergencies like this ice storm that is coming up. Not worried about heat or the fridge, I have gas heater backup and not enough in the fridge to worry about. Are there approved ways of connecting in the UPS that does not involve adding a transfer switch. I was thinking about doing this with outlets and plugs so I could unplug the light circuit and plug it into the UPS.

Jimmie

[Metspitzer]

That is an interesting question. What kind of UPS are you talking
about? The ones for computers only last for around an hour.

[Unquestionably Confused]

Jimmie, if you're using the UPS to insert 120V into that lighting
circuit you MUST have a transfer switch or some sort of lockout
otherwise there is no way you can insure that you're not backfeeding the
grid. Then, too, if you're back feeding the grid with that UPS, you can
expect it to run for about 1 millisecond before total discharge <g>

If you study just how a manual transfer switch (Reliant, etc) works and
interfaces with your circuit breaker panel, you can probably - if you're
really handy and adventuresome - cobble up a one or two circuit
transfer switch. Just remember you want to break a connection before
making a connection.

[Metspitzer]

Don't you think he could make a cord and plug disconnect for one
circuit at a time?

Oliver Sungsnatch

[Caulki...@work.com]

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 23:28:12 -0500, Metspitzer <Kilo...@charter.net>
wrote:

>>If you study just how a manual transfer switch (Reliant, etc) works and
>>interfaces with your circuit breaker panel, you can probably - if you're
>>really handy and adventuresome - cobble up a one or two circuit
>>transfer switch. Just remember you want to break a connection before
>>making a connection.
>>
>Don't you think he could make a cord and plug disconnect for one
>circuit at a time?
>
>Oliver Sungsnatch

This seems like a complicated and costly project., and wont provide
lighting for much over an hour.
Why not just get some of those emergency lights that are used in
commercial buildings. They have batteries and turn on when the power
goes out.

Myself, I use an even easier and cheaper method. I have several LED
flashlights handy, plus some spare batteries. I also have a LED work
light that is rechargable, and includes a car charger, so I can plug it
in the car cig lighter if needed. That light is bright enough, I have
donr home repair at night, in a building without electricity. also
makes a good camping light, and it will work for about 6 to 8 hours on a
charge. The flashlights I bought at walmart, have about 20 LEDs, and
cost about $8. Two AA batteries will last more than 24 hours.

[tra...@optonline.net]

And have it comply with code? No.

He could use one of the panel lockout kits together with
an inlet. That's the cheapest, simplest way to do it, IMO.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 19:43:37 -0800 (PST), JIMMIE
<JIMMIE...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Buy a proper hardwired UPS and the transfer is automatic.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 22:51:03 -0500, Metspitzer <Kilo...@charter.net>
wrote:

The CONSUMER units for computers only last about an hout. With
Extended Battery Packs they can last quite a bit longer, and the old
Best Power had a system that had a gas or deisel powered DC generator
that started when the batteries got low. They also made a unit for
emergency lighting that used the regular lighting system for emergency
lighting (roughly 1 light in 4 on the cabinet mounted UPS system)

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 22:20:50 -0600, Unquestionably Confused
<puzz...@ameritech.net> wrote:

BS - a UPS is, by definition, an Transfer Switch BUT, the lighting
circuit MUST be connected through the UPS at all times. Runs on AC
Line power when available, and SWWITCHES to battery when required.

[Stormin Mormon]

>>> My house lighting is all LED total wattage with
all on is less than 100 watts. What I want to do is
to be able to connect my light circuits to the UPS
during emergencies like this ice storm that is
coming up. Not worried about heat or the fridge, I
have gas heater backup and not enough in the fridge
to worry about. Are there approved ways of connecting
in the UPS that does not involve adding a transfer
switch. I was thinking about doing this with outlets
and plugs so I could unplug the light circuit and plug
it into the UPS.
>>
>> Jimmie

I'm not there to see it, but I'd guess it is possible
to run the circuit to a power socket, and run the lights
to a plug. You could unplug the lights, and put them
into he socket on the UPS.

Of course, you can always run electric cords, and use
portable table or floor lamps.

I agree, don't like to be in the dark. I've got a couple
fuel lamps (wick or propane mantle) for power cuts. Which
power cuts are usually in winter when it's cold.



--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 2/12/2014 7:18 AM, Caulki...@work.com wrote:
> This seems like a complicated and costly project., and wont provide
> lighting for much over an hour.
> Why not just get some of those emergency lights that are used in
> commercial buildings. They have batteries and turn on when the power
> goes out.
>
> Myself, I use an even easier and cheaper method. I have several LED
> flashlights handy, plus some spare batteries. I also have a LED work
> light that is rechargable, and includes a car charger, so I can plug it
> in the car cig lighter if needed. That light is bright enough, I have
> donr home repair at night, in a building without electricity. also
> makes a good camping light, and it will work for about 6 to 8 hours on a
> charge. The flashlights I bought at walmart, have about 20 LEDs, and
> cost about $8. Two AA batteries will last more than 24 hours.

Most UPS, like you say, good for about an hour.
The OP has a great idea, to provide home lighting
with convenience. However, I think you make sense,
that during power cuts it's a good idea to change
to different types of lighting.

The business lights for power cuts are typically
half hour or 45 minute rated. Long enough to get
people out, but not long enough to continue with
operating the business. In theory, one could wire
in a higher capacity battery.

[Stormin Mormon]

I like your concept. I would also like to keep
my own lights on during power cuts. My best
advice is to invest in a couple flashlights and
wick lamps and some bottles of ultra pure.
It will not be as convenient, but it will be
dependable and provide a bit of heat.

I've heard of people stringing Christmas lights
around the house, run off a UPS or battery and
inverter. provides a bit of light for walking
around.

[philo]

That's weird, my UPS system will power my laptop for about a year or so.


https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/1069827_774150599278978_1786645054_n.jpg

[philo]

Finally someone who knows about Best Power.

I still have one. I worked for a company that sold the units and even
visited the company to attend their training school.

Between the ferroresonant circuit and the hysteresis loop charging,
those things could not be beat.

[Julie Bove]

<Caulki...@work.com> wrote in message
news:itomf9p7kvg4r9e15...@4ax.com...

I have assorted battery operated lamps in addition to flashlights. They
were a necessity for a while when we had electrical problems that I couldn't
address at the time. All that has been fixed now so we don't need them on a
regular basis but they are great when the power goes out!

[RobertMacy]

Great idean! I think hospitals have dedicated outlets indicating 'normal'
vs 'ups'. Our electronic lab used to have clearly labeled outlets side by
side, like four instead of two, with the right half shown as a color
difference indicating the supply was from a UPS. Purpose was for powering
PC's and instrumentation performing life tests, to prevent a lifetest
dataset being ruined by an outage.

When I worked in the Security Industry, the UPS backup was specced to last
four hours minimum, industry standard at the time. You have NO idea how
difficult it is to power 120W for four hours without wanting to go to an
automobile battery, which wasn't allowed, but I did use a vehicle battery
on our internal backup system to power the PBS phones for the company.

You could use two battery packs, a generator to charge one while using the
other, and pretty much run for days. However, don't know how many UPS
systems allow you 'hot insertion' of a battery pack.

Another option of simple lighting, is to get those security lights that
turn on when power goes off. Great indicator of whether the power went
off, or on, and they're self-contained.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 7:50:08 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> >>> My house lighting is all LED total wattage with
>
> all on is less than 100 watts. What I want to do is
>
> to be able to connect my light circuits to the UPS
>
> during emergencies like this ice storm that is
>
> coming up. Not worried about heat or the fridge, I
>
> have gas heater backup and not enough in the fridge
>
> to worry about. Are there approved ways of connecting
>
> in the UPS that does not involve adding a transfer
>
> switch. I was thinking about doing this with outlets
>
> and plugs so I could unplug the light circuit and plug
>
> it into the UPS.
>
> >>
>
> >> Jimmie
>
>
>
> I'm not there to see it, but I'd guess it is possible
>
> to run the circuit to a power socket,

If by circuit to a power socket you mean running a circuit from
the UPS to a receptacle in the house, yes he can do that provided it
complies with all the pertinent sections of the NEC. But I
would suspect his first problem is that he's talking about
a typical UPS for use with say a PC. It's not rated to be
hardwired into anything.

> and run the lights
>
> to a plug. You could unplug the lights, and put them
>
> into he socket on the UPS.
>

You can't take existing light circuits in the house and put a cord
on the end of them..

>
> Of course, you can always run electric cords, and use
>
> portable table or floor lamps.
>

So far, that or a panel lockout kit or transfer switch
togther with an inlet are the only code compliant methods
I see. And as we all seem to agree, given the limited
duration of a typical UPS, probably not worth the trouble.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 8:35:50 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:43:37 -0700, JIMMIE <JIMMIE...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less than 100
>
> > watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my light circuits to
>
> > the UPS during emergencies like this ice storm that is coming up. Not
>
> > worried about heat or the fridge, I have gas heater backup and not
>
> > enough in the fridge to worry about. Are there approved ways of
>
> > connecting in the UPS that does not involve adding a transfer switch. I
>
> > was thinking about doing this with outlets and plugs so I could unplug
>
> > the light circuit and plug it into the UPS.
>
> >
>
> > Jimmie
>
>
>
> Great idean!

I don't think what he's stated is a great idea.

"I was thinking about doing this with outlets and plugs so I could unplug
the light circuit and plug it into the UPS."

That sounds to me like he's not talking about plugging a couple
floor lamps into the UPS. If that's what he was doing, he
wouldn't be here. It sounds to me like he wants to take
existing light circuits in the house and put a plug on them
so he could plug that circuit into the UPS. And that sure
isn't kosher.

I think hospitals have dedicated outlets indicating 'normal'
>
> vs 'ups'. Our electronic lab used to have clearly labeled outlets side by
>
> side, like four instead of two, with the right half shown as a color
>
> difference indicating the supply was from a UPS. Purpose was for powering
>
> PC's and instrumentation performing life tests, to prevent a lifetest
>
> dataset being ruined by an outage.
>
>

Yes, he could do that, provided it all complies with code.
I suspect the first problem is that it sounds like he already
has a garden variety UPS for use with a PC, etc and they
have outlets, ie they aren't rated or designed to be hardwired.

[Lab Lover]

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 22:20:50 -0600, Unquestionably Confused
<puzz...@ameritech.net> wrote:

I wonder why the OP has not revisited his thread?

A UPS, by definition is an isolated supply. In other words, it is constantly
charging it's battery and the load is always running from AC power which is
created by inverting the DC. When the house current is disconnected, the load
continues to operate without interruption (hence the "U" in UPS).

