Higher SEER = More Problems? Worth it?
RAJ
Contractors they survey say units with a SEER of 11 to 14 tend to hold
up best. SEER of more than 14 tend to be more complex, with more that
can go wrong.
Any opinion on this? It seems that anything above SEER 14 is just a
waste of money. Are you really going to save that much more a month to
make it worth it? And will it give you more trouble?
RAJ
mrkool
In my opinion, having been an HVAC Contractor for 30+ years, I tend to
agree
that 14 seer or more is a waste of money as it would take a very long
time to
pay-back the difference, than say a 13 seer, which is what I put in my
own home.
I'm sure the day will come when electric and gas will be so expensive,
we'll
wish we had a 30 seer, but until at least 2010, when R-22 will be
phased out,
I'll be installing 13 seer cooling and heat pumps and more than ever
putting
in dual fuel systems, 96 AFUE gas furnaces and 13 seer heat pumps.
I've been using Amana units for awhile now, and really like the varible
speed
blowers, biggest improvement in heating and cooling since electronic
ignition in plae of the pilot light.
You can get a lot of info at http://www.hvac-talk.com/ the pictures on
the wall of shame
are pretty good to.
Take care,
mrkool
Noon-Air
on the a/c or a heat pump is really pretty quick as we have 9 months of
summer here as opposed to 9 months of winter sports where you would actually
see a payback from a 96% AFUE furnace.
"RAJ" <jaristo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1149905733....@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
hal...@aol.com
buy a long term MANUFACTURERS warranty. Around here 10 year is common.
that way service costs are minimal
m Ransley
is not linear increasing but is less for each Seer number increase to
figure your cost and payback. Some manufacturers simple units go above
14 my lennox is 15 seer. It also depends on hours per year used,
location and total $ you pay to AC. Run your numbers and figure in a
doubling of electric cost for 10 yrs out, every house and location are
different.
aka-SBM
Thats because the AVERAGE contractor has no damn clue about higher SEER
units, and the extra control board scares the hell out of the uneducated.
Instead of 5 or 6 wires to the outside unit, its now got suddenly 10 or 12
and they are panicked...OMG..where does this one go? Talking heat pump
there..
On straight AC, instead of just the two control wires, now its got 6...and
its soooooooo complicated....
Of course, with proper training, and proper install practice, they are now,
to some of us..as simple as the old ones, and we are NOT seeing any issues
with the 16, and 18 SEER units.
AS far as the money savings goes, its like when fuel goes up an extra penny,
and some fool drives all over town to save 10 cents on a fill up, but yet,
he spends a buck in gas looking for the cheap stuff, or the neighbor up the
road that was only getting 15MPG in his paid for fairly new SUV but goes out
and spends 30 grand on a car that wont even get twice that, but it looked
good on paper.
And the fuel savings sure wont justify the new car payment.
And then there is the contractor that is scared of the new refrigerant. OF
COURSE its bad..LOL...of course its gonna fail sooner..of COURSE hes got to
get new training and tools, and its not cheap.
You have some contractors that are so scared of the new stuff, that they
price it so far out of the ballpark, that you dont want it..There is a
company here that flat out refuses to install R410a equipment as long as he
can get R22 units. Thats great..whatever floats his boat. He has effectively
cut his market by more than half, and of course hes not gonna get the proper
training that a legitimate contractor was getting 3 years ago to get ready
for the fact that R22 is a dinasaur. Its times up..in 4 years, its not even
going to be made in the US. Why not go on and learn your future now, than to
wait and allow it to bite you when everyone else that had a clue went on,
started training, and is now confident with the new tech?
Screw Consumer Reports..never seen a single report in there that was
applicable to anything I owned. Product X, bad..according to them, yet no
one I knew or if I owned it, gave a moments problem.
You know with CR its about money right?
Jay Stootzmann
planning for energy costs to double at LEAST within the next 10 years.
"RAJ" <jaristo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1149905733....@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
DIDO
then it is for consumer, however every body got they own opinion
Few years ago when solar panels came out it was thing of future
Yes there is some benefits in some area but does the consumer
actually benefit from it or just break even? can you actually take
anybody word for it like contractor who is making living on it
or some one who made full of him self by installing some thing
that barely got savings from it to pay for maintenance
or manufacture who is trying to benefit from it.
