How to convert a JPG picture into a vector drawing for experimentation

[Danny D]

I would like freeware to convert a JPG photo into whatever format I
need so that I can "arrange" pumps and pipes around in the drawing
to determine an efficient setup (few elbows, no pipes running over pumps,
etc.).

Have you ever done that process of arranging blocks in a photo?

Here's how I tried it (but maybe there is a better way)?

I started with this crude photo of the current pump setup:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12845175/img/12845175.jpg

Here's a quick 1-step conversion to a pencil drawing with The GIMP:
{GIMP}Filters->Edge Detect->Difference of Gaussians
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/12845181/640/12845181.jpg

Here's a quick conversion of the photo to vector format in Inkscape:
{Inkscape}Edit->Select All
{Inkscape}Path->Trace Bitmap->(o)Edge detection->Update->OK

Inkscape saves a vector diagram, but I can't upload that SVG file; so I'll
instead save as a PNG and upload that (but assume all lines are now
vectors in the Inkscape SVG or DXF file):
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/12845402/img/12845402.png

This takes seconds to do; so my question starts from here:

Given this conversion of the photo to either a pencil drawing or to
a vector diagram - what freeware would you use to experimentally arrange
pumps and plumbing to get an optimal fit?

Constraints:
- As few elbows as possible
- No pipes running over objects
- Easy access to pump baskets & motors
- etc.

[Danny D]

On Sat, 04 May 2013 05:33:42 +0000, Danny D wrote:

> Here's a quick 1-step conversion to a pencil drawing with The GIMP:
> {GIMP}Filters->Edge Detect->Difference of Gaussians
> http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/12845181/640/12845181.jpg

This one is bigger:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/12845181/img/12845181.jpg

[harry]

> - etc.Ads not by this site

I don't believe software exists that can do that.
Maybe the reverse.
This is one job for the human brain.

[Chris Malcolm]

I don't know if any of them are free, but IIRC there are several pipe
planner software systems that do this kind of thing, including
automating some of the routing for you. It might be easier to start
from that end, and then find out which of them will allow the import
of some kind of image and work backwards from there.

No, can't give you any details, I just saw some of them being
demonstrated many years ago.

--
Chris Malcolm

[Danny D]

On Fri, 03 May 2013 23:22:03 -0700, harry wrote:

> I don't believe software exists that can do that.

> This is one job for the human brain.

Thanks.

Here's an example of the Hearst Castle from a Google screenshot:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/12848249/img/12848249.jpg

I took a landscaping class at the local recreation department,
where we did the planning reviews with large paper blueprints.

In that case, it was all drawn by hand after taking tedious
measurements, transferring to block paper, & then to blueprints.

But, the vector blueprint above only took a split second to create
from a screenshot of Google maps - saving umpteen hours of drawing
were I to draw on graph paper to scale ... so I was just wondering
what is out there currently that other people use for blueprints.

No big deal ... just curious (mostly for landscaping purposes).

[Danny D]

On Sat, 04 May 2013 09:38:15 +0000, Chris Malcolm wrote:

> there are several pipe planner software systems that do this

Thanks.

I would think there must be software that does this; and I was
thinking about the problem at night - so the idea hit me to
plan by looking at a photograph.

It's daylight now - so I'll do it by eye again.

Still ... it would be very useful to have the software, simply
because it must exist, for planning purposes.

For example, every elbow costs in inefficiency, and every foot
of pipe costs the builder a dollar. Certainly if they can
eliminate a connection or two, it saves them double that.

In fact, were I to start over, I'd make the whole thing gentle
flowing curves of bent pipe, instead of these sharp elbows.

[George]

On 5/4/2013 9:27 AM, Danny D wrote:
> On Sat, 04 May 2013 09:38:15 +0000, Chris Malcolm wrote:
>
>> there are several pipe planner software systems that do this
>
> Thanks.
>
> I would think there must be software that does this; and I was
> thinking about the problem at night - so the idea hit me to
> plan by looking at a photograph.
>
> It's daylight now - so I'll do it by eye again.
>
> Still ... it would be very useful to have the software, simply
> because it must exist, for planning purposes.

What you described is done everyday. It isn't free and it does require a
lot more than converting a raster image to a vector image which
essentially gives you a single shape.

>
> For example, every elbow costs in inefficiency, and every foot
> of pipe costs the builder a dollar. Certainly if they can
> eliminate a connection or two, it saves them double that.

Absolutely. But there is nothing magical that will do it in a few clicks.

[CRNG]

On Sat, 4 May 2013 13:23:09 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote in <km323t$jsa$1...@speranza.aioe.org> Re Re: How to convert a JPG
picture into a vector drawing for experimentation:

>I took a landscaping class at the local recreation department,
>where we did the planning reviews with large paper blueprints.

Perhaps you can help me. I am looking for some software, free or
inexpensive, to enable me to visualize landscape design around my
home. However I would like the software to be able to show me what
everything will look like after it dies a few months after I plant it.
That way I can visualize what I'll end up with.

[Oren]

On Sat, 4 May 2013 05:33:42 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

>I would like freeware to convert a JPG photo into whatever format I
>need so that I can "arrange" pumps and pipes around in the drawing
>to determine an efficient setup (few elbows, no pipes running over pumps,
>etc.).

Would this help? Free for home and personal use.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SketchUp>

"...includes 2D vector tools,"

Web site:

<http://www.sketchup.com/>

I've never used it but folks say good things...

[harry]

Detailed stuff like that is best left to a skilled/experienced pipe
fitter.
Some fart in a design office is sure to cock the job up.
Just schematic drawings are normally given and the detail left to the
man executing the work. Who will do a much better job.

The photograph you show looks like a proper pigs ear.
Who would want to replicate that?

[Oren]

On Sat, 4 May 2013 09:43:43 -0700 (PDT), harry
<harry...@btinternet.com> wrote:

>
>The photograph you show looks like a proper pigs ear.

harry found a clue.

>Who would want to replicate that?

He doesn't want to. Nobody in their right mind would want to.

[Frank S]

"George" <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:km32kf$sbi$1...@dont-email.me...

My daughter designed university and industrial laboratory plans in
AutoCad. Seems to me a dip into the AutoCad universe might yield some
useful pathways.

--
Frank ess

[isw]

In article <km32bo$jsa$2...@speranza.aioe.org>,

Danny D <Dan...@example.com> wrote:

> For example, every elbow costs in inefficiency, and every foot
> of pipe costs the builder a dollar. Certainly if they can
> eliminate a connection or two, it saves them double that.

