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Screws are NOT made for Structural Construction
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man...@toolshed.com
Jul 25, 2013, 7:08:21 AM7/25/13
to
Years ago, I build a large wall out of 2x4s and fastened them together
with those black drywall screws. (About 3 inch long). I built it on the
ground, and when it was complete, I began to lift it into place, like I
had always dont with walls that I formerly put together with nails.
Well, when lifting the wall, it flexed, and seconds later I had a pile
of 2x4s laying all around me and several that were resting on top of my
body. I quickly learned (the hard way), that those screws are NOT made
for Structural Construction. They are very brittle and break as soon as
they are stressed (such as lifting the wall in place).
After cussing a lot, I had to rebuild that entire wall, using nails. I
have stuck with nails ever since. Over the years I've been reminded
about NOT using those black screws for Structural Construction, while
having to repair things built by other people who used them. In fact I
bought a shed that was for sale and needed to be moved. I was preparing
to move the shed, jacking it up, when the shed walls began coming off
the shed floor. Sure enough, the builder had used those damn screws to
attach the walls to the floor. We had to add lots of nails before
moving the shed, or it would have been in pieces real soon.
Anyhow, recently my neighbor built a fairly large canopy to put over his
door, and prebuilt the whole thing on the ground, complete with steel
roofing. He got it done, and found it was too heavy for two men to lift
above his door. So, he came to me, knowing I have a tractor with a
loader. I took the tractor and lifted it above his door. He shot
several of those gold colored deck screws into the house, and propped
some 2x4's under it until the permanent posts could be placed. I
lowered the tractor loader about 6 inches as the guys tried to raise the
front edge of that canopy with the prop 2x4s because the front was too
low.
It was fortunate I had not removed the tractor loader, or someone could
have been hurt, not to mention damage to the canopy, because it fell
right off the house wall. The cause was those deck screws snapped.
I was a little surprised myself. I thought deck screws were stronger
than those black drywall screws. I guess I was wrong. While they
probably are somewhat stronger, they are still brittle and they will
break.
We got it back in place, but used 16D common nails the next time and
everything worked perfectly. After that incident, I've pretty much come
to the conclusion that Screws are NOT made for Structural Construction.
None of them. Nails may bend, but still hold the boards together. But
screws break, and when they break, the boards do not stay together. In
fact, they're dangerous.
Unless they make a screw specifically for structural construction,
(which I am not aware of), I dont recommend using screws for any
structural construction at all. Stick with nails.
with those black drywall screws. (About 3 inch long). I built it on the
ground, and when it was complete, I began to lift it into place, like I
had always dont with walls that I formerly put together with nails.
Well, when lifting the wall, it flexed, and seconds later I had a pile
of 2x4s laying all around me and several that were resting on top of my
body. I quickly learned (the hard way), that those screws are NOT made
for Structural Construction. They are very brittle and break as soon as
they are stressed (such as lifting the wall in place).
After cussing a lot, I had to rebuild that entire wall, using nails. I
have stuck with nails ever since. Over the years I've been reminded
about NOT using those black screws for Structural Construction, while
having to repair things built by other people who used them. In fact I
bought a shed that was for sale and needed to be moved. I was preparing
to move the shed, jacking it up, when the shed walls began coming off
the shed floor. Sure enough, the builder had used those damn screws to
attach the walls to the floor. We had to add lots of nails before
moving the shed, or it would have been in pieces real soon.
Anyhow, recently my neighbor built a fairly large canopy to put over his
door, and prebuilt the whole thing on the ground, complete with steel
roofing. He got it done, and found it was too heavy for two men to lift
above his door. So, he came to me, knowing I have a tractor with a
loader. I took the tractor and lifted it above his door. He shot
several of those gold colored deck screws into the house, and propped
some 2x4's under it until the permanent posts could be placed. I
lowered the tractor loader about 6 inches as the guys tried to raise the
front edge of that canopy with the prop 2x4s because the front was too
low.
It was fortunate I had not removed the tractor loader, or someone could
have been hurt, not to mention damage to the canopy, because it fell
right off the house wall. The cause was those deck screws snapped.
I was a little surprised myself. I thought deck screws were stronger
than those black drywall screws. I guess I was wrong. While they
probably are somewhat stronger, they are still brittle and they will
break.
