Can a skid steer be used to level a gravel road

[Ignoramus27667]

I have a gravel road that deteriorated, has huge puddles when it
rains, and the water enters the building from the side.

http://yabe.chudov.com/Enterprise-Dust-Collection-System/Enterprise-Dust-Collection-System-8975.jpg.html

The problem, I think, is that the slight grade that is there, is kind
of ruined and so the water does not go down along the road towards the
rain sewer. Instead, it puddles and some goes into my building.

Can this skid steer pictured here:

http://igor.chudov.com/misc/ebay/tmp/Takeuchi/291.JPG.html

be used to rearrange that gravel a little bit to restore the grade?

Or is it too light duty?

thanks

[Robert Neville]

Ignoramus27667 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.27667.invalid> wrote:

>Can this skid steer pictured here:
>
>http://igor.chudov.com/misc/ebay/tmp/Takeuchi/291.JPG.html
>
>be used to rearrange that gravel a little bit to restore the grade?

Depends on the skill of the operator. I've had a good Bobcat guy do a couple of
very long mountain driveways with roadbase and they turned out very well. If you
were thinking you could do the work yourself, I'd be a little concerned.

[Ignoramus27667]

I have never operated a skid steer.

i

[Steve B]

"Ignoramus27667" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.27667.invalid> wrote in message
news:zdedncwLqZIkaUvT...@giganews.com...

Call for a truck or three of gravel and spread it out.

Done.

Quickly.

Steve

[Steve B]

"Ignoramus27667" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.27667.invalid> wrote in message

news:yfmdnYVfmbtlnUrT...@giganews.com...

Were you intending to use said skid steer, or do you have an operator in
mind? If it's you, I'd advise against it. You'll dig it up really good.
Worse than now. If it is another operator, it all depends on that operator.
I think if you do get it level, you will have the same puddling problem.
Bring in fill.

Steve

[micky]

Sorry, I odn't know, but what's that blue thing? What goes down and
what goes up?

[Harry K]

On Nov 30, 7:30 pm, Ignoramus27667 <ignoramus27...@NOSPAM.

27667.invalid> wrote:
> I have a gravel road that deteriorated, has huge puddles when it
> rains, and the water enters the building from the side.
>

> http://yabe.chudov.com/Enterprise-Dust-Collection-System/Enterprise-D...

>
> The problem, I think, is that the slight grade that is there, is kind
> of ruined and so the water does not go down along the road towards the
> rain sewer. Instead, it puddles and some goes into my building.
>
> Can this skid steer pictured here:
>
> http://igor.chudov.com/misc/ebay/tmp/Takeuchi/291.JPG.html
>
> be used to rearrange that gravel a little bit to restore the grade?
>
> Or is it too light duty?
>
> thanks

With a good operator and a road that only needs regraveling? Yes. A
road in your condition with big potholes? No. What your road needs
is something to first loosen what is there down to the bottom of the
potholes, then regrade and add more gravel if needed.

If you spread more gravel over the current condition, your potholes
will be back in short order.

Harry K

[Ecnerwal]

In article <zdedncwLqZIkaUvT...@giganews.com>,

Depends on operator skill. Which probably means that if you have to ask,
have fun cleaning up after yourself (experience at being the unskilled
operator on some different machinery - where everybody starts
sometime...) Exactly how hard it is also depends on things like if the
blade is 6-way or only 4-way, and whether you happen to have a handy and
expensive rotary rake attachment (which can nearly eliminate the need
for hand raking I'll mention below.)

It's pretty much exactly not what you want in a road grader (blade
sticking out front of a short track, not supported between wheels on
long frame.) So you are fighting the normal tendency of the machine to
get the work done. I've had a guy use one to pretty good effect on road
work - but that's what he does a good part of the day, most days. You
need a good eye or a lot of fiddling with survey equipment to pick the
right high spots and how far to cut them - a grader helps you do that, a
skid-steer leaves it all up to your ability to know where the blade is
even as the machine tips this way and that.

It's a good idea to have and know how to use a manual rock rake, and to
know at what point you are better off fixing things with it, than to try
to get things all the way done with heavy equipment, when it's the wrong
heavy equipment (but presumably what you either happen to own or are
thinking of buying...) - I've seen people who should know better spend 4
hours dragging a york rake around trying (and failing) to fix things an
hour of intelligent hand raking would have fixed.

If you don't already own the skid-steer, that one (looking at the scale)
would be better attacked (if allergic to having someone with a grader
and vibratory roller [I wish the town road crew used one of those, but
they don't] fix it for you) with a rock rake, shovel, wheelbarrow, and
pick (to break up the hard stuff for shoveling and/or raking from the
high points.) Then drive your truck over it a lot, or hire someone with
a roller, preferably a vibratory, which packs the base much better than
a plain roller.

Even if you don't intend to dig much, might be a good idea to call
dig-safe before you get started, lest there be any sketchily buried
wires/cables out there.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

[Paul Drahn]

I think you should try to smooth it a bit using the bottom of the bucket
and dragging it backward. That way you will not dig into the hard base,
but fill in the low spots. You can also use that method to move the
gravel from the building side of the road back into the holes with water.

A pro can use the scoop blade and remove the hard humps in the road and
make it as smooth as the parking lot in the background, but I can't and
neither can you. So try the back pull method and see how that goes.

Paul

[Pete C.]

As others have said, it's not the ideal machine for road grading, but it
can do the job it you know how to run it. That said, a few years back I
resurfaced a deteriorated ~100' gravel driveway using a regular wheeled
S175 Bobcat. The driveway was solid enough, but it was rutted and had
some large rocks poking up where the gravel had packed down around them.

