Question about breaking the bead using a harbor freight bead breaker?

[Frank Baron]

I have a question about mounting and balancing tires at home that didn't
come up when I was researching this problem. If you have never mounted or
balanced your own passenger-car tires, then you won't know the answers
(most likely) but if you have, you'll know because you must have solved
this problem.

I have the Harbor Freight Pittsburgh Manual Tire Changer HF item #62317
which is mounted in concrete so that it is stable.

That tire changer comes with a "bead breaker" but the bead is just not
breaking when I used it today!
http://i.cubeupload.com/f8FCTC.jpg

I also bought a couple of Harbor Freight item #61603 Pittsburgh 24 in.
General Purpose Tire Irons.
http://i.cubeupload.com/7q7Tq0.jpg

The problem is that the harbor freight tire changer bead breaker just seems
to slip off when following the instructions.
http://i.cubeupload.com/7CdvVu.jpg

I would be glad to use the the Harbor Freight item #67403 Tire Bead Breaker
with Swan Neck:
http://i.cubeupload.com/Qcg2YR.jpg

But it doesn't come with instructions.
Have you used these goose-neck bead breakers on passenger tires?

Which way does the goose-neck go?
a. It can't fit under the rim with the finger pointing up, and,
b. It can't fit under the bead with the finger pointing down.

So how did you use this bead breaker anyway?

[Oren]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 23:45:12 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
<frank...@example.com> wrote:

>So how did you use this bead breaker anyway?

Lay the tire on ground. let the air out, remove the valve core from
the valve stem. Drive your vehicle onto the tire edge and break the
bead.

Did the guy from Harbor Freight tell you what was needed?

[Terry Coombs]

Move the top of the vertical piece (with the shoe on the bottom) closer to
the pivot on the horizontal arm . You want it to push out as well as down .
--
Snag

[Frank Baron]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 18:19:51 -0600, Terry Coombs advised:

> Move the top of the vertical piece (with the shoe on the bottom) closer to
> the pivot on the horizontal arm . You want it to push out as well as down .

I appreciate that you're staying on topic and trying to answer the question
of how to break the bead using the two bead breaker tools I pictured (and I
appreciate that you didn't give me useless redneck method jokes).

I assume you're talking about the red tire breaker (and not the black one),
but I'm not sure what you mean by "moving the top of the vertical piece".

Are you saying that the red double-arm vertical element should be as
straight up and down as possible when I'm pressing down on the red lever
handle (that is out of the picture at top)?
http://i.cubeupload.com/Qcg2YR.jpg

I don't know if I can do that because the tire can get no closer to the
vertical red tube as it is now since it *touches* the vertical red tube.

Or, do you want me to move the tire in the opposite direction, which is
*away* from the vertical tube?

I appreciate your advice - but I'm just trying to understand it because we
have a terminology issue where I don't know the names for the parts of that
red bead breaker contraption.

[Frank Baron]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 16:16:28 -0800, Oren advised:

>>So how did you use this bead breaker anyway?
>
> Lay the tire on ground. let the air out, remove the valve core from
> the valve stem. Drive your vehicle onto the tire edge and break the
> bead.
>
> Did the guy from Harbor Freight tell you what was needed?

I was going to say that I want to do it the "right" way at home.
I know all the redneck methods, so I don't really want them.
I know about the trailer hitch jack method, and the driving over it method
and the use the car as a lever method, etc.

But I just want to use the tire breaker because it is *designed* for the
job.

If you've never broken the bead of a passenger tire with a tire breaker you
won't be able to help because this is the kind of question that takes
someone who has actually done it.

Jokes about going to the tire changing shop are also out of place in this
thread (but someone will think he's funny by mentioning that).

I just am asking for an answer from someone who knows the answer.
Nothing more or less than that.

I don't mean to be rude, but I am trying to use the tire breaker and not
some redneck method.

I'm just asking how.

[Dean Hoffman]

On 12/12/16 5:45 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
> I have a question about mounting and balancing tires at home that
> didn't come up when I was researching this problem. If you have never
> mounted or balanced your own passenger-car tires, then you won't know
> the answers (most likely) but if you have, you'll know because you
> must have solved this problem.
>

Have you looked on YouTube? Ya know, the old thing about a
picture being worth one or ten thousand words?

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 23:45:12 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
<frank...@example.com> wrote:

m It's a pretty mediocre bead breaker - and even a good one often
needs to be applied to several points around the tire to knock it
down. The (cheap) breaker sometimes needs to be tied with a twisted
rope to keep them against the rim.. Helps to have it adjusted properly
too.

You are really going to need to change a lot of tires to pay for the
equipment with the money saved by not having someone else do it, and
I'll bet you ruin a few tires in the process.

If you are doing it yourself because you don't trust tire shops, "rots
'a ruck,"

If you want instructions, look at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7yz9twasEU
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUas5LIY_ok

As an apprentice mechanic in the sixties I changed hundreds of tires
with a commercial quality manual changer very similar in concept to
that machine - got it down to about 4 minutes a tire to strip and
re-install a typical 14 or 15 inch bias ply automotive tire - about
16 minutes for a full set of 4 - including removing and installing the
wheels on the car (not including putting it up on the hoist or
removing hub caps/wheel covers)

Not a whole lot faster with the air powered machines that took it's
place, but a whole lot less sweat!!!.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Move the breaker shoe part in to the first hole on the handle so
the shoe pushes out and down when you lean on the handle - as shown in
the 'tubes I referenced. The inner part of the rim needs to be against
the stop on the foot of the changer.

[Oren]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 00:35:30 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
<frank...@example.com> wrote:

>If you've never broken the bead of a passenger tire with a tire breaker you
>won't be able to help because this is the kind of question that takes
>someone who has actually done it.

I worked at a Firestone tire shop and local gas stations as a
youngster teen. Used the tools and learned the Redneck way in an
emergency when a shop with tools was not immediately available, YMMV.

We didn't have Harbor Freight tools back then.

[rbowman]

On 12/12/2016 05:16 PM, Oren wrote:
> Lay the tire on ground. let the air out, remove the valve core from
> the valve stem. Drive your vehicle onto the tire edge and break the
> bead.

I tried the bumper jack approach to bead breaking once. I jacked the '51
Chevy up just fine; the bead was not impressed.

I've done quite a few tube-type bike tires and have had more problems
getting the bead to seat than breaking it. Running a short way on the
flat tire does the trick if it's really stubborn.

[trader_4]

I did too. And I used a simple air driven machine that broke the bead.
I would think HF could duplicate that in China today for $100, make
a simple version. Man went to machines for this because to do it with
hand tools, is a pain in the ass.

[Frank Baron]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 20:09:56 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> Move the breaker shoe part in to the first hole on the handle so
> the shoe pushes out and down when you lean on the handle - as shown in
> the 'tubes I referenced. The inner part of the rim needs to be against
> the stop on the foot of the changer.

Oh. I didn't even realize, until you mentioned that, that there are holes
in the handle where we can move the breaker shovel further to the center of
the wheel or further away from the center of the wheel.

Too bad, because I don't have the SUV (I only have one spare tire right
now) as I'm doing this for a relative.

Last night, I destroyed the tire changer bead-breaking arm:
http://i.cubeupload.com/LqS6N4.jpg

It bent like it was made out of butter.

I may have to head back to Harbor Freight for this one:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ics54M.jpg

[Frank Baron]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 19:04:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman advised:

> Have you looked on YouTube? Ya know, the old thing about a
> picture being worth one or ten thousand words?

Of course I've looked on youtube.
There were plenty of mounting videos, for example, but they mostly just
showed you the end result, and none of the practical stuff that I learned
here.

Also, there are lots (and lots) of redneck methods for breaking the bead,
and a few on the HF tool.

The ones on the HF tool just showed the obvious, which is you press down
and that's it. Some even ran into the same problem I ran into which is that
the HF tool is made out of butter.
http://i.cubeupload.com/LqS6N4.jpg

I removed the bent section and will straighten it and try again:
http://i.cubeupload.com/mdLDK0.jpg

But it may be that I actually will need to buy this tool from HF:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ics54M.jpg

I also picked up some new tire valves which will be interesting to put in
since I have never done it before:
http://i.cubeupload.com/DwuIRx.jpg

[Frank Baron]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 20:07:38 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> It's a pretty mediocre bead breaker - and even a good one often
> needs to be applied to several points around the tire to knock it
> down. The (cheap) breaker sometimes needs to be tied with a twisted
> rope to keep them against the rim.. Helps to have it adjusted properly
> too.

I have to agree with you that it's a "mediocre" bead breaker because I bent
the heck out of the breaker arm last night working on the one spare tire
that I have (it's not my SUV - I'm helping a relative by doing her tires):
http://i.cubeupload.com/LqS6N4.jpg

I don't have welding equipment, but I should probably weld on stronger
steel to make the arms more rigid:
http://i.cubeupload.com/mdLDK0.jpg

> You are really going to need to change a lot of tires to pay for the
> equipment with the money saved by not having someone else do it, and
> I'll bet you ruin a few tires in the process.

I had calculated about $200 for the tools which, at about $20 per tire, is
about 10 tires. That's about two years payback time, assuming tires changed
on two cars every two years plus a flat fix once every two years per car
(which is about my rate).

So, pretty much, I'm going through 10 tires on two cars every two years so
two years from now, it will have paid for itself.

> If you are doing it yourself because you don't trust tire shops, "rots
> 'a ruck,"

Tire shops suck.
1. They don't remove BBS hubcaps with the tool (they just pry them off)
2. They don't remove all the old weights (they just put on more)
3. They don't line up the heavy (or high) spot (they just use more weight)
4. They don't pressurize the tires correctly (everyone gets the same psi)
5. They don't torque lug nuts/bolts correctly (ditto on egalitarianism)
6. I've had bent BMW rims (I think they did it but I can't prove that)

[Frank Baron]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 19:55:25 -0700, rbowman advised:

> I tried the bumper jack approach to bead breaking once. I jacked the '51
> Chevy up just fine; the bead was not impressed.

Just to let folks know what does *NOT* work, this black swan-neck bead
breaker bar from Harbor Freight is utterly useless also.
http://i.cubeupload.com/oiD34u.jpg

You can't get any purchase anywhere with it. You may as well use a butter
knife for all it does.

I'm a bit mad at HF because the ad says it's for cars but it's not:
http://www.harborfreight.com/tire-bead-breaker-with-swan-neck-67403.html

The reviews tell us that it is only for certain types of trucks and
tractors with a "lock" bead (whatever that is).
REVIEW QUOTE: It is meant to break the bead from lock rings on a loader
tire

I don't know what a "loader tire" is, nor what a "lock ring" is for such a
tire, but I do (now) know emphatically that this swan-neck bead breaker bar
is utterly useless for passenger car tires.

[Stormin' Norman]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 18:53:06 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
<frank...@example.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 20:07:38 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:
>
>> It's a pretty mediocre bead breaker - and even a good one often
>> needs to be applied to several points around the tire to knock it
>> down. The (cheap) breaker sometimes needs to be tied with a twisted
>> rope to keep them against the rim.. Helps to have it adjusted properly
>> too.
>

When working with automotive size tires, makes sure the tire is warm
(put it in the heated part of the house, if you are in a cold
environment, for a while before trying to break the bead).

Make sure you have removed the valve stem core.

Put a little diluted liquid soap where the rim meets the tire.

If possible, stand on the area of the tire where you are attempting to
break the bead. This will add some additional force without exerting
any effort.

We use our HF bead breaker for tractor and other yard equipment tires,
some of them are pretty large.

[Frank Baron]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 20:07:38 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> If you want instructions, look at
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7yz9twasEU
> or
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUas5LIY_ok

I should be clear that I already know how to go through the motions.
The problem is what to do when the bead won't break.

In that first video above the guy used the same tool that I had:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7yz9twasEU

He mounted the tire changer on 2x3s which was a different way of doing it,
and he did a tougher tire than the rest of the videos used.

He used a stronger-ply sidewall, and said that the bead was "really really
difficult" to break off the wheel. He also bent his bead breaker bar like I
did. So, the tool is really too weak for a formidable SUV tire.

He said "car tires would be way easier" than his truck tires that he did.
He found putting the tires on was easier than was breaking the bead of the
truck (SUV) tires.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the tool is stressed with SUV tires, and that my
technique is sound. I just have to find another way to break the SUV tires
so I'll probably pick up a single-purpose bead breaker at HF this week.

[Frank Baron]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 19:04:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman advised:

> Have you looked on YouTube? Ya know, the old thing about a
> picture being worth one or ten thousand words?

This video uses the same tool that I have:
https://youtu.be/_J_2SD-snd0

And he explained a bit about how the bead breaker shovel bends like mine
did.

Unlike the other video, at least his beads popped off with a sound, so you
know he was really breaking a bead.

That guy also used a 3/8ths in bolt which was too long!
He didn't use the washers that the previous guy did with the drop-in
anchors.

So it looks like everyone has the same problem that you need 2-2/4 inch
bolts and not a quarter inch either way but none of them bother to mention
that (so you have to know to look for it which means you have to already
know about it to know to look for it).

But, overall, the tire he had was a low profile tire which is totally
different from a SUV high profile tire, so, for bead breaking the video was
useless.

[Frank Baron]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 20:07:38 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> If you want instructions, look at
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7yz9twasEU
> or
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUas5LIY_ok

Thanks for those links.

Watching this video first, it's actually hilarious in one way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUas5LIY_ok

He's using an entirely different model tool from HF (it has a completely
different geometry than the one I have) and he's doing a brand new 14-inch
passenger-car tire which even he said in the video is super easy.

In addition, he welded stuff onto his tire changer (he didn't say exactly
what he welded though) and his tire changer is totally different than mine
in that he doesn't have those two weak arms that bent on mine.
http://i.cubeupload.com/LqS6N4.jpg

His has a steel tube (which will certainly be stronger).

But the non-realistic part of his video was that he used a brand new tire!

So all he did was press down like he was pressing his finger into butter,
and the bead broke (in fact, the bead was already broken because there was
absolutely no popping sound). He even stepped on the rest of the tire to
get the rest of the bead, which means that he was just going through the
motions.

It's fine that he was just going through the motions, but I already knew
all the motions.

But he also bolted his HF tool to concrete (his bolt hole dimensions are
wrong though since nothing larger than 3/8ths will fit in the pre-drilled
holes of the tool legs).

He used the same threaded anchors that I did, so that's nice to know.
And, he didn't mention it, but you can see that he stacked a shitload of
washers under the bolt head, which means he had the same problem that I
have which is you need 2-3/4-inch long bolts, but you can only easily get
2-1/2 or 3-inch bolts (he probably used the 3-inch bolts).

So, it was a useful video, but not the same model tire changer as I have,
and, his test case was so easy that it simply showed what we already know
which is you press down on the bar with the bead shovel in the bead.

He does another tire at time 937 but it's just as easy but at least we
"hear" the pop of the bead, which means this bead was actually seated:
https://youtu.be/bUas5LIY_ok?t=937

The video is good for "instructions" for going through the motions, but
it's not useful when there is a problem breaking the bead since the bead
came off like it was buttered.

The guy blows up a tire at time 1408, which is certainly not standard
procedure!
https://youtu.be/bUas5LIY_ok?t=1408

[Frank Baron]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 19:14:35 +0000, Stormin' Norman advised:

> We use our HF bead breaker for tractor and other yard equipment tires,
> some of them are pretty large.

Which bead breaker do you use?

Is it this one?
http://i.cubeupload.com/ics54M.jpg

[dpb]

On 12/12/2016 5:45 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
...

<http://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-COATS-40-40-TIRE-CHANGER...

at $60+/- at the moment...keep watching/looking and can eventually find
a usable changer that will actually work.

[Stormin' Norman]

Yes, except the base is painted orange, I assume it is the older
version.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

It is every bit as crappy as the one on the changer

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

By the time you are done you will have spent as much as having all
your tires professionally changed for the rest of your life (unless
you are a teenager with a heavy foot) and you STILL won't be able to
change yourtires ----

[Oren]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 15:56:13 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

> By the time you are done you will have spent as much as having all
>your tires professionally changed for the rest of your life (unless
>you are a teenager with a heavy foot) and you STILL won't be able to
>change yourtires ----

At least HF makes a bunch of money in this instance.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 18:53:06 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
<frank...@example.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 20:07:38 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:
>
>> It's a pretty mediocre bead breaker - and even a good one often
>> needs to be applied to several points around the tire to knock it
>> down. The (cheap) breaker sometimes needs to be tied with a twisted
>> rope to keep them against the rim.. Helps to have it adjusted properly
>> too.
>
>I have to agree with you that it's a "mediocre" bead breaker because I bent
>the heck out of the breaker arm last night working on the one spare tire
>that I have (it's not my SUV - I'm helping a relative by doing her tires):
>http://i.cubeupload.com/LqS6N4.jpg
>
>I don't have welding equipment, but I should probably weld on stronger
>steel to make the arms more rigid:
>http://i.cubeupload.com/mdLDK0.jpg
>
>> You are really going to need to change a lot of tires to pay for the
>> equipment with the money saved by not having someone else do it, and
>> I'll bet you ruin a few tires in the process.
>
>I had calculated about $200 for the tools which, at about $20 per tire, is
>about 10 tires. That's about two years payback time, assuming tires changed
>on two cars every two years plus a flat fix once every two years per car
>(which is about my rate).
>
>So, pretty much, I'm going through 10 tires on two cars every two years so
>two years from now, it will have paid for itself.

Except for one thing. After spending $500 instead of the budgeted $200
you STILL won't be able to change your tires, and you will end up
tearing the beads and gouging the expensive wiener-wagon rims before
you figure that out

>
>> If you are doing it yourself because you don't trust tire shops, "rots
>> 'a ruck,"
>
>Tire shops suck.
>1. They don't remove BBS hubcaps with the tool (they just pry them off)
>2. They don't remove all the old weights (they just put on more)
>3. They don't line up the heavy (or high) spot (they just use more weight)
>4. They don't pressurize the tires correctly (everyone gets the same psi)
>5. They don't torque lug nuts/bolts correctly (ditto on egalitarianism)
>6. I've had bent BMW rims (I think they did it but I can't prove that)

Find a GOOD shop - they do exist.
My brother's old shop tire machine doesn't even need the centers
removed from your BBS wheels, and the mounting tools never touch the
rim.
Any hack that doesn't remove the weights BEFORE removing the tire
should be shot.
The "high spot" marks oftem make virtually no difference
If you just take in the rims to have tires mounted, what pressure are
they supposed to use? Or if you use a slightly different sized tire?
YOU are responsible for testing the pressure and setting to your
requirements.
Anyone who doesn't torque the bolts properly should be shot. They are
"hacks" not "technicians"
You likely bent the rims hitting a curb or pothole - which requires
more than just camber and toe to be checked on the alignment.

Your problem is you are going to a cheapeassed schlock tire shop
because you are too cheap to go to the dealership. (You call it the
stealership)

"If you want first quality oats you have to be willing to pay first
quality prices. If you are willing to settle for oats that have been
through the horse, they do come a little cheaper"

If you have to ask "how much" for ANYTHING you have no business
driving a Bimmer (or a Porsche, or an Audi or a Jag or a Range Rover
or a - you get the picture???

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Your problems are 2, and only 2. You are CHEAP, and you don't have a
clue how to use the tools.

