Can I use a programmable thermostat with an oil furnace that circulates water?

[Buck]

We are moving into an apartment that has an oil furnace with radiators
(water).
Can I change the thermostat over to a programmable one?
I have had forced air gas heat in the past and always been very pleased
with programmable thermostats, both for $$ savings as well as comfort.

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[Ed Pawlowski]

On 8/6/2013 12:44 PM, Buck wrote:

> We are moving into an apartment that has an oil furnace with radiators
> (water). Can I change the thermostat over to a programmable one? I have
> had forced air gas heat in the past and always been very pleased
> with programmable thermostats, both for $$ savings as well as comfort.
>

Yes, you can. I've been doing it for years now. The T'stat will have
heating and cooling, but just ignore the cooling portion and wire
accordingly. Probably just two wires.

[Pete C.]

If it's just two, the thermostat will probably need to be battery
powered.

[Meanie]

On 8/6/2013 12:44 PM, Buck wrote:

> We are moving into an apartment that has an oil furnace with radiators
> (water). Can I change the thermostat over to a programmable one? I have
> had forced air gas heat in the past and always been very pleased
> with programmable thermostats, both for $$ savings as well as comfort.
>

As already stated, yes, you can.

I had programmables for my old radiant heating in my home on each floor
and again, already stated, you don't hook for cooling.

BTW, I no longer use the thermostats since I removed the radiant heating
and went forced air. I still have all three thermostats, though they are
older, they still work. You are welcomed to one or all if you want. If
you happen to live nearby (though I doubt that), we can meet for a hand
off, otherwise, I can ship and depending on ship cost, I may have to
charge. Or you can simply buy a new thermostat which may have more bells
and whistles.

You can see them here

http://www.flickr.com/photos/18223943@N06/9453068673/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/18223943@N06/9455849354/in/photostream/

[micky]

On Tue, 06 Aug 2013 16:44:02 +0000, Buck
<caedfaa9ed1216d60e...@example.com> wrote:

>We are moving into an apartment that has an oil furnace with radiators
>(water).

I've heard these are called boilers, not furnaces, though I'm not sure
I approve. Or maybe that only applies to steam heat, since the
water in a hot water system is not boiled. ????

>Can I change the thermostat over to a programmable one?
>I have had forced air gas heat in the past and always been very pleased
>with programmable thermostats, both for $$ savings as well as comfort.

I don't see why not.

If you use the exact same times of day, I think you will save a little
less than at the old house,, because the water in the radiators will
be fullly heated before the timer times out. It seems like that
should be counteracted by something that happens when it first turns
on, but I can't figure out how.

At any rate, you might make the turn down time 10 minutes earlier,
since the radiators will stay warmer for a while.

I had hot water radiator heat for two years in college. I liked it.
You know you have to bleed the radiators once in a while, right? I
forget when. Every fall??

[nestork]

Buck:

Yes, you should be able to use a programmable thermostat to replace the
typically mechanical thermostats used in apartment blocks, but I really
don't see the point in doing so.

You see, the whole idea behind being able to program your thermostat is
to save money by turning your house temperature down at night when
you're sleeping. But, in an apartment block that has ONE oil fired
hydronic boiler, there is no way to know how much heat each apartment is
using, so the heat will normally be included in the rent. You're not
going to save any money no matter how you set your thermostat.

Secondly, you only have one boiler in the building and so the thermostat
on your apartment wall WILL NOT control that boiler. Otherwise, in a 21
unit apartment block, there would be 21 thermostats all telling the
boiler to do something different. In an apartment block, the boiler
will most commonly be controlled by in indoor/outdoor reset control
which increases the boiler water temperature as the outdoor temperature
gets colder. The thermostat on your apartment wall simply controls a
zone valve. That's an little 24 VAC motorized valve somewhere on the
radiator train that goes through your apartment. So, raising your
apartment's thermostat setting simply causes that zone valve to remain
open longer to achieve a higher temperature in your one apartment.

So, it's true that you can use a programmable thermostat in an
apartment, but there is no reason I can think of to do that since the
cost of your heat will almost certainly be included in your rent.

PS:

1. Thermsotats don't use batteries. They run on 24 VAC power. It's a
simply loop; from the 120/24 VAC transformer to the thermostat terminals
to the zone valve terminals. Draw a circle and put a transformer, a
thermostat and a zone valve on that circle in any order you like, and
that's what the 24VAC wiring to the thermostat in an apartment looks
like.

2. Yes, hot water heating units are correctly called "boilers" even
though no actual boiling takes place in them. They call them boilers
even though they only heat liquid water because the responsibility for
their inspection and oversight falls to the same people in each city's,
province's or state's government that inspect, license and oversee steam
boilers.

3. Air trapped in radiators will reduce the amount of heat convected
into the room by the radiator. That's simply because the trapped air
reduces the amount of heated water in the radiator. In a multistory
building, any air trapped in the heating system's radiators will end up
in the top floor radiators. So, if you live anywhere but near the top
of a multistory building, it's seldom that you ever need to bleed the
air out of your radiators. If you live in a house or near the top of a
multistory building, you should do it if you feel that the heating
system isn't working properly cuz this is a very common heating problem.