I seriously doubt the total power consumed by the OP's whole house LED lighting
is less than 100 watts. There is a fair amount of power wasted and dissipated
as heat in the typical power supplies used for LED lighting. However, he could
have a very small house.

Regardless, if the OP were to simply isolate the circuits which power the LEDs
and have nothing else on those circuits, he could easily connect those circuits
to the UPS on a permanent basis. A good 1500 - 2000 W UPS would provide
reasonable protection for the LED power supply components and a fairly decent
run time during a blackout.

Obviously, the above requires a reasonable understanding of residential wiring,
NEC and local codes in order to accomplish this in a safe manner.

[tra...@optonline.net]

True, but it doesn't have to be used that way. He could have a
typical UPS that you'd use for say a PC, leave it plugged in
and only connect it manually to lights when the power goes out.
If he does that by plugging in some floor lamps, that's cool.
But it sounded like he wants to put plugs on the end of his
existing light circuits in the house, which isn't kosher.

>
> I seriously doubt the total power consumed by the OP's whole house LED lighting
>
> is less than 100 watts.

I doubt he intends to power every LED light when the power is
out, just some of them.

There is a fair amount of power wasted and dissipated
>
> as heat in the typical power supplies used for LED lighting.

AFAIK, all that is included in the rating of the LED light.
If you get a 9W, which is about equal to a 100W incandescent,
it just uses 9Watts, no?

However, he could
>
> have a very small house.
>
>
>
> Regardless, if the OP were to simply isolate the circuits which power the LEDs
>
> and have nothing else on those circuits, he could easily connect those circuits
>
> to the UPS on a permanent basis. A good 1500 - 2000 W UPS would provide
>
> reasonable protection for the LED power supply components and a fairly decent
>
> run time during a blackout.
>
>
>
> Obviously, the above requires a reasonable understanding of residential wiring,
>
> NEC and local codes in order to accomplish this in a safe manner.

Yes, I agree. But from what he's written, I think the intention
is to use a basic UPS that he already has and I doubt it's designed
for being hardwired in.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 2/12/2014 8:23 AM, Julie Bove wrote:
>
>
> I have assorted battery operated lamps in addition to flashlights. They
> were a necessity for a while when we had electrical problems that I
> couldn't address at the time. All that has been fixed now so we don't
> need them on a regular basis but they are great when the power goes out!

I've learned to store most of my lights with
the batteries removed. Batteries tend to leak
and destroy any kind of device.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 2/12/2014 8:35 AM, RobertMacy wrote:
>
> When I worked in the Security Industry, the UPS backup was specced to
> last four hours minimum, industry standard at the time. You have NO idea
> how difficult it is to power 120W for four hours without wanting to go
> to an automobile battery, which wasn't allowed, but I did use a vehicle
> battery on our internal backup system to power the PBS phones for the
> company.
>
> You could use two battery packs, a generator to charge one while using
> the other, and pretty much run for days. However, don't know how many
> UPS systems allow you 'hot insertion' of a battery pack.
>
> Another option of simple lighting, is to get those security lights that
> turn on when power goes off. Great indicator of whether the power went
> off, or on, and they're self-contained.
>

Other than golf cart or marine trolling batteries,
what were effective for power storage?

Wonder if it's possible to use a generator and car
battery charger (off the 120 VAC generator socket)
to charge up the UPS batter while the UPS is still
powering lights?

I think the theatre and business power failure
lights can be good. Be nicer if you could wire the
internal battery to a big golf cart battery.

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per RobertMacy:

> without wanting to go to an
>automobile battery, which wasn't allowed,

Safety?
--
Pete Cresswell

[Sherlock.Homes]

"JIMMIE" <JIMMIE...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1ee0c8e6-2b51-4932...@googlegroups.com...

My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less than 100
watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my light circuits to the
UPS during emergencies like this ice storm that is coming up. Not worried
about heat or the fridge, I have gas heater backup and not enough in the
fridge to worry about. Are there approved ways of connecting in the UPS that
does not involve adding a transfer switch.

__________________________________________________________________________

Nope - no approved ways I know of. Lots of jury-rigged possibilities
though. The only way to evade the NEC on this is to use low voltage power.
Install 12VDC LED lights throughout the house on a dedicated circuit that's
always powered by a large (costly) deep discharge battery on a constant
charging circuit. If you use a car battery you'll severely shorten its life
if you deeply discharge it more than a few times.

If these are 110VAC fixtures then there's very little hope of doing what you
want to do and having it approved by an inspector. But it is an
interesting idea and probably will be the way things are done 50 years from
now.

SH

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:32:43 AM UTC-5, Sherlock.Homes wrote:
> "JIMMIE" <JIMMIE...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1ee0c8e6-2b51-4932...@googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less than 100
>
> watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my light circuits to the
>
> UPS during emergencies like this ice storm that is coming up. Not worried
>
> about heat or the fridge, I have gas heater backup and not enough in the
>
> fridge to worry about. Are there approved ways of connecting in the UPS that
>
> does not involve adding a transfer switch.
>
> __________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> Nope - no approved ways I know of.

If he's willing to buy the right UPS, of course it can
be done. From a practical standpoint, I think he wants
to use a typical UPS that's cord/plug connected and that
you plug loads into. And I agree, no code compliant
way to take a house light circuit and put it into that.

Lots of jury-rigged possibilities
>
> though. The only way to evade the NEC on this is to use low voltage power.

NEC covers that too.

>
> Install 12VDC LED lights throughout the house on a dedicated circuit that's
>
> always powered by a large (costly) deep discharge battery on a constant
>
> charging circuit. If you use a car battery you'll severely shorten its life
>
> if you deeply discharge it more than a few times.
>
>

NEC covers that too.

[HerHusband]

Jimmie,

It is highly unlikely that your lights are on circuits by themselves.
They probably share circuits with clocks, battery chargers, TV's,
computers, and other devices that draw power also. Your total load is
probably much higher than 100 watts, even if you don't factor in your
major appliances.

However, even if your total load is below 100 watts, you would need to
isolate those circuits from your main electrical panel so you could power
them from a UPS. This would require opening up your breaker panel,
installing a new panel for the supported circuits, and supply power from
the UPS. Essentially, you would have to follow all the same rules as if
you were powering from a backup generator. This is a lot of work and
expense just to power your lights during a power outage.

Unless you're planning to go off the grid or something, power outages are
usually rare events. It's better to just have emergency lighting for the
few occasions the power goes out.

I have a couple of these LED power failure lights:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/PowerFailureLight

They simply plug into a wall outlet so they are always fully charged. If
the power goes out, they come on automatically so we can safely move
around the house after things go dark. If needed, they can be unplugged
from the wall and carried around like a flashlight. They supposedly
provide light over 8 hours, but I've never left them on that long to know
if that is accurate.

If the power goes out for more than few minutes, the power failure lights
provide light so that I can get my LED lantern:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/LEDLantern

This is a great little lantern that is rated for 40-90 hours of light
depending on the brightness level. I've never left ours on more than a
few hours, but it works well.

Usually, when the power goes out we light some candles and turn off the
bright LED lights. Build a fire in the woodstove to stay warm, turn on a
small battery powered radio, open a bottle of wine, and it becomes a
romantic evening with the wife. :) We actually look forward to power
outages. :)

In the last 20+ years, we have only had a couple extended outages that
lasted more than a few hours. Both were in the middle of winter, so we
bagged up the food in our refrigerator and put it outside where it was
already cold. If you have raccoons or other critters, you might want to
use a cooler or something you could tie shut. It worked well to keep our
food safe despite an outage that lasted more than a day.

I do have a small Cyberpower UPS for my computer:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/mgxkhyx

If the power goes out I can run my computer and monitor about an hour
before I have to shut down. That's long enough to cover the vast majority
of short outages we do have. It's nice not to lose everything I'm working
on if the power blips off for 2 minutes.

Hope this helps!

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

[Stormin Mormon]

On 2/12/2014 8:03 AM, philo wrote:
>
> That's weird, my UPS system will power my laptop for about a year or so.
>
>
> https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/1069827_774150599278978_1786645054_n.jpg
>

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/tubes.jpg

They keep trying to upgrade my processor.

And your UPS would run this for at least TWO years.
http://www.wpclipart.com/computer/PCs/eniac_vacuum_tubes.png

[philo]

On 02/12/2014 10:13 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> On 2/12/2014 8:03 AM, philo wrote:
>
> They keep trying to upgrade my processor.
>
> And your UPS would run this for at least TWO years.
> http://www.wpclipart.com/computer/PCs/eniac_vacuum_tubes.png
>

My UPS would run a vacuum tube computer for zero seconds!

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:56:15 AM UTC-5, HerHusband wrote:
> Jimmie,
>
>
>
> > My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less than
>
> > 100 watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my light
>
> > circuits to the UPS during emergencies like this ice storm that is
>
> > coming up. Not worried about heat or the fridge, I have gas heater
>
> > backup and not enough in the fridge to worry about. Are there approved
>
> > ways of connecting in the UPS that does not involve adding a transfer
>
> > switch. I was thinking about doing this with outlets and plugs so I
>
> > could unplug the light circuit and plug it into the UPS.
>
>
>
> It is highly unlikely that your lights are on circuits by themselves.
>
> They probably share circuits with clocks, battery chargers, TV's,
>
> computers, and other devices that draw power also. Your total load is
>
> probably much higher than 100 watts, even if you don't factor in your
>
> major appliances.
>
>

That's a good point. But he could unplug or not turn on those
other devices during a power failure. However it would probably be
easy to miss something and have it drain the UPS.

>
> However, even if your total load is below 100 watts, you would need to
>
> isolate those circuits from your main electrical panel so you could power
>
> them from a UPS. This would require opening up your breaker panel,
>
> installing a new panel for the supported circuits, and supply power from
>
> the UPS.

That's one way to do it. But for most newer panels there are
lockout kits avaiable so you don't need a separate panel. It's
just a slide that prevents the main breaker and a double pole
breaker in the first slot from being on at the same time.
The alternate power source gets connected to that breaker.
Then you can choose what to power by using the regular
breakers.

Essentially, you would have to follow all the same rules as if
>
> you were powering from a backup generator.

Agree.

This is a lot of work and
>
> expense just to power your lights during a power outage.
>
>

Agree. If I was going to that much work, I'd want to power
more than just some lights. For some lights, you could just
plug some extension cords and floor lamps into the UPS, plus
a couple LED lanterns, I would think.

