Thermostat setting in hallway vs actual temperature in apartment
Mikepier
thermostats.
In an apartment bldg, if the T-stat is set at 70, and if the tenants
still complain its too cold, could it be the location of the T-stat
not calling for heat?
Reason I ask is that the T-stat in my Apt bldg is in a common hallway
on the 2nd floor, up high on the wall in a tamper-proof box. And on a
cold night I was down there, the actual temp in the hallway says 70
on the T-stat (T-stat does not call for heat until it drops below
70), but in the apt itself it feels colder, maybe 65. I feel as if
maybe where the T-stat is its warmer. So to compensate for this, I
raised it to 72. So far I have not heard complaints. But is this
usually a problem where T-stats are mounted in common areas, and you
have to try and find that "sweet spot?"
RBM
"Mikepier" <mike...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:f11cdd4e-0051-4d56...@v12g2000vbh.googlegroups.com...
It will be next to impossible to have even heat in the whole building using
one thermostat regardless of it's location. Currently when it's set for 70,
your apt is 65, so if you want your apt to be 70, you'll have to raise the
stat, and the temp in the hall to 75.
RicodJour
What sort of heating do you have?
R
ransley
Put it in an apartment in a locked box.
Mikepier
Gas/ steam, with cast iron radiators in the apts.
Mikepier
Thats something I wanted to avoid.
If it was a tenant I could trust and who was knowledgeable about
heating and maintenance, then maybe.
Una
thermostat in the hallway. In cold windy weather the rooms were much
colder than the hallway and the thermostat had to be set high to get
them warm enough. No big deal.
What doesn't work is if two separate apartments on different sides of
the building share a thermostat. Is that the case here?
Una
Sjouke Burry
in a room much higher than on the floor.
That themostat should have been at "living altitude".
Smart guy that landlord.
RicodJour
> > What sort of heating do you have?
>
> Gas/ steam, with cast iron radiators in the apts.
There is no way to balance a steam-heated building by adjusting a
single thermostat in all weather conditions. You're picking the
"least sucky" location for the thermostat and trying to tweak things
from there. You should make sure that everyone understands that the
radiator valve on a steam radiator does not adjust the heat. It's
binary - it's either all the way open, or all the way closed, and they
shouldn't dick around with it. People mess with the valves and that
makes your job of balancing the system frustrating.
After that point is made, then you start looking at the air vents
(they're commonly called steam vents, but they're not supposed to vent
steam, just air). They don't last forever, and they will get clogged
if you have dirty water. Hint - you do - it's the nature of the
beast. Gorton makes some excellent non-adjustable vents.
http://www.gorton-valves.com/specify.htm
There are adjustable vents that will let the tenant make some
adjustments. Radiators that you want to pull more heat should vent
air more quickly, and radiators that you want to retard the heating
should vent more slowly.
An old trick is to turn the vent upside down - that effectively
prevents air from escaping (on some air vents) and shuts off the
radiator. I do not recommend doing this. Your tenants will screw it
up and you'll be breaking out the taps to clear out the broken stub.
If you want a more expensive and more highly tweakable solution,
Honeywell, Danfoss, Macon and others all make thermostatic steam
radiator valves with controls. If it's one pipe steam, check out the
Macon OPSK (it's the only model number I know off the top of my head,
but it's a little higher priced than some other solution. Super easy
to install, and it will allow the tenant to adjust the heating rate at
a particular radiator.
There are also solutions using linked thermostats. Poke around on
heatinghelp.com for the particulars of both alternatives.
R
RicodJour
> "Mikepier" <mikep...@optonline.net> wrote in message
Right. Don't get hung up on the number on the thermostat. That
simply tells you the temperature at the thermostat. Whatever
temperature it is in the rooms that are in question, checked with a
thermometer, find the difference with the thermostat and start moving
the thermostat setting in the direction you want to go in the room.
If the room is low, adjust the thermostat upwards. Creep up on it
through several days' heating cycles.
Don't think that you're wasting money because the thermostat is
reading 80 F, or whatever. The only reading that matters is in the
occupied rooms. You need to have those rooms at the desired
temperature, regardless of what the thermostat is reading. You won't
be 'wasting' money if the thermostat is at 80 F and the rooms are at
the desired temperature. That's exactly the setting it is supposed to
be, and you'll be spending the exact amount of money to heat the place
to that temperature.
Of course a lower setting on the thermostat will decrease the heating
bill, and that's part of the reason why the thermostat was put so high
up on the wall. It's part to keep people from messing with it, and
part so the landlord could say, "Hey! It's 75 F in here, why are you
complaining about being cold?!"