--
nestork

[Buck]

replying to Meanie , Buck wrote:

> meanie.brat wrote:
>
> As already stated, yes, you can.
> I had programmables for my old radiant heating in my home on each floor
> and again, already stated, you don't hook for cooling.
> BTW, I no longer use the thermostats since I removed the radiant heating
> and went forced air. I still have all three thermostats, though they are
> older, they still work. You are welcomed to one or all if you want. If
> you happen to live nearby (though I doubt that), we can meet for a hand
> off, otherwise, I can ship and depending on ship cost, I may have to
> charge. Or you can simply buy a new thermostat which may have more bells
> and whistles.
> You can see them here
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/18223943@N06/9453068673/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/18223943@N06/9455849354/in/photostream/

Wow, that would be awesome if you would be able to send me one (I would
much rather reuse a perfectly good one)!! I am in West Hartford,
Connecticut.

--

[micky]

We've all made assumptions about his new apartment. I hope he will be
thoughtful enough to reply and tell us who is right.

>PS:
>
>1. Thermsotats don't use batteries.

Mine does. And although you didn't say it would be, it's not a
two-wire stat, Pete. It has at least 4 wires and controls AC and
heat. It uses one or two mercury style batteries to power the clock,
at least when the furnace is turned off at the main switch, maybe all
the time. If the setback function is not used, that is, if the day
and night temperatures are set to the same number, it doesn't need to
know the time, so if the battery is not there, it doesn't matter.

> They run on 24 VAC power. It's a
>simply loop; from the 120/24 VAC transformer to the thermostat terminals
>to the zone valve terminals. Draw a circle and put a transformer, a
>thermostat and a zone valve on that circle in any order you like, and
>that's what the 24VAC wiring to the thermostat in an apartment looks
>like.
>
>2. Yes, hot water heating units are correctly called "boilers" even
>though no actual boiling takes place in them. They call them boilers
>even though they only heat liquid water because the responsibility for
>their inspection and oversight falls to the same people in each city's,
>province's or state's government that inspect, license and oversee steam
>boilers.

Good to know. Thanks.

>3. Air trapped in radiators will reduce the amount of heat convected
>into the room by the radiator. That's simply because the trapped air
>reduces the amount of heated water in the radiator. In a multistory
>building, any air trapped in the heating system's radiators will end up
>in the top floor radiators. So, if you live anywhere but near the top
>of a multistory building, it's seldom that you ever need to bleed the
>air out of your radiators. If you live in a house or near the top of a
>multistory building, you should do it if you feel that the heating
>system isn't working properly cuz this is a very common heating problem.

We would start at the top floor, and work our way down. to the first
floor or more likely the basement, . I'm not sure any air in the
system ends up in the top floor -- I don't see why that would be --
but I was not house manager and the house manager said to do all the
floors.


http://www.familyhandyman.com/heating-cooling/furnace-repair/how-to-bleed-a-hot-water-radiator-and-clear-a-steam-radiator-vent/view-all
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_does_air_get_into_central_heating_or_radiators
http://www.uswitch.com/energy-saving/guides/how-to-bleed-a-radiator/

In the 3 years I lived there, we never had a leak but apparently it's
possible to have a water leak which causes the introduction of a lot
of new air-laden water and which can require daily bleeing. I think t
hat's uncommon, and probably won't happen to you, OP. Like I say, I
liked hot water heat. It's quieter than steam or forced air. When
we did do the bleeding once a year, it didn't take long.

[micky]

On Wed, 07 Aug 2013 02:17:52 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>
>We would start at the top floor, and work our way down. to the first
>floor or more likely the basement, . I'm not sure any air in the
>system ends up in the top floor -- I don't see why that would be --
>but I was not house manager and the house manager said to do all the
>floors.

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071212054109AAmH8PT
said to start at the lowest radiator and go eventually to the highest.

The opposite of what I said. My memory is 45 years old, so maybe we
didnt' do it that way, or maybe we were wrong, or maybe WE were right.

Right now I can't see why it matters. The radiator bleeder is only
going to bleed what is in that radiator, unless the radiator has
almost no water at all. But even then I don't see why the order
would matter. .

I'd look into it if I were you, OP.

[tra...@optonline.net]

Every programmable thermostat I've owned operated off of batteries.

[Buck]

replying to nestork , Buck wrote:

Aha - very good point that I left out. This is actually the second floor
of a house which was built as a duplex... so our 2nd floor apartment has
its own boiler in the basement for just our floor. (there are two smaller
oil boilers in the basement)

Regarding bleeding the radiators - in this case, when the system is just
for our one floor, does the order of radiator bleeding matter?

And, will I need to do this in the fall when we first turn on the heat or
do I need to wait until the system has been running for a while?
_______

-- Thank you all for your input, I really appreciate it - this whole oil
boiler heat source is interesting since I have had NO experience with it.
_______

[micky]

On Wed, 07 Aug 2013 14:44:01 +0000, Buck
<caedfaa9ed1216d60e...@example.com> wrote:

>
>
>Aha - very good point that I left out. This is actually the second floor
>of a house which was built as a duplex... so our 2nd floor apartment has
>its own boiler in the basement for just our floor. (there are two smaller
>oil boilers in the basement)
>
>Regarding bleeding the radiators - in this case, when the system is just
>for our one floor, does the order of radiator bleeding matter?