I started by breaking up the big rocks, or at least the upper problem
part of them using a hydraulic breaker on the Bobcat which worked
wonderfully. After that I had a load of 3/4" gravel delivered and
roughly distributed by the dump truck. After distributing the gravel
around a bit better using the Bobcat bucket normally, I leveled the
gravel by back bladeing with the bucket, pulling out the high spots as I
moved back. This requires a lot of paying attention and manipulating the
bucket height as you move since the machine tilts on the uneven surface
and you have to compensate for that.

It took me about 15 minutes or so to get the hang of that bucket
manipulation and the driveway still looks good today, so depending on
your skill level with the machine, it's not an impossible project. I'll
note that I did not do anything to disturb the well compacted base
beyond decapitating those few big rocks. I didn't have any drainage
issues, the driveway had a modest slope in the proper direction anyway.
You will need to more carefully look at the slope and where you can
drain water to. It may be a case where you really need to install some
drain pipe, even the basic filter fabric wrapped 4" flex stuff in order
to collect water heading towards the building and move it to a proper
drain area.

[harry]

On Dec 1, 3:30 am, Ignoramus27667 <ignoramus27...@NOSPAM.

27667.invalid> wrote:
> I have a gravel road that deteriorated, has huge puddles when it
> rains, and the water enters the building from the side.
>

> http://yabe.chudov.com/Enterprise-Dust-Collection-System/Enterprise-D...

>
> The problem, I think, is that the slight grade that is there, is kind
> of ruined and so the water does not go down along the road towards the
> rain sewer. Instead, it puddles and some goes into my building.
>
> Can this skid steer pictured here:
>
> http://igor.chudov.com/misc/ebay/tmp/Takeuchi/291.JPG.html
>
> be used to rearrange that gravel a little bit to restore the grade?
>
> Or is it too light duty?
>
> thanks

Grading/leveling is one of the hardest things to do on any 'dozer/
similar device. It's easy to make one hell of a mess.
It may well be that there is insufficient base under the road and it
is getting pushed onto the subsoil.
If this is so, if you try to grade it, you will make things a whole
lot worse.

You need to get out there with a steel bar and sledge hammer when the
weather has been wet fora while and there are puddles and bang it into
the road through a puddle.
If the ground is soft under the road, you need more aggregate, pushing
it round won't help.
You should then dig the puddles out and fill them with rocks and more
gravel on top.

It's a lot of work/expense but gravel roads need constant maintenance.

[Gunner Asch]

On Wed, 30 Nov 2011 21:30:01 -0600, Ignoramus27667
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.27667.invalid> wrote:

>

Yes it can.

Now the big question is....do you have the skill to use it?


One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

[DanG]

NO This is probably why he is having the problem. If you just raise
the exterior grade without making provision for drainage you are just
compounding the problem. I would imagine that the building has weep
holes one or two bricks below finish floor. This becomes the highest
possible point for exterior grade - everything else has to be below that.

Looking at the picture, the first thing I would do would be to clean out
and kill all the vegetation along the exterior wall. Dig down and
verify existence of weep holes. Find the finish floor elevation and
establish it somewhere on the outside so you can shoot grade in relation
to finish floor. 30 minutes with a builder's level and driving some
grade pins should determine where to send the water. I would almost
venture to say that you may be removing some material rather than
bringing any more in.

Ig, the machine is capable and would make a great outdoor fork lift,
power broom, etc. The grading results would be VERY dependent on the
operator.


___________________________________

Keep the whole world singing . . .
Dan G

[ATP]

"Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net> wrote in message
news:4ed737a3$0$29416$a826...@newsreader.readnews.com...

When you need the weight of the machine you have to do it that way, but on
final grading you can use "float mode". When you push the height control
pedal all the way down it should click in and allow the bucket to float up
and down for back grading. Hit it again and it will release.

[ATP]

"Ignoramus27667" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.27667.invalid> wrote in message
news:zdedncwLqZIkaUvT...@giganews.com...
>

Is it actually all gravel, or is it mixed with asphalt binder? You can grade
gravel with a skid steer, but bringing more gravel in and spreading it would
probably give you a better result. If you disturb the material that's there
now it will take a while for it to pack back down and you may see more
rut's, etc..
Also, an appropiate mix of gravel and fines will pack down pretty well, all
one size will not compact.

[RBM]

I agree with Robert Neville, the machine is capable, but only with a
qualified operator. Skid steers are very back heavy to compensate for
the lifting weight. Because of that it's difficult to use down pressure
to do grading or back blading. Personally I've found it much easier to
do with a compact 4WD backhoe loader.

[Pete C.]

Float mode won't do a lot to level out fresh gravel, you have to be able
to hold the blade at the desired grade high (compensating for machine
tilt) to level it out. Float mode will just apply bucket weight wherever
it is and on freshly deposited gravel which is all pretty much at the
same density it will just ride the contour scraping a bit off of both
high and low spots.

[Jim Wilkins]

"DanG" <dgri...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:jb7oki$ohg$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> On 11/30/2011 10:22 PM, Steve B wrote:
>> "Ignoramus27667"<ignoram...@NOSPAM.27667.invalid> wrote in message

>> ...

> Ig, the machine is capable and would make a great outdoor fork lift, power
> broom, etc. The grading results would be VERY dependent on the operator.

The large bucket and short wheelbase of my tractor magnify the difficulties
of grading. When the front wheel drops one inch the bucket edge drops two
which amplifies the irregularities of the surface, like the self-sustaining
washboard pattern on a dirt road. I've watched a fairly experienced Bobcat
operator struggle to overcome this.

Mine has no downforce and floats on frozen ground on skid plates so it's
fine for clearing snow or moving piles of dirt, but almost useless for
excavating and grading.

jsw

[tnik]

It's a dust collector. fans pull the dust into the hopper, and it falls
into that 55 gallon drum under it.

[dpb]

On 12/1/2011 9:44 AM, tnik wrote:
...

