Excessive noise from second floor toilet

[Pointer]

Builder's standard tank and bowl toilet on second floor of condo. Drain
runs from toilet down a vertical line between uninsulated walls in lower
condo unit. When flushed it sound in the lower unit is quite loud like
a waterfall.

Short of wholesale changes in rerouting drain any suggestions to cut
down on noise?

Seems to me:
- a lower flow toilet might help
- blowing in insulation between the two bys might help

Any other logical and useful ideas?

Thanks

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

[philo]

On 02/16/2014 05:12 PM, Pointer wrote:
> Builder's standard tank and bowl toilet on second floor of condo. Drain
> runs from toilet down a vertical line between uninsulated walls in lower
> condo unit. When flushed it sound in the lower unit is quite loud like
> a waterfall.
>
> Short of wholesale changes in rerouting drain any suggestions to cut
> down on noise?
>
> Seems to me:
> - a lower flow toilet might help
> - blowing in insulation between the two bys might help
>
> Any other logical and useful ideas?
>
> Thanks
>

A lower flow toilet won't help as all the water is going to let loose at
once anyway. Insulating the walls should help.

[gregz]

Blown in cellulose is suppose to work good, compared to fiberglass.

Greg

[nestork]

Noise is nothing more than pressure waves in the air caused by something
moving. The further and more rapidly something moves, the louder the
noise it creates because the stronger the air pressure wave it creates
with each movement. You can prove this to yourself by setting off your
smoke alarm intentionally, and finding containers to keep it in to
reduce the noise. You will find that a pyrex casserole pot works really
well because pyrex is a dense heavy glass that is very strong and stiff.
It moves very little in response to the sound waves from the smoke
detector hitting it, and so the only noise you hear is the result of the
pyrex moving, and that's very little. The result is that you hear very
little noise with the smoke detector in the pyrex casserole dish because
the walls and top of the pyrex casserole dish are hardly moving at all.

That is, you can have a tempest in a tea pot, but if the walls of the
tea pot don't move, then no one can hear the tempest inside.

Cast iron vent stacks were the standard for decades. Cast iron is much
heavier than ABS or PVC, and so cast iron moves LESS when it vibrates as
a result of water plunging through it, and the smaller movement means a
quieter flush heard downstairs.

You can eliminate the noise if you can eliminate the movement of the
plastic Vent stack in your wall.

I would use something inexpensive like wall paper or masking tape to
cover the stud cavity where the vent stack is, and then fill that stud
cavity with expanding foam. That way, you can eliminate it completely
should you ever want to by simply removing most of it with a knife, and
then peeling the wallpaper or masking tape off.




--
nestork

[bob haller]

the noise is te water falling down the sewer line, extremely common with PVC pipe.

Cast iron didnt conduct sound well.PVC is a excellent sound conductor:(


the best most effective fix iis replacing the offending section of line with hubless cast iron line.

No doubt every unit in your condo has the same issue:(

If yyour home is new go after the builder while its under warranty.

Some people are very sensitive to noise that others will likely ignore

[trapped-in-u...@helpme.com]

On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 18:12:25 -0500, Pointer <dryea...@verizon.net>
wrote:

>Builder's standard tank and bowl toilet on second floor of condo. Drain
>runs from toilet down a vertical line between uninsulated walls in lower
>condo unit. When flushed it sound in the lower unit is quite loud like
>a waterfall.
>
>Short of wholesale changes in rerouting drain any suggestions to cut
>down on noise?
>
>Seems to me:
>- a lower flow toilet might help
>- blowing in insulation between the two bys might help
>
>Any other logical and useful ideas?

LET ME OUT!!!!