I am sorry but you are the one who must decide and pay for it
Good Luck from Dido
"RAJ" <jaristo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1149905733....@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
jzjz
http://www.thestuccocompany.com/maintenance/Re-Higher-SEER-More-Problems-Worth-it-118073-.htm
:
I agree. This 30+ Year contractor is just running his mouth without
really thinking. He probably lives in a little house with $100 a month
ac/heating bills. If you have a small heating or AC bill, than cutting a
small bill in 1/2 won't help pay it back very fast.
However I have a huge problem. I have 5500 square feet and I'm seeing $500
to $600 bills with this piece of junk 12 seer york I have. If those bills
were cut in 1/2 it would save about $250 a month. It would pay for itself
in about 2 years. There's at least $5000 a year spend on heating an air
conditioning here and it's an electric nightmare. Back when electric was
more affordable it wasn't too bad. But they raised our electric rates by
over 60% in one year!
I'm aware that a 24 seer probably wouldn't really cut the bill in 1/2, but
it at least gives me hope that it would pay for itself in a reasonable
time. If not in 2 years then maybe 4 or 5. Even if it were 6 or 7 it
would be worth the chance on it. I just wish I knew the exact figures..
Tony Hwang
First thing first, is your house well insulated and air tight?
jzjz
:
RAJ wrote:
> RAJ
-------------------------------------
I think this is their speculation and have nothing to base it on since the
other units are so new. Also money is being lost ever month on 11 SEER
untis due to the inefficiency. It depends on what their original bills
are like. I've noticed a lot of contractors are LIARS and are always
protecting THEIR interests. If it means more training or a complex unit,
they tend to advise against that for their own selfish reasons. This fogs
the issue some.
Tony Hwang
A contractor who doesn't keep up with hi-tech. stuffs with ongoing
proper training won't really understand what they are dealing with. Like
automotive mechanic who does not understand basic electronics.
When I had my a/c unit installed I wanted to have wireless thermostat.
The guy did an excellent install job but had no clue about wireless
stuffs. At least he was honest to tell me that. I installed 'stat and
sort of gave him a quick run down. Of course complex equipment needs
more maintenance for sure. Without proper knowledge/experience dealing
with complexity it can get messy. My unit is SEER 15. I need cooling
barely 2 months a year.
Steve
"jzjz" <jz33040_at_y...@foo.com> wrote in message
news:761a3$4b42b250$45499b77$33...@news.flashnewsgroups.com...
The only one who can tell you is a local tech..... and the tech should be
able to show your actual ROI numbers at todays utility rates.
cjt
> jzjz had written this in response to
> http://www.thestuccocompany.com/maintenance/Re-Higher-SEER-More-Problems-Worth-it-118073-.htm
> :
> I agree. This 30+ Year contractor is just running his mouth without
> really thinking. He probably lives in a little house with $100 a month
> ac/heating bills. If you have a small heating or AC bill, than cutting a
> small bill in 1/2 won't help pay it back very fast.
>
> However I have a huge problem. I have 5500 square feet and I'm seeing $500
> to $600 bills with this piece of junk 12 seer york I have.
It's pretty hot where I live, but those numbers sound high to me. I
suspect you need more insulation, and probably some patches on your
ductwork. I'm also a fan (no pun intended) of radiant barriers.
Existential Angst
news:hhudvu$4jv$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Oh jesus, give it up, already.....
and the tech should be
> able to show your actual ROI numbers at todays utility rates.
He should, eh? How bout YOU?? Proly not.
To the OP:
iirc, energy consumption is directly proportional to the eer rating. So,
theoretically, a 24 seer should use half the energy of your 12, assuming it
really is 24.
Plus, if it's got a heat pump, you'll likely save with that as well.
Plus, it seems these newer units are very quiet -- at least the
mitsubishi/fujitsu "suitcases" -- the fujitsu my neighbor has is *super*
quiet -- you couldn't hear it if it were under a dining room table during
dinner.
So, depending on how much you actually use it, you can do the calcs
yourself, just from the claimed eers and your current usage and $ per kwhr.
As others have said, insulation makes a big diff -- as does good zoning,
which is easier said than done with A/C.
You might consider a bunch of mini-splits instead of one central A/C unit --
not the cheapest way to go initially, but with the zoning inherent in
minisplits, you may save bundles way beyond even the eer diffs.
--
EA
>
>
bud--
> jzjz had written this in response to
> http://www.thestuccocompany.com/maintenance/Re-Higher-SEER-More-Problems-Worth-it-118073-.htm
Note that the original question comes from June 2006
Jon Danniken
People at the suckocompany are a few sandwiches short of a picnic.
