Samsung dishwasher has drain pump too small to work properly

[DManzaluni]

We have an abysmal Samsung dishwasher on which we have called out PC Richards about a half dozen times in the 9 months since it was installed.

Finally yesterday they sent repairman who knew what he was doing and he identified the problem as the drain pump being too small on their newer dishwashers.

Because it may not have been within his terms of reference, we couldnt get him to commit himself on which companies today’s DON'T have this not powerful enough drain pump. He kinda implied that all companies use this pump these days.

He showed me how to drain the dishwasher manually to obviate this problem. But draining manually doesn't really solve anything because during its cycle, the dishwasher drains and refills itself improperly a few times with dirty water!


Samsung know enough about this problem to send technicians out to deny their warranty when the unit was a few months old! (the Samsung guy pretended to take photos of a supposed bug infestation, - which existed only to deny the warranty! EIGHT MONTHS LATER, still no bugs have been seen in the flat

Does anyone out there know enough about this problem to identify a manufacturer that uses a proper pump please?

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 3/18/2023 12:04 PM, DManzaluni wrote:

>
> He showed me how to drain the dishwasher manually to obviate this problem. But draining manually doesn't really solve anything because during its cycle, the dishwasher drains and refills itself improperly a few times with dirty water!

I think you are trying to say it does not empty the old water fully and
then fills.

>

> Does anyone out there know enough about this problem to identify a manufacturer that uses a proper pump please?

My house came with a GE four years ago and works well. Before that,
KitchenAid was great.

[DManzaluni]

yes, but who makes them TODAY? I also used to have GEs, Profiles, Bosches, Maytags etc that worked.

[Dean Hoffman]

On Saturday, March 18, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, DManzaluni wrote:
> We have an abysmal Samsung dishwasher on which we have called out PC Richards about a half dozen times in the 9 months since it was installed.
>
> Finally yesterday they sent repairman who knew what he was doing and he identified the problem as the drain pump being too small on their newer dishwashers.
>
> Because it may not have been within his terms of reference, we couldnt get him to commit himself on which companies today’s DON'T have this not powerful enough drain pump. He kinda implied that all companies use this pump these days.
>
> He showed me how to drain the dishwasher manually to obviate this problem. But draining manually doesn't really solve anything because during its cycle, the dishwasher drains and refills itself improperly a few times with dirty water!
>
>

> Samsung know enough about this problsem to send technicians out to deny their warranty when the unit was a few months old! (the Samsung guy pretended to take photos of a supposed bug infestation, - which existed only to deny the warranty! EIGHT MONTHS LATER, still no bugs have been seen in the flat

>
> Does anyone out there know enough about this problem to identify a manufacturer that uses a proper pump please?

Consumer Reports doesn't mention the specific issue of drain pumps.
Top 3 24" dishwashers. Ratings are based on reliability, washing, drying, and energy use.
Thermador DWHD650WFM Score 83. $1400
Thermador DWHD650WFM Score 81. $2299
Bosch 300 Series SHEM63W55N Score 79. $999
All of the ones above score 4/5 on washing.
Reliability is 5/5.

Washing.
Ikea Essentiell (80.655.85) Score 77. $700. Reliability. 4/5
Café CDT805P2NS1 Score 74. $1073 Reliability. 3/5
GE GDT226SSLSS Score 73. $647 Reliability. 3/5
These 3 are rated 5/5 for washing.

[DManzaluni]

meaning that only the most expensive now rate a mention! That's a bit depressing!

[Bob F]

Are you sure it is not a problem with too small, or a plugged up drain
hose or connections? Or does it have to pump the water up too far above
the dishwasher? How does it work if you disconnect the hose from the
plumbing and just let the water pump into a 5 gallon bucket?

[Retirednoguilt]

On 3/18/2023 12:04 PM, DManzaluni wrote:

We've had a GE model GDT655SGJBB since 2018 that has performed
flawlessly. Very quiet operation, stainless steel interior, lots of
operating options. Only option missing is a stand-alone rinse cycle.
However, we don't pre-rinse our dishes or run the machine until it is
completely full (approx every 3-4 days. Despite that, everything gets
clean. We're totally satisfied. Don't know if they still make this
model but if they do, it's worth considering.