> It's a dust collector. fans pull the dust into the hopper, and it falls
> into that 55 gallon drum under it.

And a sizable one at that...

Guesses on fan motor hp, anyone? :)

--

[kansascats]

From the pic -- looks like you need to direct that water away from the
building also. That is another challenge. It does not seem like you
can raise only the road bed, else you will trap water against the
building. And it's not clear what is on the other side of the road.
If you get the water off the road, where does it go?

In general, you want to get the road bed built up, with ditches to
each side and a path for the water to run away from the road and
towards an area where it can runoff or harmlessly pool. I have a 1/2
mile driveway and have issues where the steepness of the road makes it
hard to direct the water off the road.

[Ignoramus19744]

On 2011-12-01, DanG <dgri...@cox.net> wrote:
> On 11/30/2011 10:22 PM, Steve B wrote:
>> "Ignoramus27667"<ignoram...@NOSPAM.27667.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:zdedncwLqZIkaUvT...@giganews.com...
>>>
>>> I have a gravel road that deteriorated, has huge puddles when it
>>> rains, and the water enters the building from the side.
>>>
>>> http://yabe.chudov.com/Enterprise-Dust-Collection-System/Enterprise-Dust-Collection-System-8975.jpg.html
>>>
>>> The problem, I think, is that the slight grade that is there, is kind
>>> of ruined and so the water does not go down along the road towards the
>>> rain sewer. Instead, it puddles and some goes into my building.
>>>
>>> Can this skid steer pictured here:
>>>
>>> http://igor.chudov.com/misc/ebay/tmp/Takeuchi/291.JPG.html
>>>
>>> be used to rearrange that gravel a little bit to restore the grade?
>>>
>>> Or is it too light duty?
>>>
>>> thanks
>>
>> Call for a truck or three of gravel and spread it out.
>>
>> Done.
>>
>> Quickly.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>
>
> NO This is probably why he is having the problem. If you just raise
> the exterior grade without making provision for drainage you are just
> compounding the problem. I would imagine that the building has weep
> holes one or two bricks below finish floor. This becomes the highest
> possible point for exterior grade - everything else has to be below that.

This is my thinking exactly, that adding stuff to the road is the
wrong solution. I think that the road needs gravel removed or moved to
the side.

> Looking at the picture, the first thing I would do would be to clean out
> and kill all the vegetation along the exterior wall. Dig down and
> verify existence of weep holes. Find the finish floor elevation and
> establish it somewhere on the outside so you can shoot grade in relation
> to finish floor. 30 minutes with a builder's level and driving some
> grade pins should determine where to send the water. I would almost
> venture to say that you may be removing some material rather than
> bringing any more in.
>
> Ig, the machine is capable and would make a great outdoor fork lift,
> power broom, etc. The grading results would be VERY dependent on the
> operator.

Thanks. I will sell it for sure, since I need money. however, my
thinking goes, I need to get some work done with it, so I can get some
use out of it and then sell.

i

[dpb]

On 12/1/2011 1:23 PM, Ignoramus19744 wrote:
> On 2011-12-01, DanG<dgri...@cox.net> wrote:
>> On 11/30/2011 10:22 PM, Steve B wrote:

...

>>> Call for a truck or three of gravel and spread it out.
>>>
>>> Done.

...

>> NO This is probably why he is having the problem. If you just raise
>> the exterior grade without making provision for drainage you are just
>> compounding the problem. I would imagine that the building has weep
>> holes one or two bricks below finish floor. This becomes the highest
>> possible point for exterior grade - everything else has to be below that.
>
> This is my thinking exactly, that adding stuff to the road is the
> wrong solution. I think that the road needs gravel removed or moved to
> the side.

...

First you have to establish as Dan says the needed grade level then
where does the water have to go to get away from the building. It looks
quite flat in general; it may well be there never was any real
consideration for drainage w/ every lot being built sequentially up to
put their runoff onto the boundary and the heck w/ the end result to
elsewhere. Is that alleyway a city easement or purely private property
might have a bearing on whose job it is to reestablish grade on it if it
isn't just access to the rear of your building for your use alone but is
trash pickup, etc., etc., etc., ...

--

[Joe]

On Nov 30, 9:30 pm, Ignoramus27667 <ignoramus27...@NOSPAM.

27667.invalid> wrote:
> I have a gravel road that deteriorated

>snip<

> Can this skid steer pictured here:
>
> http://igor.chudov.com/misc/ebay/tmp/Takeuchi/291.JPG.html
>
> be used to rearrange that gravel a little bit to restore the grade?
>
> Or is it too light duty?

Don't get the cart before the horse. Your roadway needs repair. Go
find an operator/owner with a sheepsfoot roller and get the sub-base
compacted and repaired according to the type of soil conditions you
have. You might even be so bold as to to get the light road specs from
your county building inspector department and use those as a guide.
With the time and money you will save after that your property can be
upgraded to match the nifty driveway.

Joe

[John Simpson]

"Ignoramus27667" wrote in message
news:zdedncwLqZIkaUvT...@giganews.com...

I used a York Rake on the back of a four-wheeler to smooth out a
bluestone driveway. A few passes and it was like new.

JAS

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

Iggy asked:

> Can this skid steer pictured here:
>
> http://igor.chudov.com/misc/ebay/tmp/Takeuchi/291.JPG.html
>
> be used to rearrange that gravel a little bit to restore the grade?

Ig... so far (unless I missed it) nobody has hit on the basic reason for
your problem.

Unless the gravel is bound by some cementaceous substance, re-grading the
gravel won't do a thing for your water drainage. Gravel is highly
pourous to water -- it's used in things like percolation fields and
French drains to allow water to enter without allowing larger debris to
penetrate.

Re-grading the gravel won't cure the underlying problem: And the problem
TRULY "underlies" the gravel.

