Armstrong Ultra SX 90 Furnace Question
tamboril
of the time now the exhaust motor starts up and runs for a long time, but
the burner doesn't start. Then a few minutes later, it all comes on like
normal. Sometimes the burner does start up, then stops, then the blower
comes on for a short time.
It seems to hold the house at temp, but I don't think it acted like this
last year, and I'm a little worried.
I just replace the digital thermostat with a brand new one, but it didn't
help.
One other thing: when it was having troubles once, I cranked the thermostat
setting way up to try to force it to light. It didn't make any difference.
The exhaust motor kept running, but nothing else.
Any ideas?
Noon-Air
sensor, bad proving switch, stopped up drain, ignitor going bad, etc.....but
not actually being able to *see* and lay hands on it, the best I can
recommend is to call a local, competent, licensed, professionally trained
HVAC tech to diagnose and correct the problem.
--
Steve @ Noon-Air Heating and A/C
Noon...@comcast.net
Top quality service & Top quality equipment
Noon-Air Heating & Air Conditioning Svc
PO Box 343
Purvis MS 39475
"tamboril" <tamb...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:Z98Q9.507366$%m4.1...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
CBHvac
"tamboril" <tamb...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:Z98Q9.507366$%m4.1...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
Here is one...
A thermostat is nothing..NOTHING, but an overglorified on/off
switch...cranking it one way or the other...DOES NOTHING...unless its a two
stage stat...then, all it does is cut the 2nd stage heat on....and that
Armstrong...its not...
>
>
tamboril
"Noon-Air" <noon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:t9-dnYKSIOb...@comcast.com...
> It could be any number of problems.....control board going bad, flame
> sensor, bad proving switch, stopped up drain, ignitor going bad,
etc.....but
> not actually being able to *see* and lay hands on it, the best I can
> recommend is to call a local, competent, licensed, professionally trained
> HVAC tech to diagnose and correct the problem.
OK. But I'd like to save a lot of money and do it myself. I have some
competency with electrical stuff. How would a real HVAC tech go about
checking the control board and igniter. And what is a proving switch?
Bubba
wrote:
Silly. Its not the thermostat. You should have replaced the breaker.
Gosh, dont you know nothin?
Bubba (sorry, but Im just always amazed at the self diagnostic types)
Noon-Air
>
> "Noon-Air" <noon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:t9-dnYKSIOb...@comcast.com...
> > It could be any number of problems.....control board going bad, flame
> > sensor, bad proving switch, stopped up drain, ignitor going bad,
> etc.....but
> > not actually being able to *see* and lay hands on it, the best I can
> > recommend is to call a local, competent, licensed, professionally
trained
> > HVAC tech to diagnose and correct the problem.
>
> OK. But I'd like to save a lot of money and do it myself. I have some
> competency with electrical stuff. How would a real HVAC tech go about
> checking the control board and igniter. And what is a proving switch?
The point is that you can change parts all day long and you *might* stumble
on the right one and the rest of the electrical parts you purchased are
NON-returnable....You have just cost yourself a bunch of money as these
parts are not cheap. plus think about the gas you spend chasing down the
parts.... then don't forget your time... how much is your time worth?? Then
there is this little matter of a warrenty... if you screw up, you have no
recourse. Now... tell me where you have saved anything by attempting to
repair it yourself
profft
"Noon-Air" <noon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:t9-dnYKSIOb...@comcast.com...
tamboril
> Silly. Its not the thermostat. You should have replaced the breaker.
> Gosh, dont you know nothin?
> Bubba (sorry, but Im just always amazed at the self diagnostic types)
My thinking was this: If the heater was "almost" starting, and just
sometimes, but generally keeping the house at temp, it was acting exactly
like it would act if someone were adjusting the thermostat back and forth
around a setpoint, or if someone were adjusting the temperature at the
thermostat with a hair dryer and ice. It seemed logical to me that if, say,
the solid-state sensor in the thermostat were becoming erratic, that it
could elicit this behavior from the furnace. Besides, I wanted one with
more flexible timers; so it wasn't a waste of money.
So it wasn't based on a complete misunderstanding of the relationship of the
thermostat to the furnace.
tamboril
> > competency with electrical stuff. How would a real HVAC tech go about
> > checking the control board and igniter. And what is a proving switch?
>
> The point is that you can change parts all day long and you *might*
stumble
> on the right one and the rest of the electrical parts you purchased are
> NON-returnable....You have just cost yourself a bunch of money as these
> parts are not cheap. plus think about the gas you spend chasing down the
> parts.... then don't forget your time... how much is your time worth??