We got it back in place, but used 16D common nails the next time and
everything worked perfectly. After that incident, I've pretty much come
to the conclusion that Screws are NOT made for Structural Construction.
None of them. Nails may bend, but still hold the boards together. But
screws break, and when they break, the boards do not stay together. In
fact, they're dangerous.
Unless they make a screw specifically for structural construction,
(which I am not aware of), I dont recommend using screws for any
structural construction at all. Stick with nails.
Nate Nagel
Jul 25, 2013, 8:48:08 AM7/25/13
to
Drywall screws are not right, as you found, they're not strong enough.
I'm surprised that deck screws didn't work for you, as I would expect
them to be very similar to framing screws but either with better
anti-rust coatings or (the very expensive ones) stainless.
With screws, however, you may have to predrill to prevent splitting.
This doesn't happen so much with nails. Nails are in fact tried and
true and work well. I'd expect proper framing screws to work better,
but still.
When shopping for framing screws make sure you specify that you're using
wood studs... "framing screws" can also refer to sheetmetal type screws
used to hold metal studs together in commercial construction.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
willshak
Jul 25, 2013, 9:19:30 AM7/25/13
to
decking to the deck joists so they don't move.
And deck screws can break or tear out if the decking twists enough.
>
> With screws, however, you may have to predrill to prevent splitting.
> This doesn't happen so much with nails. Nails are in fact tried and
> true and work well. I'd expect proper framing screws to work better,
> but still.
>
> When shopping for framing screws make sure you specify that you're using
> wood studs... "framing screws" can also refer to sheetmetal type screws
> used to hold metal studs together in commercial construction.
>
> nate
>
>
--
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @
notbob
Jul 25, 2013, 10:53:30 AM7/25/13
to
On 2013-07-25, man...@toolshed.com <man...@toolshed.com> wrote:
> Unless they make a screw specifically for structural construction,
> (which I am not aware of), I dont recommend using screws for any
> structural construction at all. Stick with nails.
Thanks for this valuble info. As a backyard handiman, I rebuilt the
> Unless they make a screw specifically for structural construction,
> (which I am not aware of), I dont recommend using screws for any
> structural construction at all. Stick with nails.
steps on my mom's deck. Seeing all the ppl using screws, I bought a
DeWalt and jumped in, using 3-1/2" deck screws, my 8 mos of framing
experience from 40 yrs before serving me fairly well. Discovered
early I needed to pre-drill, but still used deck screws to secure cut
strings to deck. When I replace the tread boards, I'll make sure I
re-enforce the deck screws with framing screws or 16Ds. I think I may
still have my late brother's framing gun. I know I have his framing
hammer and am not too old to swing it. Being basically a mechanical
type, I attached the baluster/spindles and handrail to strings using
3/8" SS nuts/bolts and fender washers. I know those will hold. ;)
nb
Bob F
Jul 25, 2013, 10:55:25 AM7/25/13
to
not among them. The are made or hard brittle metal to resist the force of
screwing them in, and are too thin to have any real strength. They often break
just screwing them in or out. Look at the thickness of the screw center shaft,
ignoring the threads. There's almost nothing there. Try bending them and see
what happens.
Country Carpenter
Jul 25, 2013, 10:57:56 AM7/25/13
to
Violently overthrow the US government
notbob
Jul 25, 2013, 11:00:39 AM7/25/13
to
OK, I've found structural wood screws, but haven't a clue what "DAGS"
means. Explain, please. TIA
nb
means. Explain, please. TIA
nb
Harry K
Jul 25, 2013, 11:28:55 AM7/25/13
to
On Thursday, July 25, 2013 8:00:39 AM UTC-7, notbob wrote:
http://www.daggerz.com/daggerz/Technical_files/Daggerz%20MSDS.pdf
Daggers seems to be a manufacturer's name vice a type of screw though.
Harry K
> On 2013-07-25, Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>
>
> > they do, DAGS for framing screws.
>
>
>
> OK, I've found structural wood screws, but haven't a clue what "DAGS"
>
> means. Explain, please. TIA
>
>
>
> nb
Same here. Tried a google and only got this:
>
>
>
> > they do, DAGS for framing screws.