A cheap tool in the hands of a master can be made to work reasonably
well. In the hands of an amateur, it will very seldom do the job the
first time - much-less stand up long term. Much better to find an OLD
manual tire changer made for professional use, and have the old codger
that owned it and used it for 50 years show you how to use it. Don't
second guess the guy because he did it for a living, and therefore,
being a mechanic or technician, cannot be trusted.
I can even see you going to a Hunter rep and buying a real tire
changer and then not listening to him explain what options to buy and
how to use it (if you weren't so cheap)

Sorry - but I just don't see this going anywhere.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 19:40:43 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
<frank...@example.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 19:04:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman advised:
>
>> Have you looked on YouTube? Ya know, the old thing about a
>> picture being worth one or ten thousand words?
>
>This video uses the same tool that I have:
>https://youtu.be/_J_2SD-snd0
>
>And he explained a bit about how the bead breaker shovel bends like mine
>did.
>

He's a bit of a hack too

>Unlike the other video, at least his beads popped off with a sound, so you
>know he was really breaking a bead.
>
>That guy also used a 3/8ths in bolt which was too long!
>He didn't use the washers that the previous guy did with the drop-in
>anchors.

Like I said

>
>So it looks like everyone has the same problem that you need 2-2/4 inch
>bolts and not a quarter inch either way but none of them bother to mention
>that (so you have to know to look for it which means you have to already
>know about it to know to look for it).
>
>But, overall, the tire he had was a low profile tire which is totally
>different from a SUV high profile tire, so, for bead breaking the video was
>useless.

The low profile tires are harder in my experience.
And like he said the tire changer will scratch your expensive rims
breaking the bead, fastening the rim to the changer, and removing and
replacing the tire because it's all cheap rough steel - no plastic
protectors, and no engineering behind it.

It's JUNK - and in the hands of an inexperienced user or a hack, it
can do a lot of damage to itself and the rims.

[Oren]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:12:12 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

>
>"If you want first quality oats you have to be willing to pay first
>quality prices. If you are willing to settle for oats that have been
>through the horse, they do come a little cheaper"

Justin Wilson told a joke on his Cajun cooking show. Kid asked the
cost of eggs. 25 cents a dozen, 15 cents if they are cracked. Kid
tells him to crack a dozen :-)

Sample of his humor:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK4umRMJlrs>

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

+ 1

. but - Clare - I need to know -
" expensive wiener-wagon rims "
Are you besmirching your ancestors ? ! :-)
Happy Christmas to all.
John T.

[Frank Baron]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:12:12 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> Find a GOOD shop - they do exist.
> My brother's old shop tire machine doesn't even need the centers
> removed from your BBS wheels, and the mounting tools never touch the
> rim.

How on earth are you going to get to the lug bolts *without* removing the
BBS hubcaps? It's impossible. I don't know what planet you live on, but the
math is strange on your planet.

> Any hack that doesn't remove the weights BEFORE removing the tire
> should be shot.

Well then, a *lot* of mechanics who use the dynamic balancing "spinners"
need to be shot then.

> The "high spot" marks oftem make virtually no difference

I agree with you on this.

Especially since it really only applies match mounting onto brand new
wheels at the factory.

> If you just take in the rims to have tires mounted, what pressure are
> they supposed to use?

When I have my four new tires mounted and balanced, I do what everyone else
does, which is *drive* the car to the shop who mounts and balances them.

They know it's a BMW. They know that the rears are different pressures from
the front. But they just put in whatever their compressor is set to for all
cars.

I don't blame them. They're lazy. It costs money to take time to look up
the pressure per axle and to adjust the pressure.

At easily $100 to $150 an hour, they don't bother with that.

> Or if you use a slightly different sized tire?

I don't use non-stock sizes but the fact remains that the tire shop puts
the same pressure into everything.

What part of that don't you understand?

> YOU are responsible for testing the pressure and setting to your
> requirements.

Yup. We agree. If you want the job done right, you have to do it yourself.

> Anyone who doesn't torque the bolts properly should be shot. They are
> "hacks" not "technicians"

They don't even *know* the torque for your car!
How are they gonna know it?
They have to flip through the Mitchells or the Internet, but they don't
bother.

That's my point.

It's not hard to figure out that it's 84 foot pounds per lug bolt; but it
takes time and they just torque everyone to 90 or 100 foot pounds.

> You likely bent the rims hitting a curb or pothole - which requires
> more than just camber and toe to be checked on the alignment.

That's a totally different story, but even then, with 5 very soft BBS stock
rims on the bimmer, I can put the *best* rims on the front and the worst
rim in the trunk, which takes time that the shops just aren't gonna do at
$100 to $150 an hour shop rate.

> Your problem is you are going to a cheapeassed schlock tire shop
> because you are too cheap to go to the dealership. (You call it the
> stealership)

The stealer is upwards of $200/hour and to get your tires mounted and
balanced at the stealer is just crazy for a 15 year old bimmer or a 20 year
old Toyota.

I go to the Tire Rack Recommended Installers, which you can google and find
yourself for your area. They're all about $18 to $40 per tire for a
mounting and balancing in my area. I just ran a survey and posted it.

> "If you want first quality oats you have to be willing to pay first
> quality prices. If you are willing to settle for oats that have been
> through the horse, they do come a little cheaper"

I don't understand how you can totally miss the point.
Your sermon is tired and old and just does not fit the facts.

What you say is a trite old wives tale which is meaningless except to old
wives.

You can do it yourself and get quality results (static only though).
Or, you can pay someone and get quality results.

How much you pay has absolutely no bearing on the quality.
For example, I just called the first five of the Tire Rack recommended
installers, and one charges $7 plus 70 cents tax for just *disposal* alone
for each tire.

None charged less than $3.50 plus 35 cents tax for disposal (not Pep Boys,
Autozone, or OReilly's either).

Yet, I called Costco, and they're $1 plus ten cents tax.

Do I get a better quality disposal for my seven dollars and seventy cents?
No.

Quality and price have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Period.

People only use price as an indicator of quality because they're too stupid
to use a more realistic measure (like, um, the quality of the work for
example).

> If you have to ask "how much" for ANYTHING you have no business
> driving a Bimmer (or a Porsche, or an Audi or a Jag or a Range Rover
> or a - you get the picture???

You have so many old wive's tales muddling your thought process that you
probably never once thought about what you're saying, to see if it actually
makes any sense (using math that works on this planet).

You're just saying stupid clich?s which mean absolutely nothing and really
are no help to anyone at all. If you want to believe in stupid clich?s,
that's fine, but let's not waste everyone's time discussing stupid clich?s
that are worthless and meaningless to everyone but you.

I appreciate the advice and help. I really do.
But clich?s are not advice nor help.
They're just wastes of our time.

And those stupid clich?s that you spout are never true anyway.

They're only true for idiots who don't know how to do math or who don't
know what quality is (because that's too complicated for them than a stupid
clich?, which is easy for them to understand).

[Frank Baron]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 20:25:01 +0000, Stormin' Norman advised:

>>Which bead breaker do you use?
>>
>>Is it this one?
>>http://i.cubeupload.com/ics54M.jpg
>
> Yes, except the base is painted orange, I assume it is the older
> version.

Thanks for that information.

Why does your experience totally clash with that of Cl...@snyder.on.ca
though?

I suspect Clare has never actually changed a tire using these tools where
you have?

[Frank Baron]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 15:56:13 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> By the time you are done you will have spent as much as having all
> your tires professionally changed for the rest of your life (unless
> you are a teenager with a heavy foot) and you STILL won't be able to
> change yourtires ----

What math do you use on your planet?

1. Pop your zip code into the Tire Rack Recommended Installer engine:
http://www.tirerack.com/installer/Installer.jsp?affiliate=HJ7
2. Call up the first five in the list
3. Tell us what you averaged

I just priced out getting tires mounted and balanced and it's never less
than $18 per tire where I live and as much as $38.50 at the first five of
the tire rack recommended installers for my zip code.]

At $20 per tire (which is a reasonable estimate and which was my initial
assessment) it would take two years to get my money back on $200 worth of
tools.

That's assuming a new set of tires every two years for two cars, and one
flat each for each car (which is pretty much what I average).

My math is pretty simple, and it checks out, so, what math are you using
that says the payback on $200 worth of tools is the rest of my life?

Am I only going to live two more years?

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 19:40:44 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
<frank...@example.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 20:07:38 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:
>
>> If you want instructions, look at
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7yz9twasEU
>> or
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUas5LIY_ok
>
>Thanks for those links.
>
>Watching this video first, it's actually hilarious in one way:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUas5LIY_ok
>
>He's using an entirely different model tool from HF (it has a completely
>different geometry than the one I have) and he's doing a brand new 14-inch
>passenger-car tire which even he said in the video is super easy.

It's the same piece of scrap you have but he modified it. It has the
exact same bead breaker you have. Listen to what the man has to say -
HE KNOWS HOW TO USE THE PIECE OF JUNK. He also told you and showed you
exactly what he welded.

>
>In addition, he welded stuff onto his tire changer (he didn't say exactly
>what he welded though) and his tire changer is totally different than mine
>in that he doesn't have those two weak arms that bent on mine.

It is the EXACT machine you have and he showed exactly what he did.
All you can do is find fault with what he was showing you instead of
listening and learning.

>http://i.cubeupload.com/LqS6N4.jpg
>
>His has a steel tube (which will certainly be stronger).

He does NOT have a steel tube - it is EXACTLY what you have.

>
>But the non-realistic part of his video was that he used a brand new tire!
>
>So all he did was press down like he was pressing his finger into butter,
>and the bead broke (in fact, the bead was already broken because there was
>absolutely no popping sound). He even stepped on the rest of the tire to
>get the rest of the bead, which means that he was just going through the
>motions.

If he had your tire it would have done almost exactly the same. I've
chanked hundreds - likely thousands of tires - and what he showed was
VERY representative of what you would find - particularly on alloy
rims (his was steel)

>
>It's fine that he was just going through the motions, but I already knew
>all the motions.

As long as you are convinced you already know it all, you will NEVER
learn.

>
>But he also bolted his HF tool to concrete (his bolt hole dimensions are
>wrong though since nothing larger than 3/8ths will fit in the pre-drilled
>holes of the tool legs).

So he's smarter than the average jackass and drilled the holes out to
take a bigger bolt, and also welded the otherwise flimsy arms to the
base of the changer pedestal, He's smarter than you - get used to it.

>He used the same threaded anchors that I did, so that's nice to know.
>And, he didn't mention it, but you can see that he stacked a shitload of
>washers under the bolt head, which means he had the same problem that I
>have which is you need 2-3/4-inch long bolts, but you can only easily get
>2-1/2 or 3-inch bolts (he probably used the 3-inch bolts).
>
>So, it was a useful video, but not the same model tire changer as I have,
>and, his test case was so easy that it simply showed what we already know
>which is you press down on the bar with the bead shovel in the bead.
>
>He does another tire at time 937 but it's just as easy but at least we
>"hear" the pop of the bead, which means this bead was actually seated:
>https://youtu.be/bUas5LIY_ok?t=937
>
>The video is good for "instructions" for going through the motions, but
>it's not useful when there is a problem breaking the bead since the bead
>came off like it was buttered.
>
>The guy blows up a tire at time 1408, which is certainly not standard
>procedure!

What's not standard procedure about the way he blew up the tire at
14:08???
>https://youtu.be/bUas5LIY_ok?t=1408
The way he did it at the end is a bit of a "redneck" way.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 19:40:44 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
<frank...@example.com> wrote:

look at this one too --
He knows what he's doing and has addressed a few of the shortcomings.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

My "Cherman" ancestry is far enough back the square corners have
been knocked about as round as his bimmer rims will be after he
changes the tires - - -

[RonNNN]

In article <o2pr24$1mli$2...@gioia.aioe.org>, frank...@example.com says...

> If you want the job done right, you have to do it yourself.

From what I've read from you, you don't appear qualified to do *any* job
"right". JMHO

--
RonNNN

[Stormin' Norman]

Attempting to pit one persons experience against another's is a good
way to stir up trouble. I urge you to refrain from such questions.

I live in a warm environment which ensures the tire is more pliable
then when it is cold. When we dismount tires, we use soapy warm water
and a lot of patience, perspiration and military "surplus" tire spoons
after the bead is broken. We also drop the tire onto concrete from
several feet high and we bounce it several times after we have removed
the valve core.

We don't do it often enough to justify owning one of the larger,
pneumatic or hydraulic units. We also don't do this with car tires, I
much prefer Costco or Discount Tire for the road vehicles. No
scratching of wheels and they can dynamically balance the tires /
wheels.

[Frank Baron]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 22:41:50 +0000, Stormin' Norman advised:

> I live in a warm environment which ensures the tire is more pliable
> then when it is cold. When we dismount tires, we use soapy warm water
> and a lot of patience, perspiration and military "surplus" tire spoons
> after the bead is broken. We also drop the tire onto concrete from
> several feet high and we bounce it several times after we have removed
> the valve core.

Thanks for the advice to warm and bounce the tire.
Someone else mentioned warming, so, since I only have the one spare wheel
with me now (it's not my SUV) I have it inside the living room warming up.

I will bounce it and try again, but I wasn't able to buy the bead breaker
tool from HF today (I'll do it tomorrow). I am hoping to get the SUV to
work on tomorrow night if I can have it in my garage for an hour to change
the four other tires (I have to move the spare too so I'll be dismounting
and mounting a total of five tires even though she only bought four).

> We don't do it often enough to justify owning one of the larger,
> pneumatic or hydraulic units.

I agree with you.
An air-operated unit is overkill.
It's like having an alignment rack, which is overkill for home use.

> We also don't do this with car tires, I
> much prefer Costco or Discount Tire for the road vehicles.

Costco only sells something like two brands, and they take forever to do
the tires, but they do give you free stuff like nitrogen and rotations
although the free rotation is worthless because you can rotate at home in
far less time than it takes at Costco.

> No
> scratching of wheels and they can dynamically balance the tires /
> wheels.

Did you see the wheels I'm working on?
http://i.cubeupload.com/LqS6N4.jpg

Scratching isn't a problem.

[Stormin' Norman]

I have taken tires and rims to Costco and asked them to dismount and
mount other tires and they were happy to do it without me having
purchased the tires from them.

One time I gave the guy at the counter a case of St. Pauli Girl beer
and they did it all for free......

[Vic Smith]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 23:38:36 +0000, Stormin' Norman
<nor...@schwarzkopf.invalid> wrote:

>
>One time I gave the guy at the counter a case of St. Pauli Girl beer
>and they did it all for free......

Funny you should mention that. I just got back from Fannie Mae
Candies, where I purchased 8 half pound boxes of Chocolate Citrus
Peel. Gifts for a wedding anniversary and Christmas.
I mentioned to the young guy packing my candies that my wife would
kill me if she knew I took the '93 Grand Am out of the garage in 11F
weather. She just doesn't trust that car.
That got him going on his all time favorite car, his '03 Grand Am.
It took him about 15 minutes to pack 6 boxes (they had 2 ready to go),
as we chatted about Grand Ams - and his current Chevy Cruze.
Bottom line is he only charged me for 6 boxes, a full 25% discount.
Nice guy, but I can't say I agree with his choice of cars.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 22:00:36 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
<frank...@example.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:12:12 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:
>
>> Find a GOOD shop - they do exist.
>> My brother's old shop tire machine doesn't even need the centers
>> removed from your BBS wheels, and the mounting tools never touch the
>> rim.
>
>How on earth are you going to get to the lug bolts *without* removing the
>BBS hubcaps? It's impossible. I don't know what planet you live on, but the
>math is strange on your planet.

Not ALL BBS wheels have the full caps . I was thinking the center
caps used on many BBS wheels that have their nuts exposed

>
>> Any hack that doesn't remove the weights BEFORE removing the tire
>> should be shot.
>
>Well then, a *lot* of mechanics who use the dynamic balancing "spinners"
>need to be shot then.

Every mechanic that ever worked for me removed all the weights before
removing tires, and ballanced from scratch. We ballanced to 1/4 ounce

>> The "high spot" marks oftem make virtually no difference
>I agree with you on this.
>
>Especially since it really only applies match mounting onto brand new
>wheels at the factory.
>
>> If you just take in the rims to have tires mounted, what pressure are
>> they supposed to use?
>
>When I have my four new tires mounted and balanced, I do what everyone else
>does, which is *drive* the car to the shop who mounts and balances them.

By far not everyone does that. A LOT of people have summer and winter
rims, and when one set gets worn to the point they need replacement,
they drop those rims off at the shop to have new tires installed when
they are removed to install the other seasonals.

>
>They know it's a BMW. They know that the rears are different pressures from
>the front. But they just put in whatever their compressor is set to for all
>cars.

So they inflate them to 100-140PSI, do they???? That's what their
compressor puts out.

>
>I don't blame them. They're lazy. It costs money to take time to look up
>the pressure per axle and to adjust the pressure.

Like I said, if that's the service you are getting that's the service
you are paying for. Go to a better level of shop.

>
>At easily $100 to $150 an hour, they don't bother with that.
>

The mechanics make a hell of a lot less than that, and if you are
paying that much and not getting proper service, raise hell and vote
with your feet.

>> Or if you use a slightly different sized tire?
>
>I don't use non-stock sizes but the fact remains that the tire shop puts
>the same pressure into everything.
>
>What part of that don't you understand?

I don't understand where you are getting your work done and why you
don't set them straight. You know how to bitch, so do it where it has
a chance of doing some good.

>
>> YOU are responsible for testing the pressure and setting to your
>> requirements.
>
>Yup. We agree. If you want the job done right, you have to do it yourself.
>
>> Anyone who doesn't torque the bolts properly should be shot. They are
>> "hacks" not "technicians"
>
>They don't even *know* the torque for your car!
>How are they gonna know it?

BULLSHIT. They have a chart with the torque specs.
Basically all steel rims with a given stud size use the same torque,
and all alloys of that size another torque - and the torque goes up
with the stud size.

>They have to flip through the Mitchells or the Internet, but they don't
>bother.
>
>That's my point.

Then bitch at them and vote with your feet - but I'm almost 100%
positive you will screw up more than they do.

>
>It's not hard to figure out that it's 84 foot pounds per lug bolt; but it
>takes time and they just torque everyone to 90 or 100 foot pounds.

Bullshit

>
>> You likely bent the rims hitting a curb or pothole - which requires
>> more than just camber and toe to be checked on the alignment.
>
>That's a totally different story, but even then, with 5 very soft BBS stock
>rims on the bimmer, I can put the *best* rims on the front and the worst
>rim in the trunk, which takes time that the shops just aren't gonna do at
>$100 to $150 an hour shop rate.

Again, bullshit. You say $100 to $150 an hour - if they are on the
clock, they get paid, so why not take the time???
If it's flat rate, it's a different story - but they are not charing
by the "hour" but by the "labour unit" - which may or may not relate
closely to an hour.

>> Your problem is you are going to a cheapeassed schlock tire shop
>> because you are too cheap to go to the dealership. (You call it the
>> stealership)
>
>The stealer is upwards of $200/hour and to get your tires mounted and
>balanced at the stealer is just crazy for a 15 year old bimmer or a 20 year
>old Toyota.