[Dean Hoffman]

On Saturday, March 18, 2023 at 12:10:19 PM UTC-5, DManzaluni wrote:
> meaning that only the most expensive now rate a mention! That's a bit depressing!

This one is cheaper and still has a 5/5 rating for cleaning.
Frigidaire GDPH4515AF. Score. 54. $499. Reliability. 3/5.
Energy use is apparently a big thing in CR's ratings.

I was going to ask the same thing as Bob about plugged drain lines and such.
Did your previous dishwasher have the same issue? How is the filter?

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 18 Mar 2023 10:27:31 -0700 (PDT), Dean
Hoffman <dean...@gmail.com> wrote:

I doubt this is the OP's problem, but I like telling the story.

MY DW wouldn't drain and it turned out that the little bone that runs
along the drumstick got stuck in the air-break, that is next to the
water faucet on some sinks. After I removed it, everything was fine.

[DManzaluni]

You are right: The line between the dishwasher and the drain is a few feet too long and it is only a half inch piping: so ALL my earlier dishwashers worked properly because they had a stronger drain pump. If you disconnect that hose, the Samsung will drain into a bucket. It snot that the drain pump doesn't work, it is just not strong enough.

That is why I asked if anyone knew any unit with an older pump, not if anyone knew of a reliable dishwasher that reviewed well and got a good cleaning rating.

[hub...@ccanoemail.com]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 12:42:03 -0700 (PDT), DManzaluni
<dmanz...@gmail.com> wrote:

>You are right: The line between the dishwasher and the drain
>is a few feet too long and it is only a half inch piping:

Ah ha ... I think I see the problem now -
- you have improper drain piping, so you blame
the appliance manufacturer ...
Gotcha. Over & out.
John T.

[Bob F]

On 3/18/2023 12:42 PM, DManzaluni wrote:
> You are right: The line between the dishwasher and the drain is a few feet too long and it is only a half inch piping: so ALL my earlier dishwashers worked properly because they had a stronger drain pump. If you disconnect that hose, the Samsung will drain into a bucket. It snot that the drain pump doesn't work, it is just not strong enough.
>
> That is why I asked if anyone knew any unit with an older pump, not if anyone knew of a reliable dishwasher that reviewed well and got a good cleaning rating.

Try flushing the line with full water pressure, or vacuum sucking it out
to make sure some object is not plugging it, especially if there are
elbows in the piping.

[Bob F]

Or, remove the excess piping, to a larger connection if possible, and
run a larger diameter, proper length hose to it.

[Dean Hoffman]

I imagine you've looked at online appliance repair parts sites for something. Would those
older pumps fit your dishwasher? Another suggestion would be to put a check valve on the discharge line to prevent backfeed. Lastly, could you add some sort of pump in series behind the
existing discharge pump? Put it in the discharge hose as closely as you can to the dishwasher. Wire it to come on when the discharge pump is working.

[DManzaluni]

> Try flushing the line with full water pressure, or vacuum sucking it out
> to make sure some object is not plugging it, especially if there are
> elbows in the piping.

Yes, I had wondered about that one! But the less competent repairmen have told me i need a plumber to do that as they aren't plumbers.

And as to the other points, I did get an 8 year warranty that I am a bit reluctant to screw with! My view is that what is needed is another dishwasher with a strong enough drainpump. If strong enough, i may well even have the effect of flushing the pipes!

[DManzaluni]

And I was indeed wondering about how anything is getting past the filter into the pipes to need flushing out!

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 3/18/2023 3:42 PM, DManzaluni wrote:
> It snot that the drain pump doesn't work, it is just not strong enough.
>
>

I see the problem. Snot is more difficult to pump than water.
Viscosity matters

[Ed Pawlowski]

I think the repairmen are clueless. Don't you think that DW
manufacturers tested the machines? Would they intentionally put in a
pump that does not get all the water out?

