one-wire pole transformers

[denni...@gmail.com]

I just noticed that all the residential transformers on the poles on
my street only have one wire feeding them. There are three wires on
top of the pole.

One wire in, and three wires out to the triplex feeding my house.
There are no other visible connections on the transformer.

Heck, the next street over only has ONE wire at the top of the pole...

I thought the three wires on the pole corresponded to each leg on my
breaker panel, and a ground wire.

How is the transformer creating two 110V legs and a ground from one
feed wire? This just goes against everything I learned in school about
electricity.

[George]

Think about it. Only one (of the two) wires feeding the primary of a
typical single phase distribution transformer needs to be insulated.

[bud--]

In the alley behind my house the poles have one high voltage wire
(8000V) and 3 low voltage wires (H-N-H). The low voltage H-H wires break
between transformers but the neutral is continuous. The high voltage
return must be on the secondary neutral.

--
bud--

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Feb 24, 10:28 am, George <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

The 3 wires you see running down the road on
poles are each one phase of a 3 phase distribution
system. They are 120deg out of phase with each
other. For larger industrial loads, like motors, they
use all 3 phases and step it down. For light loads, residential, they
use any one of the three phases
and run it into a center
tap transformer. The center tap becomes your
neutral and each of the ends becomes one of the
hots, giving you 240V between them, 120V between
each of them and neutral.

[denni...@gmail.com]

On Feb 24, 10:28 am, George <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> On 2/24/2012 10:14 AM, dennisga...@gmail.com wrote:
> > How is the transformer creating two 110V legs and a ground from one
> > feed wire? This just goes against everything I learned in school about
> > electricity.
>
> Think about it. Only one (of the two) wires feeding the primary of a
> typical single phase distribution transformer needs to be insulated.

The problem is, there is only ONE wire.

[Evan]

Read up more on transformers...

Residential power is typically single phase (although there are
some exceptions to this) with a center tapped secondary winding
on the transformer...

~~ Evan

[Bill]

<denni...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>
>The problem is, there is only ONE wire.
>

The 2nd wire is the neutral down below. Notice this will run from pole
to pole in-between where there are not 3 wires.

The following is not exactly your transformer, but same thing...

"If a primary neutral wire is available, a 'wye' or 'phase to neutral'
transformer can be used. This usually has only one bushing on top,
connected to one of the primary phases. The other end of the primary
winding is 'grounded' to the transformer's case, which is connected to
the neutral wire"...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_transformer

[denni...@gmail.com]

On Feb 24, 10:45 am, Evan <evan.news.re...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Read up more on transformers...
>
> Residential power is typically single phase (although there are
> some exceptions to this) with a center tapped secondary winding
> on the transformer...

The thing is, everything I know about electricity says that you need
TWO wires to make a complete circuit. AC or DC, doesn't matter.

Most streets have two overhead wires, with two wires going to the
transformer.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Feb 24, 10:31 am, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote:

I think the return path for the other side of the primary
transformer is the earth. Earth is used as a return in
many distribution systems and while it saves money,
it leads to some problems. I see what the OP and you
are talking about all over here in rural NJ. You have 3
wires on top of the poles, which are the 3 phases.
If you look at where you have houses, a single wire
leads from one of those to the transformer. I believe
the other side is connected to earth ground. That
arragement then serves a small group of houses. With a
larger commercial/industiral user you see 3 transfomers,
one connected to each of the 3 phases.

[SRN]

Google "Single-wire earth return" (SWER) for a diagram and explanation - as
others have said, it uses earth grounding for the return path.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return



<denni...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1acc107f-50f3-4bf6...@l16g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...

[Pete C.]

The norm is one to three phase conductors at the top of the pole or on
the cross arm at the top of the pole, with the neutral for those on the
pole a few feet down, and the low voltage secondaries if present a few
feet below that. The neutral is grounded at least every few poles with a
small uninsulated wire down the side of the pole that connects to a
plate at the bottom of the pole underground. The SWER or delta (two
phase conductors, no neutral) configurations are obsolete and only found
in areas with old infrastructure.

[harry]

The neutral and the ground may be one and the same.
Common thing is Australia for example. But only in rural areas.
So the "return" current goes through the ground.
A cheap system, not without it's dangers.