I don't see how it could. Like I say, I'm no longer sure the order
ever matters.

>
>And, will I need to do this in the fall when we first turn on the heat or
>do I need to wait until the system has been running for a while?

I think one or more of those webpages said the radiator had to be
warm, or hot. If the boiler is not running, I think nothing is there
to push more water into the radiator, or push the air out via the
bleeder. You'll open the valve and nothing will happen.

In a place where people have hot water heat, the hardware stores
probably have valve handles, but if not, there's the web. They're
little and cost under a dollar 40 years ago. One of the webpages
said that new radiators might use a 12 point socket, or a screwdriver.
IIRC, our valves had a square peg, in a tube, so I doubt a 12 point
socket would go in the tube, even though it would have 4 corners and
work on a square peg.

[micky]

On Wed, 07 Aug 2013 14:44:01 +0000, Buck
<caedfaa9ed1216d60e...@example.com> wrote:

>

>And, will I need to do this in the fall when we first turn on the heat or
>do I need to wait until the system has been running for a while?

If there's a problem, you should do it again, whenever the top of the
radiator is cold (when it should be hot.). I don't think this ever
happened in the 3 years I lived there.

It seems like all of thse are from the UK!!
http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_kw=Radiator+Key+Tool+To+Bleed+Air+Valve+on+Steam+Hot+Water+Radiators+%23A957+Valve

One has a bottle to catch the water!

This one knows that I'm in the US. (Well, ebay knows it)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRASS-RADIATOR-WATER-BLEED-BLEEDING-PLUMBING-VALVE-KEY-/280574889486?pt=UK_DIY_Materials_Plumbing_MJ&hash=item4153910e0e#shId
1 pound for the item and 3.50 pounds for shipping. Not a fortune, but
didn't the previous tenant leave a key behind in a drawer somewhere?

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/gas-oil-home-heating-furnaces/148214-cant-find-radiator-key.html

finally one in the US
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Radiator-Air-Bleed-Valve-Key-/400190057314?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d2d2fab62

[nestork]

Buck;3103434 Wrote:
>
> Aha - very good point that I left out. This is actually the second
> floor
> of a house which was built as a duplex... so our 2nd floor apartment
> has
> its own boiler in the basement for just our floor. (there are two
> smaller
> oil boilers in the basement)
>
> Regarding bleeding the radiators - in this case, when the system is
> just
> for our one floor, does the order of radiator bleeding matter?
>
> And, will I need to do this in the fall when we first turn on the heat
> or
> do I need to wait until the system has been running for a while?
>

If your duplex has two boilers, one for each floor, then you can treat
it just like a house with a single boiler. That means you will be
paying for heat, and you very well might need to bleed your radiators.

What's required with a hot water heating system is at the beginning of
each heating system, when the water circulating pump for your boiler is
about to be first turned on, then the bearing assembly and the motor
bearings of the circulating pump should be lubricated with a light
weight oil before the pump is turned on. The bearing assembly is a cone
shaped part that goes between the motor itself and the pump housing.
It's job is to get mechanical power to the pump impeller without letting
any water leak out of the pump housing. Older motors have bearings that
require oil lubrication whereas newer motors have permanently lubricated
bearings. Your landlord should be doing this at the start of each
heating season.

To bleed your radiators, you should be able to find an "air vent" at the
top of each radiator in your apartment. You bleed the radiators by just
loosening (NOT REMOVING) the screw in the air vent a little. Leave the
screw open a turn or two until water starts to leak out of the air vent.
Normally, you should be able to hear air whistling out of the air vent,
but the lower the pressure in the system, the less whistling you'll
hear. If it turns out that the air flow stops without any water coming
out, then the pressure in your heating system is insufficient to get
water to the top floor radiators in the building, and you need to tell
your landlord to add water to the system so that the water column
reaches to the top of your radiators. The pressure showing on the
pressure gauge of ANY hot water heating system should be at least 12
psig to prevent cavitation of the pump impeller. Water's pressure
gradient is 0.4333 psig per foot of elevation, so if 12 psig is showing
on the boiler pressure gauge, the water elevation above that gauge
(assuming no pressure on the water at the top) will be 27.7 feet, which
should be enough to reach from the basement to the top of your second
floor radiators.

SOME hot water heating systems will be equipped with automatic air
vents, but I hate those things because they're unreliable. If they open
to allow air out of the radiators, they COULD stick open to flood your
floor with water and cause a lot of damage to the flooring and/or
plaster damage to the ceiling below. That, however, would not be your
responsibility as tenant because you have no control over what an
automatic air vent does.




--
nestork

[Buck]

replying to nestork , Buck wrote:

_______________

Awesome on all fronts - thank you all for all of the information. I feel
confident that I now know what to do regarding both the thermostat AND
bleeding the radiators... and how to do it!

Again, I appreciate all of the information, this has been exactly what I
needed.