Don't forget to factor in the cost of all the planning and design you'll
be doing to "eliminate a connection or two". Spending a lot of
time/money on that sort of design is only economical when the product
will be replicated many times.

> In fact, were I to start over, I'd make the whole thing gentle
> flowing curves of bent pipe, instead of these sharp elbows.

Where can you buy plastic pipes in all sorts of "flexible curves", and
joints at random angles to match?

Isaac

[Oren]

On Sat, 4 May 2013 11:15:23 -0700, "Frank S" <fshe...@san.rr.com>
wrote:

>>> In fact, were I to start over, I'd make the whole thing gentle
>>> flowing curves of bent pipe, instead of these sharp elbows.
>>>
>>
>
>My daughter designed university and industrial laboratory plans in
>AutoCad. Seems to me a dip into the AutoCad universe might yield some
>useful pathways.

Congratulations. By the time I hit the AutoCAD learning curve, I
could just as well use a drafting board, T-squares and some tools to
design a pool pump system.

I never plan to build a space ship using AutoCAD :)

[Oren]

On Sat, 04 May 2013 09:00:07 -0500, CRNG <noe...@atthisdomain.gov>
wrote:

>
>Perhaps you can help me. I am looking for some software, free or
>inexpensive, to enable me to visualize landscape design around my
>home. However I would like the software to be able to show me what
>everything will look like after it dies a few months after I plant it.
>That way I can visualize what I'll end up with.

Better is to determine the tree / plant size at full maturity. Know
those numbers and plant accordingly. Height, canopy width and root
spread.

There is / was software that could progress growth by months or years.

[Eric Stevens]

On Sat, 4 May 2013 13:23:09 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

Aah but you considerably limited your options when you asked for
Freeware. There are commercially available tools at reasonable prices,
some of which can do quite a good job. Where time is money, Freeware
doesn't seem to cut it.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

[Eric Stevens]

Very wise!
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

[Tegger]

harry <harry...@btinternet.com> wrote in
news:3bff9abd-da50-4902...@g9g2000vbl.googlegroups.com:

> On May 4, 6:33 am, Danny D <Dan...@example.com> wrote:

>>
>> Given this conversion of the photo to either a pencil drawing or to
>> a vector diagram - what freeware would you use to experimentally
>> arrange pumps and plumbing to get an optimal fit?
>>
>

> I don't believe software exists that can do that.
> Maybe the reverse.
> This is one job for the human brain.

The OP is asking for quite a lot. He's basically asking for 3D-modeling
software that is capable of recognizing exactly what the photograph shows,
and drafting it so as to create an editable 3D scene. Wouldn't that be nice
if it existed!

Somebody mentioned Google SketchUp. That's about as close as the OP will
come to free 3D software. It's actually pretty good but, like all 3D
programs, requires that you enter the elements in by hand (or by brain,
mouse, and keyboard). However, once in, it's easy enough to push and pull
stuff around and get what you need. I've tried SketchUp, but since I
already use 3DSMax for work, it's not something I want to invest the time
to learn. A designer at one of our suppliers uses SketchUp as her 3D
program; she's learned it well enough to make some pretty nice 3D
renderings.


--
Tegger

[troppo]

Danny D <Dan...@example.com> wrote in

news:km26jm$1j6$1...@speranza.aioe.org:

Hi Danny,

I prefer your first image. Looks familiar, probably because I am also a
compulsive reconditioner :-)

You mucking around with a pool pump, greywater filter, or does it all
fit inside a boat?

First off, I do this sort of thing about twice a week. Real world job,
as in, more likely to get paid if I don't stuff up.

Problem with some of your preferred methods are potential lack of real
dimensions. This needs CAD, not artwork/presentation tools. CAD works
with real dimensions - anything from microns to parsecs.

1.
If you have CAD skills but lack high-end software, get the free copy of
Dassault Systemes Draftsight. Yeah you have to register to activate it,
but you can unsubscribe from the follow-up email news if you find them
irritating.

2.
Paste your image into Draftsight as an attached image. Use "relative" or
none" reference rather than "full".

3.
Make sure a key horizontal and/or vertical line is actually horizontal/
vertical. If not, you can rotate the image by small increments.
In contrasting colours, trace over all the important lines with lines,
arcs or circles with polylines that can be smoothed, and the vertices
moved to get an acceptable "fit". Check some known dimensions, eg the
width/diameter of a pipe? Looks like there is some 25mm / 1" dia stuff
there.
Rescale the image and superimposed lines so that the drawn dimension and
the real dimension match.
Bit of mucking around will be needed to create elevation view from plan
view. I assume that like me you aren't skilled in 3D modelling,
otherwise you wouldn't be asking the question :-)

Software exists that can convert rasters to vectors, but I think it
would make a mess of your project.

Alternative solution? Use flexihose. Maybe use it anyway ...

[Danny D]

On Sat, 04 May 2013 22:24:54 +0000, Tegger wrote:

> Google SketchUp ... is about as close as the OP will come to free 3D

> software. It's actually pretty good but, like all 3D programs, requires
> that you enter the elements in by hand

On Sat, 04 May 2013 08:08:37 -0700, Oren wrote:
> Would this help? Free for home and personal use.
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SketchUp>
> "...includes 2D vector tools,"

Looks like Trimble SketchUp is the suggested raster-to-2D vector program
for small one-time home projects such as that which I contemplate.

Googling for a Linux version, I find the closest 1:1 replacement appears
to be the open-source Blender

Features:
http://www.blender.org/features-gallery

Download:
http://www.blender.org/download/get-blender

I'll test this sequence out:
a. Snap a photograph (or screenshot from Google Maps Satellite View)
b. Convert to 2D vector diagram (with Inkscape or equivalent)
c. Read into 2D/3D CAD software (need to test with Blender)

I'll see what I can do to write up a tutorial for small homeowner
projects; and report back when/if successful.

[Dick Alvarez]

Oren wrote <<By the time I hit the AutoCAD learning

curve, I could just as well use a drafting board, T-
squares and some tools to design a pool pump system.

I never plan to build a space ship using AutoCAD :)>>

Life can be made easier in many ways, by investing in a
learning curve. I am thankful that I learned drafting the
old way, with drafting boards, T-squares, triangles,
protractors, etc., then drafting machines, and finally
life became *enormously* easier and neater and more
accurate with CAD. Same for many modern instruments and
machines. AutoCAD even helps me with photography. Sure,
it takes time to learn, and you never stop learning it.
But if you do much drafting at all, that learning pays
great dividends.