Jon
Existential Angst
news:6c256$4b42e20f$cde8d56c$96...@DIALUPUSA.NET...
Yeah, but the cross-post to alt.hvac proves, once again, that these assholes
have absolutely nothing useful to say.
I'm sure Steve's perennial bleat, "See you
authorized/licensed/in-need-of-beer-money hvac tech" was really effing
helpful, eh?
Tony Hwang seems like a nice guy, but I fear there is some blood relation to
Stormin Mormon -- could be, what with Stormin's dozen or so wives, and proly
50+ kids he cain't keep track of.....
--
EA
Tony Hwang
I never met a bad Mormon yet. One is my close neighbor. Actually his
name is Smith.
Stormin Mormon
returned. I've been impressed that you are polite, and
thoughtful. I've never met a bad Hwang. Actually, can't say
as I've met one in person in any form.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Tony Hwang" <drag...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:JgI0n.2338$ZB2....@newsfe13.iad...
Real Pisser
wow, what a coinkydink, as agent Sealey Booth would say. Joseph?
Existential Angst
news:hhvjqr$3el$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Goodgawd.... mebbe it's the water.... mebbe they're both drinking the same
water....
--
EA
>
>
Noon-Air
>> "bud--"<remove....@isp.com> wrote in message
>> news:6c256$4b42e20f$cde8d56c$96...@DIALUPUSA.NET...
>>> jzjz wrote:
>>>> jzjz had written this in response to
>>>> http://www.thestuccocompany.com/maintenance/Re-Higher-SEER-More-Problems-Worth-it-118073-.htm
>>>
>>> Note that the original question comes from June 2006
>>
>> Yeah, but the cross-post to alt.hvac proves, once again, that these
>> assholes
>> have absolutely nothing useful to say.
>>
>> I'm sure Steve's perennial bleat, "See you
>> authorized/licensed/in-need-of-beer-money hvac tech" was really effing
>> helpful, eh?
OK... EA.... use your crystal ball and tell us where the OP is located, and
what type of system he has as well as the type of construction, how much
insulation, and his electric rates, then tell us site unseen what he needs
to do to reduce his power usage. Then tell us if its worth his time and
money to go to a high SEER system, or not.
Put up or shut up
Existential Angst
news:hi0ohd$m6u$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
You have contributed, uhhh, just what?? Oh, that's right... ZERO!
And now, you want me to show you how to calculate ROI??
Much of the crap you posted is not necessary. He needs to know his current
usage, his expected usage after the conversion (presumably based on eer),
and the cost of the conversion -- nada mas.
The last pc of info unfortunately has to come from one of you incompetent
and your ilk.
So yeah, if he gets an estimate from one of you ripoffs for the job, I, or
anyone else (except you all) can calculate the feasibility.
Insulation is always an issue, but not relevant to the comparison at hand.
Geez, when will get past the apprentice level?
But here is proly the inneresting point:
What is an acceptable time period for full roi?
If the roi = the life expectancy of the new unit, you have essentially a
break-even point, ie, nothing lost/gained financially. If there are other
benefits to the conversion, then this becomes more incentive to do it,
despite the break-even: better comfort, more reliability, *less noise*,
etc.
So if the roi is additionally under the lifespan of the new unit, then it
becomes that much more worthwhile.
The Q is, then, can one spare the cash? And if not, can the roi handle the
financing charges?
--
EA
>
>
Don Ocean
Joseph Smith 11,234 Jr ? ;-p
Hermann
> Thanks for the kind words, Mr. Hwang. The respect is
> returned. I've been impressed that you are polite, and
> thoughtful. I've never met a bad Hwang. Actually, can't say
> as I've met one in person in any form.
Isn't a Hwang what the Mormons play with when they are not married?
>
Michael Dobony
> jzjz had written this in response to
> http://www.thestuccocompany.com/maintenance/Re-Higher-SEER-More-Problems-Worth-it-118073-.htm
> :
> I agree. This 30+ Year contractor is just running his mouth without
> really thinking. He probably lives in a little house with $100 a month
> ac/heating bills. If you have a small heating or AC bill, than cutting a
> small bill in 1/2 won't help pay it back very fast.
>
> However I have a huge problem. I have 5500 square feet and I'm seeing $500
> to $600 bills with this piece of junk 12 seer york I have. If those bills
> were cut in 1/2 it would save about $250 a month. It would pay for itself
> in about 2 years. There's at least $5000 a year spend on heating an air
> conditioning here and it's an electric nightmare. Back when electric was
> more affordable it wasn't too bad. But they raised our electric rates by
> over 60% in one year!