Then find a good independent GARAGE to do your work, not a tire
"stealership" Find a garage to do the required repairs on your
vehicle that you can trust - then trust them to do the job. That
doesn't mean don't check up on them - it just means trust them to do
the job, and let them know you are happy with them when they do, and
that you are not when they don't

>
>I go to the Tire Rack Recommended Installers, which you can google and find
>yourself for your area. They're all about $18 to $40 per tire for a
>mounting and balancing in my area. I just ran a survey and posted it.

And you are getting shitty work for that price.

>
>> "If you want first quality oats you have to be willing to pay first
>> quality prices. If you are willing to settle for oats that have been
>> through the horse, they do come a little cheaper"
>
>I don't understand how you can totally miss the point.
>Your sermon is tired and old and just does not fit the facts.
>
>What you say is a trite old wives tale which is meaningless except to old
>wives.
>
>You can do it yourself and get quality results (static only though).
>Or, you can pay someone and get quality results.
>
>How much you pay has absolutely no bearing on the quality.
>For example, I just called the first five of the Tire Rack recommended
>installers, and one charges $7 plus 70 cents tax for just *disposal* alone
>for each tire.
>

I didn't say how much you pay necessarily has a bearing on the
quality - only that if you just shop by price, don't be surprized if
the oats have already been therough the horse.\

And it's NOT "old wive's tales" -
I was a service manager at a dealership for 10 years - my retention
rate was never under 90%, and exceded 100% for over 5 years. Loosely,
that means if the dealership sold 300 cars over the last 3 years, more
than 300 customers brought their cars to me for service at least twice
a year. It's a bit more complex than that - but it's based on how many
vehicles were still coming back for service 3 years after they were
sold - and that was back when the warranty was only one year.

That also means customers who didn't like the service they were
getting at another dealer voted with their feet and came to me
instead.
And that was just our toyota customers. We also serviced a fair
number of non-toyotas because we had an excellent reputation for
service.
There has got to be another dealership (or garage) who can provide
that kind of service.

I also had lots of customers like you. Bitch, Bitch Bitch BITCH.
Didn't matter what you did for them, they were never satisfied - and I
could see right away when they came in what kind of trouble they were
going to be in most cases. They came in counting on being screwed -
they expected it, and no matter what you did, they considered
themselves to have been screwed.
I had to tell a few of them if they didn't trust me to look after
their vehicles, they were not only welcome, but encouraged, to take
their bitchiung somewhere else.

[Vic Smith]

Nothing wrong with doing you own tires if you want to.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Ha Ha Ha. I've changed tires with nothing but tire irons. I've used
the cheap manual changers. I've used "professional" manual changers
made in the fifties, and I've used several different high tech power
changers. I've changed tires from 4" to 50+ inch tires - car tires
from 10 inch Mini tires to 20 inchers - including clinchers, as well
as split rim and split ring truck tires, and tractor and industrial
equipment tires on 2 continents, and on vehicles from 1928 vintage to
the 2000's. I haven't done it for a living for the last 26 years or
so, but I've still done a fair number of them.
Would I waste my money on one of those tire changers to do my own?
Not as long as I lived within 10 miles of a real tire machine.
I've balanced tires with bubble ballancers, high speed on-car
ballancers, high speed and low speed off-car balancers
I've aligned cars with clip-on bubble level aligners, visualiners,
acculiners, and computerized alignment machines, Would I use a bubble
balancer to balance the wheels on my own vehicles today? Not on your
life.
When I change my own steering parts I line the front up to
"reasonably close" and then drive it over to a local shop and pay them
to do an accurate alignment. - and i KNOW how to do it.
One place I worked we had a "slip guage" that told us when we drove a
car into the shop if the alignment was apppreciably out - and that
test was done free of charge to every vehicle that came in the door.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

I buy my tires from a reputable local dealer who gets to make the
markup on the tires, and charges me $15 canadian to install and
balance them.
I'm not a cheap-ass who believes he can always get a better deal
on-line. I give my business to local businesses - owned by my
neighbours, who employ my neighbours and pay local taxes in my
community.. That goes for tires, appliances, and just about everything
else I buy. If it is available locally, I buy locally. I'm not a rich
man - but I make my living here, and I believe my nieghbours should be
able to make their living here too. That means sometimes I pay a few
dollars more than buying from out of the area - but on the whole I
believe I'm getting as good value for my money locally as I would getr
anywhere.

As far as getting your money back, I truly don't believe you will
ever make your money back on your DIY tire changing and alignment
schemes - because you WILL screw up more than you save. Virtually
guaranteed. You have proven you don't understand what is involved.

[Oren]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 22:00:38 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
<frank...@example.com> wrote:

>Why does your experience totally clash with that of Cl...@snyder.on.ca
>though?
>
>I suspect Clare has never actually changed a tire using these tools where
>you have?

Feeble attempt at a troll. Keep digging. You will post 500 threads
before you understand. I guess you think those clowns at HF have
better advice for you, Go for it.

[Frank Baron]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 23:45:12 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron advised:

> I have a question about mounting and balancing tires at home that didn't
> come up when I was researching this problem. If you have never mounted or
> balanced your own passenger-car tires, then you won't know the answers
> (most likely) but if you have, you'll know because you must have solved
> this problem.
>
> I have the Harbor Freight Pittsburgh Manual Tire Changer HF item #62317
> which is mounted in concrete so that it is stable.
>
> That tire changer comes with a "bead breaker" but the bead is just not
> breaking when I used it today!
> http://i.cubeupload.com/f8FCTC.jpg
>
> I also bought a couple of Harbor Freight item #61603 Pittsburgh 24 in.
> General Purpose Tire Irons.
> http://i.cubeupload.com/7q7Tq0.jpg
>
> The problem is that the harbor freight tire changer bead breaker just seems
> to slip off when following the instructions.
> http://i.cubeupload.com/7CdvVu.jpg
>
> I would be glad to use the the Harbor Freight item #67403 Tire Bead Breaker
> with Swan Neck:
> http://i.cubeupload.com/Qcg2YR.jpg
>
> But it doesn't come with instructions.
> Have you used these goose-neck bead breakers on passenger tires?
>
> Which way does the goose-neck go?
> a. It can't fit under the rim with the finger pointing up, and,
> b. It can't fit under the bead with the finger pointing down.
>
> So how did you use this bead breaker anyway?

The main problem is simply that I have a tough tire (a 108T, which is a
pretty thick SUV tire compared to much easier passenger car tires), and
that the harbor freight tire-changing tool requires modification to work on
such tough tires without bending.

I took my time to document what I learned so that the next person who uses
the same equipment can benefit from the 20/20 hindsight this tutorial
provides them for how to use the harbor freight tire changer to:
a. Break the lower bead of the old tire away from the wheel
b. Break the upper bead of the old tire away from the wheel
c. Remove the upper bead of the old tire from the wheel
d. Remove the lower bead of the old tire from the wheel
e. Remove the old Schrader valve and stem assembly
f. Insert the new Schrader valve and stem assembly
g. Place the lower bead of the new tire on the wheel
h. Place the upper bead of the new tire on the wheel
i. Align the red (or yellow) dot to the valve stem (or to the wheel
match-mounting mark)
j. Seat the beads by filling the tire with air
k. Check the valve stem clearance, match mounting marks, and adjust
pressure to normal psi

The goal is that they start knowing all the things that I just learned
today, which make the job far easier and which makes the tools work far
better.

The first thing I did was straighten out the bent bead-breaking wedge bars,
which was so easy to do one might conclude that they're actually made of
rubber.
http://i.cubeupload.com/JfWmot.jpg

What the bead breaker shovel needs, from the start, is a bit of support,
which is shown here (but after using it, I realized it needs to be about 2
inches from the top of the wedge to leave clearance for the rim of the
wheel when breaking beads).

Luckily this wedge simply moved out of the way because it was just press
fit in and wrapped with solid 120V copper wire. (Given more time, I would
not weaken the bars any further by drilling bolt holes - but - I would
strap in a rectangular block of wood instead of this fence post, which just
happened to be handy.)
http://i.cubeupload.com/hzdzpZ.jpg

I started on the inside bead, which I'm told, is the harder one to break.

By moving the Clovis pin to the outside adjustment hole (making the angle
about 90 degrees to the tire), and with this artificially strengthened
wedge, I was (finally) able to apply (far) more force on the 108T tire bead
without the wedge slipping off the bead itself.
http://i.cubeupload.com/VIu5nb.jpg

The fence post got in the way of the rim as shown in this photo, so, if you
permanently mount it, make sure it's shorter by about 2 or 3 inches than
the space allotted, and make sure it's mounted up high and not low where
mine is now.

Notice how the wooden block hits the rim?
You don't want that.

You want the block to stay higher up, away from the rim by a couple of
inches.
But, in this case, it didn't matter because the block moved when pressure
was placed on it.
http://i.cubeupload.com/kYwRJt.jpg

The stronger wedge plus the 90 degree angle from using the furthest-out of
the 3 adjustment pin holes allowed me to apply enough force to finally pop
the inside-rim bead of the admittedly strong 108T tire sidewall.
http://i.cubeupload.com/tMHBFS.jpg

Only after I popped the underside tire bead did I try to remove the lever
arm, where I found that it bent at about a 10 or 15 degree angle. It took
that much force, but you have to also realize that this harbor freight
metal is soft as rubber.
http://i.cubeupload.com/3q4ZU3.jpg

After straightening the bent tire iron as much as I could, and after moving
the clovis pin to the center hole to get more of an angle, and using a tire
iron to keep a depressed bead down, I easily popped the upper bead.
http://i.cubeupload.com/k527JN.jpg

Placing the tire iron flat step with the step side up, allowed me to start
spinning the top bead off the wheel rim without lubrication:
http://i.cubeupload.com/Zf44Tl.jpg

Adding dish detergent helped a lot to spin the top bead off, where I'd say
it's a requirement to have lubrication but everything gets slippery, even
the tools, so try to keep it off the tools.
http://i.cubeupload.com/hdveUJ.jpg

You repeat the process for the lower bead, with the tire iron again going
in step-side up as in the first bead (the same way as it did for the upper
bead).
http://i.cubeupload.com/5BIFb7.jpg

Once the tire was off the rim, I cut off the old 1-1/4 inch tire valve
from the underside with a utility knife, where the old valve was in
surprisingly good shape, so I might have kept it had I not wanted to test
out the 4-way valve-seating tool and the fit of the longer new 1-1/2 inch
long tire valves.
http://i.cubeupload.com/f5L099.jpg

After lubricating the new 1-1/2 inch valve with dish soap, I threaded on
the 4-way tool and pulled it through so easily that it was shockingly
simple.

Later you'll see I have a much better idea to replace that silly 4-way tool
that I already have in my compressor toolbox, so I never needed the silly
4-way tool in the first place, but I didn't realize that until later.
http://i.cubeupload.com/goBGRq.jpg

Only later, when I was filling the tire with air, did I realize that a
handy tool for pulling the valve would have been my compressor
football/soccer-ball needle-valve tool, with the needle valve removed,
which spins onto the valve threads with ease and which has a nice trigger
handle to grab onto so that the valve can be pulled into place.

But I didn't think of this at the time I was seating the first valve, so,
it's just a lesson learned for the future, and for someone else who happens
to read this for hints on how to do the job without that silly 4-way valve
seating tool (which is never needed).
http://i.cubeupload.com/Zr23tu.jpg

The bottom bead of the new tire went on 3/4 of the way by hand, and then
with a two-foot tire iron, the last quarter went on relatively easily.
http://i.cubeupload.com/mA6HJx.jpg

It's important to remember to flip the tool and set the hook side
appropriately because you're not going to seat the top bead unless you have
the tool oriented this way exactly. (Lord knows what the other tip is use
for.)
http://i.cubeupload.com/3xskBg.jpg

You'll want to ensure you seat the bead at the tire-valve first because
that last quarter gets dicey where you have to use the most strength in the
whole job, and where a slippery bar gets obnoxious.

I had to vise grip the end of the bar that I was holding because it kept
twisting off the bead but with vise grips, it was manageable.

At the very least, you'll want to use vise grips to hold the slippery upper
bead from slipping off as you try to force the last 1/4 of the upper bead
onto the rim.
http://i.cubeupload.com/r6g3JG.jpg

This is the point where you're extremely glad the tool is firmly bolted to
cement, as the force is as much as you can give it.

Even so, I found I had to ditch the slippery but huge red pry bar and
resort to two 24-inch tire irons to leverage the remaining upper bead over
onto the wheel rim.
http://i.cubeupload.com/czF7Qu.jpg

It's at this point, before you fill the tire with air, that you line up the
red dot to the match-mounting marks, or, the yellow dot to the valve stem
(if there is no red dot) or if there is a red dot but no match mounting
marks, then you line up the red dot to the valve stem.

After doing that, I first removed the inner valve stem of the Schrader
valve and tried to use my latching air chuck, but without the valve stem,
the darn chuck wouldn't pass any air (so I gave up on this method).
http://i.cubeupload.com/WJGeQr.jpg

It was dark and drizzly when I just decided to put the valve stem back in
and put the latching chuck back on (although later I found a neat trick
that I will try with the next tire).

It turns out that having the valve stem in or out really made no difference
whatsoever, it seems, with respect to getting the air inside and getting
the bead to seat.

The trick to seating the bead is really to have two hands free to hold the
tire edges and jiggle, wiggle, coerce, tug and jerk the tire as it's loose
when you're trying to get the bead to seat.

Once you get the tire in a certain position, you can just feel it starting
to blow up, where it seats and finally pops a few times as you work up the
pressure to 40, 50, and 60 psi.
http://i.cubeupload.com/5RH8RC.jpg

Further proof that the silly 4-way tool is worthless is the fact that it
doesn't have a pin for letting the air out of the valve to drop the
pressure down from 60 psi back to 40 where it belongs.

Rummaging around in my compressor kit, I found this needle-valve which is
normally used to inflate footballs and soccer balls, but which deflates the
tire without sharp points like those that are on the silly and useless
4-way tool.
http://i.cubeupload.com/aS0xdG.jpg

It was at this point that I realized that the football/soccerball inflator
handle can be used for the next tire to inflate the tire quickly without
the schrader valve being in place, so I will try it this way on the next
tire to see if it works.

(It may require a third hand to press the trigger, but I can probably wire
the trigger pressed because both hands will be needed to coerce the tire
into momentarily seating while the air is filling it up.)
http://i.cubeupload.com/DZJO2y.jpg

At this point it's time to make two checks of the valve stem.

Ensure the red (radial runout) dot is at the valve stem
Ensure with a straight edge that the valve doesn't stick out past the rim


Since it was dark, I didn't bother looking for match mounting marks on the
old rim, so, I simply lined up the red dot with the tire valve since the
red dot indicates the tire's high point for radial runout and radial force
variation, which takes precedence over the yellow dot which indicates the
tire's light spot which would have been paired with the valve stem on the
wheel which is the wheel's heavy spot had the red dot not existed.
http://i.cubeupload.com/1dxFGN.jpg

[Frank Baron]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 14:06:51 -0600, dpb advised:

> at $60+/- at the moment...keep watching/looking and can eventually find
> a usable changer that will actually work.

I found a way to shore up the harbor freight tire changer so that it works
on the tougher 75-series 108T SUV tires (60 series passenger tires would be
far easier) and posted that as a response to the original post.

One question though, is what tool do you guys recommend for removing the
old crimp on wheel weights?

http://i.cubeupload.com/0D6Lnt.jpg

[Frank Baron]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:36:56 -0600, RonNNN advised:

> From what I've read from you, you don't appear qualified to do *any* job
> "right". JMHO

How did I do here?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/alt.home.repair/k2RT8uicrQo/Xn6hZL2-CAAJ

[Frank Baron]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:16:44 -0800, Oren advised:

> Feeble attempt at a troll. Keep digging. You will post 500 threads
> before you understand. I guess you think those clowns at HF have
> better advice for you, Go for it.

Oren.
You are dead wrong.

But, let me prove it.
Do you see this post as a troll?
Why or why not?

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/alt.home.repair/k2RT8uicrQo/Xn6hZL2-CAAJ

[Frank Baron]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 19:46:10 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> Not ALL BBS wheels have the full caps . I was thinking the center
> caps used on many BBS wheels that have their nuts exposed

Fair enough. But anyway, the tire shops I've been to don't even carry the
five-dollar BBS plastic hubcap wrench. You know what they do instead of
twisting off the plastic hubcaps?

They tear them off with a screwdriver.
Ask me how I know.

> Every mechanic that ever worked for me removed all the weights before
> removing tires, and ballanced from scratch. We ballanced to 1/4 ounce

Fair enough. That's how it's *supposed* to be done.
But it isn't always done that way (ask me how I know).

> By far not everyone does that. A LOT of people have summer and winter
> rims, and when one set gets worn to the point they need replacement,
> they drop those rims off at the shop to have new tires installed when
> they are removed to install the other seasonals.

I know that. I used to live in cold country.
It makes sense to keep a set of rims around for that purpose.
It also might make sense to mount and balance your own tires for this
purpose, as it would vastly make the payback period sooner since you don't
have to spend money on four wheel rims (depends on the cost of the rims, of
course).

> So they inflate them to 100-140PSI, do they???? That's what their
> compressor puts out.

C'mon. Don't take me for a fool.
There are things called R-E-G-U-L-A-T-O-R-S on the compressor output.
Even you must be aware of that.

> Like I said, if that's the service you are getting that's the service
> you are paying for. Go to a better level of shop.

These are *all* either Costco, or Tire Rack Recommended Installers.
My theory is that they *know* how to change tires, but they also know that
almost nobody who comes to them knows how tires are supposed to be changed.

They skip steps to save time, where, for them, time is money.
It's that simple.

> The mechanics make a hell of a lot less than that, and if you are
> paying that much and not getting proper service, raise hell and vote
> with your feet.

I *am* voting with my feet.

1. The 460/A/A tires were bought for $68
2. We didn't pay any shipping fees
3. I changed the first tire today
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/alt.home.repair/k2RT8uicrQo/Xn6hZL2-CAAJ

What's next?
a. Change the other 4 tires (I have to move the spare off the rim)
b. Balance all five tires (including the spare)
c. Align the front camber, caster, and toe at home

> I don't understand where you are getting your work done and why you
> don't set them straight. You know how to bitch, so do it where it has
> a chance of doing some good.

Heh heh heh heh ... I have *bitched* as you suggested, and gotten my tires
mounted for free. I even was instrumental in getting a tire shop kicked out
of the Tire Rack Recommended Program because I documented their foibles.

But I'd rather not bitch. I'd rather just get the job done right, at home.

A. Mounting and repairing tires
B. Balancing tires
C. Alignment

Those three things, I feel, everyone should know how to do since they only
require basic capabilities and basic tools.

> BULLSHIT. They have a chart with the torque specs.

Actually, they don't.
Long story, I once had a car that was older aligned at Sears and they
didn't do anything. They charged me, but they didn't do anything.
When I complained, a day later (after checking the bolts because I had
painted them after contemplating doing the alignment myself after replacing
the tierod ends, pitman arm, and idler arm), they found the only thing
correct was the toein, which I had done myself.

When they questioned the tech, he said he didn't have charts for such an
old vehicle, so he just didn't do anything.

How many people have they cheated?
Thousands I'll bet.

How many people are they *still* cheating?
Thousands I bet.

Why?
Because they're too lazy to look things up.

> Basically all steel rims with a given stud size use the same torque,
> and all alloys of that size another torque - and the torque goes up
> with the stud size.