If you cannot do it yourself, get a handyman to hook up a garden hose to
the drain hose to flush it out. It is not plumbing, no codes or
inspections involved.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 18 Mar 2023 17:14:31 -0400, Ed Pawlowski

<e...@snet.xxx> wrote:

>On 3/18/2023 4:57 PM, DManzaluni wrote:
>>> Try flushing the line with full water pressure, or vacuum sucking it out
>>> to make sure some object is not plugging it, especially if there are
>>> elbows in the piping.
>>
>> Yes, I had wondered about that one! But the less competent repairmen have told me i need a plumber to do that as they aren't plumbers.
>>
>> And as to the other points, I did get an 8 year warranty that I am a bit reluctant to screw with! My view is that what is needed is another dishwasher with a strong enough drainpump.

You don't want to sacrifice the warranty, but you're willing to get
another dishwasher? Then you'll have a warrnanty on a dishwasher
you're not using!

Also, I don't think most of the suggestions affect the waranty. Others
will know but the drain pipe is not part of the DW afaik. If you
connected a smaller diameter pipe, they could reasonably think you
overloaded the pump, but a larger diameter pipe makes its life easier.

> If strong enough, i may well even have the effect of flushing the pipes!
>
>
>I think the repairmen are clueless. Don't you think that DW
>manufacturers tested the machines? Would they intentionally put in a
>pump that does not get all the water out?

Well, if they can make waterless hand cleaner, they can make drainless
dishwashers!

[trader_4]

All good questions. If all these units had that problem there would be a
whole lot of units involved. I would suspect something unique to the
installation or usage. It doesn't take much of a pump to pump out water
and lift it a few feet.

[trader_4]

On Saturday, March 18, 2023 at 5:01:16 PM UTC-4, DManzaluni wrote:
> And I was indeed wondering about how anything is getting past the filter into the pipes to need flushing out!

Grease gets past it and could build up. How long is this drain hose, how does
it run particularly in height and what does it connect to? Snaking it out would be
on my list and making sure whatever it feeds into isn't clogged and backing up to.

[DManzaluni]

The Samsung Dishwasher is to the right of an LG washing machine and the sink is to the left of that washing machine. The pipe is half inch and runs for about 6-7 feet. This set up has drained numerous GE, Maytag, Profile, Bosch dishwashers over the 25 years we have lived here. The repairman identified the problem as the manuf using a too small pump in their units nowadays. he then wrote a report saying this setup can work if we get a plumber in to replace all the pipes!

I think it is relevant that he also said that with this samsung, all dishes have to be rinsed and meticulously cleaned before putting in the dishwasher. AND he started taking photos of tiny bits of rice floating in the water.

AS IF THE FILTER ISN'T WORKING PROPERLY! Not only does it not trap this 'rice', it seems to be pushing it past the filter into the pipe!

Oh, and the outer arm nozzles are also perennially blocked. with this stuff not caught by the filter.

[Dean Hoffman]

On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 10:01:09 AM UTC-5, DManzaluni wrote:
> The Samsung Dishwasher is to the right of an LG washing machine and the sink is to the left of that washing machine. The pipe is half inch and runs for about 6-7 feet. This set up has drained numerous GE, Maytag, Profile, Bosch dishwashers over the 25 years we have lived here. The repairman identified the problem as the manuf using a too small pump in their units nowadays. he then wrote a report saying this setup can work if we get a plumber in to replace all the pipes!
>
> I think it is relevant that he also said that with this samsung, all dishes have to be rinsed and meticulously cleaned before putting in the dishwasher. AND he started taking photos of tiny bits of rice floating in the water.

Not much point in having a dishwasher if one has to do the cleaning by hand before it goes in the
dishwasher. Consumer Reports says several dishwashers they tested do a good job of washing the dishes. That would lead me to believe the problem isn't industry wide. Their report was updated in December 2022. A couple dishwashers rated 3/5 for cleaning but they weren't Samsung. It looked like most rated 4/5.
My clothes washer empties into about an 1 1/2" open pipe with a trap. There's no back pressure
against the pump other than what's in the clothes washer hose. That should be minimal.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 3/22/2023 11:01 AM, DManzaluni wrote:
> The Samsung Dishwasher is to the right of an LG washing machine and the sink is to the left of that washing machine. The pipe is half inch and runs for about 6-7 feet. This set up has drained numerous GE, Maytag, Profile, Bosch dishwashers over the 25 years we have lived here.