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Sunday, February 16, 2014 11:36:19 PM UTC-5, nestork wrote:
> Noise is nothing more than pressure waves in the air caused by something
>
> moving. The further and more rapidly something moves, the louder the
>
> noise it creates because the stronger the air pressure wave it creates
>
> with each movement. You can prove this to yourself by setting off your
>
> smoke alarm intentionally, and finding containers to keep it in to
>
> reduce the noise. You will find that a pyrex casserole pot works really
>
> well because pyrex is a dense heavy glass that is very strong and stiff.
>
> It moves very little in response to the sound waves from the smoke
>
> detector hitting it, and so the only noise you hear is the result of the
>
> pyrex moving, and that's very little. The result is that you hear very
>
> little noise with the smoke detector in the pyrex casserole dish because
>
> the walls and top of the pyrex casserole dish are hardly moving at all.
>
>
>
> That is, you can have a tempest in a tea pot, but if the walls of the
>
> tea pot don't move, then no one can hear the tempest inside.
>
>
>
> Cast iron vent stacks were the standard for decades. Cast iron is much
>
> heavier than ABS or PVC, and so cast iron moves LESS when it vibrates as
>
> a result of water plunging through it, and the smaller movement means a
>
> quieter flush heard downstairs.
>
>
>
> You can eliminate the noise if you can eliminate the movement of the
>
> plastic Vent stack in your wall.
>
>

From the description, it's the unit *below* that's getting the
noise. Plus, I've never heard a noisy vent. Plenty of noise
from a plastic toilet drain line though.

>
> I would use something inexpensive like wall paper or masking tape to
>
> cover the stud cavity where the vent stack is, and then fill that stud
>
> cavity with expanding foam. That way, you can eliminate it completely
>
> should you ever want to by simply removing most of it with a knife, and
>
> then peeling the wallpaper or masking tape off.
>
>

OMG? Remove drywall in a condo, replace it with wallpaper?
Have you been drinking?

About the only part you have here right is that cast iron pipe
makes a lot noise than PVC, ABS. He could try insulation. Not
sure blowing in is going to work. Who knows how that pipe is
routed and where the blown-in can or can't get to. If he wants
to try that approach, I'd rip out the drywall, fully expose
the problem and then figure out how to get it covered with
insulation, expanding foam perhaps.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Monday, February 17, 2014 9:46:26 AM UTC-5, bob haller wrote:
> the noise is te water falling down the sewer line, extremely common with PVC pipe.
>
>
>
> Cast iron didnt conduct sound well.PVC is a excellent sound conductor:(
>
>
>
>
>
> the best most effective fix iis replacing the offending section of line with hubless cast iron line.
>
>

+1, but not easy or cheap.

>
> No doubt every unit in your condo has the same issue:(
>
>
>
> If yyour home is new go after the builder while its under warranty.
>
>

Good luck with that. People typically can't get the warranty to
honor foundations that are falling down. I would bet it's virtually
impossible to get a warranty claim on noise from a toilet flushing
paid off.

>
> Some people are very sensitive to noise that others will likely ignore

That's what the warranty company is going to say.

[Tekkie®]

Pointer posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

> Builder's standard tank and bowl toilet on second floor of condo
>

That sums up this post. It's a condo and what can you do?

--
Tekkie

[nestork]

'tra...@optonline.net[_2_ Wrote:
> ;3199616']

> From the description, it's the unit *below* that's getting the
> noise. Plus, I've never heard a noisy vent. Plenty of noise
> from a plastic toilet drain line though.

Now, hold on a minute trader. Before you start rolling your eyes and
calling everyone around you stupid, read the original post again:

1. The guy owns a two story condo. The builder's toilet is on the upper
floor of that condo, and he's saying that when that toilet is flushed,
you can hear a lot of noise on the lower level (because of the plastic
stack the toilet empties into).

2. Toilets don't have vent piping like a sink drain does. Instead, the
toilet empties directly into something commonly called a "vent stack".
Actually, to be precise, only the upper part of this pipe is called
that. The lower part of it is called a "soil stack", but it's commong
for people to refer to the entire pipe as a "vent stack".