[The Daring Dufas]

Some years back, I called the power company when I noticed that the
metal thieves had cut and removed the copper ground/earth wires from
all the power poles up and down the streets in my area. The wire was
cut at the point as high as a man could reach. None of the power was
of the single high voltage hot wire types. If that had been the case,
there would have been a number of two legged crispy critters littering
the downtown landscape. ^_^

TDD

[Metspitzer]

http://imgur.com/gFrGB

I used 8000 for the primary from someone's earlier post. No clue what
it really is.

[Larry Fishel]

On Feb 24, 11:52 am, "SRN" <snewma...@cox.net> wrote:
> The thing is, everything I know about electricity says that you need
> TWO wires to make a complete circuit. AC or DC, doesn't matter.

For purposes of this discussion, you are correct. These IS another
wire somewhere. It may be running down the pole to the ground (using
the earth as most of the "wire") and may look like a steel support
cable...

[dpb]

In the US in a residential area, indeed.

In some (very) rural areas of Sask, CA, I saw one-line w/ earth return
as recently as roughly 20-yr ago yet...

--

[gregz]

I was looking outside one snowy day, and I saw a tree branch fall in my
front yard with the end on fire. The branch had hit the single top wire
connecting ground.

Greg

[Pete C.]

I believe 7,200V is about the lowest you will find anywhere and most are
13,200V or more.

[HeyBub]

tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> I think the return path for the other side of the primary
> transformer is the earth. Earth is used as a return in
> many distribution systems and while it saves money,
> it leads to some problems. I see what the OP and you
> are talking about all over here in rural NJ. You have 3
> wires on top of the poles, which are the 3 phases.
> If you look at where you have houses, a single wire
> leads from one of those to the transformer. I believe
> the other side is connected to earth ground. That
> arragement then serves a small group of houses. With a
> larger commercial/industiral user you see 3 transfomers,
> one connected to each of the 3 phases.

pic
http://thereifixedit.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/white-trash-repairs-what-i-grounded-it-to-earth.jpg

[gregz]

I was lying in bed one day watching guys adding a new transformer outside
the window. When trying to clip the wire onto the hv wire I saw a pretty
good arc. Probably at least 3 inches. A transformer feeding the house burnt
out, so they replaced that, and added another transformer in addition to
original. Result our house had less voltage fluctuations. When young, I
used to use the shortwave radio, and ever so often, maybe twice a ay, a
horrendous arching- buzzing sound would build up and quickly stop. Lasting
3-4 seconds. I never found the source of that. Didn't sound like anything
that would be consumer generated.

Greg

[The Daring Dufas]

On 2/24/2012 6:52 PM, gregz wrote:
> "Pete C."<aux3....@snet.net> wrote:
>> Metspitzer wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 08:30:26 -0800 (PST), denni...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Feb 24, 10:45 am, Evan<evan.news.re...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>> Read up more on transformers...
>>>>>
>>>>> Residential power is typically single phase (although there are
>>>>> some exceptions to this) with a center tapped secondary winding
>>>>> on the transformer...
>>>>
>>>> The thing is, everything I know about electricity says that you need
>>>> TWO wires to make a complete circuit. AC or DC, doesn't matter.
>>>>
>>>> Most streets have two overhead wires, with two wires going to the
>>>> transformer.
>>>

>>> http://imgur.com/gFrGBr

>>>
>>> I used 8000 for the primary from someone's earlier post. No clue what
>>> it really is.
>>
>> I believe 7,200V is about the lowest you will find anywhere and most are
>> 13,200V or more.
>
> I was lying in bed one day watching guys adding a new transformer outside
> the window. When trying to clip the wire onto the hv wire I saw a pretty
> good arc. Probably at least 3 inches. A transformer feeding the house burnt
> out, so they replaced that, and added another transformer in addition to
> original. Result our house had less voltage fluctuations. When young, I
> used to use the shortwave radio, and ever so often, maybe twice a ay, a
> horrendous arching- buzzing sound would build up and quickly stop. Lasting
> 3-4 seconds. I never found the source of that. Didn't sound like anything
> that would be consumer generated.
>
> Greg

It could have been a static discharge from your antenna if you had an
external antenna. Or it could have been a static electricity discharge
from another source, even atmospheric. Another source may have been
power company or an industrial site switching high voltage power at
certain times every day. I can remember listening to distant stations
on an AM radio in different bands and hearing a "zip..zip..zip" sound
at regular intervals.