-- Buck

[Meanie]

On 8/7/2013 12:44 AM, Buck wrote:
> replying to Meanie , Buck wrote:
>> meanie.brat wrote:
>>
>> As already stated, yes, you can. I had programmables for my old
>> radiant heating in my home on each floor and again, already stated,
>> you don't hook for cooling. BTW, I no longer use the thermostats since
>> I removed the radiant heating and went forced air. I still have all
>> three thermostats, though they are older, they still work. You are
>> welcomed to one or all if you want. If you happen to live nearby
>> (though I doubt that), we can meet for a hand off, otherwise, I can
>> ship and depending on ship cost, I may have to charge. Or you can
>> simply buy a new thermostat which may have more bells and whistles.
>> You can see them here
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/18223943@N06/9453068673/
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/18223943@N06/9455849354/in/photostream/
>
>
> Wow, that would be awesome if you would be able to send me one (I would
> much rather reuse a perfectly good one)!! I am in West Hartford,
> Connecticut.
>

Send me your address via email and I'll get it to you.

[bob haller]

The thing about hot water heat, unlike forced air...

with forced air you turn up the thermostat and instantly hot air blows .......

with hot water heating you turn up the thermostat, the boiler comes on and heat slowly moves thru the system....

given the slow cool down and slow heat up a setback thermostat may not save you much energy....

but if you turn it down much you may spend hours shivering.......

its your choice

[nestork]

Bob Haller is correct; there are advantages and disadvantages in every
kind of heating system out there.

If you can afford it, the heating system that I believe is the best
available for a house is a "hybrid" system. That's where the run all
the ducting the same way they would for a forced air system, but,
instead of having a furnace with a heat exchanger, you have an "air
handler", which is basically just a powerful blower that blows air
through that ducting into the house. And, upstream of that air handler
you have both a coil for heating and a coil for air conditioning. Hot
water from a boiler flows through the heating coil during the winter and
freon from the central air conditioner flows through the cooling coil
during the summer. 1 hybrid system combines the climate
"controllability" of a forced air system with the 100+ year lifespan of
a cast iron boiler.

The advantage of hot water heating systems is that they lend themselves
well to "zoning", such as you would need in an apartment block, office
building or shopping center. You can direct hot water with zone valves
to go where you want, including reducing the heat to apartments or store
fronts or floors of a building that are temporarily unoccupied while
still having normal heat to those areas which are occupied. But, you
can't add air conditioning to a hot water heating system like you can to
a forced air system.

HOWEVER, for every heating system, the best way you save the MOST money
is to turn down whatever kind of thermostat you have and put on a pair
of long underwear and a sweater. Out great grandparents came from
Europe and were given free land to occupy the plains states and
provinces, and they had to endure winters with nothing more than a wood
stove that tripled as a clothes dryer and residential heating system.
And, they survived no less for wear by dressing for the cold. In my
case, I once had a tenant come to me in the winter wearing nothing more
than a pair of shorts and a pair of sandals, and telling me that he's
cold in his apartment. I nearly killed the guy with a baseball bat.




--
nestork

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
New generation 'stats with brain works with this kinda situation in
mind. That is why you tell the 'stat what kind of system you have on
initial set up menu.

[bob haller]

some hot water systems can have have a thermostat control each radiator for easy zone control.......

[nestork]

bob haller;3104204 Wrote:
> some hot water systems can have have a thermostat control each radiator
> for easy zone control.......

I think you're talking about Danfoss radiator valves.

You can use them on a radiator train, but you can't really use them for
individual room control because they work by restricting the flow of hot
water through the radiator. So, if you turn down the heat on an
upstream Danfoss radiator valve, every radiator downstream of that one
will be restricted to that temperature or less.

That is, how can you get a flow of 2 gallons per minute through a
downstream radiator when a valve upstream of it is limiting the flow to
1 gallon per minute?

I've had experience with both Danfoss valves that don't require any
power and Honeywell 24 VAC zone valves, and the Honeywell is definitely
the way to go... more expensive, but well worth it in the long run.




--
nestork

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Thursday, August 8, 2013 11:52:05 PM UTC-4, nestork wrote:
> bob haller;3104204 Wrote:
>
> > some hot water systems can have have a thermostat control each radiator
>
> > for easy zone control.......
>
>
>
> I think you're talking about Danfoss radiator valves.
>
>
>
> You can use them on a radiator train, but you can't really use them for
>
> individual room control because they work by restricting the flow of hot
>
> water through the radiator. So, if you turn down the heat on an
>
> upstream Danfoss radiator valve, every radiator downstream of that one
>
> will be restricted to that temperature or less.
>
>
>
> That is, how can you get a flow of 2 gallons per minute through a
>
> downstream radiator when a valve upstream of it is limiting the flow to
>
> 1 gallon per minute?
>
>

That's an interesting issue that I've never heard discussed before.
I even recall seeing Richard Trethway on This Old House putting one
in for a customer. But there was no discussion of what happens to the
downstream radiators. These are widely used in Europe. What do they
do? It would be easy to have a two port valve, where if the temp set
is reached, the water goes out the second port that bypasses the
radiator and sends it on it's way down the rest of the loop. But
the ones I've seen, I don't recall it being anything other than a
simple valve that blocks the flow of water. So, as you say, once
it shuts off the water, all radiators further downs stream are screwed.
So, how does this actually work?