If you stand in your basement right below where any of the toilets
original to the house are, you'll find that you're standing beside a big
4 inch diameter cast iron or plastic pipe. That pipe runs vertically
from just below your concrete basement floor straight up through the
interior walls of your house, and through the attic and through the roof
where it's open to the atmosphere. The drains in the house connect to
that pipe before it disappears under the concrete and the vent piping in
the house connect to that pipe before it goes through the roof. At the
bottom of that pipe there will be a bend where the pipe turns almost
horizontal and runs downward at a shallow angle to the sewer pipe under
the middle of the street you live on, OR at a downward angle to your
septic tank if you are rural.
If you have more than one toilet original to the house, but not
located close to each other when viewed from above, you will have an
auxilliary stack for the other toilet(s).
I haven't heard of a noisy vent either.


-

I would use something inexpensive like wall paper or masking tape
to
cover the stud cavity where the vent stack is, and then fill that stud
cavity with expanding foam. That way, you can eliminate it completely
should you ever want to by simply removing most of it with a knife,
and
then peeling the wallpaper or masking tape off.

-

'tra...@optonline.net[_2_ Wrote:
> ;3199616']

> OMG? Remove drywall in a condo, replace it with wallpaper?
> Have you been drinking?
>
> About the only part you have here right is that cast iron pipe
> makes a lot noise than PVC, ABS. He could try insulation. Not
> sure blowing in is going to work. Who knows how that pipe is
> routed and where the blown-in can or can't get to. If he wants
> to try that approach, I'd rip out the drywall, fully expose
> the problem and then figure out how to get it covered with
> insulation, expanding foam perhaps.

Please re-read what I posted. I advised the OP to remove the drywall
from the stud cavity that housed the vent stack, and then apply
wallpaper or masking tape to the inside of the stud cavity and the vent
stack itself. Then, fill the whole cavity with expanding foam caulk to
hold the vent stack securely so that it doesn't vibrate when toilet
water swirls around inside it on it's way out of the building. Then,
replace the drywall with 1/2 inch thick Hardibacker board. And, if he
removes the drywall on both sides of that stud cavity, then to put 1/2"
Hardibacker board on both side of the wall, and finish it like drywall.

That way, if the expanding foam caulk doesn't work as well as he'd
hoped, he can always remove most of the foam with a knife and then
remove the last traces of it by pulling off the wall paper or masking
tape the foam is sticking to.

I hadn't had a drink in a full 15 minutes when I posted that advice.




--
nestork

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Monday, February 17, 2014 4:25:23 PM UTC-5, nestork wrote:
> 'tra...@optonline.net[_2_ Wrote:
>
> > ;3199616']
>
> > From the description, it's the unit *below* that's getting the
>
> > noise. Plus, I've never heard a noisy vent. Plenty of noise
>
> > from a plastic toilet drain line though.
>
>
>
> Now, hold on a minute trader. Before you start rolling your eyes and
>
> calling everyone around you stupid, read the original post again:
>
>
>
> 1. The guy owns a two story condo. The builder's toilet is on the upper
>
> floor of that condo, and he's saying that when that toilet is flushed,
>
> you can hear a lot of noise on the lower level (because of the plastic
>
> stack the toilet empties into).
>
>
>
> 2. Toilets don't have vent piping like a sink drain does. Instead, the
>
> toilet empties directly into something commonly called a "vent stack".
>
> Actually, to be precise, only the upper part of this pipe is called
>
> that. The lower part of it is called a "soil stack", but it's commong
>
> for people to refer to the entire pipe as a "vent stack".
>

Not in my experience. The vent stack is the portion that serves as
a vent and sewage doesn't go through.

>
> If you stand in your basement right below where any of the toilets
>
> original to the house are, you'll find that you're standing beside a big
>
> 4 inch diameter cast iron or plastic pipe. That pipe runs vertically
>
> from just below your concrete basement floor straight up through the
>
> interior walls of your house, and through the attic and through the roof
>
> where it's open to the atmosphere. The drains in the house connect to
>
> that pipe before it disappears under the concrete and the vent piping in
>
> the house connect to that pipe before it goes through the roof.