Dunno that. All I know is that my bimmer is 84 foot pounds for the lug
bolts.

> Then bitch at them and vote with your feet - but I'm almost 100%
> positive you will screw up more than they do.

It will be a steep learning curve, but I've already mounted my first tire
and I'm sure I'll just get exponentially better with the next four.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/alt.home.repair/k2RT8uicrQo/Xn6hZL2-CAAJ

Then I will balance them.
Then I will align the car.

Shouldn't be too hard, but as I said, there will be a steep learning curve.
I'm sure I'll have lots of questions when the time comes.

But right now, I'm giving back to the team, as all good Usenet posters
should. That is why I wrote this up:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/alt.home.repair/k2RT8uicrQo/Xn6hZL2-CAAJ

> Again, bullshit. You say $100 to $150 an hour - if they are on the
> clock, they get paid, so why not take the time???

You don't seem to have any clue that management won't let them spend an
hour or two per vehicle to change the tires.

> If it's flat rate, it's a different story - but they are not charing
> by the "hour" but by the "labour unit" - which may or may not relate
> closely to an hour.

What you seem to be completely ignorant of is the business model that the
management follows, which is that they need to get cars in and out of the
bays in order to charge for things done.

You amaze me sometimes.
Did you ever work in any company that charged for the job done?

> Then find a good independent GARAGE to do your work, not a tire
> "stealership" Find a garage to do the required repairs on your
> vehicle that you can trust - then trust them to do the job. That
> doesn't mean don't check up on them - it just means trust them to do
> the job, and let them know you are happy with them when they do, and
> that you are not when they don't

What you post is perfectly apropos for the ladies crocheting group, but
this is a home repair group, where people do their own stuff.

Nobody is telling you that YOU have to change your tires yourself, but it's
perfectly apropos to ask here.

Plus, I'm clearly doing the job since you can see the photos.
How many people are that good that they give back to Usenet with well
documented step by step photo filled how tos?

I'm one of the best.
I just haven't changed tires before.

Then I will balance them.
And then I will align the vehicle.

It's not rocket science but it does take a team, which is why I am here
asking those of you who have done it before for advice.

> And you are getting shitty work for that price.

Which is why I am doing it myself.

> I didn't say how much you pay necessarily has a bearing on the
> quality - only that if you just shop by price, don't be surprized if
> the oats have already been therough the horse.\

What's the difference between a Nexen NPriz AH5 sized P225/75R15 from Tire
Rack, SimpleTire, or (assuming Costco sells it), Costco?

Answer?
Price.

That's about it.
Especially if I am going to install them myself.

One price could be double the other.
The price has absolutely no bearing on quality.

Anyone who says it does, knows absolutely nothing.
They just use price because it's an easy number to compare things.

They simply assume that if TireRack sells the tire for $100 and Costco
sells it for $120, then Costco must have a better quality tire.

But it's the same tire no matter where you buy it.
The price has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality.

The quality has everything to do with quality.
It's really that simple.

[Frank Baron]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 20:02:13 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> Ha Ha Ha. I've changed tires with nothing but tire irons.

So have I, but they were motorcycle tires.

> Would I waste my money on one of those tire changers to do my own?
> Not as long as I lived within 10 miles of a real tire machine.

Look. I think you forget what newsgroup this is.
Look at the newsgroup.

Is this the ladies auxiliary club?

If all you're gonna do is spout that you have to get tires changed at a
professional shop, then maybe the ladies crocheting group is more apropos
for you?

> Would I use a bubble
> balancer to balance the wheels on my own vehicles today? Not on your
> life.

Let me ask you a fair and simple question, since we covered this topic
already so you know where I'm coming from.

What would you say if there is no vibration after a set of tires were
mounted?

Would you *still* spend the $80 bucks (minimum) to have the wheels
dynamically road-force balanced?

Why?

> When I change my own steering parts I line the front up to
> "reasonably close" and then drive it over to a local shop and pay them
> to do an accurate alignment. - and i KNOW how to do it.

I did my pitman arm, idler arm, and tie rod ends, and aligned the car
myself (long story with Sears charging for the alignment and never doing
it).

That was years ago, before I learned that almost all tire and alignment
shops are crooks.

Alignment is next on my list, by the way, but since I now have the
bead-braking and mounting part solved, I first am going to tackle the
balancing.

After balancing, I'll tackle alignment.

> One place I worked we had a "slip guage" that told us when we drove a
> car into the shop if the alignment was apppreciably out - and that
> test was done free of charge to every vehicle that came in the door.

My plan for alignment is as simple (and logical) as my plan for balancing.

I'm going to align the SUV myself (since all it takes is front caster,
camber, and toe). The rear is a solid axle and can't be adjusted.

Then I'm gonna find a shop that does free checks, and if my alignment is
correct, the check is free. If not, I pay for the alignment.

What do you see as a pitfall in my simple and logical plan?

[Frank Baron]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 23:38:36 +0000, Stormin' Norman advised:

> I have taken tires and rims to Costco and asked them to dismount and
> mount other tires and they were happy to do it without me having
> purchased the tires from them.
>
> One time I gave the guy at the counter a case of St. Pauli Girl beer
> and they did it all for free......

Don't get me wrong. I love Costco. In fact, I'm gonna take the old tires to
them for $1 plus ten cents tax where they will dispose of them for me.

If I took them to the local tire shop nearby me, it would cost $7 per tire
plus 70 cents tax (I hate that California taxes everything multiple times
where tires are taxed three times!)

Even if I took them to the local Pep Boys, it would still cost $3.50 plus
sales tax of about 35 cents.

Costco is the best for some things.
However, the one thing Costco sucks at is short lines & product selection.

I have gotten tires at Costco quite a few times, but I just gave up.
It takes far too long.
Never less than an hour wait, and often two or three hours (especially when
they run their annual tire sales).

Plus, Costco has a sucky selection of tires, and they won't mount any tires
you bring to them (I'm surprised your Costco did that because mine won't).

But they do give you free rotations and lovely green nitrogen air.
But overall, Costco isn't cost effective compared to what I can get online.

But I love Costco for other things (like diapers, similac, roasted chicken,
etc.).

[Frank Baron]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 20:11:45 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> I buy my tires from a reputable local dealer who gets to make the
> markup on the tires, and charges me $15 canadian to install and
> balance them.

I think we got a far better deal than you do, because we *thought* about
the problem set ahead of time, so as to maximize what our money buys.

For example, we chose the tires for their $68 price, and for their 460
traction, A treadwear, and A temperature ratings, based on the OEM specs
from Toyota of a 102S P225/75R15 tire for the OEM wheels.

Normally we use Tire Rack but https://simpletire.com/ gave them to us for
free shipping (which saved $16 per tire right off the bat). It did take
about 10 days (including the weekend) so that was one drawback, but in
general, a few days extra time isn't all that critical when deciding to
replace a set of tires.

So, the total cost for 4 460/A/A tires was, literally, $68 per tire.

> I'm not a cheap-ass who believes he can always get a better deal
> on-line. I give my business to local businesses - owned by my
> neighbours, who employ my neighbours and pay local taxes in my
> community..

Again, you are filled to the brim with cliches, but you're welcome to them.
This is a *technical* question, not a philosophical one.
You can wax philosophically on alt.philosophy or alt.economic.theory.

> That goes for tires, appliances, and just about everything
> else I buy. If it is available locally, I buy locally. I'm not a rich
> man - but I make my living here, and I believe my nieghbours should be
> able to make their living here too. That means sometimes I pay a few
> dollars more than buying from out of the area - but on the whole I
> believe I'm getting as good value for my money locally as I would getr
> anywhere.

You probably should be waxing on alt.philosophy for this post.

> As far as getting your money back, I truly don't believe you will
> ever make your money back on your DIY tire changing and alignment
> schemes - because you WILL screw up more than you save. Virtually
> guaranteed. You have proven you don't understand what is involved.

Heh heh heh heh ... you make me laugh.

You're actually *scared* of people like me.
Because I can do things that you wouldn't dare do yourself.

I may start out ignorant, but I end up knowing far more than you ever will.
That's not because I'm smarter than you are; I'm just far more willing to
learn than you are.

And, I'm certainly far more willing to give back since I know that the
power of Usenet is not only being able to ask experts questions, but to
also give back so that the next person stands on our shoulders.

Here's an example of classic Usenet giving back to the team:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/alt.home.repair/k2RT8uicrQo/Xn6hZL2-CAAJ

[Frank Baron]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 19:01:48 -0600, Vic Smith advised:

> Nothing wrong with doing you own tires if you want to.

Thanks for the encouragement.

This is alt.home.repair so it's not alt.ladies.cardgames.

I presume you guys do things.

Changing a tire can't be difficult for most of you guys.

Anyway, with all your great advice, I was able to redesign the
tire-changing machine and get the job done.

I wrote up the steps I used over here so that others can start where I left
off (20/20 hindsight being what it is, I would have done things differently
so I want others to benefit from my experience):
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/alt.home.repair/k2RT8uicrQo/Xn6hZL2-CAAJ

One minor remaining question is what tool do you guys use to remove and
replace the crimp-on weights?
http://i.cubeupload.com/0D6Lnt.jpg

[Stormin' Norman]

Frank, I am not trying to sell you on Costco. I simply related my
personal experience. I also have excellent luck with Discount Tire,
in this part of the country they are a giant in the tire retailing
business and will beat any price you bring them, even the online
sellers.

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 13:24:39 +0000, Stormin' Norman advised:

> Frank, I am not trying to sell you on Costco. I simply related my
> personal experience. I also have excellent luck with Discount Tire,
> in this part of the country they are a giant in the tire retailing
> business and will beat any price you bring them, even the online
> sellers.

I understand, and appreciate your recommendation.
I used to do all the things everyone else does, so I'm familiar with every
way to buy tires (if I skipped a method, let me know).

1. When I was a kid in college, I bought tires at junk yards right off of
junked cars, but I stopped doing that when my five-dollar tires wobbled
while driving. For the life of me, I couldn't figure out what the vibration
was, because the tires looked fine. People would point to my tires as they
drove by, when one day, a guy followed me off the highway and told me my
tires were flexing like a balloon. Replacing those junk-yard tires solved
my vibration problem; but it could have been (much) worse.

2. Swearing off junk-yard tires, I would then buy tires on sale at Sears.
They sold them mostly by warranty (of all things). So I would buy the tires
based on warranty as I recall (although this was in the day of bias ply so
I don't remember all the details). I do remember looking at a wall of
mounted tires at sears and trying to figure out what was the best tire
(which was basically impossible to do that way - but I didn't realize it at
the time).

3. Over the years, I learned about TireRack from the Motor Trend and Car
and Driver car magazine advertisements (there were two main companies that
always advertised with a full page of teeny tiny print that I could
actually read without glasses in those days before the Internet). It was
still impossible to select among tires, but at least the price was a *lot*
lower than it was at Sears. Tire Rack would ship to the recommended
installer and the installer would give me the Tire Rack price.

4. At some point, radial tires showed up (which lasted longer than the 25K
miles that bias ply lasted) and UTQG appeared as did Price Club (now
Costco), so at least I could now select tires from the floor-to-ceiling
piles at Costco by the UTQG numbers (and not by a silly warranty figure).

5. Finally, I got used to buying stuff on the Internet, and that was it for
buying anything locally, simply because of the stupendously huge price
difference. Sure, almost everyone will *match* almost everyone else, but
what good is *matching*?

I never understood price matching.
What's the appeal?

Under most circumstances, they match the same price you can get elsewhere.
Um. So what? That's not any better. And, often it's worse (because of sales
tax and selection considerations.)

The *only* reason, IMHO, to price match, is if there is *something* you get
for free out of the price match. But if all you get is the same tire at the
same price that you would have gotten anyway - what's the benefit of price
matching?

I'd rather give my business to the guy who advertises and sells at the
lowest price than to the guy who advertises and sells at a higher price who
only drops his price when you put a gun to his head.

Of course, if you get *something* for free from price matching, then it
makes total sense. Many examples can occur, but I'll just flesh out a
typical one which is that, say, you can get tires in 10 days from company X
online, where the total cost (let's say) is $400 for 4 tires, shipped,
taxed, and installed.

If you walk up to a tire shop, and say "will you match this price" and if
they match the *price*, then you're getting something for free because you
don't have to wait the 10 days for shipping.

So, to me, price matching is utterly useless unless you get something for
free out of the deal, other than price.

To me, *price beating* is what I like!
If someone says they will *beat* the Internet price by, say, 10 percent,
that's worth switching.

But just price matching?

Naaah. That's like replacing your favorite toolbox hammer with another
exactly similar hammer. There's no benefit whatsoever to the swap, and the
original hammer deserves a bit more respect.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 05:34:15 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
<frank...@example.com> wrote:


By George - when he stops to think he actually CAN figure things
out!!!!!! From the questions origionally asked it appeared he could
not find his ass with both hands - He has surprised me. My appologies
- seriously.
but I'd still be wary of using THAT tire changer on the expensive
alloy rims without some more "modifications"
You really surprised me Frank -- Kudos.
I'm man enought o admit when I've been wrong.....

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Oh no - after what I just said, here we go again!!!!
A damned wheel weight pliers, of coarse!!!
Google "wheel weight pliers"

[Idlehands]

On 2016-12-13 11:35 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 19:01:48 -0600, Vic Smith advised:

<CHOP>

A better question is why does Danny keep changing names?

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

"even" I must be aware of that? You take me for a fool?

I took you for one too, with some pretty good evidence, until you
finally proved you COULD figure things out if provoked enough!!! Yes,
I know about regulators - but in 50 years experience I've NEVER seen
anybody use one to inflate a tire. That takes lazy and stupid to a
totally higher level than I've seen - must be a southern thing???

>
>> Like I said, if that's the service you are getting that's the service
>> you are paying for. Go to a better level of shop.
>
>These are *all* either Costco, or Tire Rack Recommended Installers.

Which is somehow supposed to be some kind of a quality recomendation??

That's what you get at "big box" and "chain" shops - not what you get
at a good independent shop or a dealership. Today all of the specs are
available to anyone with a smart phone if they don't have the data on
the machine. No excuse..
And we were NOT talking alignment - we were talking wheel torque.
Put that brain of yours to work - you proved ONCE that you have the
brains to figure things out. Use them...

>Thousands I'll bet.
>
>How many people are they *still* cheating?
>Thousands I bet.
>
>Why?
>Because they're too lazy to look things up.
>
>> Basically all steel rims with a given stud size use the same torque,
>> and all alloys of that size another torque - and the torque goes up
>> with the stud size.
>
>Dunno that. All I know is that my bimmer is 84 foot pounds for the lug
>bolts.

About right for an M12 stud or bolt on an alloy rim. - tire direct's
chart says 90 ft lbs except for 2002 to 2008 600 and 700 series and M5
and M6 which are 105 ft lbs (they use 14mm studs/bolts)
I imagine that spec is for steel wheels - alloys are generally about 5
ft lb less.

>
>> Then bitch at them and vote with your feet - but I'm almost 100%
>> positive you will screw up more than they do.
>
>It will be a steep learning curve, but I've already mounted my first tire
>and I'm sure I'll just get exponentially better with the next four.
>https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/alt.home.repair/k2RT8uicrQo/Xn6hZL2-CAAJ
>
>Then I will balance them.
>Then I will align the car.
>
>Shouldn't be too hard, but as I said, there will be a steep learning curve.
>I'm sure I'll have lots of questions when the time comes.

Before you start asking too many questions, stop and think it out
like you finally did with your tire changing. When you check your
alignment - if what you can check is OK, good. But if what you can
check is NOT OK, I would still STRONGLY recommend you take it to a
GOOD front end shop, or the dealer, to have it checked to be sure
nothing is bent and the caster isn't off.
There is really NOTHING on that car that can change the alignment
without bending something, wearing something, or breaking something.

Do your homework on the toe conversion issue. Like I said - project
your displaced car centerline about 5 feet minimum ahead of the wheel
centerline. then project the wheel angle out to intersect the
displaced centerline and make your measurements there. Construct a
right angle triangle, as large as possible from the projected lines,
and solve the triangle for the hypoteneuse angle.
You need to displace the centerline or the triangle will be a block
long - - -
Again - stop and look at and read and understand the information
that has been given to you. Then think about it and you will be able
to figure out what you are doing and why.

That's what I always told my students.
Don't just ASS U ME the guys giving you advice don't have a clue. I
did this for YEARS - and I taught both high school and trade level
Auto Mechanics in a "former life".
I know how to do it. I've done it. And I've taught many others how to
do it.

I've done it in Canada, and I've done it in the bush of Zambia and
Burkina Faso - So I've done it with the most advanced and the most
basic tools, and I've done it on everything from as basic as a 1928
Chev to Mecedes and Rolls Royce, with just about any level in between
you can imagine, as well as industrial and agricultural equipment.

The toe in is the EASY one. because you CAN "amplify" the measurement
to increase accuracy. The Camber you can tell if it is appreciably out
- but you cannot be accurate enough to say it's out 1/2 a degree -
and adjust it accurately. You could be 1/2 a degree out in your
initial measurement and end up making irt worse.

As for balancing? You can make it "close" with a bubble balancer, but
you will NOT be able to correct a "dynamic balance" problem. Google it
and understand it - if you stop to put that brain of yours to work you
CAN figure it out and understand why it is impossible to fix a dynamic
balance problem with a bubble balancer. Dynamic balance becomes
critical at speed - particularly on a car with a lightweight
responsive suspension. (which describes your little "wiener wagon" to
a tee). If you never drive over 55mph, or never drive on a good smooth
highway, and the dynamic balance is not off by more than half an ounce
or so (which you will never know) you may not notice any problem.
Driving at 65mph and up on a good smooth superhighway and the steering
wheel starts doing the tango from side to side? That is almost always
due to a dynamic ballance problem. It shimmies. Static balance
tramps.. So of course it's more critical on the front wheels of a rear
drive car than on a front drive, or on the rear wheels.
The "shimmy" even if it does not bother you, is causing wear in the
front suspension and steering linkage - so it IS important to have the
tires properly dynamic balanced.
Most modern tire balancers have 2 modes - standard and "precision".
Precision doubles the accuracy of the balancer - down to 1/4 ounce and
a degree or so of rotation from the 1/2 ounce accuracy of the
"standard" mode.
On my own vehicles I always do "precision" and recheck on "precision"
after installing the weights. to make sure it zeros. Same thing I did
on all luxury or performane vehicles for customers. (and most others
as well - it only takes about 15 seconds longer per cycle to run the
precision balance - and then I KNOW the customer won't come back)

I had a customer with an earlt Supra come in with a "high speed
shimmy" I test drove the car and asked him when I came back from a
perfectly smooth 95mph run "how high is high speed". He said he didn't
have a clue. the speedo didn't go that high. I precision ballanced the
wheels and his roughly 160MPH shimmy dissapeared (the speedo was
150mph, and he pinned it) The problem was about 1/4 ounce of dynamic
inbalance on one front tire - - -

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 23:19:45 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> Before you start asking too many questions, stop and think it out
> like you finally did with your tire changing.

The tire changing is now very easy.

I did a 60-series passenger-car tire today for a friend who had a flat and
it was so easy I looked like I knew what I was doing. The difference is
that a normal 60 series passenger tire is a piece of cake compared to these
75-series 108T sidewalls on the SUV.

Nonetheless, I have the 75-series SUV tires all figured out now for how to
break the beak so we're pretty much done with this thread for breaking
beads.

