Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
Elmo
need 150 feet.
Nobody told me (so I'm saying it here), one really needs about 150 feet if
they want the driveway gate to be open by the time the moving mass of metal
(i.e., automobile) reaches the gate. Lesson learned.
Researching the web, it appears GTO sells three wands:
http://www.gtopro.com/access_controls.htm
- FM139 = 50 feet wired (about $180)
- FM140 = 100 feet wired (about $200)
- FM141 = 150 feet wired (about $225)
The instructions say you can not splice additional lengths
(http://www.gtopro.com/PDF/Flyers/Gate-Opener-Access-Control-FM139-vehicle-sensor.pdf
)
Calling www.gtopro.com technical support at 800-543-4283, they say there is
no difference between the wands or the wire other than the length BUT if I
splice in a wire, it won't work.
The technical support guy was very helpful. He said the reason it won't
work is that the "sensitivity of the magnetic field" changes with the
splice.
I don't understand why (if I make a good splice) but maybe there is
something about magnetic fields I don't understand that you can elucidate
for me? The wire is 5 conductor 16awg multi-strand shielded.
What is it about a splice that destroys the magnetic field?
Bill
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage
Then other than that, the wire length might have a certain *total*
resistance or *total* capacitance and this is adjusted for at the wand or at
the adjustment for the wand.
This principal might be along the lines of adjusting a CB antenna like it
says here (length of the antenna matters)...
http://www.wearecb.com/support/setcbantenna.htm
"Elmo" wrote in message
William Sommerwerck
> reason it won't work is that the "sensitivity of the magnetic
> field" changes with the splice.
On the face of it, this is a pile of manure.
It's possible (as someone else said) that the system might be calibrated for
specific cable lengths, and it might be difficult to splice the wire in such
a way as to maintain the desired electrical characteristics. But an amateur
antenna system has at least two "splices" in it -- one at the transmitter,
the other at the antenna -- and it works fine.
If the folks running the company are "nice" people, they should take back
the too-short cable -- even though it's been used -- and give you full
credit towards a cable of the right length.
GregS
First thing, how do you get IN ????
Second thing, try an additional 5-10 feet and see if there
is something other than ??
Whats the connector look like ??
greg
DerbyDad03
Address.invalid> wrote:
> I bought too short of a driveway-gate exit wand (GTO FM139 = 50 feet); I
> need 150 feet.
>
> Nobody told me (so I'm saying it here), one really needs about 150 feet if
> they want the driveway gate to be open by the time the moving mass of metal
> (i.e., automobile) reaches the gate. Lesson learned.
>
> Researching the web, it appears GTO sells three wands:http://www.gtopro.com/access_controls.htm
> - FM139 = 50 feet wired (about $180)
> - FM140 = 100 feet wired (about $200)
> - FM141 = 150 feet wired (about $225)
>
> The instructions say you can not splice additional lengths
> )
>
> Callingwww.gtopro.comtechnical support at 800-543-4283, they say there is
> no difference between the wands or the wire other than the length BUT if I
> splice in a wire, it won't work.
>
> The technical support guy was very helpful. He said the reason it won't
> work is that the "sensitivity of the magnetic field" changes with the
> splice.
>
> I don't understand why (if I make a good splice) but maybe there is
> something about magnetic fields I don't understand that you can elucidate
> for me? The wire is 5 conductor 16awg multi-strand shielded.
>
> What is it about a splice that destroys the magnetic field?
Add the required number/severity of speed bumps to force the drivers
to slow down to whatever speed works for the 50 foot wand.
George
They didn't say they couldn't get any but that the gate didn't open fast
enough for the speed they were driving. Obviously one solution might be
to go a little slower.
GregS
This is for exit only. I asked how do they get in, thinking any decent gate
will have a remote control. Go through same procedure as to get
in, push button. !!!! That RF is a usefull thing !!! Remote control !!!
A magnetic sensor is usefull to prevent closing the gate and hitting car.
greg
mm
<dcdraf...@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:
>
>What is it about a splice that destroys the magnetic field?
I know that when my girlfriend got spliced, it destroyed our magnetic
field.
Seriously, I'm a 3 or 4 out of 10 on electronics knowledge, not even a
skilled amateur, but this reminds me of "No user-serviceable parts
inside". It depends on who the user is. I even saw that on a Black &
Decker tire pump, on the plug for the cigarette lighter. I drilled
out the rivets, replaced a burned-out fuse, and it's worked fine for
10 years now.
The product you write about seems intended for corporations and rich
people. I'll bet it's a way to squeeze another 150 dollars out of
you.