[bud--]

Far as I know radiators are connected in parallel. Baseboard heaters are
connected in series (or series segments connected in parallel).

[tra...@optonline.net]

I would think STEAM radiators would be connected in parallel, but
hot water based ones? Why would they be connected any differently than
baseboard ones?

[nestork]

'tra...@optonline.net[_2_ Wrote:
>
> I would think STEAM radiators would be connected in parallel, but
> hot water based ones? Why would they be connected any differently than
> baseboard ones?
>

I don't know anything about steam heat.

Cast iron baseboard radiators that carry hot water will be connected in
series within each apartment. They have to be because that apartment's
thermostat controls the zone valve that allows hot water flow through
the radiator train in that suite.

The radiator trains in every apartment are connected in parallel. They
have to be so that each apartment can recieve heat independant of all
the other apartments.

How would it be if the radiators in an apartment block were all
connected in series so that all of the output from the primary pump
would go through suite 1, then Suite 2, then Suite 3, and so on until
you got to Suite 22. Suite 1 would get hot and so they'd turn their
thermostat down and that would stop the flow through the entire
building.

It's series connections within each apartment radiator train, and all
the apartment radiator trains are all connected in parallel.

In a house, _one_would_expect_ that the radiators in each loop would be
connected in series, and all the loops would be connected in parallel as
Bud says cuz it only makes sense to do it that way.

However, it's only recently that zone valves became commonplace in
houses. Until about 20 years ago, most houses simply had a gate valve
on on all but the longest radiator loop. They used gate valves instead
of globe valves because they offered less resistance to flow AND there
were no internal parts (like washers and screws) that could come out and
screw up the heating system. Those residential gate valves were called
"balancing valves", and the whole idea was to close the gate valve on
the shorter loops, thereby forcing more water flow through the longer
radiator loops. The idea was to have the same amount of water flow
through each radiator loop to provide for uniform heating throughout the
house.

PROPER balancing valves will have pressure taps on both the
upstream and downstram ends of the valve. They sell pressure gauges
that allow you to connect a pressure gauge across the balancing valve to
measure the pressure drop across it. You then open or close each
balancing valve until you have the same pressure drop across all
balancing valves, and that means there's the same hot water flow through
each balancing valve for uniform heat distribution in a house. But, as
I say, years ago the plumbing contractor would just use $4.99 gate
valves and guestimate when the flow through each loop was about the
same, and then put the new homeowner in charge of doing the fine tuning.




--
nestork

[bud--]

The radiators in my house are connected in parallel. From what I have
seen of the exposed piping in other houses, those houses were in
parallel. Most (all?) radiators I have seen have balancing valves on
them - multiple valves don't work so well if they are in series.

Radiators have a lot more thermal capacity than baseboards, and take far
longer to heat up. In a series connection, the last radiator would just
be starting to heat when the first one was hot.

[nestork]

Everything I'm talking about refers to hot water heating.

I know squat about steam heat.

In hot water heating, all radiator loops in a house or commercial
building will be connnected in parallel, and the radiators in each loop
will all be connected in series.

You achieve uniform heat distribution throughout the house when the flow
rate of hot water through each radiator loop is the same.

Since some radiator loops are shorter than others, it's common to
compensate for their lower resistant to flow by installing balancing
valves in those loops. The balancing valves can be partially closed to
pinch off flow through the shorter loops, thereby increasing flow
through the longer loops.

Balancing valves aren't needed when each radiator loop is controlled by
a zone valve, as in the case of an apartment block. Radiator loops with
zone valves maintain a comfortable temperature by having the zone valve
controlled by it's own thermostat. It's only when you have one
thermostat for multiple radiator loops that you need balancing valves to
ensure uniform heat distribution throughout the house or commercial
building.

The above is true for HOT WATER heating systems. I don't know anything
about steam heating systems.




--
nestork

[micky]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 06:31:23 -0600, bud-- <remove....@isp.com>
wrote:

Not only that, but even when the heat was up for hours, if the
radiators were in series, it's not like Xmas tree lights. The first
radiator would emit a lot more heat than the 2nd which would emit more
heat than the 3rd. I don't know numbers ,but say the water temp was
160 going into the first radiator, and 140 coming out. Then 140
going into the 2nd and 120 going out. And 120 going into the 3rd
radiator. I wouldn't expect much heat from that one, or any beyond
it.

In parallel, it would be 160 going into all of them and maybe 140
coming out. They could have a zone valve in the main pipe, before
the pipe to each radiator split off, so the zone valve controlled a
whole apartment.

The house I lived in in college had probably 15 hot-water radiators
spread over 3 floors. My apartment in Brooklyn had steam, but it
still had at least 5 radiators (the dining room radiator had been
removed for some reason, but it got enough heat from the other rooms.)