TDD

[Tom Horne]

> I think the return path for the other side of the primary
> transformer is the earth.  Earth is used as a return in
> many distribution systems and while it saves money,
> it leads to some problems.  I see what the OP and you
> are talking about all over here in rural NJ.  You have 3
> wires on top of the poles, which are the 3 phases.
> If you look at where you have houses, a single wire
> leads from one of those to the transformer.  I believe
> the other side is connected to earth ground.  That
> arragement then serves a small group of houses. With a
> larger commercial/industiral user you see 3 transfomers,
> one connected to each of the 3 phases.

In most of North America we use a Multi Grounded Neutral (MGM). That
means that there is a neutral conductor that goes back to the source
transformer's neutral point that is grounded at multiple points along
it's route. Yes there are exceptions but they are not in common use.
The reason that system is used is because it saves a lot of money
while still providing reliable service. The neutral in most utility
distribution systems is common to both windings of the transformer.
It connects to the uninsulated stud on the transformers case which is
internally bonded to one end of the primary winding and the center of
the secondary winding. There is only one insulated connection to the
primary winding and that is the other end from the neutral
connection. The grounded stud on the case is connected to the neutral
and to ground. Since the current will flow in all pathways available
to it in proportion to the total impedance of the pathway some current
will flow via the earth on the order of a few amperes per grounding
electrode.

Here is where it gets confusing. The reason that all of those
currents do not add up to some phenomenal current flow through the
earth is that the flows from the three phases cancel each other out in
all of the common connections to the degree that the current being
drawn from the system is equal. If you ran impossibly long leads from
a three phase power analyzer what you would see across any three
consecutive transformers grounds would approach zero current. Since
no system is perfectly balanced across all three phases the current in
the neutral and the earth is never zero but if you check the current
flow in the source transformers neutral and it's grounding electrode
conductor back at the power substation you would find that it is
rather low.

So while it is true that in an MGM distribution system some of the
current is flowing through the earth the actual amperage doing that is
rather small. The earth carrying current seldom causes any problems
in systems that are maintained to the National Electrical Safety Code
standard. The biggest exception is in the animal husbandry industries
were the four footed critters that spend much of their day standing or
lying in their own rather conductive waste do often suffer ill effects
from event the small stray currents that are flowing across the
ground. When some defect in the distribution neutral raises that
current a little higher the animals suffer greatly and even die from
the effects. In dairy cows for instance it will cause a drastic
reduction in production and radical changes in the cows behavior and
temperament because the animals are in nearly constant pain.
Utilities in areas with large dairying industry. Have developed
transformers with high impedance connections to ground in order to
limit the stray current to levels that are imperceptible to the
livestock. One of the utilities in Wisconsin painted these special
transformers to look like the coloration of the locally dominant type
of dairy cow.

I hope that is helpful.

--
Tom Horne

[Metspitzer]

Wouldn't the situation where the primary is feed by a single conductor
have the same amperage returning through the earth as supplied by the
phase conductor? I wouldn't consider that "rather small"

[Pete C.]

Do you know what the currents are at primary voltages? Your 240V 100A
residential service is some 3.3A at the lowest 7,200V primary voltage
and something like 680mA at 35kV distribution, and that's only if it's
running at the full 100A load which it isn't ever supposed to do for
more than a few seconds.

[Pete C.]

HID Street light ballast igniters are known to produce a lot of RFI when
they come on at night, and if they have a bad lamp attached they cycle
endlessly producing interference. With the switch to LED street lights
and even parking lot lights that problem should gradually become a thing
of the past.