>
> Unless you're planning to go off the grid or something, power outages are
>
> usually rare events. It's better to just have emergency lighting for the
>
> few occasions the power goes out.
>
>
>
> I have a couple of these LED power failure lights:
>
>
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/PowerFailureLight
>
>
>
> They simply plug into a wall outlet so they are always fully charged. If
>
> the power goes out, they come on automatically so we can safely move
>
> around the house after things go dark. If needed, they can be unplugged
>
> from the wall and carried around like a flashlight. They supposedly
>
> provide light over 8 hours, but I've never left them on that long to know
>
> if that is accurate.
>
>
>
> If the power goes out for more than few minutes, the power failure lights
>
> provide light so that I can get my LED lantern:
>
>

I have those too.

[Tony Hwang]

JIMMIE wrote:
> My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less than 100 watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my light circuits to the UPS during emergencies like this ice storm that is coming up. Not worried about heat or the fridge, I have gas heater backup and not enough in the fridge to worry about. Are there approved ways of connecting in the UPS that does not involve adding a transfer switch. I was thinking about doing this with outlets and plugs so I could unplug the light circuit and plug it into the UPS.
>

> Jimmie
>
Hmmm,
Is your light only on one circuit throughout the house? I just have
emergency rechargeable light pack located on every level in the house.
And candle sticks/match box for back up. In the past 43 years since
we relocated here total power outage was may be ~5 hours top. I think
that is pretty good record.

[Lab Lover]

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 07:05:26 -0800 (PST), "tra...@optonline.net"
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:

>True, but it doesn't have to be used that way. He could have a
>typical UPS that you'd use for say a PC, leave it plugged in
>and only connect it manually to lights when the power goes out.
>If he does that by plugging in some floor lamps, that's cool.
>But it sounded like he wants to put plugs on the end of his
>existing light circuits in the house, which isn't kosher.

Under your description, then it would not be functioning as a UPS, but instead
as a manual backup power supply.

[philo]

On 02/12/2014 09:25 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per RobertMacy:
>> without wanting to go to an
>> automobile battery, which wasn't allowed,
>
> Safety?
>

Correct. Hydrogen and oxygen emission while charging.


Must use VRLA battery.

[Tekkie®]

philo  posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

What about the di-lithium crystals?

--
Tekkie

[DerbyDad03]

Stormin Mormon <cayo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/12/2014 8:03 AM, philo wrote:
>>
>> That's weird, my UPS system will power my laptop for about a year or so.
>>
>>
>> https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/1069827_774150599278978_1786645054_n.jpg
>>
> http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/tubes.jpg
>
> They keep trying to upgrade my processor.
>
> And your UPS would run this for at least TWO years.
> http://www.wpclipart.com/computer/PCs/eniac_vacuum_tubes.png

Who needs those wimpy arse vacuum tubes. A real man works with these...

http://www.qsl.net/oz1dku/loran%20PA%20tubes.jpg

These are water-cooled PA tubes for Loran transmitters. Filament current
300A at 12.7V. Plate voltage 15,000 VDC. Output power 1.5MW.

When they went bad we hollowed them out, wired them for 120AC and made 25
lb desk lamps out of them.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

The only problem with the ferro is poor efficiency. The ferro was
like a little "micro-furnace".

I sold Best UPs equipment for many years.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Why change the battery to charge it??? Best Power had their "UBS"
systems - "Unlimited Battery System" - a DC generator super-charger
system that ran many police and emergency service dispatch systems
through hurricanes, earthquakes, blizards, and anything else you could
throw at them.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Not necessarilly true. Only "dual conversion" UPS work that way - and
that is just the high end of the UPS spectrum.

>
>I seriously doubt the total power consumed by the OP's whole house LED lighting
>is less than 100 watts. There is a fair amount of power wasted and dissipated
>as heat in the typical power supplies used for LED lighting. However, he could
>have a very small house.

My finished basement runs about 75 watts. The kitchen is about 45 or
50. Each bedroom is 13. The living room can run as high as 55 watts.

We could quite easily manage on less than 100 watts of LED at a time.

>Regardless, if the OP were to simply isolate the circuits which power the LEDs
>and have nothing else on those circuits, he could easily connect those circuits
>to the UPS on a permanent basis. A good 1500 - 2000 W UPS would provide
>reasonable protection for the LED power supply components and a fairly decent
>run time during a blackout.
>
>Obviously, the above requires a reasonable understanding of residential wiring,
>NEC and local codes in order to accomplish this in a safe manner.

And he needs a "hard wire" UPS. Cannot connect a "plug in" UPS
permanently to house wiring and meet code.

[philo]

I guess they didn't come up with a transistor to replace that one

[Metspitzer]

Section please?

We have installed industrial shop lights hanging from chain that have
a cord and plug so the fixtures can be replaced/moved. Granted it was
individual lights and not the feed for many lights, but I don't see
any safety issue.

Anita Snugsnatch

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Buy a UPS that supports external battery packs and you are all set -
but they are NOT 12 volt units. Some are 24, some 36, and some 42 or
48 or more The external battery (extended run) units usually are
higher voltage than the self-contained.

My powerware Prestige 1000 is 48 volts - 4X12 volt batteries, and the
prestige 1000EXT is 60 volts - 5X12 volts.
The external packs "generally" have their own chrging system.

10 minutes on internal battery, 42 with external pack at rated load.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Not true. There are UPS units designed for exactly this application
that are hardwired into the house circuitry.

[DerbyDad03]

They did, but it was many years after I worked on them. The timing
equipment had _just_ gone solid state when I started working on it but the
transmitters were still vacuum tube.

In fact, when my class finished basic ET school, the guys that were going
on to Loran school were split into 2 groups: those that were going to
stations with vacuum tube timing equipment and those that were going to
stations that had been upgraded. I got lucky. The techs at LorSta Sylt
Germany were upgrading the equipment while I was going to school in NYC to
learn how to work on it. By the time I got to Sylt the old equipment was in
the hallway and the new equipment had just gone on air.

As it turned out, I enjoyed working on the old transmitters more than the
new timing equipment so I spent most of my time in the transmitter
building, a quarter mile from the main station. At all Loran stations the
transmitter building, which was at the base of the tower, was always placed
as far from the main station as the tower was high. Even though the towers
were guyed to spin straight down if they failed, they still placed them
where they couldn't reach main station if they ever fell over sideways.

The thing about the old transmitters is that they constantly needed
preventative maintenance and when they broke you actually had to
troubleshoot them instead of just swapping out circuit boards. There was
always something to do and you got to play with high voltage and real
tools. Besides, the station officers were mostly afraid of the high voltage
so they left us alone when we were out there.

My favorite troubleshooting time was when we had to find the cause of an
arc inside the transmitter. The transmitters had metal plates covering
various sections and sometimes they would arc internally where we couldn't
see what was going on.

We would remove the metal plates, turn off the lights in the transmitter
building, and run the power supply up to the normal 15KV operating voltage.
If it didn't arc soon enough for our liking, we'd run it up to 20KV, wait a
little while then run it up to 25KV. At that voltage, anything that was
going to arc usually did - and with authority. Even though you knew it was
coming, it still scared the crap out of you.

[Lab Lover]

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 00:03:07 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net>
wrote:

Weren't those 4CX1000 tubes?

[Robert Green]

<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message news:a2add6e8-9f45-43be-a90a-

<stuff snipped>

<<True, but it doesn't have to be used that way. He could have a
typical UPS that you'd use for say a PC, leave it plugged in
and only connect it manually to lights when the power goes out.
If he does that by plugging in some floor lamps, that's cool.
But it sounded like he wants to put plugs on the end of his
existing light circuits in the house, which isn't kosher.>>

Oy vay, is it NOT kosher. He asked if there was a way to do with that would
not use a transfer switch AND would be "inspectable." No way, Jose. I got
a whole bunch of Philips' "Stumble Lights" from a wholesaler a few years
back. They are 4 LED units with motion and ambient light detectors that run
off a 9VDC wall wart. To make them work during a power failure I removed
the wall warts and now they are all connected to a deep discharge, 80Ah
wheelchair battery. Because they draw so little power on standby they can
(and have) run for days when the main power has failed.

Fortunately, the long wire runs back to the main battery drop the voltage
almost exactly enough to run at 9VDC. As you walk through the house, even
in a total power failure, the Stumble lights sense motion and light up the
way. They've saved a lot of banged up knees and worse. Installed their
precursor (strings of LED lights) after I forgot I had left a big, black
stereo speaker on the floor and broke my toe on it one night.

<<Yes, I agree. But from what he's written, I think the intention
is to use a basic UPS that he already has and I doubt it's designed
for being hardwired in.>>

Agreed. While we can't be exactly sure of his intentions, the parameters he
set (using existing gear, no transfer switch and being code-compliant) seem
impossible to fulfill. At least not without an UPS the size of which I have
never seen and not even then because it would still need a transfer switch.

You could easily wire in 12VDC LED lights throughout the house on low voltag
e wiring for far less than such a massive UPS would cost. They would be far
more efficient because there would be no losses from taking a battery,
creating 110VAC from it and then powering LEDs that transform that AC back
into DC. As someone else pointed out, backfeeding the grid like that would
not be a good idea nor would the UPS last very long. Jimmie has a good
idea, it just has to be implemented in parallel with the existing lighting,
not using the existing lighting.

--
Bobby G.

[NotMe]

"JIMMIE" <JIMMIE...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1ee0c8e6-2b51-4932...@googlegroups.com...
My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less than 100
watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my light circuits to the
UPS during emergencies like this ice storm that is coming up. Not worried
about heat or the fridge, I have gas heater backup and not enough in the
fridge to worry about. Are there approved ways of connecting in the UPS that

does not involve adding a transfer switch. I was thinking about doing this
with outlets and plugs so I could unplug the light circuit and plug it into
the UPS.

Jimmie

{{{


We have similar problem with stand by lighting. We use an always on
inverter as a continuous feed to the lighting. The inverter is on a triple
stage flow charge and deep cycle batteries. Capacity is at least a week
mostly because of the available deep cycle batteries. Side benifit I can
rub the TV and radio as needed withou noticable loss of capacity. The
batteries are located in the garage so push come to shove I can top
off/recharge with the car.

Deep cycle golf cart batteries are cheap if you feel the need to run the
fridge and/or a microwave.

[The Daring Dufas]

On 2/12/2014 10:13 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> On 2/12/2014 8:03 AM, philo wrote:
>>
>> That's weird, my UPS system will power my laptop for about a year
>> or so.
>>
>> https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/1069827_774150599278978_1786645054_n.jpg
>>
>>
> http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/tubes.jpg
>
> They keep trying to upgrade my processor.
>
> And your UPS would run this for at least TWO years.
> http://www.wpclipart.com/computer/PCs/eniac_vacuum_tubes.png
>

The computer engineers had to replace tubes in those beasts on a daily
basis. ^_^

TDD

[The Daring Dufas]

You could attach a circular florescent lamp to a ball cap like it was a
propeller beanie and have enough light to work by when you were near the
transmitter. ^_^

TDD

[DerbyDad03]

The Daring Dufas <the-dari...@stinky-finger.net> wrote:
> On 2/12/2014 7:17 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

...stuff about transmitters snipped...