Next is figuring out the wheel weights to use (I think I am supposed to use
PZ, PZU, PST, or PSTU styles but I'm double-checking that as I speak.

Alignment comes after that.
http://i.cubeupload.com/WyBNYm.jpg

> When you check your
> alignment - if what you can check is OK, good. But if what you can
> check is NOT OK, I would still STRONGLY recommend you take it to a
> GOOD front end shop, or the dealer, to have it checked to be sure
> nothing is bent and the caster isn't off.

The problem with the Internet is that everything has to be said, even the
stuff that everyone already knows. Especially when it comes to alignment,
when 99,999 out of 100,000 people are *scared* to do it themselves.

Even if they weren't scared, 95,000 out of 100,000 can't *think* that hard,
because angles and geometries are involved, where some measurements have to
be converted from, say, degrees to inches (or vice versa).

So what we end up in *any* alignment thread, is 95% of the people spouting
utterly useless warnings that everyone already knows and only 5% of the
people helping out on the questions.

You may be in that 5% but you don't need to tell me the stuff that everyone
knows. I only need to know *how* to do it.

For the Toyota, the only things that can be adjusted are front caster,
camber, and toe, where caster & camber are adjusted together and toe is
adjusted separately and last.

Nothing else is adjustable and there is absolutely no indication anywhere
that anything is out of alignment, so it's more of a doublecheck than
anything else.

Caster can be calculated from camber and camber can be measured directly,
as can toe, so, that's the very simple plan of attack.

The actual charts for Toyota SUVs are complex but I'm working on them.
http://i.cubeupload.com/WyBNYm.jpg

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

No - you finally put your brain in gear.
Keep it up.
But don't let your head get TOO big.

The machine as supplied is CRAP - but it doesn't take MUCH to make it
half-assed decent. Get a steel plate welden in place of the
fence-post.
Put proper bolts (a bit bigger because the fit is sloppy) into
properly re-drilled holes, and install washers where necessary to take
out the slop in the linkages.. Cut the big handle in half and drive in
a rod or sched 40 pipe , then weld the thing back together - now it's
strong enough to do the job without turning into a pretzel.

Then you'll find the next weak point (hint - the guy who welded the
base legs was onto something)
When you are done you'll have a useable tire machine that might last
you a while. - still not a GREAT machine - but better than what you
have.

There's a you-tube out there of a guy who made his own - the rubber
tired steel wheel replacing that awfull spider is a good mod - as is
the one I posted before of the guy using rubber tire sidewall
material. Look them up. Think about what the guys are doing and why
instead of just going off half cocked about how it doesn't tell you
anything.

You need to STOP and THINK. If it doesn't make sense. look again and
UNDERSTAND what they did and why. Sometimes the guys on you-tube ARE
wrong - but you won't know untill you look at what they did, how, and
why.

If you don't, your comebacks and (sometimes very) dumb questions make
you look liike an idiot.

If you are gainfully employed the time spent MIGHT be better spent
earning the money to pay someone else to do the job, if the price of
having it done properly by someone who does a good job is the issue.
If you are doing it more because you enjoy it and you really want to
learn how to do things right, and learn about how things REALLY work -
that's a differnt story - but then, take in all the information you
can from those of us who have been there , done that, and got the
tee-shirt greasy. Don't go out of your way to make enemies of the
guys who can help you understand what you don't know....

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 22:21:15 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> Oh no - after what I just said, here we go again!!!!
> A damned wheel weight pliers, of coarse!!!
> Google "wheel weight pliers"

Turns out, after some research and talking to the pros, there's really no
need for those wheel-weight pliers just as there is absolutely no need for
any special valve removal or insertion tools.

Still, some tools are just nice to have even if they're not necessary.

I already bought the valve-puller tool, for example, mainly because I
wanted to feel for myself how much easier it made an already easy task of
removing and inserting the valves.
http://i.cubeupload.com/BurSRM.jpg

I'll probably do the same experiment for the wheel weight puller tool:
http://i.cubeupload.com/pkMgfr.jpg

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 22:19:12 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> I'd still be wary of using THAT tire changer on the expensive
> alloy rims without some more "modifications"

I used the tire changer on 60-series 16-inch alloy wheels today because I
offered to fix a flat for a friend where I warned him it might be
difficult.

This passenger tire was so easy, it made me look like a professional.

So, I think it's just that my testcase of the 75-series 108T sidewall
Optimo tires is just a more difficult case (by far) than a normal passenger
tire.

We didn't balance that alloy wheel because we didn't change the tire and
when I put it on the static balancer, it was fine.

But I'm going to have to balance the five steel wheels of the Toyota.

Right now, I'm looking at what wheel weight style to buy, since it's a
Toyota steel rim.

It seems from this PDF that the right type is the "P" type (whether PZU,
PZ, PST, or PSTU doesn't really matter) but I'm double checking that
assumption as we speak.
http://www.perfectequipment.com/content/site/dateien/8625390811_pe_imagebroshure_sceen.pdf

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 06:35:11 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
<frank...@example.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 20:02:13 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:
>
>> Ha Ha Ha. I've changed tires with nothing but tire irons.
>
>So have I, but they were motorcycle tires.

And I've done it on tires that would flatten you if they dropped on
you, as well as standard sized automobile and light truck tires.

>
>> Would I waste my money on one of those tire changers to do my own?
>> Not as long as I lived within 10 miles of a real tire machine.
>
>Look. I think you forget what newsgroup this is.
>Look at the newsgroup.
>
>Is this the ladies auxiliary club?

No, actually it is alt HOME REPAIR

>
>If all you're gonna do is spout that you have to get tires changed at a
>professional shop, then maybe the ladies crocheting group is more apropos
>for you?

You are being a prick again.
Read the messages posted just before this one, and take to heart.

>
>> Would I use a bubble
>> balancer to balance the wheels on my own vehicles today? Not on your
>> life.
>
>Let me ask you a fair and simple question, since we covered this topic
>already so you know where I'm coming from.
>
>What would you say if there is no vibration after a set of tires were
>mounted?
>
>Would you *still* spend the $80 bucks (minimum) to have the wheels
>dynamically road-force balanced?

Dynamic yes, road force, no
Read my earlier reply tonight for the reason why.

>
>Why?
>
>> When I change my own steering parts I line the front up to
>> "reasonably close" and then drive it over to a local shop and pay them
>> to do an accurate alignment. - and i KNOW how to do it.
>
>I did my pitman arm, idler arm, and tie rod ends, and aligned the car
>myself (long story with Sears charging for the alignment and never doing
>it).

SEARS??? You gotta be JOKING. They have been outed for decades as
being one of the biggest rip-offs in the "automotive" business., and
their "alignment scams" are the most well publicised. Take your car to
AN ALIGNMENT SPECIALIST

>
>That was years ago, before I learned that almost all tire and alignment
>shops are crooks.

Not nearly all - but the "chain" shops most definitely. Find a local
independent shop with a good front end man. They are worth their
weight in gold.

>
>Alignment is next on my list, by the way, but since I now have the
>bead-braking and mounting part solved, I first am going to tackle the
>balancing.
>
>After balancing, I'll tackle alignment.
>
>> One place I worked we had a "slip guage" that told us when we drove a
>> car into the shop if the alignment was apppreciably out - and that
>> test was done free of charge to every vehicle that came in the door.
>
>My plan for alignment is as simple (and logical) as my plan for balancing.
>
>I'm going to align the SUV myself (since all it takes is front caster,
>camber, and toe). The rear is a solid axle and can't be adjusted.
>
>Then I'm gonna find a shop that does free checks, and if my alignment is
>correct, the check is free. If not, I pay for the alignment.
>
>What do you see as a pitfall in my simple and logical plan?

The only pitfall is most "free alignment checks" are worth exactly
what you pay for them - or less.

Replacing your own parts, as long as you are careful and thorough, is
not a bad way to save some money and have some "fun" at the same time.
Just make sure you torque everything properly and don't miss any
cotter pins etc - - - Doing a simple re-alignment of the toe is
pretty simple - at least to get it close enough you can safely drive
it to a good shop to have it verified.and corrected if possible.
Having the rear track checked is not a bad idea either - you don't say
what kind of "SUV" it is, but there have been many cases of the rear
axle being out of line, causing the vehicle to "dog-track" wearing
tires and affecting handling.. A GOOD shop can correct that. Lots of
"SUV"s with bent axle housings too, which can throw out the toe and or
camber - and also cause accelerated failure of the differential
bearings. Have it checked at least once - and again if it ever gets
ANY SERIOUS OFF-ROAD DRIVING.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 06:35:13 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
<frank...@example.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 23:38:36 +0000, Stormin' Norman advised:
>
>> I have taken tires and rims to Costco and asked them to dismount and
>> mount other tires and they were happy to do it without me having
>> purchased the tires from them.
>>
>> One time I gave the guy at the counter a case of St. Pauli Girl beer
>> and they did it all for free......
>
>Don't get me wrong. I love Costco. In fact, I'm gonna take the old tires to
>them for $1 plus ten cents tax where they will dispose of them for me.
>
>If I took them to the local tire shop nearby me, it would cost $7 per tire
>plus 70 cents tax (I hate that California taxes everything multiple times
>where tires are taxed three times!)
>
>Even if I took them to the local Pep Boys, it would still cost $3.50 plus
>sales tax of about 35 cents.
>
>Costco is the best for some things.
>However, the one thing Costco sucks at is short lines & product selection.
>
>I have gotten tires at Costco quite a few times, but I just gave up.
>It takes far too long.
>Never less than an hour wait, and often two or three hours (especially when
>they run their annual tire sales).
>
>Plus, Costco has a sucky selection of tires, and they won't mount any tires
>you bring to them (I'm surprised your Costco did that because mine won't).

If they are busy- rushed off their feet mounting their customers'
tires - purchased from them - why would they install tires you got
somewhere else, making the wait for their customers even longer?
Stop. Think. Understand. It's BUSINESS.

>
>But they do give you free rotations and lovely green nitrogen air.
>But overall, Costco isn't cost effective compared to what I can get online.

Depends on your tolerance - and the hassle you have to go through
when you have problems with your on-line-ordered stuff (and it is
WHEN, not IF - it WILL happen!!!)

>
>But I love Costco for other things (like diapers, similac, roasted chicken,
>etc.).

They are great for anything you use a lot of and therfore buy in
quantity.
Did you see they are opening some new locations that go "back to
basics" - back to where they started - as a wholesale supplier for
small businesses???
That's what they were when I first dealt with them. They will have no
custom meat cutting, no tire and auto center, no eye-glasses or
hearing aids or jewelry a,d a whole lot less apparel - but more range
in office equipment and supplies, tools, etc that small businesses
will need - and cater more to the "mom-and-pop" stores and eateries
with their foodstuffs etc..

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 23:38:46 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> The machine as supplied is CRAP - but it doesn't take MUCH to make it
> half-assed decent. Get a steel plate welden in place of the
> fence-post.

Clare,

You are making sense. I agree with you. I only shoved the fence post in
there as an American ingenuity hack, but the real solution would be to weld
in some steel reinforcement, I agree.

To that end, I have a friend who will sell me his old oxy acetylene setup,
so, I will pick that up soon (the tanks are empty so I will need to fill
them up). I'll learn how to weld, which should be a useful skill anyway.

> Put proper bolts (a bit bigger because the fit is sloppy) into
> properly re-drilled holes, and install washers where necessary to take
> out the slop in the linkages..

This is a great idea Clare, and I appreciate it. There was far too much
slop in those linkages, and, I didn't mention it, but the clovis pin bent
like it was made out of putty when I pulled it out.

So, you're totally correct that there is far too much slop, which allows
the pressure to not be straight down, which not only lessens the force on
the bead, but puts force on the tool to the side where it bends the metal.

The HF tool *is* crap - but it can be reinforced.

> Cut the big handle in half and drive in
> a rod or sched 40 pipe , then weld the thing back together - now it's
> strong enough to do the job without turning into a pretzel.

Clare, this is *another* good idea. I need the big red handle but only
because of the special shape of the *ends*. The middle is not needed (so to
speak) and it's so weak that it bends easily.

So, your idea of cutting it in half and then welding it into a long strong
pipe makes a lot of sense. I am picking up an oxyacetylene welding setup
soon, so, I will keep you informed.

> Then you'll find the next weak point (hint - the guy who welded the
> base legs was onto something)

So far, the legs have been fine, but I didn't mention that there is a crack
in the metal where it is bolted to the concrete, so, again, you are right.

I agree with you that this HF tool is crappy, but, for the price of the
tool plus a bit of welding, it can be made more robust.

> When you are done you'll have a useable tire machine that might last
> you a while. - still not a GREAT machine - but better than what you
> have.

Clare - I totally agree with you.
The HF tool is crappy but it can be shored up where it is weak.
Then it will work for most car tires.
Which is good enough since it is only going to be used once a year anyway.

> If you don't, your comebacks and (sometimes very) dumb questions make
> you look liike an idiot.

I am never afraid to ask a question.
If I wanted to, I could write up a tutoral that *looks* like I knew
everything ahead of time - but I write things as they happen.

I'm not afraid of looking dumb because I am intelligent (very) so I don't
worry like most people do about looking dumb.

I often ask simple questions.
I even ask for directions. :)

> Don't go out of your way to make enemies of the
> guys who can help you understand what you don't know....

This is a fair enough piece of advice.
Thanks for your help and advice for how to shore up the crappy harbor
freight manual tire changer.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 06:35:14 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
<frank...@example.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 20:11:45 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:
>
>> I buy my tires from a reputable local dealer who gets to make the
>> markup on the tires, and charges me $15 canadian to install and
>> balance them.
>
>I think we got a far better deal than you do, because we *thought* about
>the problem set ahead of time, so as to maximize what our money buys.

You don't have a CLUE how I buy my tires or what "thought" goes into
them - and I most certainly would NOT buy tires based primarily on
price.

>
>For example, we chose the tires for their $68 price, and for their 460
>traction, A treadwear, and A temperature ratings, based on the OEM specs
>from Toyota of a 102S P225/75R15 tire for the OEM wheels.
>
>Normally we use Tire Rack but https://simpletire.com/ gave them to us for
>free shipping (which saved $16 per tire right off the bat). It did take
>about 10 days (including the weekend) so that was one drawback, but in
>general, a few days extra time isn't all that critical when deciding to
>replace a set of tires.
>
>So, the total cost for 4 460/A/A tires was, literally, $68 per tire.
>
>> I'm not a cheap-ass who believes he can always get a better deal
>> on-line. I give my business to local businesses - owned by my
>> neighbours, who employ my neighbours and pay local taxes in my
>> community..
>
>Again, you are filled to the brim with cliches, but you're welcome to them.
>This is a *technical* question, not a philosophical one.
>You can wax philosophically on alt.philosophy or alt.economic.theory.

You are being a prick again - it is not becoming.

>
>> That goes for tires, appliances, and just about everything
>> else I buy. If it is available locally, I buy locally. I'm not a rich
>> man - but I make my living here, and I believe my nieghbours should be
>> able to make their living here too. That means sometimes I pay a few
>> dollars more than buying from out of the area - but on the whole I
>> believe I'm getting as good value for my money locally as I would getr
>> anywhere.
>
>You probably should be waxing on alt.philosophy for this post.
>
>> As far as getting your money back, I truly don't believe you will
>> ever make your money back on your DIY tire changing and alignment
>> schemes - because you WILL screw up more than you save. Virtually
>> guaranteed. You have proven you don't understand what is involved.
>
>Heh heh heh heh ... you make me laugh.
>
>You're actually *scared* of people like me.
>Because I can do things that you wouldn't dare do yourself.

You snot-nosed little punk - You have not listened to a word I've
said. I thought for a few minutes I may have misjudgesd you -to
harshly. I take it back.

>
>I may start out ignorant, but I end up knowing far more than you ever will.
>That's not because I'm smarter than you are; I'm just far more willing to
>learn than you are.

YOu are NOT willing to learn - and I doubt your level of automotive
knowledge and experience will EVER approach that of any of they guys
on this list - or particularly guys like myself who have done this
professionally - for a living, for longer than you have been alive.

>
>And, I'm certainly far more willing to give back since I know that the
>power of Usenet is not only being able to ask experts questions, but to
>also give back so that the next person stands on our shoulders.

Which I, and others, have been TRYING to do for you for several
weeks. You appear to be unteachable and unhelpable - or at least a
total ingrate.

>
>Here's an example of classic Usenet giving back to the team:
>https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/alt.home.repair/k2RT8uicrQo/Xn6hZL2-CAAJ

And EVEYTHING you put into that very fine piece is information you
WERE given on this newsgroup.

I'm surprised you actually assimilated enough to figure out how to put
it all together and get the job done. You are definitely not making
yourself any friends - - -

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 13:24:39 +0000, Stormin' Norman

If they don't end up kicking him out on his ass first - it appears
dealing online means he doesn't need to deal with anyone face to face
- he can get yappy without getting his face slapped.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Price "matching" is only good if they will BEAT the lowest price

>
>Under most circumstances, they match the same price you can get elsewhere.
>Um. So what? That's not any better. And, often it's worse (because of sales
>tax and selection considerations.)

And LEGALLY you are REQUIRED to submit the local tax on product you
order in from outside the state if they do not have a business
presence in your state. If they DO have a presence in your state, they
are requireds to charge the tax applicable in your state. Whether this
is enforced or not, I don't know.

>
>The *only* reason, IMHO, to price match, is if there is *something* you get
>for free out of the price match. But if all you get is the same tire at the
>same price that you would have gotten anyway - what's the benefit of price
>matching?
>

>I'd rather give my business to the guy who advertises and sells at the
>lowest price than to the guy who advertises and sells at a higher price who
>only drops his price when you put a gun to his head.

There will always be someone who will sell at a lower price

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

No, respectfully - you need to know WHAT you are doing and WHY before
the HOW makes any sense.

>
>For the Toyota, the only things that can be adjusted are front caster,
>camber, and toe, where caster & camber are adjusted together and toe is
>adjusted separately and last.
>

You still have not said what Toyota SUV- 4runner, Higlander, FJ
Cruiser, older land cruiser, Rav4, Sequoia, or Venza???

>Nothing else is adjustable and there is absolutely no indication anywhere
>that anything is out of alignment, so it's more of a doublecheck than
>anything else.
>
>Caster can be calculated from camber and camber can be measured directly,
>as can toe, so, that's the very simple plan of attack.

The formula is: Caster (deg) = (180 / 3.1415) * [(camber1 - camber2) /
(turnangle1 - turnangle2)]

Basically simplified to 57.3X(camber change/degrees of turn)

Turn the wheel in45 degrees. Measure camber. Turn out 45 degrees,
read camber.. Subtract camber 1 from camber 2 - say the difference is
5 degrees.. 5 devided by 90 = .055, times57.3= 3.18 degrees of caster.

Without slip plates side loading can affect the camber measurements
somewhat which also affects the caster calculation.

So yes, theoretically you CAN measure/calculate caster - but again
accuracy is going to be crucial. Good enough to see if you are close -
not accurate or repeatable enough, in most cases, to make an accurate
fine adjustment. However, the Toyota truck-based SUV front ends are
stout enough that unless you have really bashed it about or fooled
withit, nothing is going to change unless something wears out -----
The turn-angle is critical to the calculation

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

You can use a sledge hammer or an axe if you like to put them on, and
you can beat them off with a chisel, but the proper tool as always it
much easier . And you asked "what tool do you use to remove the
weights. I, and most mechanics, use a weight pliers - so I answered
your question - didn't I???