Then
> there is this little matter of a warrenty... if you screw up, you have no
> recourse. Now... tell me where you have saved anything by attempting to
> repair it yourself
I totally understand your position, but I've seen too many incompetent
technicians do exactly as you mention: swap out parts until it fixes it. I
believe I might could make some headway on this if someone would answer my
questions, above. I was looking for something like, "oh, you can check the
igniter by disconnecting its wires, turning the unit "on" and applying 24V
from the transformer directly to the terminals...etc.".
Bubba
wrote:
>Put me down for $5 on a stopped up trap
I think "tamboril" put his $5+ DOWN the trap. :)
Bubba
E. Lakia
Amana, I have to clean the flame sensor each
year (wipe with dollar bill or very fine emery
cloth).
Second, which may be more like your problem,
Crud gets into the drain line from the combustion
fan. Then the tube and the bottom of the
combustion fan fill with water. Anyway, I blow
it out every September.
I also found that the stack thermostat had to
replaced one time.
Don Ocean
"E. Lakia" wrote:
> I found that with my high efficiency furnace,
> Amana, I have to clean the flame sensor each
> year (wipe with dollar bill or very fine emery
> cloth).
a bit of toluene on a rag works well...Wear a glove
and don't breath it...Stays clean a very long time
and doesn't damage coating.
tamboril
clean it. I *did* find two things that were full of water. The first was a
rubber cap on the trap part of the pipe coming from the roof (combustion
air?). It has a drain hose, a little ways up from the cap, that goes down
to another device that has another rubber cap on it. Then the hose goes
into the combustion fan assembly (I can't imagine why, but it does). That
rubber cap was full, too. It didn't immediately fix the problem (maybe some
sort of water sensor had to dry out), but I think it's a lot better today.
It's still acting a little weird. Once, the flame cut off in mid-cycle,
then came back on with a really loud BANG!. I don't know what the hell that
was, but it did that about five times last season, too. Scares the shit of
me if I'm asleep (the first time, I went up there with a baseball bat!).
"Don Ocean" <oc...@amerion.com> wrote in message
news:3E133882...@amerion.com...
Noon-Air
professionally trained HVAC technician....*ANY* time a gas appliance goes
"BANG" (even 1 time, but sometimes thats all it takes) you have a
potentially dangerous problem!!!
CBHvac
> Hey, thanks for the suggestions. I'll try to find the flame sensor and
> clean it. I *did* find two things that were full of water. The first was
a
> rubber cap on the trap part of the pipe coming from the roof (combustion
> air?). It has a drain hose, a little ways up from the cap, that goes down
> to another device that has another rubber cap on it. Then the hose goes
> into the combustion fan assembly (I can't imagine why, but it does). That
> rubber cap was full, too. It didn't immediately fix the problem (maybe
some
> sort of water sensor had to dry out), but I think it's a lot better today.
>
> It's still acting a little weird. Once, the flame cut off in mid-cycle,
> then came back on with a really loud BANG!. I don't know what the hell
that
> was, but it did that about five times last season, too. Scares the shit
of
> me if I'm asleep (the first time, I went up there with a baseball bat!).
Dunno who is gonna beat me to this, but stop, and dont touch the thing till
you can get a tech out to look at the unit. Bang is bad....
Bill
<webm...@removethis.carolinabreezehvac.com> wrote:
> "tamboril" <tamb...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:aEKQ9.523442$WL3.138090@rwcrnsc54...
> > Hey, thanks for the suggestions. I'll try to find the flame sensor and
> > clean it. I *did* find two things that were full of water. The first was
> a
> > rubber cap on the trap part of the pipe coming from the roof (combustion
> > air?). It has a drain hose, a little ways up from the cap, that goes down
> > to another device that has another rubber cap on it. Then the hose goes
> > into the combustion fan assembly (I can't imagine why, but it does). That
> > rubber cap was full, too. It didn't immediately fix the problem (maybe
> some
> > sort of water sensor had to dry out), but I think it's a lot better today.
> >
> > It's still acting a little weird. Once, the flame cut off in mid-cycle,
> > then came back on with a really loud BANG!. I don't know what the hell
> that
> > was, but it did that about five times last season, too. Scares the shit
> of
> > me if I'm asleep (the first time, I went up there with a baseball bat!).
>
> Dunno who is gonna beat me to this, but stop, and dont touch the thing till
> you can get a tech out to look at the unit. Bang is bad....
I think he'll wait till boom. He won't need a tech then.
--
Gary
> "Noon-Air" <noon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:t9-dnYKSIOb...@comcast.com...
>
>>It could be any number of problems.....control board going bad, flame
>>sensor, bad proving switch, stopped up drain, ignitor going bad,
>
> etc.....but
>
>>not actually being able to *see* and lay hands on it, the best I can
>>recommend is to call a local, competent, licensed, professionally trained
>>HVAC tech to diagnose and correct the problem.
>
>
> OK. But I'd like to save a lot of money and do it myself.