[Tom Horne]

No. Because the primary is supplied from two conductors. In a Multi
Grounded Neutral (MGM) distribution system there is a continuous
neutral conductor. It is the same neutral conductor that is part of
the low lines; that is the lines below the transformer; that supply
the individual premise wiring systems. That one conductor is serving
as the neutral for both the distribution system and the premises
wiring systems served by the transformers that are connected in
succession to each phase of the distribution. That uninsulated
conductor is grounded at intervals along it's route from the
substation transformer were the distribution current originated. In
normal operation it carries comparatively little current because of
the cancellation that occurs in the common connections. The only
current flowing on the neutral is the total difference between the
current flowing on the three phases. Not the sum mind you just the
difference. So if phase A is carrying one hundred, phase B one
hundred five, and phase C one hundred three amperes the maximum
current flowing in the neutral conductor at any given instant is five
amperes. The actual purpose that the neutral current serves is to
provide a larger number of common neutral connections in which the
currents from the three phases can cancel each other out. In any
portion of a three phase distribution system were all three phases are
not present the neutral will carry the same current as the highest
current on the one or two phases that are still present. It is only
in the three phase portion of the network that the current will cancel
out to a very small value. Once that portion of the system ties back
into the three phase portion of the network then the current averaged
from all such single phased stubs will again cancel out and the
neutral current will again be a rather small value.

--
Tom Horne

[Stormin Mormon]

I got to admit, there is clueless, and there is clueless. This was to the
extreme.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news:MsGdncazpcLhgdXS...@earthlink.com...

pic
http://thereifixedit.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/white-trash-repairs-what-i-grounded-it-to-earth.jpg

[hr(bob) hofmann@att.net]

> Tom Horne- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Tom is correct, we have had that sort of a system here in Illinois for
at least 50 years.

[The Daring Dufas]

A electrical engineer friend of mine was once the head of a power
company communications division and he told me that many complaints
of radio interference his department investigated turned out to be
caused by defective doorbell transformers.

TDD

[harry]

> Tom Horne- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

That is not true. The neutral current is the vector sum of the phase
currents, not the numerical difference.

[Red Green]

"HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in
news:MsGdncazpcLhgdXS...@earthlink.com:

Thaks for that safety tip. I need to upgrade to the pic level.

[tra...@optonline.net]

> Tom Horne- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm with you on the essence of what you are saying regarding
how the power is distributed. Where
I still have questions is back to the original observation. Out
on country roads, you have 3 high voltage wires, one for
each phase. Then you'll have a group of houses. There
is a transformer for those houses and it's connected to
one phase. Since there are only 3 primary high voltage
wires, are you saying the other side of the transformer is
connected to the same neutral as the 240V services of
the houses? I can see that working, as then you have
multiple connections to earth ground for return on the
primary side. But then there is
also clearly substantial current flowing through earth
ground back to the substation or more likely I guess
to other earth ground points with other nearby pole
transformers that are on different phases.

If it's not done that way, then I don't understand the
return path from that pole transformer. All I see are
the 3 high voltage wires and then below it the 3
240V service wires, 2 hots, one neutral,
going down the road. In other
words, there is no neutral return path that I can
see other than the 240V, secondary one. So, is it shared?
I think that is what Bud said he thought might be
going on too. And that seems to be the essence
of the OP's question that has him stumped.

[bud--]

On 2/24/2012 9:45 AM, Evan wrote:

> On Feb 24, 10:14 am, dennisga...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I just noticed that all the residential transformers on the poles on
>> my street only have one wire feeding them. There are three wires on
>> top of the pole.
>>
>> One wire in, and three wires out to the triplex feeding my house.
>> There are no other visible connections on the transformer.
>>
>> Heck, the next street over only has ONE wire at the top of the pole...
>>
>> I thought the three wires on the pole corresponded to each leg on my
>> breaker panel, and a ground wire.
>>
>> How is the transformer creating two 110V legs and a ground from one
>> feed wire? This just goes against everything I learned in school about
>> electricity.
>

> Read up more on transformers...
>
> Residential power is typically single phase (although there are
> some exceptions to this) with a center tapped secondary winding
> on the transformer...
>

> ~~ Evan

Totally irrelevant to what dennis asked.