Seems you may have other issued if you went through at least 5 different
machines in 25 years. In three houses over 57 years I'm on the 4th one.
Of the four, 2 were working when we left.

[Dean Hoffman]

On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 10:01:09 AM UTC-5, DManzaluni wrote:

Do you have an air gap device?
<https://www.freshwatersystems.com/blogs/blog/what-is-a-dishwasher-air-gap>

[Dean Hoffman]

I replaced my first one after 35 years. I'm not sure why anymore. It was probably because I didn't want it to fail due to age. I'm too busy being retired to wash dishes by hand.

[DManzaluni]

Yes, I cant remember why the earlier ones were replaced though one elderly was replaced when my neighbor put all-new matching devices in her pied-a-terrre and I caught her throwing away a few-years-old, practically unused Profile. The Maytag was OK but it used to get too hot inside for it's blue internal fitments which all started to crack and fall to bits, leaving splines flopping all over the place. It was either replace the dishwasher o r invest in a 3d printer.

One thing which thus far hasn't been mentioned is this question of backflow. Nothing flows back INTO this DW. There is an inspection valve in the half inch pipe for looking at what is happening with that flow. Nothing untoward shows in it (including gunge).

I can't help but think the problem is with the strength of the drain pump.

[Bob F]

I can't help but think the problem is the 1/2" drain pipe. I have never
seen 1/2" drain pipe in my life. The hose on my DW is certainly a bit
large than 1/2" I.D. and goes into 1 1/2" drain pipe.

[Dean Hoffman]

I wonder what size the pump discharge is. Ace hardware should have some reducers/increasers to let the OP put on a larger hose if he wants. A few feet of low pressure hose wouldn't be that expensive.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 3/23/2023 5:12 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

>>>
>>> I can't help but think the problem is with the strength of the drain pump.
>> I can't help but think the problem is the 1/2" drain pipe. I have never
>> seen 1/2" drain pipe in my life. The hose on my DW is certainly a bit
>> large than 1/2" I.D. and goes into 1 1/2" drain pipe.
>
> I wonder what size the pump discharge is. Ace hardware should have some reducers/increasers to let the OP put on a larger hose if he wants. A few feet of low pressure hose wouldn't be that expensive.

I was wondering the same. Just looked at mine. Plastic hose from DW to
the garbage disposal is 3/4" OD so not much more than 1/2" ID.

Seems like he as going a longer distance too.

[Dean Hoffman]

I should've realized Amazon had something.
<https://www.amazon.com/Universal-Dishwasher-Drain-Hose-Replacement/dp/B09KH14RDH?th=1>

[Mark Lloyd]

[snip]

> I can't help but think the problem is the 1/2" drain pipe. I have never
> seen 1/2" drain pipe in my life. The hose on my DW is certainly a bit
> large than 1/2" I.D. and goes into 1 1/2" drain pipe.

Mine looks like 1" ID.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Each epoch has found in the Gospels what it sought to find there, and
has overlooked what it wished to overlook." Ludwig von Mises

[DManzaluni]

I did a search on something called google and it assured me that the industry standard is half inch. They listed a large number of dishwasher drain hoses, all of which were half inch along with a number of people calling themselves Master Plumbers saying they always use the industry standard half inch.

Meanwhile back on the farm, on Friday I noticed a low rumbling coming from inside the dishwasher while turned off, - along with vibration on the door so I called Samsung who said it is th drain pump trying to drain. It didn't succeed in draining ANY water. Today, the rumbling while the unit is turned off has become a loud grinding noise and the 4-light draining procedure now consists of the HEAVY light flashing all the time, sometimes along with a bell.

Samsung say they will come to inspect on Wednesday. Presumably to see if they can blame it on me (so that they dont have to replace under warranty)! It is a company called Service Quick, who seem quite good if their first Yelp review is anything to go by!

https://www.yelp.com/biz/service-quick-great-neck

[Bob F]

I hope you unplugged it in the meanwhile.

[Bob F]

The impeller in the drain pump is probably in pieces.