And the portion above where waste enters is the vent stack portion.

At the
>
> bottom of that pipe there will be a bend where the pipe turns almost
>
> horizontal and runs downward at a shallow angle to the sewer pipe under
>
> the middle of the street you live on, OR at a downward angle to your
>
> septic tank if you are rural.
>
> If you have more than one toilet original to the house, but not
>
> located close to each other when viewed from above, you will have an
>
> auxilliary stack for the other toilet(s).
>
> I haven't heard of a noisy vent either.
>
>
>
>
>
> -
>
> I would use something inexpensive like wall paper or masking tape
>
> to
>
> cover the stud cavity where the vent stack is, and then fill that stud
>
> cavity with expanding foam. That way, you can eliminate it completely
>
> should you ever want to by simply removing most of it with a knife,
>
> and
>
> then peeling the wallpaper or masking tape off.
>
> -
>

Why in the world would you want to be able to take it back out?

>
>
> 'tra...@optonline.net[_2_ Wrote:
>
> > ;3199616']
>
> > OMG? Remove drywall in a condo, replace it with wallpaper?
>
> > Have you been drinking?
>
> >
>
> > About the only part you have here right is that cast iron pipe
>
> > makes a lot noise than PVC, ABS. He could try insulation. Not
>
> > sure blowing in is going to work. Who knows how that pipe is
>
> > routed and where the blown-in can or can't get to. If he wants
>
> > to try that approach, I'd rip out the drywall, fully expose
>
> > the problem and then figure out how to get it covered with
>
> > insulation, expanding foam perhaps.
>
>
>
> Please re-read what I posted. I advised the OP to remove the drywall
>
> from the stud cavity that housed the vent stack, and then apply
>
> wallpaper or masking tape to the inside of the stud cavity and the vent
>
> stack itself. Then, fill the whole cavity with expanding foam caulk to
>
> hold the vent stack securely so that it doesn't vibrate when toilet
>
> water swirls around inside it on it's way out of the building. Then,
>
> replace the drywall with 1/2 inch thick Hardibacker board. And, if he
>
> removes the drywall on both sides of that stud cavity, then to put 1/2"
>
> Hardibacker board on both side of the wall, and finish it like drywall.
>
>

No, you left all that out. What you said was:

" would use something inexpensive like wall paper or masking tape to
cover the stud cavity where the vent stack is, and then fill that stud
cavity with expanding foam. That way, you can eliminate it completely
should you ever want to by simply removing most of it with a knife, and
then peeling the wallpaper or masking tape off. "

I'm not a mind reader. Nor do I see the need to line the cavity
with anything. They build houses every day where all the cavities
ae filled with spray in insulation, so why should he treat his one
little cavity as needing that?

>
> That way, if the expanding foam caulk doesn't work as well as he'd
>
> hoped, he can always remove most of the foam with a knife and then
>
> remove the last traces of it by pulling off the wall paper or masking
>
> tape the foam is sticking to.
>

If it doesn't work, then I guess it doesn't work and he can
just leave it there. I guess if he's willing to replumb the thing
and go to cast iron, then your lining plan could have some merit.

>
> I hadn't had a drink in a full 15 minutes when I posted that advice.
>
>

That's good.