In the urban area here the primary return is by the continuous secondary
neutral, which attaches to the primary neutral at the feed point. It is
multi-grounded, but the wire is lower resistance than the earth (or at
least lower resistance than the earth connection). In rural areas I
don't remember anywhere there wasn't another wire on the pole in
addition to 1 or 3 distribution wires. Transmission wires don't
necessarily have a neutral because it can be created at a substation.
There may be solely earth return somewhere in the state, but I don't
remember seeing it.

--
bud--

[bud--]

Sounded pretty crazy the first time I saw you post it.

Jeff Wisnia came up with an FCC interference handbook
http://tinyurl.com/63ob78
or
http://transition.fcc.gov/ftp/Bureaus/Mass_Media/Databases/documents_collection/1993InterferenceHandbook.pdf

that gives details. Some doorbell transformers have a thermal protector
on the primary that opens (and closes) if the transformer overheats. (It
may be part of the limitation on current/power for a class 2
transformer.) It can wind up cycling maybe 7 times a second. My guess is
that doorbell transformers have not been made that way for quite a while.

--
bud--

[Moe Gasser]

Ahhhh-haaaaa!

So that's how they ground the Space Station and other satellites!

[George]

I have been on a lot of country roads and have never seen what you
described. Typically there are the Y derived phase conductors on a
crossarm or bracket with three insulators and an uninsulated neutral
below. As density gets lower they will only carry one of the primary
conductors and the neutral.

[George]

They are both.

The pretty much standard system is a Y derived HV primary ~ 12kv phase
to phase or ~ 7.2kv phase to neutral.

[gregz]

I had two houses but never heard of that. Perhaps I did and forgot. Years
ago our ham club had an interference expert from PG&E, come in to our
meeting. The way he tracked down that type of interference was use am
radios. You start at the broadcast band then work your way up in frequency,
narrowing down the location. Like, am broadcast, cb, aircraft band, etc.

The transformers I see know have a thermal break, for good.

Greg

[Mark Lloyd]

On 02/25/2012 11:30 AM, George wrote:

[snip]

> I have been on a lot of country roads and have never seen what you
> described. Typically there are the Y derived phase conductors on a
> crossarm or bracket with three insulators and an uninsulated neutral
> below. As density gets lower they will only carry one of the primary
> conductors and the neutral.

The one here appears to have the neutral on top. See the picture at
http://notstupid.us/pix/IMG_3427.JPG

[snip]

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the
subject." -- Winston Churchill

[Jim Yanik]

Metspitzer <kilo...@charter.net> wrote in
news:06pfk75ce4dne04ji...@4ax.com:

> On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 08:30:26 -0800 (PST), denni...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>On Feb 24, 10:45 am, Evan <evan.news.re...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Read up more on transformers...
>>>
>>> Residential power is typically single phase (although there are
>>> some exceptions to this) with a center tapped secondary winding
>>> on the transformer...
>>
>>The thing is, everything I know about electricity says that you need
>>TWO wires to make a complete circuit. AC or DC, doesn't matter.
>>
>>Most streets have two overhead wires, with two wires going to the
>>transformer.
>
>
> http://imgur.com/gFrGB
>

> I used 8000 for the primary from someone's earlier post. No clue what
> it really is.
>

talking to the utility guy replacing the power transformer on the
ground outside my apartment(after it blew),it was fed by 7200 volts,coming
from a nearby pole.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

[Pete C.]

Mark Lloyd wrote:
>
> On 02/25/2012 11:30 AM, George wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > I have been on a lot of country roads and have never seen what you
> > described. Typically there are the Y derived phase conductors on a
> > crossarm or bracket with three insulators and an uninsulated neutral
> > below. As density gets lower they will only carry one of the primary
> > conductors and the neutral.
>
> The one here appears to have the neutral on top. See the picture at
> http://notstupid.us/pix/IMG_3427.JPG

The theory with that is the neutral up top is most likely to take a
lightning strike. They do the same on the long haul transmission lines.

[The Daring Dufas]

I've used pocket sized AM radios for years to find powered Romex inside
walls before making any cuts into plaster or Sheetrock. ^_^

TDD

[The Daring Dufas]

Another common high voltage power feed in the U.S. is 13,800 volts.