Scrape ALL the gravel aside, and re-grade the earth below it. THEN
replace and smooth the gravel, and you'll be fine.

LLoyd

[Ignoramus19744]

10 hp

[Steve B]

"DanG" <dgri...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:jb7oki$ohg$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

Dan, I have reviewed your lucid response, and will now make it my own with
your permission.

It is very difficult to tell a lot from just a picture, not seeing the
thing, and not knowing your weather conditions, etc.

I think the PROPER way to fix it would be possibly to either make a lengthy
French drain with natural drainage if available, and if not, a sump pipe
with pump that will pump out water that seeps in.

If you are going to get serious about this at all, you might even consider
at some time concreting it so a hard wheeled forklift (3500# cap. variety)
could be used for loading/unloading.

Maybe after the first million. And don't count on PowerBall, I got the
winning numbers.

Steve

[Steve B]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:jb818h$hfp$1...@dont-email.me...

My experiences operating them and watching operators is about the same.
They dig too much, and the wheelbase is too short. What I did see that
impressed me was a track bobcat with a thumb/bucket boom and a blade who
made short work of an uneven area I had. I was not optimistic when he
started, but man, he kicked the job out of the park in no time. Similarly
the same machine, but using a blade to bulldoze instead of a bucket that
goes up and down with whatever the tracks run over.

Steve

Steve

[micky]

Thanks. My house is pretty dusty. I should get one of those.

[Hank]

On Nov 30, 10:30 pm, Ignoramus27667 <ignoramus27...@NOSPAM.

27667.invalid> wrote:
> I have a gravel road that deteriorated, has huge puddles when it
> rains, and the water enters the building from the side.
>

> http://yabe.chudov.com/Enterprise-Dust-Collection-System/Enterprise-D...

>
> The problem, I think, is that the slight grade that is there, is kind
> of ruined and so the water does not go down along the road towards the
> rain sewer. Instead, it puddles and some goes into my building.
>
> Can this skid steer pictured here:
>
> http://igor.chudov.com/misc/ebay/tmp/Takeuchi/291.JPG.html
>
> be used to rearrange that gravel a little bit to restore the grade?
>
> Or is it too light duty?
>
> thanks

I haven't read all the replies, but here is my take..............

First you need to clean up the side of the building and bring in dirt
to raise that part next to the building so water will be shunned away
from the building and onto the drive, then out to where it is suppose
to run to (ditch or sewer). After building up the area next to the
building, then the drive can be sloped away from the building. This
will help in future potholes. Nothing will stop potholes entirely
other than paving.

Building up the drive and not the area next to the building will only
mean more water into the building. You have to give the water a path,
that is lower than the building.

The skidster in th epic is plenty big enough to do the job you want
done.

Hank

[Ignoramus19716]

I went to the auction site to pick up the skid steer.

Turns out that the skid steer that I won, was "accidentally" sold to
someone else, and the auctioneer tried to give me another one, hoping
that I would not notice.

That another one had 4500 hours on it, whereas the one that I was
bidding on, had 2,600 hours on it.

I explained to the auctioneer that it is like marrying a 26 year old
girl, who, upon closer inspection, turns out to be 45 year old.

Not quite a minor difference!

In the end, they refunded me.

i

On 2011-12-01, Steve B <ste...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Ignoramus27667" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.27667.invalid> wrote in message

> news:zdedncwLqZIkaUvT...@giganews.com...

>>
>> I have a gravel road that deteriorated, has huge puddles when it
>> rains, and the water enters the building from the side.
>>

>> http://yabe.chudov.com/Enterprise-Dust-Collection-System/Enterprise-Dust-Collection-System-8975.jpg.html

>>
>> The problem, I think, is that the slight grade that is there, is kind
>> of ruined and so the water does not go down along the road towards the
>> rain sewer. Instead, it puddles and some goes into my building.
>>
>> Can this skid steer pictured here:
>>
>> http://igor.chudov.com/misc/ebay/tmp/Takeuchi/291.JPG.html
>>
>> be used to rearrange that gravel a little bit to restore the grade?
>>
>> Or is it too light duty?
>>
>> thanks
>

[bob haller]

> I haven't read all the replies, but here is my take..............
>
> First you need to clean up the side of the building and bring in dirt
> to raise that part next to the building so water will be shunned away
> from the building and onto the drive, then out to where it is suppose
> to run to (ditch or sewer). After building up the area next to the
> building, then the drive can be sloped away from the building. This
> will help in future potholes. Nothing will stop potholes entirely
> other than paving.
>

you dont want to raise ground level higher than the bottom of the
buildings sill or risk rotting out the buildings sill

[Gunner Asch]

On Fri, 02 Dec 2011 19:58:25 -0600, Ignoramus19716
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.19716.invalid> wrote:

>I went to the auction site to pick up the skid steer.
>
>Turns out that the skid steer that I won, was "accidentally" sold to
>someone else, and the auctioneer tried to give me another one, hoping
>that I would not notice.
>
>That another one had 4500 hours on it, whereas the one that I was
>bidding on, had 2,600 hours on it.
>
>I explained to the auctioneer that it is like marrying a 26 year old
>girl, who, upon closer inspection, turns out to be 45 year old.
>
>Not quite a minor difference!
>
>In the end, they refunded me.

How much was the original win?