[micky]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 13:10:33 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>
>
>Not only that, but even when the heat was up for hours, if the
>radiators were in series, it's not like Xmas tree lights. The first

That is, Xmas tree lights all glow at the same brightness, either
because they are in parallel (and each bulb is designed for 110v), or
because they are in series but each light has the same voltage drop,
the sum of all of which is 110-120 volts. (If there are 24 bulbs,
each is designed for about 5 volts.)

But hot water radiators in series are not like Xmas tree lights in
series (or parallel) . For one thing, the water flow is all in one
direction. There is no alternating water flow in a hot water furnace
system, like there is AC current in your home's electrical system.
So the hottest water gets to the first radiator in a series system. .

>radiator would emit a lot more heat than the 2nd which would emit more
>heat than the 3rd. I don't know numbers ,but say the water temp was
>160 going into the first radiator, and 140 coming out. Then 140
>going into the 2nd and 120 going out. And 120 going into the 3rd
>radiator. I wouldn't expect much heat from that one, or any beyond
>it.

If two of these radiators were in the same room, it would be a little
warmer on one end of the room compared to the other. But more likely,
one radiator is in each room. The second room would not be as warm
as the first and the third would be cooler than either.

[micky]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 13:29:41 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 13:10:33 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Not only that, but even when the heat was up for hours, if the
>>radiators were in series, it's not like Xmas tree lights. The first
>
>That is, Xmas tree lights all glow at the same brightness, either
>because they are in parallel (and each bulb is designed for 110v), or
>because they are in series but each light has the same voltage drop,
>the sum of all of which is 110-120 volts. (If there are 24 bulbs,
>each is designed for about 5 volts.)
>
>But hot water radiators in series are not like Xmas tree lights in
>series (or parallel) . For one thing, the water flow is all in one
>direction. There is no alternating water flow in a hot water furnace
>system, like there is AC current in your home's electrical system.
>So the hottest water gets to the first radiator in a series system. .

One more difference. When electrical devices like light bulbs are in
series, the same amount of electricity flows through each one, so if
that is enough to light one bulb, it will light every identical bulb
to the same degree. Because the flow of electricity is what does the
work.

When hot water radiators are in series, the same amount of water flows
through each one, but it's not the flow of water that does the worlk
The water is there to transport heat, and even though the same amount
of water flows through the second and third radiator, the amount of
heat in that water is less and less, in each successive radiator.

It could be the flow of water that does the work. If a stream were
routed to 3 flour mills in series, and the water fell from 160 feet
above sea-level to 140 feet in the first one, from 140 to 120 feet in
the second one, and from 120 to 100 feet in the third one, and each
used the water wheel just as efficiiently, all three mills would get
the same amount of energy and work out of the water. Buy that's not
how hot water radiators work.

In practice, perhaps one can use hot water radiators in series. AIUI,
most people want the bedrooms a little cooler than the rest of the
house, for more comfortable sleeping. And if someone cooks a lot,
that makes heat in the kitchen. Of course they also have these
differences, and the sizes of the rooms, in mind when they put
different size radiators in different rooms.

That means they could make the 2nd radiator in series bigger than the
first, and the third bigger still. to make up for the water being less
hot. I don't know if that is done.

[bud--]

On 8/10/2013 7:12 AM, nestork wrote:
> Everything I'm talking about refers to hot water heating.
>
> I know squat about steam heat.
>
> In hot water heating, all radiator loops in a house or commercial
> building will be connnected in parallel, and the radiators in each loop
> will all be connected in series.

Series segments are used with baseboard heat. I doubt you will ever see
it for radiators.

>
> You achieve uniform heat distribution throughout the house when the flow
> rate of hot water through each radiator loop is the same.
>
> Since some radiator loops are shorter than others, it's common to
> compensate for their lower resistant to flow by installing balancing
> valves in those loops. The balancing valves can be partially closed to
> pinch off flow through the shorter loops, thereby increasing flow
> through the longer loops.

All that assumes the baseboads are exactly matched to the heat loss in
that room for the water flow rate. Differences in matching between
segments can be equalized with valves.

>
> Balancing valves aren't needed when each radiator loop is controlled by
> a zone valve, as in the case of an apartment block. Radiator loops with
> zone valves maintain a comfortable temperature by having the zone valve
> controlled by it's own thermostat. It's only when you have one
> thermostat for multiple radiator loops that you need balancing valves to
> ensure uniform heat distribution throughout the house or commercial
> building.
>
> The above is true for HOT WATER heating systems. I don't know anything
> about steam heating systems.

With steam the major heat transfer is from steam condensing to water.
The supply is steam and the return is water. Steam radiators have to be
in parallel.

[micky]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 22:42:04 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>

I've thought about this and I'm sure it's not done. And that or
keeping some rooms colder was the only way series radiators could
work. I don't think either method is used and I'm 99% sure no one
has series hot water radiators.


>

[nestork]

micky;3105771 Wrote:
>
> I've thought about this and I'm sure it's not done. And that or
> keeping some rooms colder was the only way series radiators could
> work. I don't think either method is used and I'm 99% sure no one
> has series hot water radiators.
>

The hot water radiators are plumbed in series in every apartment in
every apartment building in every city in North America. They are
plumbed in series so that when that apartment's thermostat calls for
heat, it causes the zone valve in that apartment to open and hot water
to flow through each radiator in the apartment; one after the other.