TDD

[gregz]

Oh, this is cheap and great for finding near field electrostatic noise, and
60 power lines. Using the transmitter, unpowered wires.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cable-tracker-94181.html

Greg

[The Daring Dufas]

Back in the 1980's when I was installing a halon fire suppression system
in a mission control center, I used similar more expensive
gear to trace hundreds of wires. The goose neck on the probe is a
feature not seen on the domestically manufactured equipment. It looks
handy enough to justify adding it to my collection, especially if
someone wants to borrow my tone tracer set which costs around $80.00
and people are bad about breaking things they borrow. ^_^

TDD

[gregz]

I never used the transmitter yet. I always was thinking of buying the more
expensive unit.

Most of these are billed as having induction. This does not mean magnetic
or emf. It's strictly electrostatic field. One day I'm going to modify it
to pick up either field, for the ghost hunters !!

Greg

[The Daring Dufas]

Oh heck! Get on Amazon and search EMF meters. ^_^

http://www.amazon.com/Sonic-Technology-Products-Inc-ES9000/dp/B000G82KLI/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1330386014&sr=1-1

http://preview.tinyurl.com/7bfaqxt

TDD

[gregz]

Too hard for me to cut.

The trouble with most emf meters, they don't tell frequency. With a speaker
at least you hear harmonics. Even 60 hz is difficult or impossible to hear
without headphones.

Greg

[The Daring Dufas]

For a strange hearing experience, I have an ultrasonic leak detector
that listens for the high frequency sound waves caused by escaping gas
from tiny pinholes. It has a bar graph display composed of LED's and an
earphone output for headphones. The circuitry picks up the ultrasound
and converts it to audio in the range of human hearing. A ring of keys
being slightly shaken sounds like wind chimes in the headphones and
rubbing your fingers together lets you hear the sound the ridges and
valleys that make up your fingerprints produce when scratching over each
other. If you ever wondered why shaking keys make dogs go nuts,
you'll know why when listening to the ultrasound through the detector. ^_^

TDD

[gregz]

I got a laser with chain, which I sometimes entertain the cats with. I
can't pick it up without them looking at me.

Greg

[Evan]

"Continuous Secondary Neutral" if by that you mean it is
connected to all service points fed by each separate
transformer, then ok, if you mean that all the secondary
neutrals on all transformers are connected in common,
not where I am from...

You can clearly see on some streets which used to
be fed from only one transformer that now have more
than one now feeding the houses, that the original
wires have been cut, drawn back and taped up to
break the circuit in the areas fed by the new
transformers...

As far as what I said not applying to the OP's
question, it does, the transformer breaking down
power from intermediate distribution voltages
down to residential 240 volt service is providing
single phase power with a center tapped
secondary winding providing the neutral which
allows for 120 volt loads...

~~ Evan

[Evan]

On Feb 25, 8:31 pm, The Daring Dufas <the-daring-du...@stinky.net>
wrote:

> On 2/25/2012 2:09 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> > Metspitzer<kilow...@charter.net>  wrote in
> >news:06pfk75ce4dne04ji...@4ax.com:

>
> >> On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 08:30:26 -0800 (PST), dennisga...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >>> On Feb 24, 10:45 am, Evan<evan.news.re...@earthlink.net>  wrote:
> >>>> Read up more on transformers...
>
> >>>> Residential power is typically single phase (although there are
> >>>> some exceptions to this) with a center tapped secondary winding
> >>>> on the transformer...
>
> >>> The thing is, everything I know about electricity says that you need
> >>> TWO wires to make a complete circuit. AC or DC, doesn't matter.
>
> >>> Most streets have two overhead wires, with two wires going to the
> >>> transformer.
>
> >>http://imgur.com/gFrGB
>
> >> I used 8000 for the primary from someone's earlier post.  No clue what
> >> it really is.
>
> > talking to the utility guy replacing the power transformer on the
> > ground outside my apartment(after it blew),it was fed by 7200 volts,coming
> > from a nearby pole.
>
> Another common high voltage power feed in the U.S. is 13,800 volts.
>
> TDD

That would only be considered "high voltage" to someone
who is only familiar with "low voltages" less than 600 volts...

It is usually called "intermediate distribution voltage" or
"medium voltage" by people who know what they are
talking about...