>
>i
>
>On 2011-12-01, Steve B <ste...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> "Ignoramus27667" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.27667.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:zdedncwLqZIkaUvT...@giganews.com...
>>>
>>> I have a gravel road that deteriorated, has huge puddles when it
>>> rains, and the water enters the building from the side.
>>>
>>> http://yabe.chudov.com/Enterprise-Dust-Collection-System/Enterprise-Dust-Collection-System-8975.jpg.html
>>>
>>> The problem, I think, is that the slight grade that is there, is kind
>>> of ruined and so the water does not go down along the road towards the
>>> rain sewer. Instead, it puddles and some goes into my building.
>>>
>>> Can this skid steer pictured here:
>>>
>>> http://igor.chudov.com/misc/ebay/tmp/Takeuchi/291.JPG.html
>>>
>>> be used to rearrange that gravel a little bit to restore the grade?
>>>
>>> Or is it too light duty?
>>>
>>> thanks
>>
>> Call for a truck or three of gravel and spread it out.
>>
>> Done.
>>
>> Quickly.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>

[Hank]

If you look at the pic, it appears to be all masonry. There is no sill
plate.

Hank

[Ignoramus8791]

On 2011-12-03, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2011 19:58:25 -0600, Ignoramus19716
><ignoram...@NOSPAM.19716.invalid> wrote:
>
>>I went to the auction site to pick up the skid steer.
>>
>>Turns out that the skid steer that I won, was "accidentally" sold to
>>someone else, and the auctioneer tried to give me another one, hoping
>>that I would not notice.
>>
>>That another one had 4500 hours on it, whereas the one that I was
>>bidding on, had 2,600 hours on it.
>>
>>I explained to the auctioneer that it is like marrying a 26 year old
>>girl, who, upon closer inspection, turns out to be 45 year old.
>>
>>Not quite a minor difference!
>>
>>In the end, they refunded me.
>
> How much was the original win?

$13,500

[DanG]

Brick and block building, Bob, which may have some wood framing in the
office area. There should be weep holes in the exterior brick, one
course lower than finish floor to allow moisture out of the wall.
Exterior grade should begin at or below the bottom of the weeps and drop
1/2" per foot for the first 10' according to code. This is often not
done - I don't know why as it should be. Ig needs to get the water away
from the building whether it goes to a drywell, an evaporation detention
pond, or pipes to daylight or storm. The cheap things to do are to
arrange surface drainage away from the building.

--

[Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)]

On Sat, 03 Dec 2011 06:13:14 -0600, Ignoramus8791
<ignora...@NOSPAM.8791.invalid> wrote:

>On 2011-12-03, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 02 Dec 2011 19:58:25 -0600, Ignoramus19716
>><ignoram...@NOSPAM.19716.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>I went to the auction site to pick up the skid steer.
>>>
>>>Turns out that the skid steer that I won, was "accidentally" sold to
>>>someone else, and the auctioneer tried to give me another one, hoping
>>>that I would not notice.
>>>
>>>That another one had 4500 hours on it, whereas the one that I was
>>>bidding on, had 2,600 hours on it.
>>>
>>>I explained to the auctioneer that it is like marrying a 26 year old
>>>girl, who, upon closer inspection, turns out to be 45 year old.
>>>
>>>Not quite a minor difference!
>>>
>>>In the end, they refunded me.
>>
>> How much was the original win?
>
>$13,500

Okay, he refunded the bid - And he paid you how much for your lost
time and effort, and the gas and vehicle expenses to get your little
trailer hitched up and come pick it up, only to find out it was
"accidentally" (BullF***ingS***) sold to someone else?

Not to mention the opportunity cost of the other bids and buys you
didn't make elsewhere because you thought you had that one locked up.

That's not a little Oopsie you can easily dismiss. You'd be well
within your rights to shout to the heavens and literally go after the
guy's balls - he's got state licenses, professional association
memberships, and Auctioneer's Surety Bonds you can go after...

In that business you don't "have accidents". You bid $13,500, and
someone probably walked up to him after the auction and made a better
offer to drive it away today, and he (or an employee) did it. I want
to know names, so I never go anywhere within three states of this
outfit.

You would be well within your rights to make him cough up the goods as
represented, Period. Or a significant amount in damages to cover your
losses in this transaction.

And please don't tell me you signed a full release to get the refund.

--<< Bruce >>--

[Gunner Asch]

On Sat, 03 Dec 2011 06:13:14 -0600, Ignoramus8791
<ignora...@NOSPAM.8791.invalid> wrote:

>On 2011-12-03, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 02 Dec 2011 19:58:25 -0600, Ignoramus19716
>><ignoram...@NOSPAM.19716.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>I went to the auction site to pick up the skid steer.
>>>
>>>Turns out that the skid steer that I won, was "accidentally" sold to
>>>someone else, and the auctioneer tried to give me another one, hoping
>>>that I would not notice.
>>>
>>>That another one had 4500 hours on it, whereas the one that I was
>>>bidding on, had 2,600 hours on it.
>>>
>>>I explained to the auctioneer that it is like marrying a 26 year old
>>>girl, who, upon closer inspection, turns out to be 45 year old.
>>>
>>>Not quite a minor difference!
>>>
>>>In the end, they refunded me.
>>
>> How much was the original win?
>
>$13,500

Good price!

[Ignoramus8791]

On 2011-12-03, Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable) <bruceNOSP...@gmail.INVALID> wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Dec 2011 06:13:14 -0600, Ignoramus8791
><ignora...@NOSPAM.8791.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 2011-12-03, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 02 Dec 2011 19:58:25 -0600, Ignoramus19716
>>><ignoram...@NOSPAM.19716.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I went to the auction site to pick up the skid steer.
>>>>
>>>>Turns out that the skid steer that I won, was "accidentally" sold to
>>>>someone else, and the auctioneer tried to give me another one, hoping
>>>>that I would not notice.
>>>>
>>>>That another one had 4500 hours on it, whereas the one that I was
>>>>bidding on, had 2,600 hours on it.
>>>>
>>>>I explained to the auctioneer that it is like marrying a 26 year old
>>>>girl, who, upon closer inspection, turns out to be 45 year old.
>>>>
>>>>Not quite a minor difference!
>>>>
>>>>In the end, they refunded me.
>>>
>>> How much was the original win?
>>
>>$13,500
>
> Okay, he refunded the bid - And he paid you how much for your lost
> time and effort, and the gas and vehicle expenses to get your little
> trailer hitched up and come pick it up, only to find out it was
> "accidentally" (BullF***ingS***) sold to someone else?