I suggest starting with AutoCAD LT. It can do
everything that a T-square and triangles and protractor
etc. can do, and it is much less expensive and easier to
learn. If you use it much at all, it will grow on you.

If the pool pump system is the *only* thing that you
ever will design, then probably best to stay with the
T-square etc. But if you want to go at all beyond that,
then go for AutoCAD LT.

[Dick Alvarez]

Oren wrote <<By the time I hit the AutoCAD learning

curve, I could just as well use a drafting board, T-
squares and some tools to design a pool pump system.

I never plan to build a space ship using AutoCAD :)>>

[harry]

On May 4, 7:27 pm, isw <i...@witzend.com> wrote:
> In article <km32bo$js...@speranza.aioe.org>,

You use flexible pipes rather than rigid ones that need all those
fittings.

[Eric Stevens]

On Sun, 5 May 2013 05:41:47 +0000 (UTC), Dick Alvarez
<alv...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:

>
> Oren wrote <<By the time I hit the AutoCAD learning
>curve, I could just as well use a drafting board, T-
>squares and some tools to design a pool pump system.
>
> I never plan to build a space ship using AutoCAD :)>>
>
> Life can be made easier in many ways, by investing in a
>learning curve. I am thankful that I learned drafting the
>old way, with drafting boards, T-squares, triangles,
>protractors, etc., then drafting machines, and finally
>life became *enormously* easier and neater and more
>accurate with CAD. Same for many modern instruments and
>machines. AutoCAD even helps me with photography. Sure,
>it takes time to learn, and you never stop learning it.
>But if you do much drafting at all, that learning pays
>great dividends.
>
> I suggest starting with AutoCAD LT. It can do
>everything that a T-square and triangles and protractor
>etc. can do, and it is much less expensive and easier to
>learn. If you use it much at all, it will grow on you.

For simple @D drafting, Visual Cadd is better than Autocad light, or
heavy. See http://www.tritools.com/ Visual Cadd will allow you to
import JPGs and then draw over the top of them on a different layer.

I speak from many years experience of pencil, ink, paper, film, and
CAD systems. But it's not free.

>
> If the pool pump system is the *only* thing that you
>ever will design, then probably best to stay with the
>T-square etc. But if you want to go at all beyond that,
>then go for AutoCAD LT.
>

But have a look at Visual Cadd: it's faster and in the long run
cheaper.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

[gen...@internet.com]

On Fri, 3 May 2013 23:22:03 -0700 (PDT), harry
<harry...@btinternet.com> wrote:

>I don't believe software exists that can do that.
>Maybe the reverse.
>This is one job for the human brain.

Some people cant take a shit without a computer these days.
A pencil (with eraser) and some paper are all that is needed.
Use the eraser when a change is needed! I've done quite a lot of
plumbing. I just measure the overall length, plan where I need a
fitting, and buy what I wrote. I add 10% to the length of pipes, and
buy at least one extra elbow, tee, 45, etc.

Using copper pipe, or CPVC, I always dry fit the thing together first
until it fit and looked right, (a little duct tape helps dry fit). When
all looks good, I solder or glue. Whatever fittings are left can be
returned to the store.

[Danny D]

On Sat, 04 May 2013 09:00:07 -0500, CRNG wrote:

> I would like the software to be able to show me what
> everything will look like after it dies a few months after I plant it.
> That way I can visualize what I'll end up with.

:)

[Roy]

Holy Shit...A really honest down-to-earth solution that makes sense, is
practical and workable. Too bad there weren't more posters like this guy.
Computer program indeed!!...who needs a computer program to "envision" a
problem that doesn't even really exist.

[Oren]

On Sun, 5 May 2013 09:14:37 -0700 (PDT), Roy <wil...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>> A pencil (with eraser) and some paper are all that is needed.
>>
>> Use the eraser when a change is needed! I've done quite a lot of
>>
>> plumbing. I just measure the overall length, plan where I need a
>>
>> fitting, and buy what I wrote. I add 10% to the length of pipes, and
>>
>> buy at least one extra elbow, tee, 45, etc.
>>
>>
>>
>> Using copper pipe, or CPVC, I always dry fit the thing together first
>>
>> until it fit and looked right, (a little duct tape helps dry fit). When
>>
>> all looks good, I solder or glue. Whatever fittings are left can be
>>
>> returned to the store.
>
>Holy Shit...A really honest down-to-earth solution that makes sense, is
>practical and workable. Too bad there weren't more posters like this guy.
>Computer program indeed!!...who needs a computer program to "envision" a
>problem that doesn't even really exist.
>
>

<giggle> When my patio roof was built, I made some "chicken
scratches" on a legal yellow paper, put a few numbers down and headed
to the permit office. Showed the smart fellers what I wanted to do
and explained my drawing <g>

Then they made copies of their mechanical drawing for footers, all the
numbers for the roof (based on Spanish tile) and handed them to me.
Issued me two permits -- one was electrical.

Bubba and me built the thing in a couple of days. Then stucco finish
and paint.

No computer or eraser :-\

[Danny D]

On Sat, 04 May 2013 19:07:33 -0500, troppo wrote:
> You mucking around with a pool pump, greywater filter,
> or does it all fit inside a boat?

Excellent post! Thank you very much!

BTW, my pumps, which are 8 feet below the pool, leak at the inlets, and
always have (about 500 gallons every few days) ... and they were put in
fitting-to-fitting so tightly that a damn professional must have done
it 'cuz they didn't waste an inch on extra piping!

I had to cut the fittings off just to unscrew them from the pumps (to
fix the leak); so, while the plumbing is off, I'm relocating the pumps
back a few feet in order to gain room, piping, & removable couplings!

> Problem ... potential lack of real dimensions.

True. I should have placed a ruler in the picture for dimensions!
They're all two inch pipes - but that isn't accurate for an OD.

> get the free copy of Dassault Systemes Draftsight.

Aha! Nice idea! I like that it works on Linux also!
http://www.3ds.com/products/draftsight/download-draftsight/

> Alternative solution? Use flexihose. Maybe use it anyway ...