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 05:03:04 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
<frank...@example.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 23:38:46 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:
>
>> The machine as supplied is CRAP - but it doesn't take MUCH to make it
>> half-assed decent. Get a steel plate welden in place of the
>> fence-post.
>
>Clare,
>
>You are making sense. I agree with you. I only shoved the fence post in
>there as an American ingenuity hack, but the real solution would be to weld
>in some steel reinforcement, I agree.

Actually the REAL solution would be to make a tubular one out of 2
inch square tube - but welding in a plate will do the job

>
>To that end, I have a friend who will sell me his old oxy acetylene setup,
>so, I will pick that up soon (the tanks are empty so I will need to fill
>them up). I'll learn how to weld, which should be a useful skill anyway.

Welding plate like that with an axy-acetylene welder CAN be done, but
it's not a job for beginners. If my only tool was the gas welder, I'd
braze that part - not weld.

>
>> Put proper bolts (a bit bigger because the fit is sloppy) into
>> properly re-drilled holes, and install washers where necessary to take
>> out the slop in the linkages..
>
>This is a great idea Clare, and I appreciate it. There was far too much
>slop in those linkages, and, I didn't mention it, but the clovis pin bent
>like it was made out of putty when I pulled it out.

By the way - it's a CLEVIS pin.

>
>So, you're totally correct that there is far too much slop, which allows
>the pressure to not be straight down, which not only lessens the force on
>the bead, but puts force on the tool to the side where it bends the metal.

The extra slop puts the bolt into bemding stress instead of just shear
-

>
>The HF tool *is* crap - but it can be reinforced.
>
>> Cut the big handle in half and drive in
>> a rod or sched 40 pipe , then weld the thing back together - now it's
>> strong enough to do the job without turning into a pretzel.
>
>Clare, this is *another* good idea. I need the big red handle but only
>because of the special shape of the *ends*. The middle is not needed (so to
>speak) and it's so weak that it bends easily.
>
>So, your idea of cutting it in half and then welding it into a long strong
>pipe makes a lot of sense. I am picking up an oxyacetylene welding setup
>soon, so, I will keep you informed.

Again, I'd stick weld that job - or if all I had was the torch, I'd
braze it - and drill a few small holes and plug braze it too.

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 01:06:53 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> No, respectfully - you need to know WHAT you are doing and WHY before
> the HOW makes any sense.

What I mean is that 99 out of 100 people will tell you why *they* would NOT
do their own tire changes, balance, and alignment.

There's *nothing* they can teach me since I already know everything they
could possibly say (almost).

There are TONS of reasons *not* to do anything:
- why not to go to the moon
- why not to go to North Korea
- why not to sail around the world
etc.

For anything that anyone wants to to, there will be 99 out of 100 people
telling them why *they* would not do it.

But that's not helpful when someone tries to do it.

If I was trying to go to the moon, it's not helpful to tell me that there's
no air on the moon. Or that the moon is far away.

Do you get my point?

a. If I want to change tires, what's helpful is advice on how to change
tires using whatever tools I have at hand

b. If I want to balance tires, what's helpful is advice on how to balance
them, using whatever is at hand and whatever can be bought easily

c. If I want to do my alignment at home, what's helpful is advice on how to
do it.

What's not helpful are jokes and statements that I'm cheap or a litany of
reasons why I should not do it (because I already know all those reasons
because those reasons are why 99 out of 100 people don't do it themselves
so any fool can come up with them).

> You still have not said what Toyota SUV- 4runner, Higlander, FJ
> Cruiser, older land cruiser, Rav4, Sequoia, or Venza???

I don't think anyone asked, or, if they did, I haven't seen it yet.
It's a 4Runner. Pretty simple. It has 4 cams for caster and camber in the
front (nothing in the rear).

It has tie rod ends for the toe.

That's it.

> The formula is: Caster (deg) = (180 / 3.1415) * [(camber1 - camber2) /
> (turnangle1 - turnangle2)]

I was going to get some turntables (I think) so that I can do the 20 degree
(10 to each side) turn angles. That was how I was gonna calculate caster.

> Basically simplified to 57.3X(camber change/degrees of turn)
>
> Turn the wheel in45 degrees. Measure camber. Turn out 45 degrees,
> read camber.. Subtract camber 1 from camber 2 - say the difference is
> 5 degrees.. 5 devided by 90 = .055, times57.3= 3.18 degrees of caster.

This sounds like you know what you're doing because I'm on the Toyota
forums and they suggested something similar. Right now the alignment is
just in the planning stage, since the tires and balancing comes first.

> Without slip plates side loading can affect the camber measurements
> somewhat which also affects the caster calculation.

I think slip plates are in my future.

> So yes, theoretically you CAN measure/calculate caster - but again
> accuracy is going to be crucial. Good enough to see if you are close -
> not accurate or repeatable enough, in most cases, to make an accurate
> fine adjustment.

The spec on the 4Runner is pretty close to 0 camber anyway, and the toe is
really, effectively, 1/16th for each wheel to center line. I forget what
the caster is (I can look it up easily but I'm not near my books) but I'm
not worried about it just yet.

Right now I'm working on the wheels, and I'm reading all the catalogs for
wheel weights from the major manufacturers.

Here is the wheel weight catalog for Plombco, for example:
http://www.completelube.com/AppGuides/Wheel_Weight_Application_Guide_2015.pdf

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 01:10:11 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> You can use a sledge hammer or an axe if you like to put them on, and
> you can beat them off with a chisel, but the proper tool as always it
> much easier . And you asked "what tool do you use to remove the
> weights. I, and most mechanics, use a weight pliers - so I answered
> your question - didn't I???

You are correct and I apologize for changing the rules mid thread.
Yes, I did ask. And I now know what tool they use.

I do like to use good tools, like everyone, and I am not the type normally
to use a hammer for everything, so I will "probably" get the wheel weight
pliers.

I say probably because I may just use the stick-on weights for everything.
I don't know yet. It's also just as likely that I'll use the P-type
crimp-on weights for these steel wheels.

I'm looking at this catalog, for example, and what I "probably" should get
is the following on page 185:
A. Wheel weight pliers and hammer
B. Wheel weight scraper
C. Rim Gauge

http://www.tuffymfg.com/docs/Pg177-188-Wheel%20BalancingSupplies.pdf

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:12:26 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> You don't have a CLUE how I buy my tires or what "thought" goes into
> them - and I most certainly would NOT buy tires based primarily on
> price.

Buying tires is both easy and hard, depending on what criteria you use.

If you read the reviews, you'll go nuts, because they're extremely
inconsistent, and most are from buttmeters which haven't been calibrated
and all suffer from the placebo effect. So reviews are absolutely useless
because only 1 in 100 will be accurate.

There's not much else to go by except UTQG and we all know how government
standards are. But as flawed as it is, it's the best there is.

So I buy tires based on only three things:
1. Fitment (e.g., a 108T is generally better than a 102S)
2. UTQG (never less than Traction A and Temperature A for example)
3. Price (lower is better)

Lotsa people buy tires based on superstition and warranty and brand name,
which they're welcome to do. Some even buy them based on the sidewall
stripe. All the power to them. Not me.

> You are being a prick again - it is not becoming.

I apologize.
You have to realize though, that I'm sick and tired of tired old cliches.
They're fun, like poetry is fun; but they are nearly meaningless.

For example, all the dumbshits on the planet say 'you get what you pay for'
which is ridiculous. You get whatever it is that you get. How much you pay
for it is meaningless to what it is that you get. It would be the same
thing if you got it for free as if you mortgaged your house for it. Price
is never an indication of quality. Only dumbshits think it is because price
is *easy* to measure whereas quality is a lot harder (sometimes) to
measure.

So, for example, if I have a UTQG tire of 400/A/A and it is, say, $100,
where it's a 102S tire, of a certain size, that's a *better* deal than,
say, a 400/A/B tire which is the same load range and size for, say, $200.

I don't care that one is a brand name, or that it has sidewalls, or that
the warranty is whatever it is, or that they say the tread is quiet or that
they say it wicks away water, etc.

BTW, if I *knew* that the tread was quiet, or that it wicked away water
better, then *that* would be an indicator of quality; but what they *say*
is almost always bullshit so it can't be trusted (but should be taken into
account if it is trusted).

> You snot-nosed little punk - You have not listened to a word I've
> said. I thought for a few minutes I may have misjudgesd you -to
> harshly. I take it back.

I apologize. I said in a previous post that I'm gonna be nicer.

> YOu are NOT willing to learn - and I doubt your level of automotive
> knowledge and experience will EVER approach that of any of they guys
> on this list - or particularly guys like myself who have done this
> professionally - for a living, for longer than you have been alive.

Actually, I'm pretty smart. I have very high degrees and I test well (at
least I did when I was in graduate school). But I'm not an automotive
mechanic. I studied the biological sciences. They are a far cry from this
stuff, but the one thing I can handle is data. Lots and lots of data.

The way I learn is by doing experiments and then looking up bits of data.

> I'm surprised you actually assimilated enough to figure out how to put
> it all together and get the job done. You are definitely not making
> yourself any friends - - -

Well, I'm different than most people.
Most people are afraid to admit they made a mistake.
I don't care one bit about admitting I made a mistake.
And I made plenty of mistakes when I changed that tire and the one today.
Mistakes are part of learning.

What I could have done (which many people do) is write up this idealistic
DIY that assumes I didn't make any mistakes (such as bending the
bead-breaking wedge). I could easily have written it all up so that it
looks like I'm a genius.

But I write what happened and I'm not in the least trying to impress
anyone.

I just ask questions and if I don't get answers, I find them out on my own
(if possible). That's all I'm doing here.

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:14:46 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> If they don't end up kicking him out on his ass first - it appears
> dealing online means he doesn't need to deal with anyone face to face
> - he can get yappy without getting his face slapped.

I'm actually nice to the people at all stores.
They know me by name at the auto parts stores for example.
And I am nice to the tire guys at Costco (they even gave me the black goop
to put inside the tire we repaired today to cover over the patch since I
couldnt' find it in the stores).

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:20:56 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> Price "matching" is only good if they will BEAT the lowest price

I agree with that statement.
Only that's not price "matching"; that's price "beating" which is a good
thing.

Matching, as far as I can tell, is useless, unless (as I said) you get
something hidden for free (like no tax or less time or no shipping or
whatever).

> And LEGALLY you are REQUIRED to submit the local tax on product you
> order in from outside the state if they do not have a business
> presence in your state. If they DO have a presence in your state, they
> are requireds to charge the tax applicable in your state. Whether this
> is enforced or not, I don't know.

That's debatable but I'm not a tax lawyer or accountant so I can't tell you
if it is or not since interstate commerce is a tricky thing which is
regulated federally and not by the states.

Suffice to say it's not enforced anyway, and, if it was, it would merely
shove almost all commerce overseas where it couldn't be enforced.

It's how "fluid" things work.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

If you are only going to static balance anyway, stock only the
stik-on weights and apply them to the CENTER of the rim. That way you
are not splitting weights and quite possibly making the dynamic
balance worse. It is also the onlr economical way of having the weight
you require for all situations. When "roughing" the balance plsce the
weighy at the point you will be installing it (an inch or two in from
the bead, on most of those rims) - it will take a wee bit more weight
in there, but you won't throw them nearly as easily, being held in
place by rotational force as well as the tape.

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:02:27 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> If they are busy- rushed off their feet mounting their customers'
> tires - purchased from them - why would they install tires you got
> somewhere else, making the wait for their customers even longer?
> Stop. Think. Understand. It's BUSINESS.

I have no problem NOT asking Costco to mount other people's tires.
I'm the guy mounting my own tires, so, I'm not gonna argue with Costco to
mount them.

To me, the process is simple:
1. Buy the best tires at the lowest price
2. Have them shipped (preferably for free) to my house
3. Mount and balance them at the house

> Depends on your tolerance - and the hassle you have to go through
> when you have problems with your on-line-ordered stuff (and it is
> WHEN, not IF - it WILL happen!!!)

Like anyone, I've had issues with shipped goods, but, heck. A tire is a big
rubber round thing. It isn't gonna break in shipping. It's not gonna get
scratched. It's not gonna be the wrong size usually, or the wrong color.

So, as risk goes, sure, there is risk ... but not a lot of risk with tires.

> They are great for anything you use a lot of and therfore buy in
> quantity.

Yup. I buy boxes of paper from Costco, and boxes of motor oil, and shop
rags, and piles of batteries!

> Did you see they are opening some new locations that go "back to
> basics" - back to where they started - as a wholesale supplier for
> small businesses???

No. I didn't know about that. I started with "Price Club" which turned into
Costco at some point. I remember Sams being around. But Costco is mostly
for "people" it seems, although I do see people buying tons of bottled
water and I think "can't they get it cheaper at a "real" wholesale place"?

> That's what they were when I first dealt with them. They will have no
> custom meat cutting, no tire and auto center, no eye-glasses or
> hearing aids or jewelry a,d a whole lot less apparel - but more range
> in office equipment and supplies, tools, etc that small businesses
> will need - and cater more to the "mom-and-pop" stores and eateries
> with their foodstuffs etc..

Speaking of meat, I buy the $120 New York Strip and slice it myself
(there's a bit of fat to be gotten rid of, but no bones). It's a great
deal. I get about a dozen steaks out of a $120 hunk of beef.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 06:47:31 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
<frank...@example.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:12:26 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:
>
>> You don't have a CLUE how I buy my tires or what "thought" goes into
>> them - and I most certainly would NOT buy tires based primarily on
>> price.
>
>Buying tires is both easy and hard, depending on what criteria you use.
>
>If you read the reviews, you'll go nuts, because they're extremely
>inconsistent, and most are from buttmeters which haven't been calibrated
>and all suffer from the placebo effect. So reviews are absolutely useless
>because only 1 in 100 will be accurate.
>
>There's not much else to go by except UTQG and we all know how government
>standards are. But as flawed as it is, it's the best there is.
>
>So I buy tires based on only three things:
>1. Fitment (e.g., a 108T is generally better than a 102S)

You DO understand what thoise numbers mean???? The 102S is good for
1874 lbs PER TIRE and 112MPH - definitely more than adequate for a
4Runner. You do not need a 2205 lb weight rating at 118MPH on a
4Runner!!!

>2. UTQG (never less than Traction A and Temperature A for example)
>3. Price (lower is better)

The traction rating on tires for the Runner don't tell anywhere NEAR
the whole story. It only indicates straight line stopping perfornance
and has nothing to do with cornering grip. It is quite possible to
have a C traction tire outperform a AA in lateral grip - so buyinf by
UTQG is really pretty much going in blind when you come right down to
it.

Same for the temperature grading. A 108t b rated will run cooler on
your truck than a 102t A grade in many cases. Again - just buying
"numbers" isn't telling you much.

On my truck I'm running Michelin Latitude touring for the summer and
Nokian Hakkepillita R2 winters.

On the Taurus I'm running TigerPaw Touring 95V tires (the expensive
tiger paw touring - not the cheap)

>
>Lotsa people buy tires based on superstition and warranty and brand name,
>which they're welcome to do. Some even buy them based on the sidewall
>stripe. All the power to them. Not me.
>
>> You are being a prick again - it is not becoming.
>
>I apologize.
>You have to realize though, that I'm sick and tired of tired old cliches.
>They're fun, like poetry is fun; but they are nearly meaningless.
>
>For example, all the dumbshits on the planet say 'you get what you pay for'
>which is ridiculous. You get whatever it is that you get. How much you pay
>for it is meaningless to what it is that you get. It would be the same
>thing if you got it for free as if you mortgaged your house for it. Price
>is never an indication of quality. Only dumbshits think it is because price
>is *easy* to measure whereas quality is a lot harder (sometimes) to
>measure.

The smart man realizes you ONLY get what you pay for, generally
speaking. In other words - in another cliche - there is "no free
ride".
Generally if it sounds to good to be true, it is. Sometimes there are
real DEALS out there - but they are few and far between.

>
>So, for example, if I have a UTQG tire of 400/A/A and it is, say, $100,
>where it's a 102S tire, of a certain size, that's a *better* deal than,
>say, a 400/A/B tire which is the same load range and size for, say, $200.
>
>I don't care that one is a brand name, or that it has sidewalls, or that
>the warranty is whatever it is, or that they say the tread is quiet or that
>they say it wicks away water, etc.

Mabee you should. If you drive in wet conditions at speed, a AA
traction tire that has no lateral traction (stability) can be DEADLY.

I also drove competetive autosports (rallye) - so I know a bit about
tires. That couple of square inches of tire patch is ALL that is
keeping you on the road. I'm sorry - but your tire understanding
leaves a LOT to be desiresd. You can learn from those of us who know,
or you can remain (possibly dangerously) ignorant. by yur own choice.
It IS what you learn after you know it all that really counts - I know
- another cliche - but true.

>
>BTW, if I *knew* that the tread was quiet, or that it wicked away water
>better, then *that* would be an indicator of quality; but what they *say*
>is almost always bullshit so it can't be trusted (but should be taken into
>account if it is trusted).

You need to learn what to trust. DB ratings in proper reviews don't
lie. Nore do "peer reviewed" scientific studies. The skid pan doesn't
lie - nor do track times in doble blind comparrisons. THAT is the
kind of information I use to chose tires - and why I spent the money
for the Haks for the ranger. An unloaded pickup with limited slip
needes all the help it can get when the roads get slick

>
>> You snot-nosed little punk - You have not listened to a word I've
>> said. I thought for a few minutes I may have misjudgesd you -to
>> harshly. I take it back.
>
>I apologize. I said in a previous post that I'm gonna be nicer.
>
>> YOu are NOT willing to learn - and I doubt your level of automotive
>> knowledge and experience will EVER approach that of any of they guys
>> on this list - or particularly guys like myself who have done this
>> professionally - for a living, for longer than you have been alive.
>
>Actually, I'm pretty smart. I have very high degrees and I test well (at
>least I did when I was in graduate school). But I'm not an automotive
>mechanic. I studied the biological sciences. They are a far cry from this
>stuff, but the one thing I can handle is data. Lots and lots of data.

Your degrees don't meen squat - nor does your IQ. Nor does mine. The
fact that I graduated at the top of my class and wrote the highest
marks on my licence exam that had ever been written at that time means
NOTHING. It's what I learned AFTER that. The fact my younger brother
beat my score by 1/100% 7 years later doesn't make him a better
mechanic than me either . IF he's a better mechanic it's because he's
stayed at it about 15 years longer than I did

>
>The way I learn is by doing experiments and then looking up bits of data.
>
>> I'm surprised you actually assimilated enough to figure out how to put
>> it all together and get the job done. You are definitely not making
>> yourself any friends - - -
>
>Well, I'm different than most people.
>Most people are afraid to admit they made a mistake.
>I don't care one bit about admitting I made a mistake.
>And I made plenty of mistakes when I changed that tire and the one today.
>Mistakes are part of learning.

The average man learns from his own mistakes. The wise man learns
from the mistakes of others - and the fool never learns because he
never maked mistakes - I know - another cliche but very true and very
applicable. You will never live long enough to make all the mistakes
yourself. Too many of the mistakes can be either deadly or
self-limitting. Learn from some of us who have the experience - some
learned from our own mistakes, and some from the experience and
mistakes of others.