Thanks to the illegitimate president we now have you can look forward to
even larger increases in the near future.
Stormin Mormon
unruly child or teenager.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Hermann" <Her...@sheise.net> wrote in message
news:7qhetm...@mid.individual.net...
Stormin Mormon
make anyone feel better?
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Michael Dobony" <sur...@stopassaultnow.net> wrote in
message news:1dokprbn912en.1j0oeamv8fg0i$.dlg@40tude.net...
Existential Angst
> Hwang is the sound that the rod makes when spanking an
> unruly child or teenager.
Sheeit, then you must be in 7th Heaven, over there in Utah!!
--
EA
Real Pisser
"Don Ocean" <oc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7qheqr...@mid.individual.net...
just a brother from another mother
Existential Angst
news:4b450cff$0$4996$607e...@cv.net...
Or from a sister. Very cramped trailers, donchaknow....
--
EA
>
>
>
>
>
Tony Hwang
Hwang = 황 = 黃, Got it? Speaking of marriage, I can trace back my whole
clan back to early 14th century. BTW, I am 37th generation. I have
document, the whole thing on two DVD set. Periodically
updated/published/distributed from clan Hq. based in Seoul, Korea(my
home town) Can you or your family match it? Do you know who you are?
Red Green
Yes we know who we are. We are...
Left to right: Stormin Mormon, Oren & Nate. I'm not in it of course
because I'm taking the picture.
Tony Hwang
> Tony Hwang<drag...@shaw.ca> wrote in
> news:Kjb1n.17946$0U1....@newsfe16.iad:
>
>> Hermann wrote:
>>> Stormin Mormon wrote:
>>>> Thanks for the kind words, Mr. Hwang. The respect is returned. I've
>>>> been impressed that you are polite, and thoughtful. I've never met a
>>>> bad Hwang. Actually, can't say as I've met one in person in any
>>>> form.
>>>
>>> Isn't a Hwang what the Mormons play with when they are not married?
>>>>
>> Hi,
>> whole clan back to early 14th century. BTW, I am 37th generation. I
>> have document, the whole thing on two DVD set. Periodically
>> updated/published/distributed from clan Hq. based in Seoul, Korea(my
>> home town) Can you or your family match it? Do you know who you are?
>>
>
> Yes we know who we are. We are...
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ygq98o6
>
> because I'm taking the picture.
Yup, red and green.
Red Green
216.168.3.70:
Then of course there's the Bad Boys:
http://i48.tinypic.com/iz9t05.jpg
Left to right:
You know who you are!
Suka Midak
"Red Green" <postm...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:Xns9CF8DE30D...@216.168.3.70...
> Tony Hwang <drag...@shaw.ca> wrote in
> news:Kjb1n.17946$0U1....@newsfe16.iad:
>
>> Hermann wrote:
>>> Stormin Mormon wrote:
>>>> Thanks for the kind words, Mr. Hwang. The respect is returned. I've
>>>> been impressed that you are polite, and thoughtful. I've never met a
>>>> bad Hwang. Actually, can't say as I've met one in person in any
>>>> form.
>>>
>>> Isn't a Hwang what the Mormons play with when they are not married?
>>>>
>> Hi,
>> whole clan back to early 14th century. BTW, I am 37th generation. I
>> have document, the whole thing on two DVD set. Periodically
>> updated/published/distributed from clan Hq. based in Seoul, Korea(my
>> home town) Can you or your family match it? Do you know who you are?
>>
>
> Yes we know who we are. We are...
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ygq98o6
>
> Left to right: Stormin Mormon, Oren & Nate. I'm not in it of course
> because I'm taking the picture.
Don't forget Grandma!
http://tinyurl.com/y8zpdp6
Red Green
news:C8-dne4RfdsfydjW...@mchsi.com:
Plonk!
Posted some gross shit - literally.
aemeijers
--
aem sends, disgusted......
Steve
"aemeijers" <aeme...@att.net> wrote in message
news:E6mdnf0RBNcHxNjW...@giganews.com...
Y'all haven't yet learnt ta not click on tinyurls yet??
just damn
The Daring Dufas
> Supposing he'd been a US born natural Democrat. Would that
> make anyone feel better?
>
Our very first Affirmative Action President? We hope to
have some change left after he's gone.