>>
> You could attach a circular florescent lamp to a ball cap like it was a
> propeller beanie and have enough light to work by when you were near the transmitter. ^_^
>
> TDD

We used hold fluorescent tubes near the tower. As you'd slide your hand up
and down the tube, it would light up only above your hand.

It was pretty cool to be able to "move" light.

[tra...@optonline.net]

He didn't say he wanted to plug it in permanently. He only said he
wants to use the UPS when power goes out. That mode is no different
than using a portable gas generator to power the house which you
can do as long as you have a transfer switch or panel lockout kit
installed together with an inlet. You then use an extension cord
to connect the generator. He could do the same thing with his UPS.

[tra...@optonline.net]

You're not seriously trying to compare a hanging light fixture
with a plug/cord to permanenty wiring in a UPS that is not designed
nor rated to be permanently wired into house circuits are you?

I don't see anything wrong from a code or safety standpoint if
he makes it a temporary arrangement, just like you'd do if you
correctly make provisions to connect a portable generator.
I see a lot wrong if he takes a typical UPS that you'd used for a PC,
ie with receptacles, bastardizes that and wires it into his
light circuits.

[philo]

On 02/12/2014 06:04 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> O

>>
>>
>> Finally someone who knows about Best Power.
>>
>> I still have one. I worked for a company that sold the units and even
>> visited the company to attend their training school.
>>
>> Between the ferroresonant circuit and the hysteresis loop charging,
>> those things could not be beat.
> The only problem with the ferro is poor efficiency. The ferro was
> like a little "micro-furnace".
>
> I sold Best UPs equipment for many years.
>

I was in the industrial battery & charger business and UPS's were a side
line...but back then ferroresonant was considered pretty good efficiency.

I don't know what the present state-of-the-art is for UPS's but as far
as battery chargers...high frequency conversion chargers are now being
used. (Of course they were already using them in Europe 25 years ago)

[philo]

On 02/12/2014 07:17 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> philo <ph...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> On 02/12/2014 06:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> Stormin Mormon <cayo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2/12/2014 8:03 AM, philo wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> That's weird, my UPS system will power my laptop for about a year or so.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/1069827_774150599278978_1786645054_n.jpg
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/tubes.jpg
>>>>
>>>> They keep trying to upgrade my processor.
>>>>
>>>> And your UPS would run this for at least TWO years.
>>>> http://www.wpclipart.com/computer/PCs/eniac_vacuum_tubes.png
>>>
>>> Who needs those wimpy arse vacuum tubes. A real man works with these...
>>>
>>> http://www.qsl.net/oz1dku/loran%20PA%20tubes.jpg
>>>
>>> These are water-cooled PA tubes for Loran transmitters. Filament current
>>> 300A at 12.7V. Plate voltage 15,000 VDC. Output power 1.5MW.
>>>
>>> When they went bad we hollowed them out, wired them for 120AC and made 25
>>> lb desk lamps out of them.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I guess they didn't come up with a transistor to replace that one
>
> They did, but it was many years after I worked on them. The timing
> equipment had _just_ gone solid state when I started working on it but the
> transmitters were still vacuum tube.

> X



<snipped but read>


Back in the 60's when I first got my ham ticket we'd always hear Loran

I figured that now with GPS it would no longer be used, but a quick
Google search shows it's still in use.


Sure liked those old days of vacuum tubes.

A friend of mine picked up a couple of WW-II radar sets and converted
them to 1296 mhz transceivers.
In 1965 that was quite an advanced project.


As to finding high-voltage arc-overs.
I still recall watching TV at a friend's house and him telling me that
his dad had to put a glass ash tray inside to prevent arcing over!

[The Daring Dufas]

On 2/11/2014 9:43 PM, JIMMIE wrote:
> My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less than
> 100 watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my light
> circuits to the UPS during emergencies like this ice storm that is
> coming up. Not worried about heat or the fridge, I have gas heater
> backup and not enough in the fridge to worry about. Are there
> approved ways of connecting in the UPS that does not involve adding a
> transfer switch. I was thinking about doing this with outlets and
> plugs so I could unplug the light circuit and plug it into the UPS.
>
> Jimmie
>

The easiest thing to do is to run a low voltage lighting system using a
12vdc power system and battery charger. A relay to switch on the 12 volt
LED lights when the power fails is simple to implement and with a proper
low current fuse is quite safe. I bought a little 48 LED light panel
meant to replace an automobile dome light from Amazon to play with and
it and it puts out a surprising amount of light. The LED panel
measures 1-1/2" X 2-5/8" and has double stick foam on the back so it can
be mounted easily. I imagine you can make your own panel using 4 to 6of
them and light up a room very well. I haven't measured the current draw
on it but I found it is quite bright off a 9 volt battery. Low voltage
wire such as telephone wire installed with a stapler could be used to
wire rooms for emergency light using the little modules. ^_^

http://www.amazon.com/niceeshop-Interior-Dome-Panel-Light/dp/B00F1692GQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1392304771&sr=8-1&keywords=niceeshop%28TM%29+48+SMD+LED+Interior+Car+Dome+lamp+Panel%2FLight
+Lamp+Panel+-+White

http://preview.tinyurl.com/n4r8vhu

TDD

[RobertMacy]

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 07:11:13 -0700, tra...@optonline.net
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:

>>> ...snip....
> Yes, he could do that, provided it all complies with code.
> I suspect the first problem is that it sounds like he already
> has a garden variety UPS for use with a PC, etc and they
> have outlets, ie they aren't rated or designed to be hardwired.

Your comments of following code, absolutely agree with!

Not because of fear of prosecution etc, but over time these codes have
come about due to some kind of accident. They represent a 'learned'
history of errors, thereofe learn from them and follow code.

Therefore, implement the'function' you describe! sounds like an excellent
idea. Just be careful, go about 'correctly' implementing that function.

[RobertMacy]

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 08:12:27 -0700, Stormin Mormon <cayo...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>>> ..snip...

>
> Other than golf cart or marine trolling batteries,
> what were effective for power storage?

From memory, the 12 Vdc 4 A-hr Powersonics batteries. Bruno, their chief
engineer, taught me a LOT about battery chemistry and 'proper' charging
and overall care of a battery.

Parbly changed a lot since then. Today, there's not much reason to NOT
stick a chip in each rechargeable battery just to make everything a
'system'.

[RobertMacy]

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 08:25:43 -0700, (PeteCresswell) <x...@y.invalid> wrote:

> Per RobertMacy:

>> without wanting to go to an
>> automobile battery, which wasn't allowed,
>

> Safety?


TRUE! I once learned the hard way about how an automobile battery
generates hydrogen gas during recharge! as in, BOOM! and no more battery,
just acid running down through everything.

[Metspitzer]

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 05:15:53 -0800 (PST), "tra...@optonline.net"
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>You're not seriously trying to compare a hanging light fixture
>with a plug/cord to permanenty wiring in a UPS that is not designed
>nor rated to be permanently wired into house circuits are you?
>
>I don't see anything wrong from a code or safety standpoint if
>he makes it a temporary arrangement, just like you'd do if you
>correctly make provisions to connect a portable generator.
>I see a lot wrong if he takes a typical UPS that you'd used for a PC,
>ie with receptacles, bastardizes that and wires it into his
>light circuits.

Let's say the OPs electrical panel is in his open garage. Mount a
1900 box under the panel so it is around 18 inches from the floor.
Connected the box to the panel with a conduit. Disconnect the circuit
that supplies the lights. Run the feed for the (new) receptacles in
the 1900 box to the breaker the lights were on.
http://www.garvinindustries.com/Electrical-Box-Covers/4-Square-Industrial-Surface-Covers/1-2-Raised/G1938?gclid=CKzam_O-ybwCFShk7AodjAUAog

Now take a 4 ft length of SO cord and run that cord into the side of
the 1900 box. Connect the SO cord to the lighting circuit that came
off the breaker that now feeds the receptacle.

Now, what you have is a feed for the lights that can be disconnected
by unplugging the receptacle. The receptacle is still in perfect
working order.

Plug the UPS and the lighting circuit into the receptacle for 8 hours
until the UPS charges. Then, unplug the lighting receptacle from the
receptacle and plug it into the UPS.

The UPS has the automatic transfer built in. No back feeding. No
jury rigging. Nothing against code I know of.

Anita Snugsnatch

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 11:35:53 AM UTC-5, Metspitzer wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 05:15:53 -0800 (PST), "tra...@optonline.net"
>
> <tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >You're not seriously trying to compare a hanging light fixture
>
> >with a plug/cord to permanenty wiring in a UPS that is not designed
>
> >nor rated to be permanently wired into house circuits are you?
>
> >
>
> >I don't see anything wrong from a code or safety standpoint if
>
> >he makes it a temporary arrangement, just like you'd do if you
>
> >correctly make provisions to connect a portable generator.
>
> >I see a lot wrong if he takes a typical UPS that you'd used for a PC,
>
> >ie with receptacles, bastardizes that and wires it into his
>
> >light circuits.
>
>
>
> Let's say the OPs electrical panel is in his open garage. Mount a
>
> 1900 box under the panel so it is around 18 inches from the floor.
>
> Connected the box to the panel with a conduit. Disconnect the circuit
>
> that supplies the lights. Run the feed for the (new) receptacles in
>
> the 1900 box to the breaker the lights were on.
>
> http://www.garvinindustries.com/Electrical-Box-Covers/4-Square-Industrial-Surface-Covers/1-2-Raised/G1938?gclid=CKzam_O-ybwCFShk7AodjAUAog
>
>
>
> Now take a 4 ft length of SO cord and run that cord into the side of
>
> the 1900 box. Connect the SO cord to the lighting circuit that came
>
> off the breaker that now feeds the receptacle.
>
>

I don't think you'll find SO cord listed in the NEC as an acceptable
wiring material for branch circuits, so there's that.

>
> Now, what you have is a feed for the lights that can be disconnected
>
> by unplugging the receptacle. The receptacle is still in perfect
>
> working order.
>
>

The receptacle that you've now connected to the panel circuit
breaker isn't the problem. That's permissible. It's the branch
circuit that you've disconnected and what you're doing with it
that's the problem.

>
> Plug the UPS and the lighting circuit into the receptacle for 8 hours
>
> until the UPS charges.

So now you have a branch circuit plugged on a cord plugged
into a receptacle, ie not permanently wired. I'm sure that's
a code violation.