So the four JPEG-to-CAD freeware programs suggested are:
1. Trimble SketchUp (not on Linux though)
http://www.sketchup.com/intl/en/download/index.html
2. Blender (open source)
http://www.blender.org/download
3. Draftsight (free with a few minor strings)
http://www.3ds.com/products/draftsight/download-draftsight/
4. Flexihose

Unfortunately, I couldn't find the site for flexihose.
Is this it?
http://www.feihu-hose.com/download/download.php?lang=en&class1=31&class2=54

[Danny D]

On Sat, 04 May 2013 19:07:33 -0500, troppo wrote:

> Paste your image into Draftsight

> horizontal and/or vertical line is actually horizontal/

> trace over all the important lines

> Check some known dimensions

> Rescale the image and superimposed lines

> Bit of mucking around will be needed to create elevation view from plan
> view. I assume that like me you aren't skilled in 3D modelling,
> otherwise you wouldn't be asking the question

Thanks for providing the nucleus for a tutorial!
I'll save this for use when testing it out.

[Danny D]

On Sun, 05 May 2013 21:31:50 +1200, Eric Stevens wrote:

> Visual Cadd will allow you to
> import JPGs and then draw over the top of them on a different layer.

I had not thought of that method prior, but Inkscape freeware
(and I'm sure Trimble SketchUp, Blender, & Draftsight) can
import the picture so we can draw over the lines also.

This would create 3D objects in a layer on top of the line drawing.

http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/12859991/img/12859991.jpg

[Tommy]

"Danny D" <Dan...@example.com> wrote

Had a job finding a supplier in US
But hereyago

http://www.contractorsdirect.com/General-Tools/Water-Pump-Accessories/Wacker-Hose-Accessories-Pumps

Cheers
Tommy

[Danny D]

On Sun, 05 May 2013 10:03:48 +1200, Eric Stevens wrote:

> Where time is money, Freeware doesn't seem to cut it.

For home use, freeware is nice because, in about two minutes,
you can change this, to this (and then start from that):

http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/12859991/img/12859991.jpg

[isw]

In article
<f626976f-3d5c-468a...@a16g2000vbx.googlegroups.com>,

Which cost how much more? And are likely not as durable.

Isaac

[George]

Agree, what the OP wants is done everyday but not with free software.
Not sure why "free" is cited so often as the main requirement for
software when someones intellectual abilities that were used to create
software allow you to save time and money.

[troppo]

Danny D <Dan...@example.com> wrote in

news:km69c6$56i$1...@speranza.aioe.org:

Hi Danny,

The sort of flexi-hose I was referring to looks like this:

http://www.reece.com.au/plumbing/products/pipe_%26
_fittings/dura_flex_hoses

What is shown is domestic plumbing stuff, eg 1/2 inch 12mm, great for
avoiding all that pipe-bending. Should be available in larger diameters,
but a lot more expensive no doubt.

Your link:
http://www.contractorsdirect.com/General-Tools/Water-Pump-
Accessories/Wacker-Hose-Accessories-Pumps
Would work, but your rig isn't easily accessible?
My suggestion would be to move the facility to a nearby shed or purpose-
built pump housing. The installer was probably acting on the perceived
customer requirement that this stuff must be hidden from view, so went
overboard with making sure it wouldn't leak. Bad mistake. Anything like
this, be it air-conditioning, pool filtering, drainage, needs to be
accessible and protected from the elements. Sooner or later the
mechanism will deteriorate and need maintenance. Also, pool pumps may be
whisper-quiet in the shop, but don't stay that way forever after :-)

[George]

The "down to earth" solution might be nifty for a small one of situation
but if you were doing it more than that it is amazing how much time and
money you can save using available computerized methods. And once you
have a library of shapes it doesn't even make sense to do it in a one of
situation.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sun, 05 May 2013 17:59:17 -0400, George <geo...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

Obviously because the function isn't worth the money asked by
"professional" software companies. There is an amazing amount of
freeware out there that is quite good. A perfect example is
"Sketchup". It's hard to beat for a 3-D modeling program for
woodworkers or homeowners and there are "professional" packages
available for those who need more function.

[k...@attt.bizz]

I did much the same with my garage but that was 20 years ago. I'd
never attempt such a thing without a 3-D modeling program, now. I
don't even write anything down, anymore. I could never read what I
wrote anyway. ;-)

[Danny D]

On Sun, 05 May 2013 17:59:17 -0400, George wrote:

> Not sure why "free" is cited so often as the main requirement for
> software when someones intellectual abilities that were used to create
> software allow you to save time and money.

Free means, among other things, that someone wrote the software to be
distributed freely.

They distribute this way on purpose. They *want* you to use their freeware.

Just like you help me, for free, and just like I write up details to
help others, for free. Just like I post pictures, for free. And, I write
up the summary, for free.

There's nothing wrong with that.

In fact, there's almost nothing you need for casual home use that isn't
already available, for free. Just ask the folks on alt.comp.freeware for
details.

[J. Clarke]

In article <isw-F850B2.14024105052013@[216.168.3.50]>, i...@witzend.com
says...

Google "PEX". Lovely stuff to work with--cut it with a knife, connect
it with a crimper.

[George]

You missed my point. I understand why software (or whatever) might be
free but I questioned why it is often the main criteria.

[George]

On 5/4/2013 2:29 PM, Oren wrote:

> On Sat, 4 May 2013 11:15:23 -0700, "Frank S" <fshe...@san.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
>>>> In fact, were I to start over, I'd make the whole thing gentle
>>>> flowing curves of bent pipe, instead of these sharp elbows.
>>>>
>>>
>>

>> My daughter designed university and industrial laboratory plans in
>> AutoCad. Seems to me a dip into the AutoCad universe might yield some
>> useful pathways.
>
> Congratulations. By the time I hit the AutoCAD learning curve, I
> could just as well use a drafting board, T-squares and some tools to

> design a pool pump system.
>

Well worth the investment even if you do casual stuff. Same thing with
say spreadsheets. Once you learn how easy it is to experiment and do
"what if" you will see what I mean.

My 78 year old neighbor took some Autocad courses at the local community
college last year and does some amazing stuff for his othger hobbies.

[George]

The problem is the OP only stated the main criteria is that software
must be free. They didn't state if this is a hobby and they are building
one of or a prototype that may be made many times in production. In the
first case cost of extra parts and manufacturability aren't even a concern.


>
> Isaac
>

[Danny D]

On Mon, 06 May 2013 07:39:52 -0400, George wrote:

> You missed my point. I understand why software (or whatever) might be
> free but I questioned why it is often the main criteria.

Oh, OK.

Well, I think KRW aptly answered that aspect of the question then.

[Danny D]

On Mon, 06 May 2013 07:48:16 -0400, George wrote:

> They didn't state if this is a hobby and they are building
> one of or a prototype that may be made many times in production.

My mistake.