R
Mikepier
When I fired up the boiler for the first time last month, I cranked it
to 80 for about an hour and checked each apt to see if the radiators
were getting hot, which they were. And I also replaced any suspect air
valves. So the radiators themselves are fine. Its just the setting on
the T-stat. This is my first winter with this bldg. The old landlord
had a Honeywell single dial T-stat set at one temp 24 hrs. Not real
energy efficient, so I replaced it with a programmable one.
I also told each tenant don't bother calling me to complain about the
heat if your A/C's are still in the windows. God I hate when people do
that.
RicodJour
> Thanks for the replies.
>
> When I fired up the boiler for the first time last month, I cranked it
> to 80 for about an hour and checked each apt to see if the radiators
> were getting hot, which they were. And I also replaced any suspect air
> valves. So the radiators themselves are fine. Its just the setting on
> the T-stat.
Did you replace the vents with all the same type/model? If you did,
the building will heat unevenly.
R
Ed Pawlowski
"Mikepier" <mike...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:f11cdd4e-0051-4d56...@v12g2000vbh.googlegroups.com...
> Just curious if anyone runs into this problem with common area
> thermostats.
>
> In an apartment bldg, if the T-stat is set at 70, and if the tenants
> still complain its too cold, could it be the location of the T-stat
> not calling for heat?
Yes, very likely.
>
> Reason I ask is that the T-stat in my Apt bldg is in a common hallway
> on the 2nd floor, up high on the wall in a tamper-proof box.
How high on the wall? That can bring the temperature up as the hot air
rises. Where is the closest radiator to the T-stat?
Have you put thermometers in the apartments to see what the actual
temperature is? Also, remember that the apartments have a high heat loss
through outside walls and windows while the common area is well insulated by
those heated apartments. You may have to set it higher to get the
apartments at proper temperature. During the day, the apartments getting
sun will be warmer also.
Tell each tenant they have to open the interior doors and run a fan to
circulate the air and then things will even out.
RicodJour
>
> Have you put thermometers in the apartments to see what the actual
> temperature is? Also, remember that the apartments have a high heat loss
> through outside walls and windows while the common area is well insulated by
> those heated apartments. You may have to set it higher to get the
> apartments at proper temperature. During the day, the apartments getting
> sun will be warmer also.
>
> Tell each tenant they have to open the interior doors and run a fan to
> circulate the air and then things will even out.
Are you serious with that suggestion, Ed? Besides the questions of
privacy, noise, and odors there's also security. I don't know anyone
that would welcome such a request. It's the landlord's responsibility
to provide heat to an apartment, not the tenant's to have to go and
get it.
R
Ed Pawlowski
"RicodJour" <rico...@worldemail.com> wrote
>> Tell each tenant they have to open the interior doors and run a fan to
>> circulate the air and then things will even out.
>
> Are you serious with that suggestion, Ed? Besides the questions of
> privacy, noise, and odors there's also security. I don't know anyone
> that would welcome such a request. It's the landlord's responsibility
> to provide heat to an apartment, not the tenant's to have to go and
> get it.
> R
Didn't think I'd need the smiley face.
Mikepier
one getting the valve that vents the quickest. All the radiators seem
to get hot at the same time.
The T-stat is on the second floor of a 3 story bldg. It is about 8 1/2
feet high on the wall, you need a ladder to get to it.
There is one big radiator on the first floor hallway.
As far as checking each apt, I did go into one apt the night I went
down there and although I did not have a thermometer, it did seem
cooler in there.
There are several 3 story apt bldgs in the area, and from what I
gather, the T-stat is in the hallways. So I think it's just a matter
of tweaking the setting to what everyone is happy with.
At least at night when everyone sleeps I programmed the T-stat to a
lower temp of 68 so I know the boiler is not on as much.
I guess I'll know when I get the next gas bill.
Ed Pawlowski
"RobertPatrick" <r...@nospammingg.com> wrote in message
news:4cdf89a6$0$10875$c3e8da3$efbd...@news.astraweb.com...
> Isn't an interior hall the place where the thermos are supposed to be?
Usually, but in a house, air circulates between rooms making it a better
representation. In my house, the closed door bedrooms are cooker than the
other rooms.
Ed Pawlowski
"Mikepier" <mike...@optonline.net> wrote
> The T-stat is on the second floor of a 3 story bldg. It is about 8 1/2
> feet high on the wall, you need a ladder to get to it.
> There is one big radiator on the first floor hallway.