[DerbyDad03]

nestork <nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote:
> 'tra...@optonline.net[_2_ Wrote:
>> ;3199616']
>> From the description, it's the unit *below* that's getting the
>> noise. Plus, I've never heard a noisy vent. Plenty of noise
>> from a plastic toilet drain line though.
>
> Now, hold on a minute trader. Before you start rolling your eyes and
> calling everyone around you stupid, read the original post again:
>
> 1. The guy owns a two story condo. The builder's toilet is on the upper
> floor of that condo, and he's saying that when that toilet is flushed,
> you can hear a lot of noise on the lower level (because of the plastic
> stack the toilet empties into).
>
> 2. Toilets don't have vent piping like a sink drain does. Instead, the
> toilet empties directly into something commonly called a "vent stack".
> Actually, to be precise, only the upper part of this pipe is called
> that. The lower part of it is called a "soil stack", but it's commong
> for people to refer to the entire pipe as a "vent stack".
>

Actually, to be precise, the toilet doesn't empty _directly_ into the soil
stack, it empties into a pipe that empties into the soil stack, much the
same way a sink empties into a pipe that empties into a waste stack.

http://inspectapedia.com/plumbing/1621s.jpg

Sometimes the soil stack and the waste stack are one and the same. Well, to
be precise, there may be only a soil stack and no waste stack. This is more
or less how my bathroom is plumbed with one key difference, detailed
further down in this post.

http://www.plumber24hours.co.uk/images/waste-pipe-diagram.jpg

> If you stand in your basement right below where any of the toilets
> original to the house are, you'll find that you're standing beside a big
> 4 inch diameter cast iron or plastic pipe. That pipe runs vertically
> from just below your concrete basement floor straight up through the
> interior walls of your house, and through the attic and through the roof
> where it's open to the atmosphere. The drains in the house connect to
> that pipe before it disappears under the concrete and the vent piping in
> the house connect to that pipe before it goes through the roof. At the
> bottom of that pipe there will be a bend where the pipe turns almost
> horizontal and runs downward at a shallow angle to the sewer pipe under
> the middle of the street you live on, OR at a downward angle to your
> septic tank if you are rural.


> If you have more than one toilet original to the house, but not
> located close to each other when viewed from above, you will have an
> auxilliary stack for the other toilet(s).

Maybe, maybe not. As far as I know, my basement toilet is original to the
house, as is the utility sink and basement shower. None of these have an
auxiliary stack. There is one and only one vent stack in my house and no
vents running to any fixtures.

See this picture again, but eliminate all vent pipes other than the stack
itself.

http://www.plumber24hours.co.uk/images/waste-pipe-diagram.jpg

> I haven't heard of a noisy vent either.
>

Me neither.

> -
> I would use something inexpensive like wall paper or masking tape
> to
> cover the stud cavity where the vent stack is, and then fill that stud
> cavity with expanding foam. That way, you can eliminate it completely
> should you ever want to by simply removing most of it with a knife,
> and
> then peeling the wallpaper or masking tape off.
> -

I gotta side with trader a little bit in this one. It was not evident when
you posted that that you intended that the stud cavity then be covered with
a solid surface e.g. drywall. The fact that you added "by simply removing
most of it with a knife" did not leave a picture in my mind that there was
drywall covering the foam. Just for a minute, imagine that you are us
sitting out here on the interweb reading your words. Your posts are usually
extremely detailed, so when you leave off "and then finish the wall with
drywall" it really stands out.

[hrho...@sbcglobal.net]

My initial misunderstasnding also, the reply was not detailed enough.

[nestork]

Anyhow, what I meant to say was:

1. open the stud cavity on the lower floor where the vent stack is

2. cover the vent stack and the interior surfaces of the stud cavity
with wall paper or masking tape just so that you can always revert to
the original situation should you want/need to. (I never like to do
anything that I know in advance is gonna be hard to undo.)

3. Use 3" drywall or deck screws to fasten 2X2 Spruce nailers to the
offsetting studs. Those 2X2's will provide a nailing surface on each
side of the stud cavity.

4. Put some wax paper over the stud cavity and drywall screw some
plywood (a foot or two high) to the 2X2 nailers. Now fill the wall
cavity up to the top of that plywood with expanding foam. Allow 24 hour
for the foam to cure and cut off any excess that comes over the top of
the plywood. Acetone easily dissolves uncured or cured expanding foam.
You can buy the narrow plastic tubing that comes with the expanding foam
caulk at any hardware store or home center, allowing you to inject the
foam without having to maneuver the can into and out of the stud
cavity.