It's a one-time pool plumbing repair by a homeowner who is
clearly inexperienced with pool plumbing yet who is very
experienced with freeware.

There is no absolute need for the software; and it would only
be used once (or perhaps a few times in a lifetime of typical
home repair projects).

The reason for alt.comp.freeware should be obvious as that's where
99% of the software comes from on my machine (all legitimate).

The reason for alt.home.repair should also be obvious as they
have the expertise to advise on plumbing particulars, tools,
methods, techniques, ideas, etc.

And, the reason for rec.photo.digital is, perhaps less obvious,
since that's mostly professionals; however some must be
cognizant of the freeware extant that converts JPEG photos
to 2D (and 3D) CAD drawings.

In fact, we've come up with multiple solutions, as we usually
do, which will do the job for the typical homeowner:
a) Inkscape (I used this to convert JPEG to vector DXF pencil drawing)
http://inkscape.org/download/
b) Trimble SketchUp (needs to run under Wine for Linux)
http://www.sketchup.com/intl/en/download/index.html
c) Sourceforge Blender
http://www.blender.org/download
d) Dassault Draftsight
http://www.3ds.com/products/draftsight/download-draftsight/
e) Flexihose ?
?

[Danny D]

On Sun, 05 May 2013 21:30:34 +0100, Tommy wrote:

> Had a job finding a supplier in US; but hereyago
> http://www.contractorsdirect.com/General-Tools/Water-Pump-Accessories/
Wacker-Hose-Accessories-Pumps

The picture & description at that URL ( http://tinyurl.com/dxbbodn )
looks just like my 60 feet of vacuum hose!

http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/12866318/img/12866318.jpg

[Eric Stevens]

On Mon, 06 May 2013 07:44:46 -0400, George <geo...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

As I have already pointed out, for that level of work, there is
better, cheaper, and easier to use stuff than Autocad, whether Lite or
otherwise. http://www.tritools.com/

Here are two examples from several years ago
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31088803/Engine.PDF is what I
called a 'thinking' drawing. In particular I scanned separate views of
the engine and the gearbox and after using (a Corel product, I think)
some other software to convert the raster images to DXF format I
imported them to the CAD software. That way I didn't have to draw the
engine or redraw it every time I was trying to fit a new component to
it. It was like having a real model on which I could try different
assemblies.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31088803/04-002.PDF is an entirely
different drawing produced using the same software.

These things will do what you want for a relatively small amount of
money but you will have to invest considerable time learning the ins
and outs of the software. I would question whethere or not it is worth
your effort for the limited task you have described.

>
>
>
>> I never plan to build a space ship using AutoCAD :)
>>
>

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

[Tommy]

"Danny D" <Dan...@example.com> wrote in message
news:km8shp$ihv$3...@speranza.aioe.org...

Good, I'm glad I could help :)

PS as an afterthought, I used Qualpex (I always called it qualplex) all over
the house, for the heating system and for some cold supply.
Probably a different name in teh US..
I know they do it in larger sizes but can't find it. Might I also add that
plastic piping 'needs' to be supported every few feet if elevated (or
hanging), I would recommend 6 feet.

Quote/
Cross-linking is a widely employed method of forging permanent links between
polymer chains to form an interwoven three dimensional lattice within the
pipe wall. This greatly reduces the ability of polymer to creep with time
and allows the burst resistance of Qual-PEX to be maintained almost
indefiinitely at high temperatures.


http://www.pipelife.ie/ie/products/Buildings/Hot_and_Cold/Qual_PEX_Plumbing_System.php

http://preview.tinyurl.com/dyzncxs

Cheers
Tommy

[Oren]

On Mon, 6 May 2013 15:35:31 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

>It's a one-time pool plumbing repair by a homeowner who is
>clearly inexperienced with pool plumbing yet who is very
>experienced with freeware.
>
>There is no absolute need for the software; and it would only
>be used once (or perhaps a few times in a lifetime of typical
>home repair projects).

Two people were talking. I drew a coffered ceiling on the concrete
floor with a pencil. The owner liked the basics. Bubba and me built
it.

A "freeware" carpenter's pencil!

[Square Peg]

On Sat, 4 May 2013 05:33:42 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

>I would like freeware to convert a JPG photo into whatever format I
>need so that I can "arrange" pumps and pipes around in the drawing
>to determine an efficient setup (few elbows, no pipes running over pumps,
>etc.).

Maybe you could go over to the home repair NG and see if you can find
someone to mow your lawn for free, too.

[Danny D]

On Tue, 07 May 2013 07:03:13 -0700, Square Peg wrote:

> Maybe you could go over to the home repair NG and see if you can find
> someone to mow your lawn for free, too.

A few doors down the street, my neighbor broke his leg and his
kids are off to college so I offered to help clean his pool
for him (we just had a wind storm, here in the valley).

When I see a bad cable in a friend's garage, I help him
replace the cable & adjust the doors, for free.

And, when a friend's toilet has those brown stains on them,
I bring over my pool acid and we clean it together, for free.

Same thing with the guys who write the software who offer it up
for free - expressly so that people like us will benefit.

You're the only one that thinks that nobody does anything
for free. I do it all the time (proof is in the a.h.r record
if you don't believe me).

Why don't you do something for free today, yourself, and
become a useful productive member of the community.

[nospam]

In article <kmbah9$se1$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Danny D

do you have a real job or do you just fix things in your neighborhood
for free all day long?

[George Kerby]

On 5/7/13 11:35 AM, in article kmbah9$se1$1...@speranza.aioe.org, "Danny D"

I have always said that friends who clean toilets together...

[George Kerby]

On 5/7/13 12:26 PM, in article 070520131326429666%nos...@nospam.invalid,

Gotta be a Democrat.

<steps back and ducking in anticipation of the incoming barrage>

;-)

[Oren]

On Tue, 7 May 2013 16:35:53 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

Touche`

[k...@attt.bizz]

Oh, hell no. If he were a Democrat, it would be government's job.

[George Kerby]

On 5/7/13 2:13 PM, in article 0hkio8d4g49lffk5c...@4ax.com,

LOL!

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 07 May 2013 07:03:13 -0700, Square Peg <squar...@round.hole>
wrote:

I don't see the problem, here. The guy is providing free tips for a
forum on home repair to people who want to save money by doing things
themselves instead of hiring pros. Why should he spend money on
programs if he can use freebies?