>
>
>
> OK, I've found structural wood screws, but haven't a clue what "DAGS"
>
> means. Explain, please. TIA
>
>
>
> nb
http://www.daggerz.com/daggerz/Technical_files/Daggerz%20MSDS.pdf
Daggers seems to be a manufacturer's name vice a type of screw though.
Harry K
recycl...@gmail.com
Jul 25, 2013, 11:41:00 AM7/25/13
to
You may have to alter the design
if you don’t want to alter your choice of screws or nails
but you can use any screw anywhere
as long as you have the experience and common sense
to know how a structure will behave.
Some mistakes people make with screws is that
they place a screw too close to the edge and
crack the wood, especially if they use old dry lumber and
don’t drill a hole first. Another mistake is that a screw
or a nail is not designed to hold up a structure
but to keep the structure that is doing the holding from
moving. In other words a screw or a nail should not be
relied on to hold up a weight but to keep the stud that
is holding the weight from moving.
ChairMan
Jul 25, 2013, 12:31:18 PM7/25/13
to
hth
notbob
Jul 25, 2013, 12:41:11 PM7/25/13
to
chaniarts
Jul 25, 2013, 12:44:24 PM7/25/13
to
notbob
Jul 25, 2013, 12:59:10 PM7/25/13
to
On 2013-07-25, chaniarts <chan...@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote:
> Do A Google Search
I'm not foolish enough to use google.
https://duckduckgo.com/
nb
> Do A Google Search
I'm not foolish enough to use google.
https://duckduckgo.com/
nb
ChairMan
Jul 25, 2013, 1:54:46 PM7/25/13
to
notbob
Jul 25, 2013, 2:46:20 PM7/25/13
to
On 2013-07-25, ChairMan <nos...@thanks.com> wrote:
> double WHOOSH
Three pages of google reveals zip about structural screws with DAGS
ref. What's that make you? A dbl douche?
nb
John G
Jul 25, 2013, 2:53:04 PM7/25/13
to
On Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:08:21 AM UTC-4, man...@toolshed.com wrote:
Dan Espen
Jul 25, 2013, 3:12:22 PM7/25/13
to
_D_o _A_ _G_oogle _S_earch.
The first letter of each word in the phrase
"Do A Google Search".
No, DAGS didn't ring a bell with me either,
but I did eventually get it.
--
Dan Espen
willshak
Jul 25, 2013, 4:38:25 PM7/25/13
to
D o
A
G oogle
S earch
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Jul 25, 2013, 5:15:16 PM7/25/13
to
have good holding power, but poor shear. Nails have good shear, but
plain nails hon't have much holding power, and there are (as far as I
know) no "ardox" or spiral nails for nail guns. My brother just put
up his new shop, and he screwed everything together for the initial
assembly (allowing him to remove and re-install if there was any
adjustment required) - then finished up with 3 1/2 inch nails in the
framing nailer ( not easy to find 3 1/2")
nestork
Jul 25, 2013, 4:51:25 PM7/25/13
to
People should be aware that drywall screws are classed as "low root"
screws.
The screw "root" is the diameter of solid steel at the center of the
screw once one eliminates the screw threads.
http://www.boltscience.com/images/screw3.gif
ALL screws that are meant to be driven into wood _without_predrilling_
will be low root screws. The requirement that the screw be driven into
wood without predrilling necessitates that the screw have a small root
diameter, but it also results in a screw that is physically weaker than
a regular wood screw, which is meant to be driven into predrilled
holes.
EVERY wood screw will hold better and be structurally stronger than a
nail. Nails hold by friction, whereas wood screws have root diameters
that are equal to or greater than those of nails, AND wood screws have
threads that grip the surrounding wood much better than a nail ever
could. Try pulling a screw out of wood with a claw hammer and you'll
learn that first hand.
The issue with the title of this thread is that it suggests that screws,
in general, don't work as well as nails, and that's just not true. If
you want a STRONG joint, just use a STRONG screw, like a wood screw or
sheet metal screw and predrill for the large root that screw will have.
If you're doing work outdoors, use stainless steel screws instead.
What we have here is a situation where someone is using drywall screws
in an application they were never intended for, and warning people away
from them because they don't perform to his expectations. Really, the
issue here should be to just use the right nail or screw for each job,
and you won't have problems with either. If the OP had used 3 inch wood
screws instead of 3" drywall screws, I'm sure his experience with them
would have been totally different.