5. Remove the plywood and set some more wax paper over the next section
of the wall to be filled with expanding foam.

6. Keep going until you reach the ceiling.

7. Now, install 1/2 inch thick Hardibacker board instead of drywall
over the stud cavity and finish the joints just like they were drywall
joints.


The whole point in wraping the stack with masking tape or putting wall
paper on the studs and back or the drywall on the opposite side is
simply to allow the OP to remove that expanding foam completely without
a major fight. If you allow that stuff to stick to the walls and pipe,
then you're going to be scraping it off in tiny pieces that stick to
everything. This way, he can remove the masking tape and wallpaper with
the foam attached to get back to the situation he started with so that
he can discuss replacing that plastic with cast iron with a plumber if
he wants.




--
nestork

[bob haller]

If you want a 100% fix replace the PVCwith hubless cast iron, in the offending area.

Hubless cast iron is easy to work with, it uses ferncos to connect. no oakum, no molten lead. etc etc.

if your ging to be removing sections of drywall you might as well do it right, do it once then forget about it.

[bob haller]

maybe 20 years ago my GF at the time wanted to stay on site at disney world..

We stayed at port orleans it was a brand new on site hotel complex...nice BUT.

any time anyone flushed a toilet every other nearby room knew what was going on, the flushing sounds went on all nite.. we did not sleep well.

when we got back I wrote a nice letter of complaint, and disney responded with a discount on a future stay, and said the noise issue was being corrected by replacing much of the plumbing in what was a brand new resort.

not long after that they appeared to have re named the resort, it had issues....

[jamesgang]

If you can minimize the points where the pvc pipe contacts the wall framing the noise will be reduced. Depending on your situation that may require removing wall board. Use plastic straps to hold the pipe in place without pulling it against the wood frame lumber.

[gregz]

nestork <nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote:
> Anyhow, what I meant to say was:
>
> 1. open the stud cavity on the lower floor where the vent stack is
>
> 2. cover the vent stack and the interior surfaces of the stud cavity
> with wall paper or masking tape just so that you can always revert to
> the original situation should you want/need to. (I never like to do
> anything that I know in advance is gonna be hard to undo.)
>
> 3. Use 3" drywall or deck screws to fasten 2X2 Spruce nailers to the
> offsetting studs. Those 2X2's will provide a nailing surface on each
> side of the stud cavity.
>
> 4. Put some wax paper over the stud cavity and drywall screw some
> plywood (a foot or two high) to the 2X2 nailers. Now fill the wall
> cavity up to the top of that plywood with expanding foam. Allow 24 hour
> for the foam to cure and cut off any excess that comes over the top of
> the plywood. Acetone easily dissolves uncured or cured expanding foam.
> You can buy the narrow plastic tubing that comes with the expanding foam
> caulk at any hardware store or home center, allowing you to inject the
> foam without having to maneuver the can into and out of the stud
> cavity.
>

I don't think foam will work well, and may even transmit more noise.

Greg

[bob haller]

the only real solution is replacing the offeng area with cast iron, or special PVC pipe that diminishes noise.

if our opening the wall cast iron is the better choice

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Wednesday, February 19, 2014 8:47:04 AM UTC-5, bob haller wrote:
> the only real solution is replacing the offeng area with cast iron, or special PVC pipe that diminishes noise.
>
>
>
> if our opening the wall cast iron is the better choice

I think you have a valid point. Once you have to open the wall,
might as well go for what is known to reduce noise a lot. The only
issue would be how accessible the pipe is so you can replace it.
I'm not real keen on using Ferncos in inaccessible places, where you
can't see them, etc, but for this, given the choices, I'd use them.

[gregz]

I went from cast iron and copper to PVC. Definitely startling.

Wrapping the PVC with auto sound wrap will help.
Adding interior insulation will help.
Using special sound drywall will help.

Greg