Many for-pay software programs started out as freeware. Jasc's Paint
Shop Pro was freeware. Jasc built up a following as freeware and sold
out to Corel. Forte Agent was freeware, and still has a free version,
but now charges for a better version. Adobe Photoshop and Elements
were never freeware, but free versions of both programs were available
as bundled software and free to the end user. Nero was free as
bundled software. Open Office remains freeware. I use a Tinne's
Desktop Calendar that was freeware for XP but is now $19.95 for
Windows X. I paid the $19.95 because I liked using the freeware
version. I could go on and on.

The software provider of freeware is usually offering the product as
freeware to build up a following so they can later charge. It's
marketing path.

If you can get freeware that does the job, why not?


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 07 May 2013 13:26:42 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

Do you get paid to pimp for Apple, or do you just do it for free?

[Attila Iskander]

"Danny D" <Dan...@example.com> wrote in message

news:kmbah9$se1$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

We have a nice grocery store down the street from our house, one block over.
In the mornings the delivery trucks come around our corner when they are
leaving.
It's uphill to the corner from either direction
After a fresh snowfall, both streets get icy because they are secondary and
only get the odd plow coming through. And with idiot drivers spinning their
wheels as they come uphill, it sometimes gets better ice than some skating
rinks.
So naturally when the trucks lose traction, I head out with shovel, scraper,
bucket of sand and salt, and help the trucks go on their way.
For years now, I've been getting nice boxes full of all sort of things
dropped off on my front porch in the mornings. One of the drivers found out
at the store that I like the John Macy brand of Cheddar-Asiago Cheese
crisps. Got a whole carton of those dropped off at my door one morning

You do nice things to people and it will come back to you from unexpected
directions.

[nospam]

In article <occjo8ls0mi7hd67p...@4ax.com>, Tony Cooper

<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> > Maybe you could go over to the home repair NG and see if you can find
> >> > someone to mow your lawn for free, too.
> >>
> >> A few doors down the street, my neighbor broke his leg and his
> >> kids are off to college so I offered to help clean his pool
> >> for him (we just had a wind storm, here in the valley).
> >>
> >> When I see a bad cable in a friend's garage, I help him
> >> replace the cable & adjust the doors, for free.
> >>
> >> And, when a friend's toilet has those brown stains on them,
> >> I bring over my pool acid and we clean it together, for free.
> >>
> >> Same thing with the guys who write the software who offer it up
> >> for free - expressly so that people like us will benefit.
> >>
> >> You're the only one that thinks that nobody does anything
> >> for free. I do it all the time (proof is in the a.h.r record
> >> if you don't believe me).
> >>
> >> Why don't you do something for free today, yourself, and
> >> become a useful productive member of the community.
> >
> >do you have a real job or do you just fix things in your neighborhood
> >for free all day long?
>
> Do you get paid to pimp for Apple, or do you just do it for free?

i don't pimp for them nor do they pay me. i clear up misinformation,
much of which comes from you.

is microsoft paying you?

[Danny D]

On Tue, 07 May 2013 21:06:06 -0500, Attila Iskander wrote:

> You do nice things to people and it will come back to you from
> unexpected directions.

Thank you for that story.

That's what the USENET is all about!

We all help each other - for free.

We have no expectation of payback, other than pay forward for
those of us who know what that means.

And, once in a while, good things come through the net
friendships that are made.

[Danny D]

On Tue, 07 May 2013 13:10:01 -0500, George Kerby wrote:

>> do you have a real job or do you just fix things in your neighborhood
>> for free all day long?
>
> Gotta be a Democrat.

Actually, I'm undeclared - and have been since I was 18
even though I believe in the old adage that, when you're
young, you have to be a Democrat; otherwise you have no
heart. When you're middle aged, you must be Republican,
otherwise you have no sense; and, when you age, you go
back to being a Democrat so that other people will pay
for your care. :)

[Attila Iskander]

"Danny D" <Dan...@example.com> wrote in message

news:kmcjqk$vm2$5...@speranza.aioe.org...

If the third condition is true, then you have learned nothing in your life
at all
You don't have to go back to being a liberal to take advantage of benefits
you paid for all your life with taxes.

[Danny D]

On Wed, 08 May 2013 07:35:36 -0500, Attila Iskander wrote:

> You don't have to go back to being a liberal to take advantage of benefits
> you paid for all your life with taxes

It was a joke ...

[PeterN]

Absolutely true. I live in a senior citizens community. After a snow
storm, I will clean off my neighbor's windshields. For me, their smiles
and greetings are enough reward.

--
PeterN

[PeterN]

On 5/7/2013 10:23 PM, nospam wrote:
> In article <occjo8ls0mi7hd67p...@4ax.com>, Tony Cooper

<snip>

>>
>> Do you get paid to pimp for Apple, or do you just do it for free?
>
> i don't pimp for them nor do they pay me. i clear up misinformation,

You don't seem to be doing a very good job.


--
PeterN

[George Kerby]

On 5/8/13 7:35 AM, in article kmdgjn$fe8$1...@dont-email.me, "Attila Iskander"

I like you better with each post!

:-)

[Danny D]

On Wed, 08 May 2013 15:11:45 -0400, PeterN wrote:

> For me, their smiles and greetings are enough reward.

Isn't that essentially what the USENET is all about?

I love the fact 'we' help each other!

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 07 May 2013 22:23:14 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

Clearing up "misinformation" the way you do is rolling out the
propaganda.

[Dan Espen]

You must be a commie!

Just kidding. No really.

We help each other and everyone benefits.
Why some people are uncomfortable with that is a mystery.


--
Dan Espen

[Attila Iskander]

"George Kerby" <ghost_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:CDB01BD4.9B475%ghost_...@hotmail.com...

Funny
Some people go the other way
Go figure...
:-)

[Attila Iskander]

"Dan Espen" <des...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ichaid6...@home.home...

Usually, it's the takers who are uncomfortable with that
The basis of their philosophy are:
1) Everyone is out for themselves
2) Therefore, I must be out for myself to get ahead of everyone else
(doing the same).
So when they come across people who don't operate to their rule, they get
confused and presume that the other people are idiots..

The lesson was brought home to me reading "The Last Centurion" by John
Ringo, where the main character discusses high trust and low trust
societies.
The US like most societies that originated from Western Judeo-Christian
societies of the Northern Hemisphere, is a "high trust society" where the
great majority of people understand the notion that if you come together to
help others, it actually is a social benefit that will come back to your
personal benefit sooner than later.
Those countries, that have endemic problems of graft, corruption and other
issues are "low trust societies" where the "me first - before all others",
"trust only family and clan, and even they are going to screw you over", is
the rule.
To them the notion of repeatedly investing in good deeds towards others is
wasted effort that only fools practice. They do not understand that most
important lesson from the New Testament - the parable of the Good Samaritan.