> I have some competency with electrical stuff.
When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a
nail... There's a good chance it isn't even an electrical problem.
I have some competency with electrical stuff too (I have a Master's
degree in Electrical Engineering), but I still won't try to fix things I
don't understand, especially things that could be dangerous, like my
heating system.
I do my own repairs sometimes, but only when I feel comfortable that I
know what I'm doing, and my heating system isn't something I want to
experiment with, at least not the burner or safety controls.
I have done some things to my heating system, but always call the pros
for things I don't understand, like cleaning/tuneup and pretty much
anything to do with the burner (but that said, I did correctly diagnose
a problem with it not igniting once, before calling for service I gave
it a quick look-over, and (thanks to one of my pet peeves with service
techs - they always take the screws out of things and don't put them
back - my burner's ignition transformer is missing the screw that holds
it in the closed position) I flipped up the ignition transformer to see
if anything looked out of place, and found paint was peeling from the
bottom of the transformer and laying against a high voltage terminal.
Since the transformer simply hinges up (and I had shut the power off), I
felt comfortable going this far, but no more (I would NOT have tried to
remove the burner nozzle or anything like that). I removed the loose
paint, thinking it might have enough conductivity to short out the
ignition, cleaned up the terminals, closed it up and pushed reset, and
it's been fine ever since. But if I hadn't figured it out right away, I
wouldn't have tried to keep running it with intermittent ignition, I
would have called in someone qualified. But I can see where you're
coming from, I bet if I called someone they would have done more than
just remove the peeling paint.
> How would a real HVAC tech go about checking the control board and
> igniter. And what is a proving switch?
It's the thingamajig that connects to the doohickey. It makes sense to
save money and do things yourself when you know what you're doing or at
least are doing something that you can't hurt yourself on, but it also
pays to know when to pay to get it done right. It's obvious you're in
way over your head on this one.
tamboril
won't, because, unlike many others in this thread, I want to actually give
you the information you need to solve the problem yourself.
Before I forget, here's some stuff for search engines: Armstrong Air Ultra
SX 90 GCK075D14-3A
> I do my own repairs sometimes, but only when I feel comfortable that I
> know what I'm doing, and my heating system isn't something I want to
> experiment with, at least not the burner or safety controls.
I see your point. I finally called a tech. There was some good and bad
about the experience (more good than bad).
The good: (1) the furnace is fixed without too much expense; (2) I learned
how to fix similar problems myself next time
The bad: (1) He made sure to stay and BS with me just long enough to go over
1/2 hour so he could charge me $90 instead of $45. (2) I could have done
the stuff he did had someone just responded with helpful repair tips right
here (thanks to those who mentioned cleaning the flame sensor).
Information wants to be free; so here is what I learned (and paid for) for
posterity and future google-groups searchers:
If your high-efficiency furnace does not light sometimes, or if it lights
poorly (with a bang!), or the flame goes off in mid-cycle, it could be a
number of things or a combination of things. One of the things it could be
is a loose hose that goes from the combustion fan to the "proving switch" to
detect suction (I believe this is all it was in my case, because the igniter
didn't even *try* to light most times). Another thing it could be is that
the tube and orifice on the instant-light pilot thing needs cleaning.
Another thing is that the funnel-looking things that the fire comes out of
need cleaning.
Turn off the main switch and the main gas valve and remove the assembly that
holds the pilot/flame detector up near the burners. Unscrew the nut holding
the pilot gas tube to the SmartValve. Blow out the tube and clean out the
orifice with a thin wire. Examine the pilot assy for deposits. Clean it
off (I didn't see how he did this; I was downstairs, but toulene and dollar
bills have been suggested elsewhere in this thread), and put it back
together. Be careful with this thing, because the flame sensor is
supposedly really expensive (USD 250)
Now remove the funnel-looking things that the fire normally blasts out of.
They're just held on with sheet-metal screws. Blow them out backwards from
the way the gas usually goes through them. Use a thick piece of paper to
clean the narrow, linear gaps that extend sideways from the round opening at
the hot end. These gaps spread the flame from one thingy to the neighboring
thingy. Once these are cleaned out totally, replace them, being careful to
get the spaces between them all equal (no metal-to-metal contact between
adjacent thingys).
Next check for water in the rubber endcaps on the air intake pipe coming
from the outside, if you have them. Empty out any water and replace the
endcaps.
Turn the thermo up to 85 and turn on the gas, then the power switch or
breaker. You have to put the cover back on or hold down the safety switch
if you want to watch.
This isn't rocket science, but there are definitely some things I wouldn't
have known to check (no thanks to most of the posters here). It's really
easy to do all this stuff first, before calling anyone and paying 90 bucks,
and I don't think it's dangerous if you have common sense (turn off the
power and gas).