>
>What I could have done (which many people do) is write up this idealistic
>DIY that assumes I didn't make any mistakes (such as bending the
>bead-breaking wedge). I could easily have written it all up so that it
>looks like I'm a genius.
>
>But I write what happened and I'm not in the least trying to impress
>anyone.

I understand that - but your initial approach was EXTREMELY
off-puting. I know some of "us geniuses" (ha ha ha) have that problem

>
>I just ask questions and if I don't get answers, I find them out on my own
>(if possible). That's all I'm doing here.

You get answers. You just don't accept them. I've answered just about
every (technical) question you asked and you've blown me off.
Rou have been EXTREMELY disrespectful to the guys here that know
things and would try to help you. You piss them off, you pay the
price.

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 01:17:22 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> Actually the REAL solution would be to make a tubular one out of 2
> inch square tube - but welding in a plate will do the job

I understand, In fact, I thought I saw a video where the guy did exactly
that. But, for me, for now, strapping in a block of wood will work, and,
when I get the oxyacetylene setup, I can weld a plate or crossbars or
whatever.

> Welding plate like that with an axy-acetylene welder CAN be done, but
> it's not a job for beginners. If my only tool was the gas welder, I'd
> braze that part - not weld.

I won't be that good yet. The friend has a 220VAC arc welder he said he'd
give me, for free though.

> By the way - it's a CLEVIS pin.

Oooooooh. Thank you! I didn't look it up, but my spellchecker kept
bothering me so I capitalized it a few times, and the spellchecker shut up,
so, I figured it was Clovis.

Thank you for correcting me. I am indebted to you because most people
wouldn't bother on the Usenet for that but I, for one, appreciate the
correction.

Thanks!

> Again, I'd stick weld that job - or if all I had was the torch, I'd
> braze it - and drill a few small holes and plug braze it too.

I'm not gonna be that good at welding.

But, one thing you bring up is that *any* bar will do for breaking the weld
so I probably can just NOT use the red bar that comes with the tool.

Then I would only use the red bar for removing the already-broken bead from
the rim and placing it back on.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

It can be enforced there too. Customs agents can tighten up the
border so tight a flea couldn't get through. If they think there is
enough money to be had to make it worth while, and the state
governments work alonf with the feds instead of being ignorant about
everything, the Feds can enforce the state tax laws too. Everything
coming in gets taxed according to it's destination - no exceptions -
and both the states and the feds win - and Trump gets to "Make America
Great Again"

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 02:00:51 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> If you are only going to static balance anyway, stock only the
> stik-on weights and apply them to the CENTER of the rim. That way you
> are not splitting weights and quite possibly making the dynamic
> balance worse. It is also the onlr economical way of having the weight
> you require for all situations. When "roughing" the balance plsce the
> weighy at the point you will be installing it (an inch or two in from
> the bead, on most of those rims) - it will take a wee bit more weight
> in there, but you won't throw them nearly as easily, being held in
> place by rotational force as well as the tape.

Clare, that's good advice.

The beauty of the stickon weights for home use is that they fit everything,
and they don't need special tools, and they can be easily stocked in
assorted sizes and they can be easily sliced in half if necessary, etc.

So, if stickon weights work for steel wheels, they should be given a chance
to work. The flat areas of the rim are gonna be along the inside anyway,
near to the center anyway, whereas the crimp-on weights would be along the
outside edge.

I already have plenty of stickon weights because I picked them up at HF
already.

Thanks for the encouragement to use them, as the P-type weights (which
pretty much is what the Toyota steel wheels seem to use) would need to be
obtained in all sorts of sizes and they wouldn't work for all wheels like
the stickons can.

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 02:43:07 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> It can be enforced there too. Customs agents can tighten up the
> border so tight a flea couldn't get through. If they think there is
> enough money to be had to make it worth while, and the state
> governments work alonf with the feds instead of being ignorant about
> everything, the Feds can enforce the state tax laws too. Everything
> coming in gets taxed according to it's destination - no exceptions -
> and both the states and the feds win - and Trump gets to "Make America
> Great Again"

I know economic history pretty well.

Two things specifically:
1. The power to tax involves the power to destroy, and,
2. There is always a "Black Market" which will spring up the moment those
wonderfully efficient customs agents tighten up the border.

Hell, they build tunnels, for heavens sake, under the border between the US
and Mexico just to slip drugs through past those wonderful customs agents.

Take just one example of what you're saying, which was when Jim Florio
added a tax on new trucks newly registered in New Jersey. Guess what
happened? (it's a fascinating story).

Basically you can't tax something without risking killing it.
Taxes are like small doses of poison.
Too much, and you kill the golden goose.

That's why there is no effective tax on things bought out of state.
If they did make that tax effective, two things would happen:
a. They'd kill what they taxed, and,
b. A black market would spring up

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 02:38:46 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> You DO understand what thoise numbers mean???? The 102S is good for
> 1874 lbs PER TIRE and 112MPH - definitely more than adequate for a
> 4Runner. You do not need a 2205 lb weight rating at 118MPH on a
> 4Runner!!!

Yeah, I understand tire numbers probably better than most people do because
I buy tires by the specs so that's *all* I base a tire purchase on (other
than price, but without meeting the spec, the price doesn't matter).

The OEM tires are 102S (I put the S there even though it's the speed
rarting because they go together). So a 108T is heavier duty and faster.

The funny thing is that the UTQG "Temperature" rating of the 108T tires is
only B while the UTQG temperature rating of the 102S is A, where
temperature is temperature but it's really mostly a function of speed,
which is odd that it's a slower speed-rated tire but a hotter temperature
rated tire.

Oddities exist in the specs.

> The traction rating on tires for the Runner don't tell anywhere NEAR
> the whole story. It only indicates straight line stopping perfornance
> and has nothing to do with cornering grip. It is quite possible to
> have a C traction tire outperform a AA in lateral grip - so buyinf by
> UTQG is really pretty much going in blind when you come right down to
> it.

Yeah. It's not lateral g forces but you know what?
You got something better?
I realize that UTQG is flawed but what are you gonna use without it?

The "reviews" are so terrible that it makes me sick to just read them.
Only 1 out of 100 of the reviews is accurate to any degree and they don't
generally test them on the same vehicle with the same driving conditions,
so, even that 1 out of 100 that is accurate is for some other vehicle.

What's left?

> Same for the temperature grading. A 108t b rated will run cooler on
> your truck than a 102t A grade in many cases. Again - just buying
> "numbers" isn't telling you much.

Again. You got something better than the specs?
If so, I'm all ears, but if you tell me you believe the bullshit
advertising claims then don't bother. Or, if you believe the utterly
useless reviews, then again, don't bother.

And don't say warranty either, because that's completely bogus.
Name brand is also bogus because all tires are safe that are sold in the
USA.

So, I buy by the spec.
What does anyone have for choosing tires that is better than the specs?

> The smart man realizes you ONLY get what you pay for, generally
> speaking. In other words - in another cliche - there is "no free
> ride".

What most people don't understand is that YOU, as an individual, rarely get
to determine the set price of anything.

What I mean by that is that you don't pay the price that you are willing to
pay so much as you pay the price that everyone else is willing to pay.

So, for example, if people are willing to stand outside an Apple store for
hours in the rain just so that they can pay $800 for a cellphone, then you
aren't going to get that cellphone for, say, $500 on that same day.

The price isn't set by what YOU are willing to pay; the price is set by
what the *masses* are willing to pay. So what does *advertising* do? They
influence the masses. Specifically, they inflate the perceived value of the
product so that the masses are willing to pay more for that product.

Is it a better product? Maybe. Maybe not. But that's meaningless. It's
marketing's job to raise what the *masses* think it is worth (like high
octane gasoline). The one guy like you and me who know that our cars do
better on the lower octane stuff they're designed for won't pay that
premium price. But if we *wanted* that iPhone or that high octane gas, we
don't pay what it's worth. We have to pay what the masses are willing to
pay.

And, get this ... the masses are (fundamentally) stupid.
SO the problem is that the price is set by the masses, who are stupid.

The masses wouldn't know quality if it hit them in the face.
Just look at how many people pay extra for high-octane gasoline for a car
designed for the low octane stuff or for gold trim on their iPhone. They
don't get any better quality. They just jack up the price for the rest of
us.

> Generally if it sounds to good to be true, it is. Sometimes there are
> real DEALS out there - but they are few and far between.

We just bought these four tires for either $58 or $58 each (I forget, I
think I said 68 but I think it was really 58). I could have gotten *plenty*
of tires at plenty of other prices, from that price to $150 each. Are they
better tires? Some were (e.g., traction AA or treadwear 700 perhaps) but,
in reality, I think we got a good deal of about $240 for four tires where
the installation is free (yes, I know, the tools cost me so the
installation will take two years to be free).

> Mabee you should. If you drive in wet conditions at speed, a AA
> traction tire that has no lateral traction (stability) can be DEADLY.

Do you see the huge flaw in your logic?
I can't disagree with your words, but your words are sophistry because you
don't *know* whether you have lateral traction in *any* tire.

I buy contintenals, for example, for my bike, and they cost a lot, but
that's only because I know the tire intimately, and I like the feel of
them. But for someone else, on some other bike? I wouldn't have a clue how
they'd perform, and I'm not qualified to advise them anyway.

SO what are YOU going on if you were to say that your tires have greater
lateral traction than my tires?

I'm not saying that yours do, or that yours don't.
And I'm not saying that you said yours do.

All I'm saying is that you have no way of knowing what the lateral traction
is unless you personally tested the tires, and if you did, then your
personal tests don't apply to someone else who drives a different vehicle
under different conditions.

So, my point is that if you have lateral traction specs, great.
But you don't.
And neither does anyone else.

The only thing you have are the specs.
Which is why I buy by the specs.

> I also drove competetive autosports (rallye) - so I know a bit about
> tires. That couple of square inches of tire patch is ALL that is
> keeping you on the road. I'm sorry - but your tire understanding
> leaves a LOT to be desiresd.

Actually, let's just agree to disagree on how well I know tires.

Most people *think* they know a lot about tires, but all they know is what
the marketing guys told them. That's bullshit. They know absolutely nothing
about tires if what they know comes from marketing bullshit.

If you know the lateral g-force traction of your tires, just tell me what
it is.

It's a simple number of Gs (less than one).
Tell me.
What is it?

Then if you give me a number, I'm gonna ask where you got it.
Most people pull that number out of a very dark place.

I'm sure the tire manufacturer measured it but they don't give you those
numbers. And they depend on a shitload of conditions anyway.

My only point is that measured numbers are GREAT.
But nobody has them.
Not typical consumers anyway.

> You can learn from those of us who know,
> or you can remain (possibly dangerously) ignorant. by yur own choice.
> It IS what you learn after you know it all that really counts - I know
> - another cliche - but true.

What I know about tires is that there is a shitload of bullshit that people
*believe* they know about tires.

I also know that nobody has the specs they make believe they have (well,
I'm talking consumers - I'm sure racers who pay $10K for a set of tires
know a lot of tested parameters).

So, take this lateral g-force spec.
What's the lateral g's (less than one) that your tires generate?

If you give me a number, I have to then ask where'd you get that number?
That's my whole point.

Nobody has the numbers (not consumers, anyway).
The only numbers the consumer has are the published specs.

> You need to learn what to trust.

I am old enough to know almost nothing can be trusted that isn't enforced
by law and threat of punishment. Take the VW situation, where they gamed
the system. The only thing stopping them is the huge fines that are going
to result.

Without those huge fines, they'd still be telling us that VW diesels are
zippy *and* fuel efficient.

You and I know tires well. I know that, for example, lateral G's are
important. But where are you gonna get the numbers to compare consumer
tires against?

My only point is that if we had the numbers for all the tires we are
considering buying, then, sure, use those numbers.

But where are you gonna get those numbers?

> DB ratings in proper reviews don't
> lie. Nore do "peer reviewed" scientific studies. The skid pan doesn't
> lie - nor do track times in doble blind comparrisons.

C'mon. You can't expect me to believe that can you?

You know as well as I do that if those statements were actually true, we'd
both be in heaven.

But, the sheer raw unfortunate fact is that, for a set of consumer tires,
I'm not going to have access to those numbers for all the tires I'm
considering, and, even if I did have those numbers, they're tremendously
dependent on the test conditions, the vehicle, the way it's driven, and
even the weather that day.

What's funny is that you're actually saying the exact same thing I'm
saying, which is that you buy by the numbers.

The only difference is that you're intimating that you *have* far more
numbers than I have (or anyone else has), and I'm asking you *where* you
got them from.

If "I" had those numbers, I'd buy by those numbers too.

But I don't think any consumer has those numbers for the dozen or two dozen
tires he's comparing when he makes his buying decision.

> THAT is the
> kind of information I use to chose tires - and why I spent the money
> for the Haks for the ranger. An unloaded pickup with limited slip
> needes all the help it can get when the roads get slick

Again, you and I are essentially saying the same thing, which is that we
buy tires by the performance metric numbers.

The only difference is that you're intimating you have a super secret stash
of these performance numbers, and I'm asking you where you get them from.

Because if I had those numbers, I'd buy by those numbers too.

> Your degrees don't meen squat - nor does your IQ. Nor does mine.

Actually, they do mean a lot. And so does yours.

A college degree, and especially higher level degrees *proves* that a
person can do a shitload of things that are complex, and which takes months
(at the very least) and years (in general) to accomplish, and, that they
can do those complex tasks well enough that about 30 to 40 different
professors (some of whom are assholes) have given them high enough marks to
pass (and preferably better than that).

A guy who can't even garner a GED might be just as capable, but there's no
proof of that.

Just like a tire might be capable of garnering 0.90Gs but without a
reliable test report backing it up, there's no proof of that.

> You get answers. You just don't accept them. I've answered just about
> every (technical) question you asked and you've blown me off.

I disagree but that one is in the eye of the beholder.

For example, you suggested a $500 tire mounting machine, but the
manufacturer warns that it shouldn't be used for passenger tires. Then you
suggested shoring it up (which is fine) but how is that any different than
shoring up the one I already have (which is intended for passenger tires).

So, we simply have a different attitude but that doesn't mean I blew you

off.

> Rou have been EXTREMELY disrespectful to the guys here that know
> things and would try to help you. You piss them off, you pay the
> price.

Actually, there were only about three or four people who tried to help.
The rest just trolled.

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:52:24 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron advised:

> Basically you can't tax something without risking killing it.

Just to give you an idea of what happened when Florio taxed trucks in New
Jersey, you can read this one sentence:

Flori's truck tax "was meant to raise $44 million but failed to do more
than shift truck sales to other states."

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/11/20/nyregion/new-jersey-votes-to-repeal-truck-sales-tax.html


Here is another sentence, before they repealed the tax:
"The sales tax, which added thousands of dollars to the price of trucks,
had threatened to drive the state's 1,500 truck dealers out of business, as
buyers went to Pennsylvania and other states that have no such tax. "

"http://www.nytimes.com/1990/11/09/nyregion/first-step-of-florio-s-tax-retreat-repealing-assessment-on-trucks.html


This article explains a bit more what happens when you tax a fluid item:
http://www.nytimes.com/1990/08/17/nyregion/new-jersey-may-scrap-tax-on-trucks-as-sales-plunge.html

"''This has the makings of a disaster,'' he said. ''There isn't going to
be much here in the way of truck and parts sales. In addition, the truckers
will simply set up small terminals across the borders in Delaware,
Pennsylvania or New York, and the state will lose registration fees, which
range from $600 to $800 a truck.''

Of course, the power to destroy works in reverse too:
In 1977, New Jersey was the first state in the Northeast to exempt heavy
trucks from the sales tax, Mr. Walton said, and in the four years it took
for Pennsylvania, New York and most of New England to follow suit, the
state's trucking industry boomed.

''We became the trucking hub for New York and Long Island,'' he said.

The only Northeast state that did not exempt heavy trucks from its sales
tax was Connecticut, and the number of heavy-truck dealers in that state
has dropped to seven from 42 in the last decade, Mr. Walton said. ''If we
don't restore our exemption, we'll go the way of Connecticut,'' he said.

[Stormin' Norman]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 05:03:04 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
<frank...@example.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 23:38:46 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:
>
>> The machine as supplied is CRAP - but it doesn't take MUCH to make it
>> half-assed decent. Get a steel plate welden in place of the
>> fence-post.
>
>Clare,
>
>You are making sense. I agree with you. I only shoved the fence post in
>there as an American ingenuity hack, but the real solution would be to weld
>in some steel reinforcement, I agree.
>
>To that end, I have a friend who will sell me his old oxy acetylene setup,
>so, I will pick that up soon (the tanks are empty so I will need to fill
>them up). I'll learn how to weld, which should be a useful skill anyway.
>

The current price of acetylene should give you heartburn. I
reconfigured my gas brazing / welding rig to use propane instead.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 07:02:03 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
<frank...@example.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:02:27 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:
>
>> If they are busy- rushed off their feet mounting their customers'
>> tires - purchased from them - why would they install tires you got
>> somewhere else, making the wait for their customers even longer?
>> Stop. Think. Understand. It's BUSINESS.
>
>I have no problem NOT asking Costco to mount other people's tires.
>I'm the guy mounting my own tires, so, I'm not gonna argue with Costco to
>mount them.
>
>To me, the process is simple:
>1. Buy the best tires at the lowest price
>2. Have them shipped (preferably for free) to my house
>3. Mount and balance them at the house
>
>> Depends on your tolerance - and the hassle you have to go through
>> when you have problems with your on-line-ordered stuff (and it is
>> WHEN, not IF - it WILL happen!!!)
>
>Like anyone, I've had issues with shipped goods, but, heck. A tire is a big
>rubber round thing. It isn't gonna break in shipping. It's not gonna get
>scratched. It's not gonna be the wrong size usually, or the wrong color.

But it might take 6 ounces to balance, or go down the road like a 3
legged dog, or just plain be a really SHITTY set of $69 tires - - -

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

I believe the scientifically done tire tests - nothing less than
double blind, with 3 or more testers on both sets of tires.

>
>And don't say warranty either, because that's completely bogus.
>Name brand is also bogus because all tires are safe that are sold in the
>USA.

Warranty is only a very small indicator of quality -in that if they
were really shitty tires they could not afford to warrantee them.
Rather have a tire with a 90 day warrantee last 6 years than a tire
with a 5 year warrantee replaced every 90 days, if you get the drift.

Also "all tires sold in the US are safe" - - Nope. Remember Firestone
721s?? There were quite a few really dangerous tires sold in the USA.
Uniroyal Zeta 40M was another if I remember correctly (treads flying
off at even low speeds) and "safe" is pretty subjective. I want a tire
that PERFORMS -and that is where the big difference in tires shows up
- both actual PERFORMANCE, and how well and long they stand up. The
combination of good performance - traction, ride, handling, noise etc
wih long life is the nearly unobtainable holy grail.

>So, I buy by the spec.
>What does anyone have for choosing tires that is better than the specs?

REAL test data.

>
>> The smart man realizes you ONLY get what you pay for, generally
>> speaking. In other words - in another cliche - there is "no free
>> ride".
>
>What most people don't understand is that YOU, as an individual, rarely get
>to determine the set price of anything.