He paid me nothing for that, but I aM ok WITH IT.

> Not to mention the opportunity cost of the other bids and buys you
> didn't make elsewhere because you thought you had that one locked up.
>
> That's not a little Oopsie you can easily dismiss. You'd be well
> within your rights to shout to the heavens and literally go after the
> guy's balls - he's got state licenses, professional association
> memberships, and Auctioneer's Surety Bonds you can go after...

I think that it was an honest fuck up, at least up to the point when I
showed up. And when I did show up, possibly, he tried to cover up his
mistake.

> In that business you don't "have accidents". You bid $13,500, and
> someone probably walked up to him after the auction and made a better
> offer to drive it away today, and he (or an employee) did it. I want
> to know names, so I never go anywhere within three states of this
> outfit.

I am not, yet, ready to decide that it was a deliberate deception from
the beginning.

> You would be well within your rights to make him cough up the goods as
> represented, Period. Or a significant amount in damages to cover your
> losses in this transaction.

It is very hard to get damages for a failed transaction of this
sort. Possible, but under special circumstances such as when "time is
of the essence".

> And please don't tell me you signed a full release to get the refund.

I just got a refund.

i

[Steve B]

> Okay, he refunded the bid - And he paid you how much for your lost
> time and effort, and the gas and vehicle expenses to get your little
> trailer hitched up and come pick it up, only to find out it was
> "accidentally" (BullF***ingS***) sold to someone else?
>
> Not to mention the opportunity cost of the other bids and buys you
> didn't make elsewhere because you thought you had that one locked up.
>
> That's not a little Oopsie you can easily dismiss. You'd be well
> within your rights to shout to the heavens and literally go after the
> guy's balls - he's got state licenses, professional association
> memberships, and Auctioneer's Surety Bonds you can go after...
>
> In that business you don't "have accidents". You bid $13,500, and
> someone probably walked up to him after the auction and made a better
> offer to drive it away today, and he (or an employee) did it. I want
> to know names, so I never go anywhere within three states of this
> outfit.
>
> You would be well within your rights to make him cough up the goods as
> represented, Period. Or a significant amount in damages to cover your
> losses in this transaction.
>
> And please don't tell me you signed a full release to get the refund.
>
> --<< Bruce >>--

I used to sell new cars. Two guys, call them Bob and Ray. Ray gets a "new"
used pickup from the used car lot portion of our dealership. Trades in his
used pickup. Bob buys Ray's old pickup from the lot. A couple of weeks
later, Bob and Ray meet. Doesn't matter how. Bob comments on how he likes
his truck, and how he got a good deal, and how it was low mileage. Ray
tells Bob that he was the guy who traded it in, and it wasn't the mileage on
the odometer when he traded it in. They contact the State. Bob and Ray get
all their money back. Debt cancelled. They get to keep the trucks. State
fines used car lot a hefty amount, and puts them on the watch closely list
for many years.

What happened to you was probably illegal, Ig. How much of a deal you want
to make is up to you, and how much of a deal you can ACTUALLY make depends
on the laws of your state. And who you want to piss off comes into play,
too, as some car lots have reposessors and collectors on retainer, known for
their "negotiating" skills.

I'd investigate it further. The $13,500 could have possibly bought you
something else that day that could have turned out profitable.

Steve

[Steve B]

"Ignoramus8791" <ignora...@NOSPAM.8791.invalid> wrote

> I just got a refund.
>
> i

How convenient for the auction house. No paper trail. Ends with your
refund, which has to be explained to no one. No complaint filed. Case
closed, and money deposited from actual buyer.

Steve

[Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)]

And they potentially made a lot more selling the same item to someone
else, and Iggy lets them off for free. Great day for the auctioneer
if they can pull stuff like that off every day with no consequences.

Iggy potentially lost thousands on the deal. He could have used it
for his paving project, put in a little effort into cleaning it up,
then resold it for a serious profit - that will never happen.

--<< Bruce >>--

[Hank]

I would at the very least file a complaint with the BBB. Also check
BBB to see if any other complaints were filed.

Hank

[aemeijers]

BBB is right up there with chamber of commerce as a useless historical
artifact.

--
aem sends...

[Steve B]

"aemeijers" <aeme...@att.net> wrote in message
news:gKCdndsTnLGlVUfT...@giganews.com...

Gotta love it. You call them, and they say, "I'm sorry. We cannot comment
on any specific business."

[Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)]

The BBB is a scam run against both sides - the public AND the
businessman. When the business you ask about isn't a Member there
are inevitably "Uncleared complaints against them" - they need to pay
for a membership to respond and clear the complaints.

And the higher membership fee they pay, the better an overall rating
they get. And clearing the complaints is a joke - the company decides
when they're done dealing with you and clears the complaint.

--<< Bruce >>--

[The Daring Dufas]

On 12/4/2011 1:02 AM, Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable) wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Dec 2011 18:07:04 -0800, "Steve B"<ste...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

***** clip a bit of wasted bandwidth ********

> The BBB is a scam run against both sides - the public AND the
> businessman. When the business you ask about isn't a Member there
> are inevitably "Uncleared complaints against them" - they need to pay
> for a membership to respond and clear the complaints.
>
> And the higher membership fee they pay, the better an overall rating
> they get. And clearing the complaints is a joke - the company decides
> when they're done dealing with you and clears the complaint.
>
> --<< Bruce>>--

I'd like to organize a "Better Customers Bureau" that would report on
people who refuse to pay business for products and services. It would be
a real help to small businesses and contractors who always
come across brain damaged, dishonest or insane customers. I've run
across some real wing doozies of customers over several decades in the
service and installation business and one ploy is to ask them who they
have dealt with before. I can call the other contractor to ask them if
they had any problems with a customer. The BCB could be a lot of fun.
^_^

TDD

[dpb]

On 12/3/2011 7:07 PM, aemeijers wrote:
...