Then, unplug the lighting receptacle from the
>
> receptacle and plug it into the UPS.
>
>

And there is the next problem. You now have a branch circuit
that's on a cord and the branch circuit protection, ie the
breaker in the panel, is no longer protecting the circuit. You could
take a 15A branch circuit that's wired with 14 gauge and plug it
into a 20A UPS or generator outlet. Or another outlet in the house
that's 20A for that matter, when the alternate power source isn't used.

And I would think it may violate other sections of the code,
for example grounding conductors. I would expect that
you'd find that the grounding for light fixtures, circuits, etc
calls for a continous uninterruped ground connection
back to the main ground at the panel. By inserting a corded plug
that can be unplugged, you're changing what should be permanent
into something that can be unplugged.

>
> The UPS has the automatic transfer built in.

> No back feeding. No
>
> jury rigging. Nothing against code I know of.
>
>

Taking an existing branch circuit off it's over current
protection, ie breaker, at the panel and putting in on a cord
and plug sure sounds like j rigging to me. And it's clearly against
code. Perhaps Gfre or Bud would like to weigh in on this.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

I cannot for the life of me figure out where the fixation on a
transfer switch is coming from. A UPS by it's very DESIGN has a
transfer switch built in. Standby UPS even have a spec for "transfer
time" - the time it takes to switch from line to inverter - and it is
IMPOSSIBLE for the inverter to backfeed the line. Absolutely, 100%
positively impossible. BUT the UPS MUST be installed permanently into
the circuit in order to function - and this requires a UPS designed
for hardwire installation. There are LOTS of them available - but not
at your typical WallMart or consumer electronics store.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 11:35:53 -0500, Metspitzer <Kilo...@charter.net>
wrote:

You don't know your code. Around here, anyways, permanently installed
house wiring may NOT be connected using a plug. Period. Even getting
a furnace to pass being plugged in can be a challenge.

[tra...@optonline.net]

Because that's one code compliant way to use an existing
garden variety UPS like it sounds the OP has, ie the type that has
a plug, cord, and receptacles, like you'd use with a PC.
With a transfer switch or a panel
lockout kit and inlet, you can hook a portable generator up with an
extension cord and it's code compliant. You can do the same with
the UPS he's using for his PC. How practical it all is, and is it
worth it, those are different questions.

A UPS by it's very DESIGN has a
>
> transfer switch built in. Standby UPS even have a spec for "transfer
>
> time" - the time it takes to switch from line to inverter - and it is
>
> IMPOSSIBLE for the inverter to backfeed the line. Absolutely, 100%
>
> positively impossible. BUT the UPS MUST be installed permanently into
>
> the circuit in order to function - and this requires a UPS designed
>
> for hardwire installation. There are LOTS of them available - but not
>
> at your typical WallMart or consumer electronics store.
>

Which by all indications in *not* the type he has and wants to use.
If he wants to buy one that will be hardwired in, then yes, I agree
he could find one.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:55:12 AM UTC-5, The Daring Dufas wrote:
> On 2/11/2014 9:43 PM, JIMMIE wrote:
>
> > My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less than
>
> > 100 watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my light
>
> > circuits to the UPS during emergencies like this ice storm that is
>
> > coming up. Not worried about heat or the fridge, I have gas heater
>
> > backup and not enough in the fridge to worry about. Are there
>
> > approved ways of connecting in the UPS that does not involve adding a
>
> > transfer switch. I was thinking about doing this with outlets and
>
> > plugs so I could unplug the light circuit and plug it into the UPS.
>
> >
>
> > Jimmie
>
> >
>
> The easiest thing to do is to run a low voltage lighting system using a
>
> 12vdc power system and battery charger. A relay to switch on the 12 volt
>
> LED lights when the power fails is simple to implement and with a proper
>
> low current fuse is quite safe. I bought a little 48 LED light panel
>
> meant to replace an automobile dome light from Amazon to play with and
>
> it and it puts out a surprising amount of light. The LED panel
>
> measures 1-1/2" X 2-5/8" and has double stick foam on the back so it can
>
> be mounted easily. I imagine you can make your own panel using 4 to 6of
>
> them and light up a room very well. I haven't measured the current draw
>
> on it but I found it is quite bright off a 9 volt battery. Low voltage
>
> wire such as telephone wire installed with a stapler could be used to
>
> wire rooms for emergency light using the little modules. ^_^
>
>

I think you'll find that telephone wire is probably not rated for use
in a low voltage lighting system in a house. There is NEC that
applies to those types of installations too.

[The Daring Dufas]

I used to check the output of the two way radios I was working on by
holding a fluorescent tube near or touching the contacts to the antenna.
CB radio rigs with illegal linear amps would really light one up. ^_^

TDD

[DerbyDad03]

There's not near as much Loran left as there used to be. Here's a video of
what happened to the tower I used to hang out under at LorSta Port
Clarence...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u92YYdy6Lak

[The Daring Dufas]

Jesus H Christopher! It's a DIY project not wiring the Smithsonian!
Telephone system cable caries 48vdc talk battery and 90vac ringing
voltage. It's not high current and neither is the power required by the
12vdc LED modules. The OP could use thermostat wire which is rated for
up to 300 volts. He can install his low voltage lighting, measure the
current draw then install a proper fuse to protect the wiring which will
prevent the magic smoke from escaping. o_O

TDD

[philo]

On 02/13/2014 03:02 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> phi

>>
>> Back in the 60's when I first got my ham ticket we'd always hear Loran
>>
>> I figured that now with GPS it would no longer be used, but a quick
>> Google search shows it's still in use.
>>
>>
>> Sure liked those old days of vacuum tubes.
>>
>> A friend of mine picked up a couple of WW-II radar sets and converted
>> them to 1296 mhz transceivers.
>> In 1965 that was quite an advanced project.
>>
>>
>> As to finding high-voltage arc-overs.
>> I still recall watching TV at a friend's house and him telling me that
>> his dad had to put a glass ash tray inside to prevent arcing over!
>
> There's not near as much Loran left as there used to be. Here's a video of
> what happened to the tower I used to hang out under at LorSta Port
> Clarence...
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u92YYdy6Lak
>

Nice way to take down a tower.

[DerbyDad03]

Yep. The T building that they "missed" is where I spent countless hours
during my year there. There was a 1/4 mile enclosed walkway from the
station to the T building. Call it an above ground tunnel. We had a couple
of old bicycles with big baskets as wide as the handlebars for carrying
parts to and from. There were a few lights along the wall so it wasn't
pitch black in the tunnel. Dark, but not pitch black.

One day lightening struck the tower and started a fire in the antenna
coupler inside the building. It also killed power to the building which
took out the lights in the tunnel. There was an small emergency light at
each end of the tunnel but for the most part the rest of the tunnel was now
pitch black.

When the alarm went off, being young, foolish and dedicated, I jumped on
one of the bicycles and headed for the T building down the long dark
tunnel. Those were my babies and I had to save them. Since I couldn't see
anything except for the faint light at the end of the tunnel, I leaned the
big basket against the ice covered wall and pedaled as fast as I could. I
had walked the tunnel so many times that I knew there was nothing to hit so
I just kept peddling as the light faded from behind me and kept going until
the light at the other end allowed me to see again.

I made it to building, grabbed a fire extinguisher from the front room,
felt the door to the transmitter room for heat, opened it slowly, went in
and emptied the CO2 into the antenna coupler. My heart sank as I saw the
burnt mass of copper tubing and ceramic resistors. Antenna couplers
_never_ go bad, so no one keeps a spare on site. I knew we would be off air
for at least a week. If a station is off air for more than one minute per
month, you have ruined a "perfect month". We had just gotten an award for 6
straight months of zero off air time. The run was now over...big time.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

IF he wires it correctly he can use bell wire. But what he can NOT do
is wire 100 watts of LED on a single run of bell wire because that
requires almost 10 amps of current - on a wire that is only rated for
2.3 amps for power transmission.

[tra...@optonline.net]

I didn't say he couldn't do it. I just said that NEC applies to
low voltage circuits run within a house too, and that I have doubts
that using telephone wire to power lights will meet code. Whether it's
DIY or done by an electrician code still applies. If he wants to
ignore that, he's free to do so.

[The Daring Dufas]

Forgive me for not remembering that others will not take into
consideration those things I do without thinking. Those little panels
with 48 SMD LED's draw very little current and like any other electrical
project I've ever done, I will figure in the current draw of the project
before I install anything. I haven't measured the current draw of the
little SMD LED light panels but I'm sure it's not much at all.

TDD

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 17:32:02 -0600, The Daring Dufas

One that I installed in my brother's RV was 3 watts. That's getting
awfully close to the limit on the bell wire. ANd PHONE wire is
generally 22 guage, not 18 - so NO. You cannot use bell wire to wire a
house for low voltage lighting...

[The Daring Dufas]

On 2/12/2014 6:31 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:32:43 -0500, "Sherlock.Homes"
> <Spam...@mail.com> wrote:
>
>> "JIMMIE" <JIMMIE...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1ee0c8e6-2b51-4932...@googlegroups.com...

>>
>> My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less than
>> 100 watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my light
>> circuits to the UPS during emergencies like this ice storm that
>> is coming up. Not worried about heat or the fridge, I have gas
>> heater backup and not enough in the fridge to worry about. Are
>> there approved ways of connecting in the UPS that does not involve
>> adding a transfer switch.

>> __________________________________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
Nope - no approved ways I know of. Lots of jury-rigged possibilities
>> though. The only way to evade the NEC on this is to use low
>> voltage power. Install 12VDC LED lights throughout the house on a
>> dedicated circuit that's always powered by a large (costly) deep
>> discharge battery on a constant charging circuit. If you use a car
>> battery you'll severely shorten its life if you deeply discharge it
>> more than a few times.
>>
>> If these are 110VAC fixtures then there's very little hope of doing
>> what you want to do and having it approved by an inspector. But
>> it is an interesting idea and probably will be the way things are
>> done 50 years from now.
>>
>> SH
>>
> Not true. There are UPS units designed for exactly this application
> that are hardwired into the house circuitry.
>
It strikes me as kind of odd to use a UPS unit to convert 12-24vdc into
120vac to power low current LED lights when the power loss converting DC
to AC with the UPS unit is so wasteful. I would consider a 12vdc
lighting. All the new emergency exit lights I see are LED units so the
OP could get LED table lamps that plug into wall outlets which would
come on automatically when the power went out. Very simple plug and play
which would be a lot less complicated than any rewiring. ^_^

TDD

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Under NORMAL USE a standby UPS is NOT converting DC to AC and turning
it back into AC. That only happens with "dual conversion" or "online"
UPS units. A standby UPS is, in effect, an automatic transfer switch,
a battery charger, and an inverter. When there is power on the line
in, it transfers (connects) directly to the line out.
When the line in fails, the automatic transfer device shuts off the
connection between line in and line out, pawers up the inverter, and
connects the inverter output to the line out..