And, it's true that the temperature does diminish as the water flows
through the radiator train, but it's not all that much. In my boiler
room I have temperature sensors for both supply and return, and the
difference between the water supply temperature and the return
temperature will typically be between 10 and 20 degrees F.




--
nestork

[grumpy]

"nestork" <nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote in message
news:nestork...@diybanter.com...

>
> micky;3105771 Wrote:
>>
>> I've thought about this and I'm sure it's not done. And that or
>> keeping some rooms colder was the only way series radiators could
>> work. I don't think either method is used and I'm 99% sure no one
>> has series hot water radiators.
>>
>
> The hot water radiators are plumbed in series in every apartment in
> every apartment building in every city in North America.

Wrong! if all rediator are plumb/hooked up in series why do we have zone
valves?

[nestork]

grumpy;3107869 Wrote:
>
> Wrong! if all rediator are plumb/hooked up in series why do we have zone
>
> valves?
>

In an apartment block, normally all of the radiators in each apartment
as well as the zone valve are connected in SERIES. So, each apartment
represents one radiator "loop".

However, all of the radiator loops are connected in parallel. That way,
hot water will flow through all of the apartments whose zone valves are
open, but won't flow through any apartment whose zone valve is closed.

It's the same thing with houses. You have different radiator loops in
your house. All the radiators in each loop are connected in series, but
the loops are connected in parallel.

If you have a two story house, then typically, all of the radiators on
each floor are connected in series, but the two radiator loops are
connected in parallel.

If you don't have zone valves on each loop, then you have to have
"balancing valves" on all but the longest loop so that you can pinch off
flow through the shorter loops to force more flow through the longest
loop. Otherwise the lion's share of the hot water will always flow
through the shortest straightest loop because it offers the least
resistance to flow.

The downstream radiators in each radiator loop WILL be cooler than the
upstream radiators because of heat loss along the length of the radiator
loop.

Proper balancing valves will have ports on them where you can connect a
pressure gauge to measure the pressure drop across the balancing valve.
You open or close each balancing valve to get the same pressure drop,
and hence the same flow, through each balancing valve. You don't have
to bother with that if you have zone valves that are each controlled by
a thermostat.




--
nestork

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 8/15/2013 11:53 PM, grumpy wrote:

>> The hot water radiators are plumbed in series in every apartment in
>> every apartment building in every city in North America.
>
> Wrong! if all rediator are plumb/hooked up in series why do we have zone
> valves?
>

I think this needs clarification as you both may be right, sort of.
Each zone is a series of radiators. Often, a two story house with have
two zones, but the radiators on each zone are in series. In an apartment
building, each may have its own zone, but some older buildings were
still in series with only one thermostat for the entire building.

[bud--]

On 8/16/2013 12:29 AM, nestork wrote:
> grumpy;3107869 Wrote:
>>
>> Wrong! if all rediator are plumb/hooked up in series why do we have zone
>>
>> valves?
>>
>
> In an apartment block, normally all of the radiators in each apartment
> as well as the zone valve are connected in SERIES. So, each apartment
> represents one radiator "loop".
>
> However, all of the radiator loops are connected in parallel. That way,
> hot water will flow through all of the apartments whose zone valves are
> open, but won't flow through any apartment whose zone valve is closed.

I have no idea how apartments are connected. Are you talking about
baseboards or large radiators?

>
> It's the same thing with houses. You have different radiator loops in
> your house. All the radiators in each loop are connected in series, but
> the loops are connected in parallel.

My radiators are parallel. Every house where I where looked much the
radiators are parallel. I have never figured out a system where the
radiators are in series.

>
> If you have a two story house, then typically, all of the radiators on
> each floor are connected in series, but the two radiator loops are
> connected in parallel.

None where I have figured out how the radiators are connected.

>
> If you don't have zone valves on each loop, then you have to have
> "balancing valves" on all but the longest loop so that you can pinch off
> flow through the shorter loops to force more flow through the longest
> loop. Otherwise the lion's share of the hot water will always flow
> through the shortest straightest loop because it offers the least
> resistance to flow.

ALL the radiators I remember seeing have valves on EACH radiator. That
doesn't work if the radiators are connected in series.

>
> The downstream radiators in each radiator loop WILL be cooler than the
> upstream radiators because of heat loss along the length of the radiator
> loop.

My radiators heat from the top down. The return pipe is not particularly
hot until the radiator is hot. Connecting is series would not work. And
radiators have large thermal capacity.

Baseboards have very small thermal capacity. You can easily connect
baseboards in series.

Baseboards operate at a higher design temperature than radiators. (At
max design output, or at equal heat out, a baseboard will be hotter.)

>
> Proper balancing valves will have ports on them where you can connect a
> pressure gauge to measure the pressure drop across the balancing valve.
> You open or close each balancing valve to get the same pressure drop,
> and hence the same flow, through each balancing valve. You don't have
> to bother with that if you have zone valves that are each controlled by
> a thermostat.
>

I have never seen ports on valves on radiators.