> ... with chamber of commerce as a useless historical
> artifact.

Mayhaps your local CofC is inactive or of minimal value; they certainly
aren't as a general rule. Around here they are very active and do good
work in development, etc., etc., etc., ...

--

[Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)]

It's a wonderful idea, but you'd better have lawyers involved on your
side as you develop the systems and terms, or those "poor, aggrieved
souls" AKA the insane customers will take you to the cleaners for
slander and libel.

There's Dun & Bradstreet for companies buying from companies, but
nothing for homeowners and individuals.

Even D&B isn't a panacea - Dad used to sell trinkets to stores, and
one notable Souvenir Shop was a beautiful customer, nice big orders
every month or two like clockwork - as long as everything went over
their threshold COD ONLY, the owner was an Old Vegas crook. And all
the suppliers in the industry knew it.

The owner would beg and cajole to get on Credit and set up an
account, and some poor schmuck at a new supplier wouldn't listen to
the experienced Salesman who had seen it happen a dozen times before,
and issue them a credit line. They'd put in one or two regular orders
to test the waters, then the Owner would grab the list of stuff that
was selling and place a huge order for a year or two worth of
merchandise - and you'd never see a dime out of them ever again.

All the managers of the store could do was sigh, shake their heads,
and start looking for another supplier who would sell to them COD when
the merchandise ran out.

--<< Bruce >>--

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sun, 04 Dec 2011 04:54:46 -0600, The Daring Dufas
<the-dari...@stinky.net> wrote:

How about a credit check? That may not catch all the kooks but it's a good
way to catch the deadbeats and the two are somewhat correlated.

[The Daring Dufas]

That can be costly unless you do like a lot of rental companies who
charge an application fee to pay for the credit check. As you may know,
credit bureaus are notorious for being inaccurate. If I were to setup
a BCB site, it would be accessible to all in a limited way for
nonmembers to post a response in a moderated forum. For protection from
crazy people, the site would be hosted offshore with the owner/operator
hidden from weasel lawyers. No private personal information on customers
would be allowed to be posted, just name and address for member
businesses to check. Because of identity theft, no DOB, Social Security
numbers for crooked customers would be posted even for members to check.
All there would be would a listing saying "Mr. Jones on xx date refuse
to pay for work done by me at this address. Before and after pictures
could be posted by both parties with Mr. Jones posting to the moderated
forum. It would take some thought and work to set it up but it could be
a invaluable service to small business that could afford a small
membership fee to have access to the database. I did some work for a
real nut job some years back who complained constantly that something
was wrong with the equipment. It turned out that all the problems were
cause by one of his employees who was not properly operating the system.
He refused to admit it was his employee all along and continued to
pester me until I finally had to get my attorney to write him a cease
and desist letter. I later got a call from another company he called to
work on his gear and I explained what a nut job the guy was and the
other contractor decided he couldn't help the guy. I believe everyone in
the business found out about him and he became untouchable. A BCB would
have helped protect a lot of companies from that nut job. ^_^

TDD

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sun, 04 Dec 2011 11:54:34 -0600, The Daring Dufas

True enough (just paid $50 for one). How costly are no-pays and kooks?

>As you may know,
>credit bureaus are notorious for being inaccurate.

That's not the contractor/merchant's problem.

>If I were to setup
>a BCB site, it would be accessible to all in a limited way for
>nonmembers to post a response in a moderated forum. For protection from
>crazy people, the site would be hosted offshore with the owner/operator
>hidden from weasel lawyers. No private personal information on customers
>would be allowed to be posted, just name and address for member
>businesses to check. Because of identity theft, no DOB, Social Security
>numbers for crooked customers would be posted even for members to check.

Without more information, it's hard to track people. As you point out, credit
bureaus get away with murder. I doesn't seem impossible to clone that model.
Maybe credit bureaus are missing a big opportunity (say $5 per kook check).

>All there would be would a listing saying "Mr. Jones on xx date refuse
>to pay for work done by me at this address. Before and after pictures
>could be posted by both parties with Mr. Jones posting to the moderated
>forum. It would take some thought and work to set it up but it could be
>a invaluable service to small business that could afford a small
>membership fee to have access to the database. I did some work for a
>real nut job some years back who complained constantly that something
>was wrong with the equipment. It turned out that all the problems were
>cause by one of his employees who was not properly operating the system.
>He refused to admit it was his employee all along and continued to
>pester me until I finally had to get my attorney to write him a cease
>and desist letter. I later got a call from another company he called to
>work on his gear and I explained what a nut job the guy was and the
>other contractor decided he couldn't help the guy. I believe everyone in
>the business found out about him and he became untouchable. A BCB would
>have helped protect a lot of companies from that nut job. ^_^
>

Sounds like the start of "Dufas' List". ;-)

[The Daring Dufas]

Dufas is actually a proper surname, the pejorative term is "doofus". ^_^

http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Dufas-family-history-sct.ashx

TDD

[Steve B]

"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@stinky.net> wrote

> I'd like to organize a "Better Customers Bureau" that would report on
> people who refuse to pay business for products and services. It would be a
> real help to small businesses and contractors who always
> come across brain damaged, dishonest or insane customers. I've run across
> some real wing doozies of customers over several decades in the
> service and installation business and one ploy is to ask them who they
> have dealt with before. I can call the other contractor to ask them if
> they had any problems with a customer. The BCB could be a lot of fun.
> ^_^
>
> TDD

What about Angie's list?

And now you mention it, how about bandwidth police?