[The Daring Dufas]

Have you ever tried cat juggling? You must catch the cat because the
critters can't handle end over end flips and they would land on their
furry little heads and get hurt, that would be mean and cruel but it's
very entertaining. ^_^

TDD

[The Daring Dufas]

Well, I've worked as an electrician and had to get certified to make
high voltage splices and connections on buried "high voltage" power
cable rated at 15,000 volts. I've worked with a lot of "high voltage"
switch gear that used 4,160 volts. What kind of "high voltage" equipment
have you serviced and installed? I don't know what your experience with
electrical power distribution may be but I can assure you that me and
guys like me who want to live, call any electrical power over 600 volts
"high voltage" and treat it as "high voltage" because we want to keep
living. ^_^

TDD

[Stormin Mormon]

(angel)

> The Daring Dufas<the-dari...@stinky.net> wrote:
>> On 2/27/2012 7:41 PM, gregz wrote:
>>> The Daring Dufas<the-dari...@stinky.net> wrote:
>>>> On 2/27/2012 11:50 AM, gregz wrote:
>>>>> The Daring Dufas<the-dari...@stinky.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/25/2012 8:43 PM, gregz wrote:
>>>>>>> The Daring Dufas<the-dari...@stinky.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2/25/2012 1:04 PM, gregz wrote:
>>>>>>>>> bud--<remove....@isp.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/25/2012 1:56 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/24/2012 8:14 PM, Pete C. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>

| | [christmas presents]

[Stormin Mormon]

I saw keyring size lasers in Dollar Tree, yesterday. They sure have come
down in price. I carry a laser for occasional pointing at things at a
distance. Or, so I tell people. Really, it's for ammusing cats.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"gregz" <ze...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1670707956352177793.1...@news.eternal-september.org...

[bud--]

What "high voltage" is depends on who is using the term and sometimes
the context. What you wrote is correct.

In any case it is another useless post from Evan.

--
bud--

[The Daring Dufas]

I believe Evan is referring to terminology used by regional power
distribution engineers who work with high voltage. It's like the
difference between me and a congressman, I talk about a lot of money
in $1,000.00 increments, a congress critter talks about a lot of money
in trillion dollar increments. Congressman Moe Money says "Why hell boy,
that ain't much money at all! What's a a few billion dollars added to
the budget for studying insect porn distribution on The Internet?". ^_^

TDD

TDD

[The Daring Dufas]

On 2/29/2012 10:39 AM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 00:58:05 -0600, The Daring Dufas
> <the-dari...@stinky.net> wrote:
>
>>> "medium voltage" by people who know what they are
>>> talking about...
>>
>> Well, I've worked as an electrician and had to get certified to make
>> high voltage splices and connections on buried "high voltage" power
>> cable rated at 15,000 volts
>

> Evan is right, utility workers call anything from 601 to about 50kv
> medium voltage.
>
> High voltage can get up to around 1 million volts.
> The HV lines you see in the background of the pictures I posted are
> 250,000 v
>

Linemen who work on high voltage power distribution systems use a very
different point of reference than us lowly mundane electricians. What
I said stands. ^_^

TDD

[Metspitzer]

Really?

There are just as many, if not more, engineers that would anything
greater than 600 Volts "High Voltage" Does that mean they don't know
what they are talking about?

[George]

The NEC defines anything above 600V as "high voltage". I think the point
of that it is the level where extra training and precautions are
required for general safety. "Intermediate distribution voltage" is a
common term but it still falls under the general umbrella of "high voltage"

[bud--]

On 2/29/2012 10:39 AM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 00:58:05 -0600, The Daring Dufas
> <the-dari...@stinky.net> wrote:
>
>>> "medium voltage" by people who know what they are
>>> talking about...
>>
>> Well, I've worked as an electrician and had to get certified to make
>> high voltage splices and connections on buried "high voltage" power

>> cable rated at 15,000 volts
>
> Evan is right, utility workers call anything from 601 to about 50kv
> medium voltage.
>
> High voltage can get up to around 1 million volts.
> The HV lines you see in the background of the pictures I posted are
> 250,000 v
>

As I wrote, it depends on who is using the term.