Are you talking about radiators or baseboard heaters? It all sounds like
baseboard heaters.



There are (were?) series baseboard systems where the valve for a single
unit could regulate (proportion) between water going through the
baseboard or bypassing the baseboard. You can control the heat from a
single unit in a series loop. Can't remember - may have been a
mechanical (not electrical) thermostatically controlled valve. (But the
same thing could be done with an electrically controlled valve for a
single unit in a series loop.)

And the baseboards I have seen have a 'fin' across the top opening you
can rotate to be open or to substantially close off the convection out
the top of the baseboard. The heat output from a single unit in a series
loop can be substantially lowered.

[nestork]

Well, I guess that radiators can be connected in different ways.

In my building, they're in series in each suite, but all the suite loops
are in parallel. All my radiators are cast iron baseboard radiators.

But, I have no doubt that other people's powers of observation are equal
to mine, and if they say their radiators are in parallel, then they're
in parallel.

Both ways would work if you plumb it correctly.




--
nestork

[bud--]

On 8/16/2013 5:08 PM, nestork wrote:
>
> All my radiators are cast iron baseboard radiators.
>

Cast iron baseboards have higher heat capacity ('thermal mass') than
copper/fin baseboards, but far lower heat capacity than full size
radiators. They connect like baseboards, which is different than full
size radiators.

[kathy.e....@gmail.com]

Do you still have the thermostats? If so I would be happy to pay for postage via paypal. kathy.e.richmond at gmail.com

On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 4:28:27 PM UTC-8, SBH wrote:
> On 8/6/2013 12:44 PM, Buck wrote:
>
> > We are moving into an apartment that has an oil furnace with radiators
>
> > (water). Can I change the thermostat over to a programmable one? I have
>
> > had forced air gas heat in the past and always been very pleased
>
> > with programmable thermostats, both for $$ savings as well as comfort.

[KarenC]

replying to Meanie, KarenC wrote:
I am renting a home with oil and radiators - first time for both. Downstairs
is freezing and upstairs is a furnace - even when I turn the non-programmable
Honeywell down to 62 at night. I want to get a programmable thermostat and
someone suggest I get two - one for up and one for down. How much is that?
Does it really work?

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/can-i-use-a-programmable-thermostat-with-an-oil-furnace-that-758399-.htm

[Unquestionably Confused]

On 1/10/2017 3:44 PM, KarenC wrote:
> replying to Meanie, KarenC wrote:
> I am renting a home with oil and radiators - first time for both.
> Downstairs
> is freezing and upstairs is a furnace - even when I turn the
> non-programmable
> Honeywell down to 62 at night. I want to get a programmable thermostat and
> someone suggest I get two - one for up and one for down. How much is
> that? Does it really work?

It will only work if you have a zoned system which, it appears (since
you only have the one thermostat), you do not.

Not enough information to hazard a guess as to how much it would cost
you to create a zoned system, but certainly much more than you'd want to
spend on a rental unit.

Cheaper and MAYBE workable solution would be to get a plumber in there
to see if the system can be balanced out so you're putting more heat
into the downstairs rooms and less in the upstairs and provide the bulk
of the heat upstairs via convection.

In that scenario, I would think that you could go ahead and install a
programmable t-stat but be advised it's not going to change your
situation by itself. All it will do is ensure that the downstairs
freezes and the upstairs is hotter than hell at specific times.

[trader_4]

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 7:14:06 PM UTC-5, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> On 1/10/2017 3:44 PM, KarenC wrote:
> > replying to Meanie, KarenC wrote:
> > I am renting a home with oil and radiators - first time for both.
> > Downstairs
> > is freezing and upstairs is a furnace - even when I turn the
> > non-programmable
> > Honeywell down to 62 at night. I want to get a programmable thermostat and
> > someone suggest I get two - one for up and one for down. How much is
> > that? Does it really work?
>
> It will only work if you have a zoned system which, it appears (since
> you only have the one thermostat), you do not.

+1

You can't put a replacement thermostat where there is no thermostat
to begin with. And if upstairs is hot, downstairs is cold, a
programmable thermostat isn't going to solve it.

>
> Not enough information to hazard a guess as to how much it would cost
> you to create a zoned system, but certainly much more than you'd want to
> spend on a rental unit.
>

+1

> Cheaper and MAYBE workable solution would be to get a plumber in there
> to see if the system can be balanced out so you're putting more heat
> into the downstairs rooms and less in the upstairs and provide the bulk
> of the heat upstairs via convection.
>

+1

> In that scenario, I would think that you could go ahead and install a
> programmable t-stat but be advised it's not going to change your
> situation by itself. All it will do is ensure that the downstairs
> freezes and the upstairs is hotter than hell at specific times.

Programmable will just automatically change the set temp at the
set times.

[mako...@yahoo.com]

> > > I am renting a home with oil and radiators - first time for both.
> > > Downstairs
> > > is freezing and upstairs is a furnace - even when I turn the
> > > non-programmable
> > > Honeywell down to 62 at night.

Get some box or window fans and set them up to blow air through the radiators on the first floor where it is too cold. You can even buy fans with built in thermostats so the fan will go on only when the radiator is hot.

m