That 8 1/2' mark may be a 2 degree difference, even more depending on the
path of convection. With one radiator on the bottom floor, hot air is
rising and it may be following the path right past the T-stat. Cooler air
is at the stair tread level going in the opposite direction. Take a
candle and watch the flame. When I have the wood burning stove going in the
downstairs family room, there is quite a difference in air flow in the
stairwell in the hallway.
If you leave the T-stat at that height, forget the temperature, use the
numbers as a guide to what you want to have inside the apartments. #78 on
the indicator may equal 70 degrees in the rooms.
In any case, I doubt you'll ever had every tenant happy with the temperature
at all times. I can't even do that at home iwht just the two of us.
Harry K
> "RicodJour" <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote
We need a sarcasm one :)
Harry K
Harry K
Reading this thread makes me glad I own my house. I have enough
arguments with my wife about how warm it is were in here without
having to fight about it with an apartment sup as well :).
Harry K
Una
night they get warmer than the rest of the house.
Una
aemeijers
Classic sign of a builder that cheaped out and didn't put air returns in
EVERY room like you are supposed to. It was confusing to me when I
started looking at houses other than the ones built by my father's
company, and only saw that one big-ass air return in the hallway.
--
aem sends...
Ed Pawlowski
> u...@att.net (Una) wrote in news:ibpa1m$qvv$1...@doliolum.localnet:
>
>> I have forced air heat now. That means by closing the bedroom doors at
>> night they get warmer than the rest of the house.
>>
>> Una
>>
>>
>
> farthest
> from the furnace.
They don't have to be. The system needs balancing. Even a simple thing
like partly closing the registers in other rooms to force more air to the
distant rooms.
Mikepier
> u...@att.net (Una) wrote innews:ibpa1m$qvv$1...@doliolum.localnet:
>
> > I have forced air heat now. That means by closing the bedroom doors at
> > night they get warmer than the rest of the house.
>
> > Una
>
> from the furnace.
I have forced air in my split -level home, and the BR's are actually
the warmest, even though they are furthest away from the furnace.
Probably because they are on the upper level, and heat rises.
ransley
I cant put one in the hallway, its not well heated. I cant trust
tenants either but have one that it works. Years ago I bought a
thermostat with a remote sensor and did not tell the tenant they had
the thermostat and that worked. Best is one that averages several
apartments with remote sensors
Harry K
How about isntalling thermostates in each apartment that aren't
connected to anything? Gives teh tenants a thrill thinkng they are in
control :) I have often thought of doing that in my house to cut down
on some of the "disagreements".
Harry K
Evan
Because WHEN, not IF the tenant's eventually figure out who to
complain to in the government (in my area it is the local board
of health) and an inspector comes out to check on the situation
and your fake thermostats and the psychological manipulation
of the tenants resulting from their installation will likely serve to
increase whatever fines and penalties result from the units
which are not maintaining the required temperatures deemed
necessary by the AHJ in the minimum standards for human
habitation...
Installing fake/false/dummy thermostats is a giant red flag
which says "i am a giant douche and rather than fix the
actual problem i am going to install a shiny toy on your
wall and make you think that you have some control over
your environment when in fact you do not"...
Either modernize the central heating system in your old
apartment building with a new control system which
allows you to have temperature sensors in all of the units
but allows you to retain control of the set points as the
landlord -- OR dump your old system and install electric
baseboard heating in all your units and let the tenants
pay to heat their rooms to whatever temperature they
desire...
Having a whole building heated off ONE thermostat
is insane... It DOESN'T account for the temperature
changes outside like a weather responsive controller
would NOR does it account for the fact that one side
of the building will be cooler than the other depending
on which way the wind is blowing...
You could covert your old single pipe steam system
into a hot water zoned system where each radiator
is it's own zone and could therefore have its own
thermostat in that room/space using a new controller
and some Pex piping...
Whichever way you choose to resolve this situation,
I would choose one soon and deal with it in a significant
way because the tenants can have you over a barrel
if they complain enough to the local AHJ which could
impose fines on you for your substandard system and
demand that you bring the system up to current codes
in a very rapid period of time in order for you to keep
collecting rent on what are essentially un-rentable units
because your heating system does not properly maintain
the temperatures in the habitable areas of the building...
Look at this symptom as an opportunity to invest in
your property and upgrade the heating system to be
more efficient... You choosing one setting where the
heating system maintains that temperature for one
area of the building where people are not living and
sleeping will definitely get you into trouble eventually...