[DManzaluni]

> The impeller in the drain pump is probably in pieces.

That was what struck me, though I didnt know where it was. This dishwasher doesn't seem to have an impeller masticating the small pieces, which then get stuck in the outer holes in the arms. They may even be getting past the filter and blocking the pipe. But I don't know if the impeller is designed to force everything into the drain pipe or to masticate it up so that it doesnt get stuck in those holes

[DManzaluni]

> > I was wondering the same. Just looked at mine. Plastic hose from DW to
> > the garbage disposal is 3/4" OD so not much more than 1/2" ID.
> >
> > Seems like he as going a longer distance too.
> I should've realized Amazon had something.
> <https://www.amazon.com/Universal-Dishwasher-Drain-Hose-Replacement/dp/B09KH14RDH?th=1>

Yes, that was what I found in my initial searches, though they all described the size as being a half inch.

[trader_4]

That's what I thought too, dishwashers don't have a large discharge hose,
1/2" ID sounds about right. They also have to be routed around, a larger
hose would be more difficult.

[DManzaluni]

I'M afraid you just hit the nail on a thumb! Samsung just came, - only to inspect.

There's a minor backstory here. Samsung first came here last august. Some loony came and started to take pics of a BUG INFESTATION! which we dont have. Just so they could deny the warranty.

FF to now, after the retailer had been sending out inept repairers who sometimes managed to get the unit working again for a few months. Finally they stopped coming when they told me to change all that plumbing.

So i called Samsung to identify the correct size, (It is half inch). But they noticed that my new unit has a draining problem! So while spelling my name wrongly they offered to send someone out to see if it was the pump . Long story short, he took photos but was completely baffled by the pretence of a bug infestation which there obviously isn't! He said the pump has obviously gone but there is a problem first with the retailer's installer not installing an up-hose. (what you correctly call routing)

So the installer is coming to install the up-hose, then Samsung will install a new pump. THEN everyone will try to figure out why it isn't draining!

[Dean Hoffman]

Would it do any good to suggest Samsung take the whole machine back so they can inspect the whole thing? You'd get a brand new one, of course.

[DManzaluni]

Not after this unit has exhibited such astounding lack of reliability! They have been out a half dozen times already. And one particularly lousy technician explained that with this model, you have to meticulously clean (meaning scrub) off all dishes before putting them in the dishwasher! Nothing gets caught in the filter, in fact the only place it does get caught is in the outer holes in the spray arms, every time we try to use it!

In addition the cutlery is constantly falling out of the basket, jamming the arms AND basket roller wheels and nothing fits properly in is assigned spaces, meaning it holds about a half of what it should under any normal conditions. That technician lying about a bug infestation purely so that Samsung could deny the warranty would have been the last straw.

If it hadnt been the first straw!

Inspect, you say? I think the whole problem is that they couldn't care less.I'll report back if I am wrong but we have now had stinking water stagnating in our kitchen for nearly a week with no real end in sight. To me, it looks like the unit is pushing gunge PAST the filter into the drain pipes. To which the technicians say"We aren't plumbers: Get a plumber"

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 3/29/2023 6:14 PM, DManzaluni wrote:

>
> Not after this unit has exhibited such astounding lack of reliability! They have been out a half dozen times already. And one particularly lousy technician explained that with this model, you have to meticulously clean (meaning scrub) off all dishes before putting them in the dishwasher! Nothing gets caught in the filter, in fact the only place it does get caught is in the outer holes in the spray arms, every time we try to use it!
>
> In addition the cutlery is constantly falling out of the basket, jamming the arms AND basket roller wheels and nothing fits properly in is assigned spaces, meaning it holds about a half of what it should under any normal conditions. That technician lying about a bug infestation purely so that Samsung could deny the warranty would have been the last straw.
>
> If it hadnt been the first straw!
>
> Inspect, you say? I think the whole problem is that they couldn't care less.I'll report back if I am wrong but we have now had stinking water stagnating in our kitchen for nearly a week with no real end in sight. To me, it looks like the unit is pushing gunge PAST the filter into the drain pipes. To which the technicians say"We aren't plumbers: Get a plumber"

Hmm, most tell you to leave them dirty and the bits of food act like a
sand blaster and help loosen others during the wash cycle.