When line power resumes, the unit transfers from inverter output to
line power, shuts off the inverter, and recharges the battery.
This is how better than 90% of "consumer grade" UPS units work - and
all "standby lighting" ups units. Dual Conversion UPS units are more
expensive, less common, and less efficient - but classify as a
seperately derived power source and TOTALLY decouple from line noise,
harmonics, etc that can upset some very sensitive equipment.

And any UPS of ANY size runs on 36 volts or more - most on 48 and 60
volts.

[The Daring Dufas]

I rescue and repair UPS units. I have a 1kw unit on the floor behind me
and a 750w unit on the counter to my left. Both units have two 12v AGM
batteries in series internally and an external connector for extra 24v
battery packs. I have dealt with UPS systems that were the size of a
bedroom closet and filled with a dozen batteries of the size one would
find under the hood of an automobile. The UPS units I possess put out a
modified square wave which computers and such equipment find acceptable.
I've only had to install true sine wave UPS units to power certain phone
systems. ^_^

TDD

[The Daring Dufas]

Then use landscape lighting wire or 18-16AMW stranded low voltage alarm
or sound system cable. An alternative is what I do when installing CCTV
cameras. I install a central 12vdc power supply and separate low voltage
cables to each camera. A multi terminal central power supply used for
CCTV cameras would be a good choice. It's not rocket surgery. GEEZ!

TDD

[tra...@optonline.net]

Again, he can do whatever he pleases, but landscape lighting wire
is most likely not rated for use inside a building. What you
proposed he wire up is a Class 1 low voltage circuit and it's
covered under NEC.

An alternative is what I do when installing CCTV
>
> cameras. I install a central 12vdc power supply and separate low voltage
>
> cables to each camera. A multi terminal central power supply used for
>
> CCTV cameras would be a good choice. It's not rocket surgery. GEEZ!
>
>
>
> TDD

It's not rocket surgery, but that doesn't mean that there aren't
codes that are supposed to be followed. Why do it half-assed
instead of reading the code, using the right materials, and doing
it right? As an example to the practical problems you're left
with, if someday he goes to sell the house, an inspector seeing
phone wire used for low voltage lighting may flag it. Then he
has a problem that he could have easily avoided by doing it right.

[Robert Green]

<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message

<stuff snipped>

> I cannot for the life of me figure out where the fixation on a
> transfer switch is coming from. A UPS by it's very DESIGN has a
> transfer switch built in. Standby UPS even have a spec for "transfer
> time" - the time it takes to switch from line to inverter - and it is
> IMPOSSIBLE for the inverter to backfeed the line. Absolutely, 100%
> positively impossible.

Here's a scenario where the impossible becomes lethal. The power goes out.
Someone reading this decides to create a male to male power cord. He plugs
one end into his UPS's powered outlet and the other end into the outlet
nearest his table lamp. The table lamp lights up! Just what the OP wants.
Other LED lamps in the house will also probably light up until the fridge or
the furnace kicks on or the utility power comes back on. Not sure what
happens then.

I agree with your observation, generally - no one is likely to connect the
UPS to the grid in a way that will cause energization of the grid outside
the home. But never underestimate the ingenuity of someone trying to
accomplish a goal. It's very simple to do with two extension cords,.a wire
cutter and some wire nuts. In normal UPS operation, I agree, backfeeding is
not very likely, but it's not impossible.

The method I described would actually work pretty well if all circuits but
the ones powering the LED lamps were turned off at the breaker panel along
with the main breaker. But if that main breaker is ON then 110VAC is likely
traveling outside the home.

--
Bobby G.

[The Daring Dufas]

On 2/14/2014 7:11 AM, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
> On Thursday, February 13, 2014 9:55:05 PM UTC-5, The Daring Dufas

>

> An alternative is what I do when installing CCTV
>> cameras. I install a central 12vdc power supply and separate low
>> voltage cables to each camera. A multi terminal central power
>> supply used for CCTV cameras would be a good choice. It's not
>> rocket surgery. GEEZ!
>>
>> TDD
>
> It's not rocket surgery, but that doesn't mean that there aren't
> codes that are supposed to be followed. Why do it half-assed
> instead of reading the code, using the right materials, and doing it
> right? As an example to the practical problems you're left with, if
> someday he goes to sell the house, an inspector seeing phone wire
> used for low voltage lighting may flag it. Then he has a problem
> that he could have easily avoided by doing it right.
>

I've installed both power and low voltage wiring in homes and businesses
and never failed an inspection. Of course, because I was doing it
professionally, most if not all of my wiring was concealed. All the wire
met code for the circuits carrying low voltage even if it was two pair
phone wire. I wired a lot of systems with beige or gray two pair phone
wire and never had a problem with an inspection. The only consideration
is the amount of current the wires will carry. All of the manufactured
low voltage devices I've installed had a label with the amount of
current each device used. If I installed home made DIY low voltage LED
lights, I'm going to measure the current draw and run low voltage wiring
that will carry the load, even phone wire. You keep making it way too
complicated. o_O

TDD

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 20:28:57 -0600, The Daring Dufas

You misunderstood me. By "of any size" I meant any large UPS - not
"all UPSs.. The little cheap crap runs on 12 volts. The intermediates
run on 24. 1000 watts and up GENERALLY run on higher voltage.
My Powerware Presige 1000 units rin on 48 and 60 volts. So do their
750 watt units.

And as far as "modified square wave" and "quasi sine wave" it's
semantics. How many steps for quasi sine, and how few for modified
square? True sine is different (much more costly) technology - which,
as you note, is generally not required - certainly not for a lighting
unit. It's one of those "cabinet style" units the OP needs to install
for lighting because they have no plugs. But he does not need the dual
conversion that MOST of those cabinet units run.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Friday, February 14, 2014 12:13:25 PM UTC-5, The Daring Dufas wrote:
> On 2/14/2014 7:11 AM, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, February 13, 2014 9:55:05 PM UTC-5, The Daring Dufas
>
>
>
> >
>
> > An alternative is what I do when installing CCTV
>
> >> cameras. I install a central 12vdc power supply and separate low
>
> >> voltage cables to each camera. A multi terminal central power
>
> >> supply used for CCTV cameras would be a good choice. It's not
>
> >> rocket surgery. GEEZ!
>
> >>
>
> >> TDD
>
> >
>
> > It's not rocket surgery, but that doesn't mean that there aren't
>
> > codes that are supposed to be followed. Why do it half-assed
>
> > instead of reading the code, using the right materials, and doing it
>
> > right? As an example to the practical problems you're left with, if
>
> > someday he goes to sell the house, an inspector seeing phone wire
>
> > used for low voltage lighting may flag it. Then he has a problem
>
> > that he could have easily avoided by doing it right.
>
> >
>
> I've installed both power and low voltage wiring in homes and businesses
>
> and never failed an inspection. Of course, because I was doing it
>
> professionally, most if not all of my wiring was concealed. All the wire
>
> met code for the circuits carrying low voltage even if it was two pair
>
> phone wire.

From my reading of the code, the system you recommended is a Class 1
low voltage circuit. I believe you proposed using a 12V battery
kept charged with a battery charger to power the LED lights which
would be installed in the house. Clearly phone wire is not code compliant
for that application. May an inspector pass it anyway? Maybe in
some places and maybe not in others. The enforcement level probably
isn't going to be the same in a townhouse in NYC as it is in a small
town in the Midwest
All I'm saying is that there are NEC codes for this type of thing
and in my reading of them, you can't use phone wire. It's not
even clear what phone wire means anymore, as it's usually referred to
today as Cat5. My reading of the code says the minimum allowed is
18 gauge.

I wired a lot of systems with beige or gray two pair phone
>
> wire and never had a problem with an inspection. The only consideration
>
> is the amount of current the wires will carry.

It's not just a matter of the current the wires will carry. Read Article 725 of NEC on what specific cable types are allowed. It's like saying you can
use any wire for 120V circuits, all that matters is the current carrying capability.

All of the manufactured
>
> low voltage devices I've installed had a label with the amount of
>
> current each device used. If I installed home made DIY low voltage LED
>
> lights, I'm going to measure the current draw and run low voltage wiring
>
> that will carry the load, even phone wire. You keep making it way too
>
> complicated. o_O
>
>
>
> TDD

It's not complicated to follow code and do it right.
Is it that complicated to use the proper 18 gauge wire? In my
reading of the code, that's the minimum wire size allowed for
what you proposed. Have you read Articles 720, 725?

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 11:34:41 -0500, "Robert Green"
<robert_g...@yah00.com> wrote:

><cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
>
><stuff snipped>
>
>> I cannot for the life of me figure out where the fixation on a
>> transfer switch is coming from. A UPS by it's very DESIGN has a
>> transfer switch built in. Standby UPS even have a spec for "transfer
>> time" - the time it takes to switch from line to inverter - and it is
>> IMPOSSIBLE for the inverter to backfeed the line. Absolutely, 100%
>> positively impossible.
>
>Here's a scenario where the impossible becomes lethal. The power goes out.
>Someone reading this decides to create a male to male power cord. He plugs
>one end into his UPS's powered outlet and the other end into the outlet
>nearest his table lamp. The table lamp lights up! Just what the OP wants.
>Other LED lamps in the house will also probably light up until the fridge or
>the furnace kicks on or the utility power comes back on. Not sure what
>happens then.
>
>I agree with your observation, generally - no one is likely to connect the
>UPS to the grid in a way that will cause energization of the grid outside
>the home. But never underestimate the ingenuity of someone trying to
>accomplish a goal. It's very simple to do with two extension cords,.a wire
>cutter and some wire nuts. In normal UPS operation, I agree, backfeeding is
>not very likely, but it's not impossible.

The UPS would shut down almost immediately, as the grid load would
present WAY to much of a load (unless it was a HUGE UPS - but yes, it
is impossible to limit stupidity.

Also, if the UPS is plugged into the grid, as soon as the grid comes
up from geing connected to the ups, the ups would shut down - shutting
down the grid , turning the UPS back on, making the light flicker. So
EXTREMELY u nlikely - even in the "idiot" scenario you managed to come
up with ........

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Not everyone has the sense you have. And that's what's scary!!

[tra...@optonline.net]

You might want to read NEC Articles 720, 725 that specifically cover
low voltage circuits, instead of being wrong on the code yet again.