For this newsgroup I don't see correcting Dufas being at all useful,
particularly when Evan said Dufas did not know what he was "talking
about". Perhaps in an electrical engineering forum....

Somewhere like here I would likely use transmission, distribution, and
utilization voltage.

--
bud--

[gregz]

I lost my dear friend rocky. He loved the laser. When younger, he would
take a stance indication he wanted to play. The day I showed him a harbor
freight line leveling laser, he went bananas. For a few days, that's all he
wanted do do.

Greg

[The Daring Dufas]

Your cat wanted do do? Hum, strange cat. ^_^

TDD

[The Daring Dufas]

Geez! I think you failed to grok my point which is not a slap at
engineers, I'm simply pointing out a difference in the use of
terminology. It's like the word "bad" which can mean a lot of
different things to many different people. If you deal with high
voltages that start at 4,160 volts, I'm sure you'll consider that
value to be a low one. If you deal with microprocessors, 12 volts
is an outrageously high voltage to you. o_O

TDD

[The Daring Dufas]

On 2/29/2012 2:35 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:

> Yup it is whether you sleep with the NEC or the NESC.
>
> I am around both of them.

The only high voltage I've ever been involved with is 4,160 volt
underground distribution, pad mounted transformers and switchgear at
various locations. Splicing and connecting direct buried high voltage
cable is interesting work because if not done correctly, the darn
splices can explode if there is a defect. I did a lot of HV work on an
island where there was salt water exposure which complicated things a
bit. Darn it, I loved being out in the tropics. ^_^

TDD

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

Ours loved them for a few weeks, then decided that catching the mouse would be
fun, too. After ten years, one will get excited for about a nanosecond.

[The Daring Dufas]

Roommate has a psychotic beagle that will chase flash lite and laser
spots. o_O

TDD

[Stormin Mormon]

It's a slam on HF quality. You know, that #### stuff from that #### Horrid
Fright place. A discriminating cat would have wanted a Makita level, or
Stanley, or Metabo. But, the cat wanted the do do level.

Or, it could be a simple typp.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@stinky.net> wrote in message
news:jim13f$8jb$1...@dont-email.me...

[Stormin Mormon]

Have you considered getting the poor dog some help? Doggy Psychiatrist?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@stinky.net> wrote in message

news:jimm4i$53m$1...@dont-email.me...

[Tekkie®]

gfre...@aol.com posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

>
> Yup it is whether you sleep with the NEC or the NESC.
>
> I am around both of them.
>

SLUT!!! (Kidding)

--
Tekkie

[bud--]

To return to where this started_

Dufas said "Another common high voltage power feed in the U.S. is 13,800
volts." I really think everyone knew exactly what he was talking about.

If he had said "Another common medium voltage power feed in the U.S. is
13,800 volts" what he said would have been less intelligible.

gfretwell might have replied something like "You might be interested
that the utility guys call it medium voltage."

Instead Evan said 'it is medium voltage for people who know what they
are talking about.' People who know what they are talking about
apparently doesn't include Dufas.
Also 'it is only be considered "high voltage" to someone who is only
familiar with "low voltages" less than 600 volts" '. (Which Dufas has
demonstrated is untrue - electricians also work on "high voltage" 13.8kV
systems.)

It is the classical Evan - pompous and condescending - that particularly
annoys me.

--
bud--

[The Daring Dufas]

On 3/1/2012 7:12 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> Have you considered getting the poor dog some help? Doggy Psychiatrist?
>

Anyone familiar with beagles knows that canine psychosis is a trait of
the breed. ^_^

TDD

[The Daring Dufas]

Well shucks, Evan doesn't bother me but what we both wrote was true
depending on the context. To me, any voltage of a level that would
allow it to jump from a conductor to me any distance through air of
a normal humidity is darn well "high voltage". An electrical engineer
I knew was killed some years ago when a door locking rod in the cabinet
door of a piece of 4,160 volt switch gear slipped out of its retainer
and fell into the energized buss as he opened the door, it was quite
an explosion that took out a wonderful guy and family man. Very high
current and high voltage power is nothing to relax and be comfortable
around. Too many good people have made that horrible mistake. o_O

TDD