At this point, I'd consider cutting my losses and buy a KitchenAid.

[DManzaluni]

> At this point, I'd consider cutting my losses and buy a KitchenAid.

Yes, the salesman told us to start an RA on it but that was when Samsung started taking a bit more of an interest in figuring out what has gone wrong with this unit. They CAN'T correct the basket problem m because they dont have a proper working basket. Let's see how thy deal with the not-draining (or filter not filtering) problem.

[z38.310]

DManzaluni wrote:
>
>> At this point, I'd consider cutting my losses and buy a KitchenAid.
>
>
> Yes, the salesman told us to start an RA on it but that was when Samsung started taking a bit more of an interest in figuring out what has gone wrong with this unit. They CAN'T correct the basket problem m because they dont have a proper working basket. Let's see how thy deal with the not-draining (or filter not filtering) problem.
>

It would take me about 15 minutes to pull my dishwasher out from under the counter, wheel it out on the deck, connect to power and water, and then run a few cycles so I could see what is happening.

[trader_4]

The "up hose" or lack thereof is unlikely to be the source of the problem. You're supposed to
have a high loop to prevent water from going backwards from the sink to the dishwasher if
the sink drain backs up and water rises up. It would just increase the amount of lift that the
pump needs. I guess it might benefit in drawing the last of the water out of the hose, preventing
the last cup or so from flowing back to the dishwasher when the pump stops, but it doesn't
sound like that's your problem.

[DManzaluni]

That was what I said to the bloke and he agreed. Especially when in conjunction with a blown drain pump! Same as complaining about the pipe being only a half inch.

These are the sorts of things you complain about when you can't figure out what the real problem is.

[Ed Samson]

In my opinion, you already stated the problem in terms of your drain hose being 6-7' long. That extra water sitting in the hose is too much for the pump that is designed for a standard horizontal run of about 12". In addition, when the pump stops, the water in the vertical rise falls back and pushes all that water in your horizontal run back into the dishwasher. I think if you install a larger diameter hose there will be even more water in the hose putting more pressure on the pump and making the problem worse.

[trader_4]

If that's the case, then a high loop close to the dishwasher should solve it.
Any pump has to be able to handle lifting it up several feet, it's part of code
to have a high loop. From there it would be downhill to the drain and
certainly water will easily flow 7 feet through a 1/2" hose. I'm betting the
problem was a bad pump that finally failed.

[DManzaluni]

Thanks Ed and TraDER 4. Interesting insight where samsung is insisting on an up-hose being fitted before they will replace the drain pump.

The length of time and number of recurrences before finally failing would seem to point to the pump being at fault throughout.

[Bob F]

On 3/31/2023 10:36 AM, DManzaluni wrote:
> Thanks Ed and TraDER 4. Interesting insight where samsung is insisting on an up-hose being fitted before they will replace the drain pump.
>
> The length of time and number of recurrences before finally failing would seem to point to the pump being at fault throughout.

Not to me.

[trader_4]

On Friday, March 31, 2023 at 1:36:09 PM UTC-4, DManzaluni wrote:
> Thanks Ed and TraDER 4. Interesting insight where samsung is insisting on an up-hose being fitted before they will replace the drain pump.
>
> The length of time and number of recurrences before finally failing would seem to point to the pump being at fault throughout.

Up hose is easy, if the existing hose is long enough all you have to do is
get it up high after it leaves the dishwasher, should be as high as the top
of the sink that it's connected to, if possible, and clamp or tie it there.

[DManzaluni]

Interesting development: The most recent tech people sent out by the retailer notes a point Samsung missed. There IS an up-pipe here! It just isn't easily seen. And the warning light on HEAVY now flashes even when the unit is turned off! Leading him to report back to that retailer that this unit now needs to be exchanged.

MIND YOU, Samsung are still in theory scheduled to come tomorrow to fix it. I'll bet they wont show up. They have already prepared the groundwork for not showing up by pretending that there is no warranty any more on account of the infestation. (Yes, this is AFTER their own tech guy came around and noted that there never was any infestation!!)