--
nestork
notbob
Jul 25, 2013, 6:35:56 PM7/25/13
to
On 2013-07-25, Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote:
> At the risk that you still don't get it:
>
> _D_o _A_ _G_oogle _S_earch.
Hah!! Got it.
> At the risk that you still don't get it:
>
> _D_o _A_ _G_oogle _S_earch.
I no doubt missed it due to the fact I'm the founding --and most
likely only-- member of CRAP: Curmudgeons Resisting Acronym
Propagation. ;)
nb
Red Green
Jul 25, 2013, 7:41:47 PM7/25/13
to
"Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote in news:ksrdss$s96$1...@dont-email.me:
Try cutting one with a hack saw. Too hard=too brittle=to snap. They are
DRYWALL screws.
>> I dont recommend using screws for any
>> structural construction at all.
And if someone has their underlayment nails popping through the vinyl
because they didn't use ring shanks then that means all nails are no good
for anything?
And if someone has a bunch or drywall nail pops because regular nails
were were used vs drywall nails then the nails that were used are no good
for anything. [Yea I know. Who uses drywall nails any more?]
These nails & screws didn't get put in by themself. They were chosen and
put in by someone, a person, "who knew what they were doing".
DRYWALL screws.
>> I dont recommend using screws for any
>> structural construction at all.
because they didn't use ring shanks then that means all nails are no good
for anything?
And if someone has a bunch or drywall nail pops because regular nails
were were used vs drywall nails then the nails that were used are no good
for anything. [Yea I know. Who uses drywall nails any more?]
These nails & screws didn't get put in by themself. They were chosen and
put in by someone, a person, "who knew what they were doing".
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Jul 25, 2013, 8:43:53 PM7/25/13
to
manufactured in china of "mystery metal".
ChairMan
Jul 25, 2013, 8:54:09 PM7/25/13
to
for
As Dan pointed out......
At the risk that you still don't get it:
The first letter of each word in the phrase
"Do A Google Search".
No, DAGS didn't ring a bell with me either,
but I did eventually get it.
--
Harry K
Jul 25, 2013, 11:59:12 PM7/25/13
to
I did as I already posted. Nothing.
Why not just tell us what it is?
Harry K
Why not just tell us what it is?
Harry K
Harry K
Jul 26, 2013, 12:04:41 AM7/26/13
to
Harry K
man...@toolshed.com
Jul 29, 2013, 5:58:03 PM7/29/13
to
On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 16:38:25 -0400, willshak <will...@00hvc.rr.com>
wrote:
>notbob wrote:
>> On 2013-07-25, ChairMan <nos...@thanks.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Do A Google Search.......DAGS
>>
>> I did. nada....
>>
>
>DAGS means:
>
>D o
>A
>G oogle
>S earch
Jesus fucking christ, 15 posts about this shit. Plus Google sucks the
big one anyhow!
wrote:
>notbob wrote:
>> On 2013-07-25, ChairMan <nos...@thanks.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Do A Google Search.......DAGS
>>
>> I did. nada....
>>
>
>DAGS means:
>
>D o
>A
>G oogle
>S earch
big one anyhow!
jim winner
Jul 27, 2021, 10:27:05 AM7/27/21
to
On Monday, July 29, 2013 at 3:58:03 PM UTC-6, man... wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 16:38:25 -0400, willshak <will...>
> wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 16:38:25 -0400, willshak <will...>
> >notbob wrote:
> >> On 2013-07-25, ChairMan <nos...> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Do A Google Search.......DAGS
> >>
> >> I did. nada....
> >>
> >
> >DAGS means:
> >
> >D o
> >A
> >G oogle
> >S earch
> Jesus fucking christ, 15 posts about this shit. Plus Google sucks the
> big one anyhow!
The DAGS thread here is priceless!
> >>
> >>> Do A Google Search.......DAGS
> >>
> >> I did. nada....
> >>
> >
> >DAGS means:
> >
> >D o
> >A
> >G oogle
> >S earch
> Jesus fucking christ, 15 posts about this shit. Plus Google sucks the
> big one anyhow!
To be fair no one answered super clearly, I see how the confusion arose.
The original comment states "DAGS for framing screws" which means Do A Google Search for the term "Framing Screws"
I hope that offers some clarification 8 years after the fact.
So glad I came across this thread, which is both super helpful and hilarious!
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