You do get to determine what you are willing to pay, and to decide
what constitutes VALUE for you

>
>What I mean by that is that you don't pay the price that you are willing to
>pay so much as you pay the price that everyone else is willing to pay.

Nope. If I'm not willing to pay the price, I don't buy. Totally my
choice.

>
>So, for example, if people are willing to stand outside an Apple store for
>hours in the rain just so that they can pay $800 for a cellphone, then you
>aren't going to get that cellphone for, say, $500 on that same day.

No, but you might buy it for $450 in 3 months when the next "fruit of
the day" is released. Being an "earlt adopter" is being a "pioneer" -
defined as the guy laying on his belly in the dust with an arrow in
his back - - - Also known as "bleeding edge"

>
>The price isn't set by what YOU are willing to pay; the price is set by
>what the *masses* are willing to pay. So what does *advertising* do? They
>influence the masses. Specifically, they inflate the perceived value of the
>product so that the masses are willing to pay more for that product.
>
>Is it a better product? Maybe. Maybe not. But that's meaningless. It's
>marketing's job to raise what the *masses* think it is worth (like high
>octane gasoline). The one guy like you and me who know that our cars do
>better on the lower octane stuff they're designed for won't pay that
>premium price. But if we *wanted* that iPhone or that high octane gas, we
>don't pay what it's worth. We have to pay what the masses are willing to
>pay.
>
>And, get this ... the masses are (fundamentally) stupid.
>SO the problem is that the price is set by the masses, who are stupid.

Remember, you are just one of the masses. Nothing about you makes you
special - and PLEASE don't say "superior intelect"

>
>The masses wouldn't know quality if it hit them in the face.
>Just look at how many people pay extra for high-octane gasoline for a car
>designed for the low octane stuff or for gold trim on their iPhone. They
>don't get any better quality. They just jack up the price for the rest of
>us.
>

How does comeone else buying premium fuel affect what you pay for the
lowest octane fuel you can buy?? What effect does it have on you?
And yes, SOME vehicles "designed for" regular gas really DO benefit
from running premium - I run nothing BUT premium in my seasonal
equipment rngines. Always have - always will.

>
>> Generally if it sounds to good to be true, it is. Sometimes there are
>> real DEALS out there - but they are few and far between.
>
>We just bought these four tires for either $58 or $58 each (I forget, I
>think I said 68 but I think it was really 58). I could have gotten *plenty*
>of tires at plenty of other prices, from that price to $150 each. Are they
>better tires? Some were (e.g., traction AA or treadwear 700 perhaps) but,
>in reality, I think we got a good deal of about $240 for four tires where
>the installation is free (yes, I know, the tools cost me so the
>installation will take two years to be free).

What brand tires??? I know you don;t look at brands in a choice.
The tires I just put on my wifes car are made by Salun - a Chinese
brand - which just HAPPENS to be the highest quality independent
chinese tire maker.. I did a lot of investigating before buying those
tires - they meet my requirements on a low mileage 15 year old town
car.

>
>> Mabee you should. If you drive in wet conditions at speed, a AA
>> traction tire that has no lateral traction (stability) can be DEADLY.
>
>Do you see the huge flaw in your logic?
>I can't disagree with your words, but your words are sophistry because you
>don't *know* whether you have lateral traction in *any* tire.

Damned right I do.

>
>I buy contintenals, for example, for my bike, and they cost a lot, but
>that's only because I know the tire intimately, and I like the feel of
>them. But for someone else, on some other bike? I wouldn't have a clue how
>they'd perform, and I'm not qualified to advise them anyway.
>
>SO what are YOU going on if you were to say that your tires have greater
>lateral traction than my tires?
>

Actual skid pan testing - the only thing that really matters is when
the rubber really hits the road.

>I'm not saying that yours do, or that yours don't.
>And I'm not saying that you said yours do.
>
>All I'm saying is that you have no way of knowing what the lateral traction
>is unless you personally tested the tires, and if you did, then your
>personal tests don't apply to someone else who drives a different vehicle
>under different conditions.

I say BS. As a competition driver, I know what to look for - and
where.

>
>So, my point is that if you have lateral traction specs, great.
>But you don't.
>And neither does anyone else.

Yes, sometimes I do.

>
>The only thing you have are the specs.
>Which is why I buy by the specs.

Nope. I have to dissagree with you. 2 tires can have the exact same
specs and be TOTALLY different tires.

>
>> I also drove competetive autosports (rallye) - so I know a bit about
>> tires. That couple of square inches of tire patch is ALL that is
>> keeping you on the road. I'm sorry - but your tire understanding
>> leaves a LOT to be desiresd.
>
>Actually, let's just agree to disagree on how well I know tires.
>
>Most people *think* they know a lot about tires, but all they know is what
>the marketing guys told them. That's bullshit. They know absolutely nothing
>about tires if what they know comes from marketing bullshit.
>
>If you know the lateral g-force traction of your tires, just tell me what
>it is.
>
>It's a simple number of Gs (less than one).
>Tell me.
>What is it?

Which tires? On what surface?
Which is why specs don't mean squat.

>
>Then if you give me a number, I'm gonna ask where you got it.
>Most people pull that number out of a very dark place.
>
>I'm sure the tire manufacturer measured it but they don't give you those
>numbers. And they depend on a shitload of conditions anyway.
>
>My only point is that measured numbers are GREAT.
>But nobody has them.
>Not typical consumers anyway.

You clain to NOT be a typical consumer. You are smartere than the
average bear. I'm not the typical consumer either because I work a
lot harder for my money - and on my purchases.

>
>> You can learn from those of us who know,
>> or you can remain (possibly dangerously) ignorant. by yur own choice.
>> It IS what you learn after you know it all that really counts - I know
>> - another cliche - but true.
>
>What I know about tires is that there is a shitload of bullshit that people
>*believe* they know about tires.

And you've fallen for the most obvious - ratings that are not based
on anything - cannot be confirmed, and are USUALLY bogus.

>
>I also know that nobody has the specs they make believe they have (well,
>I'm talking consumers - I'm sure racers who pay $10K for a set of tires
>know a lot of tested parameters).
>
>So, take this lateral g-force spec.
>What's the lateral g's (less than one) that your tires generate?
>
>If you give me a number, I have to then ask where'd you get that number?
>That's my whole point.
>
>Nobody has the numbers (not consumers, anyway).
>The only numbers the consumer has are the published specs.

Try Smithers RAPRA.

Or tire testing done by KAL Tire, among others

No use giving you facts - because you don't believe them Sometimes the
most intelligent are the stupidest when it comes to life.

>
>> You need to learn what to trust.
>
>I am old enough to know almost nothing can be trusted that isn't enforced
>by law and threat of punishment. Take the VW situation, where they gamed
>the system. The only thing stopping them is the huge fines that are going
>to result.
>
>Without those huge fines, they'd still be telling us that VW diesels are
>zippy *and* fuel efficient.

They ARE - they just aren't CLEAN or LEGAL

>
>You and I know tires well. I know that, for example, lateral G's are
>important. But where are you gonna get the numbers to compare consumer
>tires against?
>
>My only point is that if we had the numbers for all the tires we are
>considering buying, then, sure, use those numbers.
>
>But where are you gonna get those numbers?
>
>> DB ratings in proper reviews don't
>> lie. Nore do "peer reviewed" scientific studies. The skid pan doesn't
>> lie - nor do track times in doble blind comparrisons.
>
>C'mon. You can't expect me to believe that can you?
>
>You know as well as I do that if those statements were actually true, we'd
>both be in heaven.
>
>But, the sheer raw unfortunate fact is that, for a set of consumer tires,
>I'm not going to have access to those numbers for all the tires I'm
>considering, and, even if I did have those numbers, they're tremendously
>dependent on the test conditions, the vehicle, the way it's driven, and
>even the weather that day.
>

Narrow down the number of tires you are considering. Look at the
specs and reviuews - make your short list - then investigate and
prove.

>What's funny is that you're actually saying the exact same thing I'm
>saying, which is that you buy by the numbers.

Not by the numbers you buy by - price and manufacturer rated numbers
(which you emphatically say are BS)

>
>The only difference is that you're intimating that you *have* far more
>numbers than I have (or anyone else has), and I'm asking you *where* you
>got them from.
>
>If "I" had those numbers, I'd buy by those numbers too.

No you wouldn't, because you would NEVER pay $236 for a tire - I can
almost guarantee that!!!

>
>But I don't think any consumer has those numbers for the dozen or two dozen
>tires he's comparing when he makes his buying decision.

Considering a dozen or too tires is totally a fools errand.

>
>> THAT is the
>> kind of information I use to chose tires - and why I spent the money
>> for the Haks for the ranger. An unloaded pickup with limited slip
>> needes all the help it can get when the roads get slick
>
>Again, you and I are essentially saying the same thing, which is that we
>buy tires by the performance metric numbers.
>
>The only difference is that you're intimating you have a super secret stash
>of these performance numbers, and I'm asking you where you get them from.
>
>Because if I had those numbers, I'd buy by those numbers too.
>
>> Your degrees don't meen squat - nor does your IQ. Nor does mine.
>
>Actually, they do mean a lot. And so does yours.
>
>A college degree, and especially higher level degrees *proves* that a
>person can do a shitload of things that are complex, and which takes months
>(at the very least) and years (in general) to accomplish, and, that they
>can do those complex tasks well enough that about 30 to 40 different
>professors (some of whom are assholes) have given them high enough marks to
>pass (and preferably better than that).

And i've run across very "educated" engineers who couldn't
troubleshoot their way out of a wet paper bag if it was open at both
ends.

>
>A guy who can't even garner a GED might be just as capable, but there's no
>proof of that.
>

And a PHD in abnormal basket weaving doesn't make him any smarter
than the guy who got his "degree" at the shool of hard knocks. You
just THINK you are smarter.

>Just like a tire might be capable of garnering 0.90Gs but without a
>reliable test report backing it up, there's no proof of that.
>
>> You get answers. You just don't accept them. I've answered just about
>> every (technical) question you asked and you've blown me off.
>
>I disagree but that one is in the eye of the beholder.
>
>For example, you suggested a $500 tire mounting machine, but the
>manufacturer warns that it shouldn't be used for passenger tires. Then you
>suggested shoring it up (which is fine) but how is that any different than
>shoring up the one I already have (which is intended for passenger tires).
>
>So, we simply have a different attitude but that doesn't mean I blew you
>off.
>
>> Rou have been EXTREMELY disrespectful to the guys here that know
>> things and would try to help you. You piss them off, you pay the
>> price.
>
>Actually, there were only about three or four people who tried to help.
>The rest just trolled.

And again, that can be perception. -on both sides

[trader_4]

Wow, looks like Clarabell has found another friend!

[trader_4]

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 12:20:59 AM UTC-5, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

>
> There will always be someone who will sell at a lower price
> >

Following that to it's logical conclusion, tires would be selling for 1 cent.

[Tekkie®]

Frank Baron posted for all of us...


>
> On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 20:09:56 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:
>
> > Move the breaker shoe part in to the first hole on the handle so
> > the shoe pushes out and down when you lean on the handle - as shown in
> > the 'tubes I referenced. The inner part of the rim needs to be against
> > the stop on the foot of the changer.
>
> Oh. I didn't even realize, until you mentioned that, that there are holes
> in the handle where we can move the breaker shovel further to the center of
> the wheel or further away from the center of the wheel.
>
> Too bad, because I don't have the SUV (I only have one spare tire right
> now) as I'm doing this for a relative.
>
> Last night, I destroyed the tire changer bead-breaking arm:
> http://i.cubeupload.com/LqS6N4.jpg
>
> It bent like it was made out of butter.
>
> I may have to head back to Harbor Freight for this one:
> http://i.cubeupload.com/ics54M.jpg

You get what you pay for troll. Still stumped by the valve stem?

--
Tekkie

[Tekkie®]

Frank Baron posted for all of us...

Nothing of value as he is a troll. Look up valve stem *NUT*


--
Tekkie

[Tekkie®]

cl...@snyder.on.ca posted for all of us...

Read Clares stuff and ignore the trolls idiocy.

Oh yeah I forgot this trolls alignment crap. Sorry...

--
Tekkie

[Vic Smith]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 06:47:31 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
<frank...@example.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:12:26 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:
>
>> You don't have a CLUE how I buy my tires or what "thought" goes into
>> them - and I most certainly would NOT buy tires based primarily on
>> price.
>
>Buying tires is both easy and hard, depending on what criteria you use.
>
>If you read the reviews, you'll go nuts, because they're extremely
>inconsistent, and most are from buttmeters which haven't been calibrated
>and all suffer from the placebo effect. So reviews are absolutely useless
>because only 1 in 100 will be accurate.
>

Tire reviews are especially problematic, since besides the buttmeter
you've got variables like car, load weight, driving style, etc.
I got lucky once where a guy with the same car as mine did a good,
thorough review on TireRack. I got the same tires at Just Tires and
was completely satisfied.
But every time I've looked there since I've come up empty. I'll still
go there first when I need new tires.

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:27:04 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

> But it might take 6 ounces to balance, or go down the road like a 3
> legged dog, or just plain be a really SHITTY set of $69 tires - - -

C'mon Clare.

Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing like in that Monty Python
skit where people buy arguments.

I bought the Nexen NPriz AH5 P225/75R15 102S tires online.
If I bought them from *any* online shop, they'd be the same tires.
If I bought them at any local shop, they'd *still* be the same tires.
If I paid $500 per tire or if I paid $65 per tire, they'd be the same
tires.

You call them shitty, and you're welcome to do so, but every time I ask you
to back up your statements, you come up flat.

For example, I told you in detail exactly how I buy tires, which is by the
specs printed on the sidewall of every passenger tire sold in the USA.

You tell me you have a *better* method of buying tires, which, you say is
that you have the super secret manufacturers' test results.

Fine. I'd love to have them.
Where are those super secret manufacturers' test results for the tires
above?

Where are those super secret manufacturers' test results for YOUR tires?

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 06:35:09 -0800 (PST), trader_4 advised:

> Wow, looks like Clarabell has found another friend!

The one thing I am is a diligent studious Usenet poster in that I summarize
what I've learned so that everyone benefits from the effort.

For example, the Harbor Freight tool, as Clare said, is a POS, but, with a
bit of foresight, you can shore up its weak points.

1. If you're changing standard passenger car tires, it works fine.
2. If you're changing SUV tires, the bead breaker will bend.
3. So what you do is shore it up ahead of time
a. You replace the clevis pins (thanks Clare!) with bolts to reduce slop
b. You stiffen the bead breaker arms
c. You use a pipe instead of the red tire iron for breaking bead leverage
d. You bolt the sucker down as firmly as you can

This is the kind of information I wish the first response to this thread
had. It took a couple of days, but, as a team, what we've done is solve the
problems so that the next person with the same task starts where we left
off.

That's how Usenet is supposed to work.

[Frank Baron]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 09:07:02 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca advised:

>>Again. You got something better than the specs?

> I believe the scientifically done tire tests - nothing less than
> double blind, with 3 or more testers on both sets of tires.

Hi Clare,

You can I both would have no problem choosing tires by the spec is we
actually had those tests in hand, but without those tests in your hand for
every tire (of the dozens you're looking at), how are you going to choose
between them?

> Warranty is only a very small indicator of quality -in that if they
> were really shitty tires they could not afford to warrantee them.

We're not disagreeing.
I use warrantee only when everything else is equal.

Then, heck, if one guy has a 50K mile warranty and the other has a 75K mile
warranty, and everything else is equal, sure, I'll go with the longer
warranty. Why not?

But warranty plays no role when other factors are far more important.

> Also "all tires sold in the US are safe" - - Nope. Remember Firestone
> 721s?? There were quite a few really dangerous tires sold in the USA.

C'mon. Let's not go off on witch hunts here.

I think you completely missed the point if you pick the Firestone or
Uniroyal debacles as an indication that tires sold in the US are NOT safe.

It's a fact that tires are safe no matter which ones you buy just as it's a
fact that the Tylenol you get from the drug store doesn't have cyanide in
it.

Sure, once in a while there is a disaster, but there is no buying habit you
can outline that is defensible in this case. What are you gonna do to
mitigate the chance of another Uniroyal/Firestone debacle?

The answer is nothing.
So it serves no purpose for you to bring in the Firestone/Uniroyal outlier.

You may as well say airline travel is unsafe the moment a single airline
crashes, so never fly because flying is unsafe.

>>What does anyone have for choosing tires that is better than the specs?
> REAL test data.

C'mon Clare. Let's be serious. I'm not a fool.
Your sophistic response works for most people on Usenet because most people
are fools.

But it doesn't work with me.
You justified absolutely nothing of what you said.
I justified everything.

I buy by the specs printed on the sidewall (and I explained them).

You said you buy tires using better criteria than I do.
Fine.

I ask you the criteria.
You say "real test data".

Fine. I'd love to have real test data for the dozen (or so) tires I look at
but my point was that nobody has this real test data (not consumers
anyway).

You say you have this real test data for the tires you buy.
Fine.
Where is it?

Specifically, where do we get those manufacture test specs for the tires in
question? ( Nexen NPriz AH5 P225/75R15 102S Pattern Code AH5 )

> You do get to determine what you are willing to pay, and to decide
> what constitutes VALUE for you

C'mon Clare. You don't get the object you want unless you pay the price
that someone else is willing to pay.
That is, YOU don't set the price.
The price is set by all the other people who want the same thing you want.

You think YOU set the price.
You don't.

You can disagree with me, but it's impossible for you to *set* the price of
what constitutes vale to you (if you want the object).

Sure, you can NOT buy the object.
But that just proves my point even more.

Take for example a typical California home in Palo Alto.
What's the price?
About 2 million bucks.
For 2000 square feet and a postage-stamp lawn.

Now, you come along, and you *want* a house in Palo Alto.
What are you willing to pay?

Oh, you're only willing to pay $500K?
Guess what?

You don't get that house.

If you don't want to understand what I just wrote, then that's fine.

But for you to blindly ignore thousands of years of basic economic theory
means that we will just have to disagree with each other.

Sure, you can decide it isn't worth 2 million bucks.
But then you don't get that house.

So, you *still* don't set the price of the house because *plenty* of other
people are willing to pay 2 million for that house that you're not willing
to pay 500K for. And they live in that house. While you don't.

Anyway, this is so basic that I can't believe we're discussing it.
Suffice to say you are welcome to disagree and I think that you missed a
few economics courses in college.

>>What I mean by that is that you don't pay the price that you are willing to
>>pay so much as you pay the price that everyone else is willing to pay.
>
> Nope. If I'm not willing to pay the price, I don't buy. Totally my
> choice.

You completely missed the entire point.

If you *wanted* the object, but if you're not willing to pay the price that
everyone else is willing to pay, *they* get the object, and you don't.

They set the price. Not you.
This is such a basic part of economic theory that I can't believe we're
even discussing it.

So, you're willing to disagree; but you have to come up with a tenable
argument where you actually *get* the object you want for the price you
want.

> No, but you might buy it for $450 in 3 months when the next "fruit of
> the day" is released. Being an "earlt adopter" is being a "pioneer" -
> defined as the guy laying on his belly in the dust with an arrow in
> his back - - - Also known as "bleeding edge"

C'mon Clare. You changed the goal posts. Sure, if you want an iPhone 1 (do
they even exist?) you can get it cheaper now than it was on the day it was
first sold - but the example I gave was a specific object at a specific
time.

It's basic economic theory that market timing is *part* of the product.