[Attila Iskander]

"Tony Cooper" <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:l5ilo8latlrl5qkd6...@4ax.com...

Why do you think the poster uses "nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>" as a nym
and addy...

[J. Clarke]

In article <kmdgjn$fe8$1...@dont-email.me>, Attila....@live.com
says...

That's the thing, you didn't pay for your own benefits, you paid for
somebody else's benefits, and now somebody else has to pay for yours.

You must be one of those who thinks that Social Security has been saving
your payments for you and investing them wisely. It hasn't. It has
loaned it all to the Federal government at very low interest and the
government has spent it all.

[Danny D]

On Thu, 09 May 2013 08:04:25 -0500, Attila Iskander wrote:

> The lesson was brought home to me reading "The Last Centurion" by John
> Ringo, where the main character discusses high trust and low trust
> societies.

Interesting. The USENET is a high-trust society, for the most part;
and certain groups, such as the three on this post, are all high-trust
USENET newsgroups.

When we get help, we pay it forward ...

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Thu, 9 May 2013 12:51:33 -0400, "J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net>
wrote:

>In article <kmdgjn$fe8$1...@dont-email.me>, Attila....@live.com
>says...
>>
>> "Danny D" <Dan...@example.com> wrote in message
>> news:kmcjqk$vm2$5...@speranza.aioe.org...
>> > On Tue, 07 May 2013 13:10:01 -0500, George Kerby wrote:
>> >
>> >>> do you have a real job or do you just fix things in your neighborhood
>> >>> for free all day long?
>> >>
>> >> Gotta be a Democrat.
>> >
>> > Actually, I'm undeclared - and have been since I was 18
>> > even though I believe in the old adage that, when you're
>> > young, you have to be a Democrat; otherwise you have no
>> > heart. When you're middle aged, you must be Republican,
>> > otherwise you have no sense; and, when you age, you go
>> > back to being a Democrat so that other people will pay
>> > for your care. :)
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> If the third condition is true, then you have learned nothing in your life
>> at all
>> You don't have to go back to being a liberal to take advantage of benefits
>> you paid for all your life with taxes.
>
>That's the thing, you didn't pay for your own benefits, you paid for
>somebody else's benefits, and now somebody else has to pay for yours.

That's the contract.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Thu, 9 May 2013 17:22:37 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

Not at all. There is no "risk" or "cost", so therefore no "trust". Do
you buy from spammers?

[Danny D]

On Thu, 09 May 2013 13:58:25 -0400, krw wrote:

> Not at all. There is no "risk" or "cost", so therefore no "trust".
> Do you buy from spammers?

Well, you have a point that alt.comp.freeware is filled with
spammers; but alt.home.repair is a wonderfully experienced
collection of homeowners who help each other - and -
rec.photo.digital is renown for the professionals who frequent
it's hallowed threads.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Thu, 9 May 2013 18:25:52 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

The point being that there isn't trust because there is nothing at
risk; nothing *to* trust.

[Robert Macy]

On May 4, 6:27 am, Danny D <Dan...@example.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 04 May 2013 09:38:15 +0000, Chris Malcolm wrote:
> > there are several pipe planner software systems that do this
>
> Thanks.
>
> I would think there must be software that does this; and I was
> thinking about the problem at night - so the idea hit me to
> plan by looking at a photograph.
>
> It's daylight now - so I'll do it by eye again.
>
> Still ... it would be very useful to have the software, simply
> because it must exist, for planning purposes.
>
> For example, every elbow costs in inefficiency, and every foot
> of pipe costs the builder a dollar. Certainly if they can
> eliminate a connection or two, it saves them double that.
>
> In fact, were I to start over, I'd make the whole thing gentle
> flowing curves of bent pipe, instead of these sharp elbows.

I vaguely remember attending an ''example' class of an ANSYS software
product that does this. It looked a lot like ProE competitor with
rotatable drawings and presentations. The presentations looked like 3D
renditions showing 'floating' pipes, ducting, and such. Even wiring.
This software was for large architectural buildings, like high rise [I
think]

[Robert Macy]

On May 4, 6:27 am, Danny D <Dan...@example.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 04 May 2013 09:38:15 +0000, Chris Malcolm wrote:
> > there are several pipe planner software systems that do this
>
> Thanks.
>
> I would think there must be software that does this; and I was
> thinking about the problem at night - so the idea hit me to
> plan by looking at a photograph.
>
> It's daylight now - so I'll do it by eye again.
>
> Still ... it would be very useful to have the software, simply
> because it must exist, for planning purposes.
>
> For example, every elbow costs in inefficiency, and every foot
> of pipe costs the builder a dollar. Certainly if they can
> eliminate a connection or two, it saves them double that.
>
> In fact, were I to start over, I'd make the whole thing gentle
> flowing curves of bent pipe, instead of these sharp elbows.

Just remember I saw where a laser scanner was sit inside a room and
software then produced blueprints. But don't remember the company
name, perhaps try real estate users.

[J. Clarke]

In article <5qono8ljh5nimrq07...@4ax.com>, k...@attt.bizz
says...

>
> On Thu, 9 May 2013 12:51:33 -0400, "J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <kmdgjn$fe8$1...@dont-email.me>, Attila....@live.com
> >says...
> >>
> >> "Danny D" <Dan...@example.com> wrote in message
> >> news:kmcjqk$vm2$5...@speranza.aioe.org...
> >> > On Tue, 07 May 2013 13:10:01 -0500, George Kerby wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>> do you have a real job or do you just fix things in your neighborhood
> >> >>> for free all day long?
> >> >>
> >> >> Gotta be a Democrat.
> >> >
> >> > Actually, I'm undeclared - and have been since I was 18
> >> > even though I believe in the old adage that, when you're
> >> > young, you have to be a Democrat; otherwise you have no
> >> > heart. When you're middle aged, you must be Republican,
> >> > otherwise you have no sense; and, when you age, you go
> >> > back to being a Democrat so that other people will pay
> >> > for your care. :)
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> If the third condition is true, then you have learned nothing in your life
> >> at all
> >> You don't have to go back to being a liberal to take advantage of benefits
> >> you paid for all your life with taxes.
> >
> >That's the thing, you didn't pay for your own benefits, you paid for
> >somebody else's benefits, and now somebody else has to pay for yours.
>
> That's the contract.