> > How would a real HVAC tech go about checking the control board and
> > igniter. And what is a proving switch?
>
> It's the thingamajig that connects to the doohickey. It makes sense to
> save money and do things yourself when you know what you're doing or at
> least are doing something that you can't hurt yourself on, but it also
> pays to know when to pay to get it done right. It's obvious you're in
> way over your head on this one.
Yeah, that's kind of why I was asking questions of the group before
proceeding, hoping someone would just answer the darn questions.
So, by the way, my tech didn't check the igniter other than to see if
everything worked after he put it all back together (it didn't exhibit the
problem in front of him, of course); so I still don't know how to diagnose
it standalone.
And a proving switch? It's the flat, metal can that the hose from the small
combustion fan goes to. It has wires attached, and if you remove one of the
wires, it acts like it does when it detects that there is no suction. So if
it has the same behavior with the wire attached or detached, there may be a
problem with this switch, the hose connected to it, or the hose's
connections to the switch or the fan turbine.
enjoy, and DIY
jh
Noon-Air
>
> If your high-efficiency furnace does not light sometimes, or if it lights
> poorly (with a bang!), or the flame goes off in mid-cycle, it could be a
> number of things or a combination of things. One of the things it could
be
> is a loose hose that goes from the combustion fan to the "proving switch"
to
> detect suction (I believe this is all it was in my case, because the
igniter
> didn't even *try* to light most times). Another thing it could be is that
> the tube and orifice on the instant-light pilot thing needs cleaning.
> Another thing is that the funnel-looking things that the fire comes out of
> need cleaning.
>
*any* of the multiple problems you had could have been diagnosed without
actually *seeing* and "laying hands on" the furnace. A couple of the
problems that were found WERE sugested in one of my earlier posts as
possible causes of your furnace malfunction.
Now, do you see and understand why you were told to call a tech??
So it cost you $90.....big deal...you have heat and its not gonna blow up in
your face.
Now that its all over an done with, how many hours did *YOU* have invested
in screwing with your furnace (including posting on here and arguing with
*real* techs/professionals?? My time is worth $60/hr.....How much is YOUR
time worth?? How much would you have saved by simply making a phone call to
the tech in the first place??
--
Steve @ Noon-Air Heating and A/C
Noon...@comcast.net
Top quality service & Top quality equipment
To give real service you must add something
which cannot be bought or measured with money,
and that is sincerity and integrity.
- Donald A. Adams
Scott McDaniel
"tamboril" <tamb...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:MuCR9.439748$GR5.1...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
CBHvac
LOVE what he called the burner assembly.....
Hey...I got a question for the newfound Rocket Scientist.....what if you
have an older Chrysler, and it wont fire?
Better yet...what if you have a new Rheem/Ruud and the doohickie burner
thingies are rusty?
How about if you blow into ANY inducer fan motor proving switch? Well.....?
You got your $90 worth, so dont bitch...
You got a deal too...be glad there was no training charges with that.
"Scott McDaniel" <scott@NO___Spam--thedatabaseplace.net> wrote in message
news:R62cndNxd7m...@comcast.com...
Gary
>
> You got a deal too...be glad there was no training charges with that.
>
If he really wants to know how things work, my local college has a
couple of courses:
HVAC Technician - Job Preparation: 250 Hours, $2275
Oil Heat Technician: 240 Hours, $2150
Each equals about 6 weeks full time (40 hours a week of classes).
I think this shows why nobody just posts a description of how it works
so he can fix it himself, it's not a simple subject, but now that he's
learned how to make one repair I think he now assumes he knows it all.
janosa...@gmail.com
Stormin Mormon
> On Monday, December 30, 2002 10:28:58 PM UTC-5, tamboril wrote:
>>
>
> erre
>
Post from 2002. Think they have the
same furnace from 12 years ago?
-
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
Tony Hwang
Please, please, please, don't blame thermostat for furnace problem.
Very rarely thermostat is at fault. If your furnace is acting up, you
can read diagnostic code which will point where the problem may be.
Maybe your draft motor pressure sensor hose is plugging up with dirt?
Furnace works on logical sequence, one step at a time. Probably you have
owner's manual or quick trouble-shooting chart on the bottom access
panel. Any annual check up or maintenance done on the unit?
philo
> On Monday, December 30, 2002 10:28:58 PM UTC-5, tamboril wrote:
>
Tony Hwang
philo
post.
Most of those replying to ten year old posts...come from Google Groups.
Qwerty Uiop
Stormin Mormon
this list?
--
Stormin Mormon
>>> LOOK AT THE DATE YOU FOOL
>>>
>> Some people don't bother setting time or their PC BIOS battery is gone.
>
> Does not make a difference, the news server puts the correct date on the
> post.
>
> Most of those replying to ten year old posts...come from Google Groups.
>