[The Daring Dufas]

What gets me about the whole topic of using a UPS to power low wattage
LED lamps strikes me as bizarre. It would be so much simpler to get LED
lamps with built in batteries that would come on or continue to stay lit
when the power goes out. If I wanted uninterpretable lighting, I can
come up with several less complicated ways to do it. Heck, for many
years, I installed fluorescent fixtures that had built in battery backup
systems. Plug and play would be less complicated and so much easier. I
found a new one that's screw and play and I'm sure there are others. ^_^

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/127019135/smartchargetm-never-be-in-the-dark-again

http://preview.tinyurl.com/mmblj76

http://www.thegreenhead.com/2007/09/8-hour-emergency-power-failure-light.php

http://preview.tinyurl.com/2jmcu9

http://lizstevens.hubpages.com/hub/12-Volt-DC-Household-Fans-12-Volt-Table-Lamps-Power-Outage-Off-Grid-RV-Camping

http://preview.tinyurl.com/lx7arsf

TDD

[The Daring Dufas]

I've installed thousands of feet of single and multi pair stranded 18
gauge jacketed wiring for all sorts of things. If the equipment I'm
installing calls for it, I will use it. Some cities have their own
version of the NEC. An example is Birmingham where I live which has a
stricter interpretation of the NEC than the county I'm in. I remember
reading something about New York where surge arrester multi outlet
receptacle strips are not allowed. I imagine which planet your on would
make a difference in the type of wiring that's required. ^_^

TDD

[The Daring Dufas]

Believe me, I've always followed the code in whatever jurisdiction I was
working in. Sometimes, a jurisdiction will require wiring that exceeds
what's in the NEC specs. The trick is to know where you are and what
will be accepted. o_O

TDD

[tra...@optonline.net]

I agree with that. As someone else pointed out many posts ago,
there are flashlight type LED lights that come with a holder that
plugs into a wall outlet. They function as a rechargeable LED flashlight
and if the power goes off when they are seated in the charger/holder,
they light up. A few of those, plus an LED lantern or two would seem
a reasonable solution to me.

Or if you want to power more, ie furnace, well pumps, more lights, fridge
etc, then a portable generator with a lockout kit on the panel
is what I would do.

[Robert Green]

<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message

> Also, if the UPS is plugged into the grid, as soon as the grid comes
> up from geing connected to the ups, the ups would shut down - shutting
> down the grid , turning the UPS back on, making the light flicker. So
> EXTREMELY u nlikely - even in the "idiot" scenario you managed to come
> up with ........

"Idiot?" "Managed?"

All he has to do is throw the main breaker and your objections are
nullified. I guess you missed the part where I said that. <sigh>
Unfortunately I think 10 minutes after reading this JIMMIE can use his UPS
exactly as he requested in his opening message. I say that because while it
should work, there are much better ways to accomplish his goal. But
probably no easier ones. But I'm no electrician so I concede there may be a
flaw in my solution. If so, please enlighten me.

If he follows the steps I suggested in the original message he will
accomplish the goal he stated (other than being "approved" - but he
certainly can remove the evidence quickly because no rewiring is involved at
all:

1) He opens the main breaker so there's no backfeeding the grid in any way.

2) He shuts off all BUT the breakers going to low wattage LED lamp circuits.

3) He makes up a short male-to-male AC cord of sufficient size to carry the
UPS output current and connects the UPS output to one of the "still live"
outlets on the circuits he hasn't shut off. These outlets should only serve
low wattage LED lamps. Is there a reason why the juice the UPS is pumping
into the still active LED-only circuits won't reach all the outlets on those
circuits? Using the panel breakers, he's created a mini-grid of only LED
circuits powered by UPS and isolated from the main utility service. No
transfer switch needed.

4) When the power is restored (he'll have to watch the neighbor's house to
know) then all he has to do is unplug the UPS from the male-to-male cable,
reset all the breakers to "ON" and throw the main breaker back on when the
power is restored.

Seems pretty simple compared to the suggestions involving massive rewires or
parallel low voltage systems. Is it what I would do? I might try it the
next time the power fails. Hell, I might try it just as a "proof of
concept" the next time I have to shut down the panel. I have an LV motion
sensor light network to light the floor and LED battery flashlights for
"work area" lighting so I am covered, but it would be good to know if it
works.

Here's the part I think you missed the first time around.

> >The method I described would actually work pretty well if all circuits
but
> >the ones powering the LED lamps were turned off at the breaker panel
along
> >with the main breaker. But if that main breaker is ON then 110VAC is
likely
> >traveling outside the home.

While skilled electricians might never contemplate the solution I described,
I've seen plenty of bootleg wiring that tells me anything is possible. This
setup doesn't take rocket science to figure out. I suspect it would be very
easy for anyone marginally familiar with electricity to conjur up. If the
question's been posted here, I've found it often means *someone's* very
likely already figured out a jury rigged answer. The hardest part for many
would be cutting two extensions cords in half and wirenutting the male ends
together to make a "transfer cord." (-:

Once he makes up the male-to-male power cord to go from the UPS outlet to a
"still live" LED circuit outlet, all the outlets on those circuits will be
energized from the UPS. I think it's actually relatively safe compared to
some of the suggestions that have surfaced in this thread. And, with the
cord already fabricated, he could switchover after a failure in about two
minutes. Flip ten or fifteen breakers and plug the UPS into one of the few
remaining ON circuit outlets via the transfer cable. No modification of the
household wiring, no attaching plugs to Romex, no backfeeding outside the
house.

It's high efficiency, too. Manual switches, no constantly on UPS - just one
that's occasionally charged up to capacity and can wait offline to be
connected. Might not even violate the NEC because nothing's permanently
attached, but somehow, I doubt it! (-: Where are all our codemeisters?

--
Bobby G.

[Robert Green]

TDD sez:

> > If I wanted uninterpretable lighting, I can
> > come up with several less complicated ways to do it.

Your often "uninterpretable" writing might actually benefit from
uninterruptible lighting. If you use phone wire or twin lead or coax to
power your lighting circuit then it *will* be "uninterpretable" to anyone
coming after you. Especially anyone insane enough to expect phone wire to
be connected to (wait for it) telephones, twin lead to TV's, etc!

(-:

The old time phone company pros I knew had two different cases of wiring
they disliked (and most often just wired around or over). One was
"undocumented" wiring, which was code for "professionally installed but not
labeled or mapped" and the other was "customer installed supplied wiring"
(which they'd say and then spit in disgust for emphasis). CIW meant "who
the fu& knows WHAT it is and where it goes and what it does?" Some might
even call it uninterpretable wiring. (-:

--
Bobby G.

[The Daring Dufas]

On 2/14/2014 11:08 PM, Robert Green wrote:
> TDD sez:
>
>>> If I wanted uninterpretable lighting, I can
>>> come up with several less complicated ways to do it.
>
> Your often "uninterpretable" writing might actually benefit from
> uninterruptible lighting. If you use phone wire or twin lead or coax to
> power your lighting circuit then it *will* be "uninterpretable" to anyone
> coming after you. Especially anyone insane enough to expect phone wire to
> be connected to (wait for it) telephones, twin lead to TV's, etc!
>
> (-:

What, you never heard of Norm Crosby one of my heroes? I emulate him
quite often when writing sometimes porpoisely and sometimes not. ^_^

>
> The old time phone company pros I knew had two different cases of wiring
> they disliked (and most often just wired around or over). One was
> "undocumented" wiring, which was code for "professionally installed but not
> labeled or mapped" and the other was "customer installed supplied wiring"
> (which they'd say and then spit in disgust for emphasis). CIW meant "who
> the fu& knows WHAT it is and where it goes and what it does?" Some might
> even call it uninterpretable wiring. (-:
>
> --
> Bobby G.
>

I was in the alarm business at one time and every installer at every
company uses the same type wire for alarm circuits as that used for
POTS lines by phone system installers. I know this because I've done
both. That's why professionals use test equipment and trust no one. On
more than one incursion I've had to repair wiring molested by both
trades. ^_^

TDD

[tra...@optonline.net]

The situation you described is exactly what a lot of people do
with a generator. It's known as a suicide cord, for obvious reasons.

>
> Once he makes up the male-to-male power cord to go from the UPS outlet to a
>
> "still live" LED circuit outlet, all the outlets on those circuits will be
>
> energized from the UPS. I think it's actually relatively safe compared to
>
> some of the suggestions that have surfaced in this thread.

Not sure which ones you're referring to. The ones I saw were to
either use a general purpose UPS with a transfer switch or lockout kit
on the panel or to get a wired in UPS for the light circuits that's
listed for that purpose. And to wire up 12V LEDs throughout the house,
connected to a battery with a charger. None of those are unsafe if
done properly.

As to which of those are practical, it sure sounded to me like he
wanted to use a UPS he already has, not buy a new hard wired type,
ie do something cheap and easy. So, I don't think the idea of
buying a hardwired UPS rated for the purpose and permanently installing
it is what he had in mind. Wiring up LEDs throughout the house doesn't
sound too easy or practical to me either. Not compared to buying a
few of those plug-in LED flashlights that sit in a charging cradle.
You can use them as a flashlight and if the power goes out when they
are in the cradle, they come on. Then you go get your LED lantern,
or plug an LED floor lamp into your UPS.

And, with the
>
> cord already fabricated, he could switchover after a failure in about two
>
> minutes. Flip ten or fifteen breakers and plug the UPS into one of the few
>
> remaining ON circuit outlets via the transfer cable. No modification of the
>
> household wiring, no attaching plugs to Romex, no backfeeding outside the
>
> house.
>
>
>
> It's high efficiency, too. Manual switches, no constantly on UPS - just one
>
> that's occasionally charged up to capacity and can wait offline to be
>
> connected. Might not even violate the NEC because nothing's permanently
>
> attached, but somehow, I doubt it! (-: Where are all our codemeisters?
>
>

It doesn't violate the code when it's just sitting there. But it
sure does when you plug it in. I don't see the backfeeding the grid with a
UPS to be a great safety risk to linemen. He has a point there. The
typical UPS you'd use for say a PC, isn't likely to backfeed the grid
for long enough for something to happen to a lineman. The greater risks
I see are:

1 - The suicide cord has energized male prongs when the other end
is plugged into the UPS. Easy for anyone to unplug it and not
realizing it's energized, make contact with it. Someone could trip
over it for example, pulling the live end out.

2 - Someone leaves the main breaker closed and the grid power comes
back on, feeding into the output of the still operating UPS. Maybe
it just trips a breaker in the UPS. Maybe it
just creams it. Maybe it blows up, IDK, but I doubt it's designed
and rated with that happening in mind.