Not the way it was sold and not the impression that most people have.
And not long-term viable with a declining population.

[J. Clarke]

In article <kmg6ns$64g$2...@dont-email.me>, Attila....@live.com
says...

Because he's not creative enough to come up with a spamdump account.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sun, 12 May 2013 14:10:55 -0400, "J. Clarke"

That makes the contract all the more binding.

>And not long-term viable with a declining population.

That's not the problem.

[J. Clarke]

In article <5i80p8t0mi4iakoub...@4ax.com>, k...@attt.bizz
says...

So you're fine with deceptive marketing as long as the fine print screws
the buyer.

> >And not long-term viable with a declining population.
>
> That's not the problem.

Tell that to the Japanese.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sun, 12 May 2013 22:22:54 -0400, "J. Clarke"

You certainly don't read well.

>> >And not long-term viable with a declining population.
>>
>> That's not the problem.
>
>Tell that to the Japanese.

That's not their problem, either.

[Danny D]

On Tue, 07 May 2013 21:59:19 -0400, Tony Cooper wrote:

> If you can get freeware that does the job, why not?

UPDATE:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/12918763/img/12918763.jpg

That's a picture of the final assembly where the combination
goal was to repipe pool plumbing to both eliminate a leak at
the two pump inlets and to (at the same time) make it easier
to repair the pumps in the future - and (at the same time)
to reduce the number of elbows in the system as there were
far too many (all of which were bunched up too close together)
and, at the same time, to eliminate any lines going over on
top of the baskets (which made it hard to open the covers).

[J. Clarke]

In article <rul0p8tpfmb7bn0ui...@4ax.com>, k...@attt.bizz

You should try writing more clearly. If you meant something clever you
failed.

> >> >And not long-term viable with a declining population.
> >>
> >> That's not the problem.
> >
> >Tell that to the Japanese.
>
> That's not their problem, either.

Then perhaps you should contact their government and explain to it what
their problem really is, since you seem certain that they are incorrect
in their assessment of the situation.

[Ashton Crusher]

On Wed, 8 May 2013 04:20:36 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 07 May 2013 13:10:01 -0500, George Kerby wrote:
>
>>> do you have a real job or do you just fix things in your neighborhood
>>> for free all day long?
>>
>> Gotta be a Democrat.
>
>Actually, I'm undeclared - and have been since I was 18
>even though I believe in the old adage that, when you're
>young, you have to be a Democrat; otherwise you have no
>heart. When you're middle aged, you must be Republican,
>otherwise you have no sense; and, when you age, you go
>back to being a Democrat so that other people will pay
>for your care. :)

The first two stages are more or less true but stage three for people
who have really learned anything (and it could happen anytime between
19 and 99) is that there isn't a dime's worth of difference between
the two parties except for HOW they plan to screw you and you are
better off to not support either of them. Virtually ALL this countries
problems stem from things the Federal Gvt has done. That's why when
people are surveyed they invariably rank their local gvt as OK, their
state gvt as barely adequate, and the Federal gvt as a disaster area.
The best thing that could happen to the US would be for ALL of our
federal elected reps (not the bureaucrats) to disappear and not be
replaced for at least a couple years. The country would get along
just fine without them.

[Ashton Crusher]

On Mon, 13 May 2013 03:18:26 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

Looks good.

[Danny D]

On Sun, 12 May 2013 22:07:01 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

>>UPDATE:
>> http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/12918763/img/12918763.jpg
> Looks good.

Thanks.

It was hard, for me, as I've never done this before.

[Alfred Fox]

On Sun, 12 May 2013 22:04:49 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

> there isn't a dime's worth of difference between the two parties
> except for HOW they plan to screw you

Son: "Dad, what's the difference between a Republican & a Democrat?"
Dad: "Well son, the Democrat says he will take all your money and
give it to other people; and he does."
Son: So what does the Republican do?
Dad: "Ah, Son, the Republican is totally different. He says he won't
take all your money to give it to other people. But he does".

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 13 May 2013 00:54:25 -0400, "J. Clarke"

No clever intentions at all. You simply are incapable of reading
what's written.

>> >> >And not long-term viable with a declining population.
>> >>
>> >> That's not the problem.
>> >
>> >Tell that to the Japanese.
>>
>> That's not their problem, either.
>
>Then perhaps you should contact their government and explain to it what
>their problem really is, since you seem certain that they are incorrect
>in their assessment of the situation.

Many have. Like ours, theirs is interested things other than getting
their economy going.

[Attila Iskander]

<k...@attt.bizz> wrote in message
news:irono85smcmj1kl2a...@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 9 May 2013 17:22:37 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 09 May 2013 08:04:25 -0500, Attila Iskander wrote:
>>
>>> The lesson was brought home to me reading "The Last Centurion" by John
>>> Ringo, where the main character discusses high trust and low trust
>>> societies.
>>
>>Interesting. The USENET is a high-trust society, for the most part;
>>and certain groups, such as the three on this post, are all high-trust
>>USENET newsgroups.
>
> Not at all. There is no "risk" or "cost", so therefore no "trust".

If there was no trust, there would be no discussion on how to do DIY
After all, if you didn't trust anyone else why bother learning from them
And that is EXACTLY what occurs in low-trust societies

And yes, there is both risk and cost
If you take the advse of someone who may not have good knowledge, you run
the risk of having greater cost than if you had someone do it for you

> Do you buy from spammers?

What has that got to do with the price of tea in China
Being high trust does not mean being stupid
Even high trust societies need to and do, follow the rule "Trust but verify"
That is very different from the rule
"Do not trust unless...(insert restrictive criteria here",
or even worse the rule
"Do not trust, since everyone is in it for themselves..
and will screw you over if they can.."
Which are both signs of low trust societies.



>

[Attila Iskander]

<k...@attt.bizz> wrote in message
news:1vioo8tbvpln53677...@4ax.com...

Completely bogus point as demonstrated elsewhere

[Attila Iskander]

"J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.2bf59e1d6...@news.newsguy.com...

Don't presume stupid things just to justify your ignorance

[Attila Iskander]

<k...@attt.bizz> wrote in message
news:rul0p8tpfmb7bn0ui...@4ax.com...

But he sure needs to produce strawmen every time he posts

[Attila Iskander]

<k...@attt.bizz> wrote in message
news:3222p81mj1ctr1nnf...@4ax.com...

he's really not trying to "discuss"anything
All he's doing is making strawmen argument to "corner" you and thus be able
to imagine that he's right.