~~ Evan
ransley
>
> - Show quoted text -
You dont know too much, converting a low pressure steam system to
handle the pressure of water results in leaks, which can be a major
nightmare ruining the whole operation. You have very old pipe that
never saw the pressure water will introduce, steam leaks are usualy
no big deal, water leaks are a big deal. You assume he isnt supplying
heat and runs a substandard building and that the inspector will screw
him, I dont see that. I heat a 16 unit off one thermostat, its been
that way since 1928, I guess until modern averaging units came out
building owners were insane and tenants cold? BS. He just needs to
learn about venting, and remote sensor thermostats. With todays cheap
computers and option avalaible he can cheaply add a fancy stat he can
monitor, track, chart and adjust from his home.
Harry K
>
> - Show quoted text -
You did see the smiley? I'll give you a D grade on your rant. Some
of it even approaches reality.
Harry K
Evan
LOL...
Who said anything about reusing the existing steam pipes...
You can't turn a one pipe anything system into a zoned
heating system...
However, if you had actually taken the time to read what I
wrote, I presented two modernization options for this aging
and inadequate heating system: One which would simply
upgrade the controls to be weather responsive and
accommodate UNEVEN heat loss/demand in an old
building by adding proper temperature sensors (not controls)
in the apartment units, and the better one of turning the
system into a zoned hot water system reusing the existing
radiators by fishing a Pex tubing run and return line to each
one and pairing it with it's own theromstat...
You assume that since 1928 the minimum standards for
human habitation have not changed and that there are not
additional fire and health codes that apply to rental properties...
You would be in the wrong on that one there Ransley...
A one thermostat system would NOT PASS an inspection
by the health department who investigate complaints of
inadequate heating in an apartment by placing a temperature
recorder and monitoring the temperature over several 24 hour
periods...
I don't have to assume anything about the heat this landlord
is not providing... I know that he has no idea what temperature
the units are other than when he is standing there measuring
it, which is not the same temperature it will be when it is cold
outside (below freezing) and in high winds when the building
will lose more heat; but the thermostat in the protected inner
core of the building will be satisfied and thus not fire the
boiler to provide more heat to the cold apartment units...
~~ Evan
Evan
Thanks, coming from someone who gets an F- for your own
reply, that's a compliment...
~~ Evan
Harry K
LOL
Harry K
mm
<burrynu...@ppllaanneett.nnll> wrote:
>Mikepier wrote:
>> Just curious if anyone runs into this problem with common area
>> thermostats.
>>
>> In an apartment bldg, if the T-stat is set at 70, and if the tenants
>> still complain its too cold, could it be the location of the T-stat
>> not calling for heat?
>>
>> Reason I ask is that the T-stat in my Apt bldg is in a common hallway
>> on the 2nd floor, up high on the wall in a tamper-proof box. And on a
>> cold night I was down there, the actual temp in the hallway says 70
>> on the T-stat (T-stat does not call for heat until it drops below
>> 70), but in the apt itself it feels colder, maybe 65. I feel as if
>> maybe where the T-stat is its warmer. So to compensate for this, I
>> raised it to 72. So far I have not heard complaints. But is this
>> usually a problem where T-stats are mounted in common areas, and you
>> have to try and find that "sweet spot?"
>You have been suckered. At the ceiling the temp
>in a room much higher than on the floor.
>That themostat should have been at "living altitude".
>Smart guy that landlord.
When I lived in a 49 apartment, 6 story building, the furnace didn't
seem to go by a thermostat. It had a control marked heat output.
The LL would illegally turn the heat down during the day when most but
by no means all people were at work. I had to use an electric heater
in my bedroom most of the winter. (Story about that omitted.) He also
had the photocell bypassed, so that it woudln't turn the furnace off
when the furnace room in the basement filled with smoke. One man
later told me his baby had gotten sick and died from the cold.
I broke into the furnace room, looked around, found the Heat Output
control, which was set for 5 or 6, say 5. I turned it up to 6,
removed the knob and put it back on pointing at 5. Then I closed up
the furnace room leaving no sign that I had been there. After that,
we were okay for the rest of that winter, and maybe the next winter
too. I never told any of the neighbors what I had done, because I
didn't know who could keep a secret.
Robert Green
> I broke into the furnace room, looked around, found the Heat Output
> control, which was set for 5 or 6, say 5. I turned it up to 6,
> removed the knob and put it back on pointing at 5. Then I closed up
> the furnace room leaving no sign that I had been there. After that,
> we were okay for the rest of that winter, and maybe the next winter
> too. I never told any of the neighbors what I had done, because I
> didn't know who could keep a secret.
I kept a Bic lighter and a spray can of freon when I was in a "controlled
environment" - when I wanted more heat in the winter, I applied a little
freon to the thermostat that was locked in a tamper proof box. When I
wanted more cooling in the summer, a little blast from the Bic did the
trick - until I got careless and partly melted the box. (-;
--
Bobby G.
>