Doing a proper code compliant installation with an inlet, solves #1.
Then you use a regular extension cord.
And using a panel lockout kit or transfer switch solves #2.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Correct - as long as all the desired circuits are on the same side of
the panel.
Not code compliant - but it will work. I did (almost) exactly the
same thing for my furnace and refrigerator - but using a generator.
The refigerator is on a "separate" circuit - I added an outlet to the
circuit right beside the panel.
The furnace is also on a "separate" circuit. I did the same for it.
Then I wired both circuits to a "pull-out" fuse block - with one on
each side of the panel. If the power goes off and I need heat, I pull
the fuse block and plug the "widdowmaker" from the generator into the
"furnace" plug and fire up the generator. If the power comes on I know
because the house lights come on.
If I need to cool the refrigerator, I plug the "widow-maker" into the
fridge circuit.
Now, if the power is off and I need lights in the house, I can shut
off the main, plug the generator into the fridge or furnace plug, with
the fuse block re-installed, and have power to all the lights on THAT
side of the panel as long as I do not excede 15 amps total load - or
20 if I put 20 amp fuses in the "replacement" fuse block. the 1959
Onan generator was only good for 2500 watts.

Now I have sold the little old Onan, removed the extra outlets and
gotten rid of the 115 volt "widowmaker". I now have a 7200 watt 240
volt Champion and a big "widowmaker" that plugs into my 30 amp
welder/compressor plug in the garage untill I change my panel and
install a generator breaker and interlock so I don't need the
"widowmaker" any more - and I will be code compliant.

Untill then I just need to throw the main disconnect before plugging
in the genset. My "lockout" to make sure no-one accidentally flips the
main back on is to pull the cartridge fuses from the main disconnect
and put them in the toolbox on the generator.

>
>4) When the power is restored (he'll have to watch the neighbor's house to
>know) then all he has to do is unplug the UPS from the male-to-male cable,
>reset all the breakers to "ON" and throw the main breaker back on when the
>power is restored.
>
>Seems pretty simple compared to the suggestions involving massive rewires or
>parallel low voltage systems. Is it what I would do? I might try it the
>next time the power fails. Hell, I might try it just as a "proof of
>concept" the next time I have to shut down the panel. I have an LV motion
>sensor light network to light the floor and LED battery flashlights for
>"work area" lighting so I am covered, but it would be good to know if it
>works.
>
>Here's the part I think you missed the first time around.
>
>> >The method I described would actually work pretty well if all circuits
>but
>> >the ones powering the LED lamps were turned off at the breaker panel
>along
>> >with the main breaker. But if that main breaker is ON then 110VAC is
>likely
>> >traveling outside the home.

As long as the circuit the "widowmaker" is plugged into is
disconnected (breaker turned off) no power can get out even if the
main is not shut off - but you are limited to one circuit per UPS.
(and you don't need to check the neighbours to see if the grid came
back up)

Much simpler to just have more than one UPS if you want to feed more
than one circuit. The tricky part - when the grid is down, is to be
CERTAIN which breaker needs to be tripped to isolate the particular
circuit you are plugging into , and to be sure you are plugging into
the RIGHT outlet to power the desired lights - which makes shutting
off the mains a good idea.

Not that a little plug-in UPS is going to do ANYTHING if connected to
the (dead) grid, as far as pumong dangerous power out - and when the
grid comes back up it will quickly trip the breaker, and, in all
likelihood, let all the "magic smoke" out of the UPS.

[Robert Green]

<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message news:464e2e2c-1aca-4c2b-9585-

<stuff snipped>

> The situation you described is exactly what a lot of people do
> with a generator. It's known as a suicide cord, for obvious reasons.

Didn't say it was necessarily safe, but it is cheap and effective. (-: But
hacking up light circuits to make them "pluggable" doesn't seem to win many
safety awards either.

<stuff snipped>

> As to which of those are practical, it sure sounded to me like he
> wanted to use a UPS he already has, not buy a new hard wired type,
> ie do something cheap and easy. So, I don't think the idea of
> buying a hardwired UPS rated for the purpose and permanently installing
> it is what he had in mind.

I agree, but we can't really be sure and the OP has not returned for any
followup. Shades of the Halloween troll Fred and his electrified sink?

> Wiring up LEDs throughout the house doesn't
> sound too easy or practical to me either. Not compared to buying a
> few of those plug-in LED flashlights that sit in a charging cradle.

There are some good reasons to wire in LED emergency lights. I did it after
I broke my toe because I didn't want to turn the lights on and wake my wife
up when I had to check on a sick dog one night. I left a big, black heavy
subwoofer out where I could kick it accidentally. That learned me good.

> You can use them as a flashlight and if the power goes out when they
> are in the cradle, they come on. Then you go get your LED lantern,
> or plug an LED floor lamp into your UPS.

I can understand Jimmie's desire to power the existing low wattage LEDs
through a UPS that he already (apparently) owns. It's only natural to want
to use the equipment you have on hand to meet a very occasional need. But I
agree with you that there are other, better and safer ways to achieve that
goal. I took the time to wire up battery powered motion detector LED lights
from Philips:

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20061112005026/en/Philips-Debuts-Stumble-Light-Application-Hotel-Guests

For some reason, they don't seem to be sold anymore so I am glad I bought
two cases of both types (built in motion detector v. remote head containing
the motion detector). Easy to install and conceal, very reliable and they
use photocells to avoid unnecessary daytime activation. They come on when
it's dark and there's motion whether the utility power is present or not. I
would recommend such lighting to anyone, particularly if they have frequent
overnight guests who might not know their way around.

Never had a power failure long enough to drain the 80AH wheelchair battery
that powers all of them (they consume very little current when in use and
even less on standby. That battery, by the way, has one bad cell that
prevents it from properly powering a scooter but it runs the LED lighting
A-OK. There's a 500ma trickle charger attached that keeps the battery
charged.

There's nothing I like more than squeezing the last bit of utility out of
something like an expensive ($120) AGM battery. The battery for my B&D
electric lawnmower powered those lights for almost 5 years after it dropped
too low in voltage to run the mower. Unfortunately after 5 years almost all
the AGM batteries I've dealt with lose their mojo. The battery currently in
use probably will need replacing soon just because of its age.

> It doesn't violate the code when it's just sitting there. But it
> sure does when you plug it in.

I assumed as much. (-:

> I don't see the backfeeding the grid with a
> UPS to be a great safety risk to linemen. He has a point there.

If the power failure was caused by a truck snagging the line from the
transformer, there might be a hazard to anyone touching the downed wires but
I agree, it's remote. I also have to assume that lineman are not so dumb
they go around touching conductors with their bare hands after a massive
power failure.

>The
> typical UPS you'd use for say a PC, isn't likely to backfeed the grid
> for long enough for something to happen to a lineman.

Agreed. Clare was right. It's not really an issue with the consumer grade
UPSs but it could be with the very high powered units that some have
mentioned.

> The greater risks
> I see are:
>
> 1 - The suicide cord has energized male prongs when the other end
> is plugged into the UPS. Easy for anyone to unplug it and not
> realizing it's energized, make contact with it. Someone could trip
> over it for example, pulling the live end out.

Good point. Makes you appreciate how the electrical plug design is actually
quite good at reducing events like that. If I were to do anything like I
suggested, and I don't think I would, I would certainly have a checklist
that tried to insure the UPS wasn't activated until the plug was firmly in
the target socket. Sort of like making sure the hose is connected to the
hose bib *before* you turn the water on.

> 2 - Someone leaves the main breaker closed and the grid power comes
> back on, feeding into the output of the still operating UPS. Maybe
> it just trips a breaker in the UPS. Maybe it
> just creams it. Maybe it blows up, IDK, but I doubt it's designed
> and rated with that happening in mind.

Agreed, too. If you don't operate from a checklist any number of bad things
can happen. I mentioned in an earlier post it was anyone's guess what might
happen if the power came back on with the UPS in the circuit and not
isolated by turning off the main breaker. Clearly shutting off the main
breaker is a critical step. But it is in almost any situation where you're
energizing your home wiring through means other than the utility supply.
That's why transfer switches "automate" that function - to insure you can't
energize the house from an alternate source without disconnecting from the
mains.

> Doing a proper code compliant installation with an inlet, solves #1.
> Then you use a regular extension cord.
> And using a panel lockout kit or transfer switch solves #2.

No doubt there's the right way to do this, but I wanted to demonstrate a
"proof of concept" that as your suicide cord comment notes is something even
a tyro could figure out and no doubt already has. They wouldn't call it a
suicide cord if no one ended up dead from it.

As for using a PC-sized UPS, I don't think it would power the lights for
very long nor would the constant beep reminder that the UPS is providing
power be very pleasant.

For those considering swapping out batteries in those PC-sized UPSs, there's
a little demon called "duty cycle" that could be waiting for you. Many of
these units are designed to run as only as long as the original battery
takes to discharge. Keeping them going for longer with battery swaps can
have unpleasant consequences. DAMHIKT. (-:

--
Bobby G.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Very true of the cheap consumer standby units - while "online" UPS
units are designed to run at full load 24/7/365 - they have fans for
cooling. Yet some of the cheapies WILL run for hours without trouble -
and most would at half load. The better ones have an "alarm silence"
button that shuts off the "beep".

[The Daring Dufas]

On 2/15/2014 9:11 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

>> For those considering swapping out batteries in those PC-sized UPSs, there's
>> a little demon called "duty cycle" that could be waiting for you. Many of
>> these units are designed to run as only as long as the original battery
>> takes to discharge. Keeping them going for longer with battery swaps can
>> have unpleasant consequences. DAMHIKT. (-:
> Very true of the cheap consumer standby units - while "online" UPS
> units are designed to run at full load 24/7/365 - they have fans for
> cooling. Yet some of the cheapies WILL run for hours without trouble -
> and most would at half load. The better ones have an "alarm silence"
> button that shuts off the "beep".
>

All the 1kw and larger UPS units I own are designed for continuous duty
with cooling fans built in and external battery connectors. When I had
my shop which was a 150' long building, I had a number of small consumer
grade backup power supplies hooked to the CFL flood lights that were
available at the time. They were the type with the replaceable long U
shaped tube and the current draw was very low. My 12 watt LED light now
at my desk puts out more light than those old 9 watt florescent lamps.
I could have had a lot of fun with the small SMD LED modules available
these days. I could have lit the whole shop with 12vdc LED modules which
would use less power than just one of the dual F96T12 florescent
fixtures. Here at the ornery old fart's lair, I can be fast asleep and
know when the power goes out because I have 8 UPS units plugged in that
will start complaining. I even know when there is any kind of power
fluctuation because those UPS units will beep for a few seconds. ^_^

TDD

[Tekkie®]

cl...@snyder.on.ca posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

> Why change the battery to charge it??? Best Power had their "UBS"
> systems - "Unlimited Battery System" - a DC generator super-charger
> system that ran many police and emergency service dispatch systems
> through hurricanes, earthquakes, blizards, and anything else you could
> throw at them.

Until the cooling systems overheated then they craped like everything else!

--
Tekkie