TDD
Hermann
You just opened the opportunity for the Mormon recruiters to start
banging on Hwangs door. Obviously you are of a mixed ancestry as Korea
was overrun many times in history by rapist and pillagers. I met your
sister back in the day in Seoul. She was the one with the Marine Corps
tattoo on her ass. Fun lady. Is alt.home.repair a Korean NG?
Jim Elbrecht
>
>"aemeijers" <aeme...@att.net> wrote in message
>news:E6mdnf0RBNcHxNjW...@giganews.com...
>> Suka Midak wrote:
-snip-
>> Get some professional help. Seriously.
>> --
>> aem sends, disgusted......
>
>Y'all haven't yet learnt ta not click on tinyurls yet??
>
>just damn
>
Or note the 6th grade email address.
Jim
Stormin Mormon
all the spending. Where do I sign up for free money?
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@peckerhead.net> wrote
in message news:hi3sfd$71f$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Steve
"Noon-Air" <Noon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hi0ohd$m6u$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
EA.... still waiting for your answer.....
PopeyeTheSailor
http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/Higher-SEER-More-Problems-Worth-it-118021-.htm
PopeyeTheSailor wrote:
NORDYNE IQ DRIVE (AKA MAYTAG, FRIGIDAIRE, WESTINGHOUSE) 23 SEER A/C UNITS
I have owned this Maytag 23 SEER IQ Drive equipment from Nordyne (both a 3
ton & a 2 ton unit)since April 2009. I replaced two old, inefficient
systems in their entirety. I paid top dollar for this high efficiency
equipment and boy was I taken! Lots of service calls (more in 1 year than
in the 11 years I owned the older units); high humidity inside the house
(a new problem that started with the install of this equipment); noisy
fans that wake me up when the units shut down at night; no improvement in
energy efficiency at all (I have to keep the house 4 degrees cooler than
with the old equipment to keep from sweating, due to the high humidity);
equipment is sensitive to power fluctuations (computer brain flips out
every time there is a switching transient from the power company and must
be reset); and the list just goes on and on. I would NOT recommend
purchasing this product. A Trane 2 Stage system would likely be a much
better investment (note: I have never owned Trane equipment and I don't
know anyone who works for Trane - it just happens to be the alternative I
investigated before deciding to buy the IQ Drive.)
RAJ wrote:
> According to CR:
> Contractors they survey say units with a SEER of 11 to 14 tend to hold
> up best. SEER of more than 14 tend to be more complex, with more that
> can go wrong.
> Any opinion on this? It seems that anything above SEER 14 is just a
> waste of money. Are you really going to save that much more a month to
> make it worth it? And will it give you more trouble?
> RAJ
-------------------------------------
O
O
o \``/
/o `))
/_/\_ss))
|_ss))/|
|__ss))_|
|__sss))_|
|___ss))\|
|_ss))
)_s))
(`( /_s))
(_\/_s))
(\/))
Grumpy
"PopeyeTheSailor" <t_gwynn_at_ch...@foo.com> wrote in message
news:53eab$4c864761$45499b77$28...@news.flashnewsgroups.com...
That is with any piece of equipment, more things on it more problems
can be expected that is no option.
it does not matters high or low efficiency
more sophistication more problems just like your car.
Stormin Mormon
The Stucco site is not a help forum, it's an
*advertising* forum that invades real forums
(like "alt.home.repair", part of "usenet")
parasitically in order to generate free
advertising for itself, which continually
advances its search engine placement, thereby
increasing its own revenue through its click-
through advertising commissions.
So the first thing you should do is write them
an email and tell them to quit spamming.
Then try to find your way here through proper
channels. Please do a google search on "Usenet"
and post the regular way.
Existential Angst
news:53eab$4c864761$45499b77$28...@news.flashnewsgroups.com...
You didn't have any of the character-disordered ripoff dickless assholes on
alt.hvac install it, did you?
If so, there's yer problem, right there.....
But, good to have feedback on questionable technology.
The consumer takes it in the ass, left, right, and center.
--
EA
Oscar_Lives
"Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote in message news:4c87c00c$0$31283$607e...@cv.net...
Please take your fantasies to the alt.homo.sex.in.the.butt newsgroup,
Steve
EA,
If you don't like it, then *DO* something about it, instead of whining on on
the internet where nobody cares.
Get the education, get the training, get the experience, get the licensing,
build an HVAC business and grow that business for 10 - 15 years, and *SHOW*
the world how you think it should be done........otherwise, STFU.