Steve

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

What he's proposing is sorta the opposite of Angie's List (which is why I
suggested "Dufas' List").

>And now you mention it, how about bandwidth police?

Nah, we have enough Netkops around here.

[The Daring Dufas]

Are you volunteering? Got your gun and badge right here. ^_^

TDD

[Stormin Mormon]

I'd love to see that. However, it sure would be hard to filter out the sour
grapes, and liars and people making false reports. Remember the gasoline in
the back yard guy who had trouble with complainers?


"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@stinky.net> wrote in message
news:jbgc4q$8pn$1...@dont-email.me...

[Stormin Mormon]

Down with bottom posting!

"Steve B" <ste...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:nbVCq.173236$_E6.1...@news.usenetserver.com...

>
> "The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@stinky.net> wrote
>
>> I'd like to organize a "Better Customers Bureau" that would report on
>> people who refuse to pay business for products and services. It would be

>> a ^_^

[Steve B]

"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YMWCq.41178$656....@news.usenetserver.com...

> I'd love to see that. However, it sure would be hard to filter out the
> sour grapes, and liars and people making false reports. Remember the
> gasoline in the back yard guy who had trouble with complainers?
>

Now, if someone wanted to start an ANTI-TOP POSTING BUREAU, where can I send
money?

Steve

[Steve B]

"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:zaXCq.55740$dk.2...@news.usenetserver.com...

Discussing net protocol with a top poster is like discussing sex with a
three year old.

I rest my case.

Steve

[The Daring Dufas]

Send a DATA bomb, perhaps that will work? ^_^

TDD

[The Daring Dufas]

Pervert! Either way..... ^_^

TDD

[Steve B]

"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@stinky.net> wrote in message

news:jbjiv5$7u1$2...@dont-email.me...

I just got rid of him in the simplest way. Interested reading about the zip
bomb. I had never heard of that before.

Steve

[Steve B]

"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@stinky.net> wrote in message
news:jbjj11$7u1$3...@dont-email.me...

Always remember, nothing was ever proven in a court of law ...............

[The Daring Dufas]

I have problems with filthy minded people who are always looking for sin
whether it exists or not. Half my relatives are Southern Baptist
which gives me the right to tease them because they're family. I have
a problem with Southern Baptist women because they're so easily offended
by the simplest of things. I can say "Hello" and they're offended
because "Hell" is a swear word and "O" is a sexual reference. A while
back I was checking out a computer system for a customer and found a
"Trojan Horse Virus" infecting a desktop computer, thinking nothing of
it I told the secretary her computer had a trojan on it and I'd have to
clean it off. It turned out she was Southern Baptist so she ran to her
boss and complained that I was making vulgar sexual remarks to her. If
I tell one of her ilk that I love little kids, she will run to her boss
and complain that I'm talking about sex with children. They really freak
out when I tell them they're great with barbeque sauce and the little
toes are the crunchy part. If you go looking for sin hard enough, you'll
find it whether it exists or not. My Southern Baptist cousins are so
entertaining. ^_^

TDD

[rangerssuck]

On Dec 5, 7:37 pm, The Daring Dufas <the-daring-du...@stinky.net>
wrote:

> On 12/5/2011 5:57 PM, Steve B wrote:
>
>
>
>
>

> > "The Daring Dufas"<the-daring-du...@stinky.net>  wrote in message

> >news:jbjj11$7u1$3...@dont-email.me...
> >> On 12/5/2011 5:06 PM, Steve B wrote:

> >>> "Stormin Mormon"<cayoung6...@hotmail.com>   wrote in message

> >>>news:zaXCq.55740$dk.2...@news.usenetserver.com...
> >>>> Down with bottom posting!
>
> >>>> "Steve B"<ste...@gmail.com>   wrote in message
> >>>>news:nbVCq.173236$_E6.1...@news.usenetserver.com...
>

> >>>>> "The Daring Dufas"<the-daring-du...@stinky.net>   wrote

Yeah, then there was the (otherwise nice enough) woman in my shop who
was going to start a discrimination suit because we manufactured a
"master/slave" alarm panel... Idiocy is where you find it.

[Tony Miklos]

On 12/5/2011 7:37 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
>
> I have problems with filthy minded people who are always looking for sin
> whether it exists or not. Half my relatives are Southern Baptist
> which gives me the right to tease them because they're family. I have
> a problem with Southern Baptist women because they're so easily offended
> by the simplest of things. I can say "Hello" and they're offended
> because "Hell" is a swear word and "O" is a sexual reference. A while
> back I was checking out a computer system for a customer and found a
> "Trojan Horse Virus" infecting a desktop computer, thinking nothing of
> it I told the secretary her computer had a trojan on it and I'd have to
> clean it off. It turned out she was Southern Baptist so she ran to her
> boss and complained that I was making vulgar sexual remarks to her. If
> I tell one of her ilk that I love little kids, she will run to her boss
> and complain that I'm talking about sex with children. They really freak
> out when I tell them they're great with barbeque sauce and the little
> toes are the crunchy part. If you go looking for sin hard enough, you'll
> find it whether it exists or not. My Southern Baptist cousins are so
> entertaining. ^_^
>
> TDD

I deal with both extremes since I moved to the middle of the southern
baptist / Appalachian area here in TN. I'm in the county most known to
the world for moonshine and cocke fights although most of the population
is southern baptist. Ol' "Popcorn" Sutton offed himself instead of
going to jail. Now there's an interesting you tube video interview...
Popcorn Sutton. WARNING! Very Explicit Content! (Popcorn is a LOT
younger than he looks.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b5mW2QF6H4

[The Daring Dufas]

I actually know some folks like that since I grew up in the mountains of
Northeast Alabamastan. Old Popcorn, RIP. ^_^

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFON_UpdSHQ

TDD