(They won't exchange what you bought for the longer one because you
buried yours already and it's dirty?)
Oh, yeah, the technician might even believe what he told you even if
I'm right.
It would be easier to do a nice splice if you offset the individual
splices an inch or so from each other.
To the other people here, any reason he can't use one sheet of
alimumim foil to shield everything all at once.
If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape, I think it's
called, is even better than heat-shrink tubing and doesn't slip on, it
wraps on. Stretch it to 2 or 3 times its length, then wrap while
streched and within a few days it merges into one big probably
waterproof blob. Hard to find though.
ne...@jecarter.us
wrote:
Could be like the gate at a corporate site I occasionally visit - for
entry, you speak to a guard and show ID via a TV camera and the guard
opens the gate. A device like the one in this thread is used to allow
people to exit the gate.
John
Elmo
> First thing, how do you get IN ????
> Whats the connector look like ??
There is a keypad to get in, and a remote.
Both work fine for the owner of the house, but not for guests.
Guests enter via the outside-the-gate intercom keypad.
But the gate closes 25 seconds after being opened.
When guests leave, the exit wand triggers the gate to open.
Elmo
> Whats the connector look like ??
There is no connector. Each of the four 16 AWG multi-stranded wires arrives
from the factory stripped of about 1/4 inch at the ends and tinned solid.
We just screw those four wires plus the shield into connections on the gate
opener motherboard.
Elmo
> That RF is a usefull thing !!! Remote control !!!
Guests won't have a remote control nor will they have the keypad
combination.
Elmo
> Could be like the gate at a corporate site I occasionally visit - for
> entry, you speak to a guard and show ID via a TV camera and the guard
> opens the gate. A device like the one in this thread is used to allow
> people to exit the gate.
Yes. The "typical" gate setup is:
1a. Owner approaches gate and flips remote control to get in.
1b. Utility truck approaches gate and pushed their logged 4-digit combo on
the digital keypad to get in (whether or not someone is home)
1c. Guest arrives and has to press the intercom button and can only be let
in if someone inside the house provides them access. Guest then pushes a
button on the keypad to open the gate.
2. In all cases above, the gate closes 25 seconds after it was opened.
3. In all cases above, when the owner/utility/guest leaves, the gate
automatically opens for them via the exit want magnetic field disturbance
sensor.
At least that's how my gate is set up. Some are set up to open via
cellphone but mine isn't fancy.
Jeff Liebermann
<dcdraf...@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:
>I bought too short of a driveway-gate exit wand (GTO FM139 = 50 feet); I
>need 150 feet.
>
>Nobody told me (so I'm saying it here), one really needs about 150 feet if
>they want the driveway gate to be open by the time the moving mass of metal
>(i.e., automobile) reaches the gate. Lesson learned.
I suppose it's too late to exchange the exit wand.
>Researching the web, it appears GTO sells three wands:
>http://www.gtopro.com/access_controls.htm
>- FM139 = 50 feet wired (about $180)
>- FM140 = 100 feet wired (about $200)
>- FM141 = 150 feet wired (about $225)
>
>The instructions say you can not splice additional lengths
>(http://www.gtopro.com/PDF/Flyers/Gate-Opener-Access-Control-FM139-vehicle-sensor.pdf
Yep. For good reason. The contraption belches RF somewhere between
20Khz and 150Khz and is similar to the vehicle detectors used for
traffic signal control. The mass of the vehicle detunes the coil
resulting in an increase in oscillator gate(?) current. In other
words, the whole mess, including the cable, is part of a resonant
circuit.
If you were able to rip apart the tube, you'll probably find an iron
core, with a zillion turns of wires wrapped around it. There will
also be a tuning capacitor, which is the key problem. Each length of
cable will have a different tuning capacitor, where the difference in
lengths is roughly equal to the difference in capacitance. These
differences are compensated by the internal tuning cap. If you're
lucky, they may have jumpers inside to select different cable lengths.
If the designer is really cool, the capacitor might be inside the
controller.
You might be able to get some clues if there are any patent numbers of
FCC ID numbers on the devices. I couldn't find anything registered to
"Gates That Open".
>Calling www.gtopro.com technical support at 800-543-4283, they say there is
>no difference between the wands or the wire other than the length BUT if I
>splice in a wire, it won't work.
They may be right. 100ft of untwisted parallel cheezy wire is good
for about 500pf or so. That's quite a bit and will seriously affect
the resonant frequency of the wand. However, if the support droid is
telling the truth, then there should be a jumper or adjustment inside
the controller box for different lengths of cable. The manuals are
useless. So, you get to rip it open. Learn By Destroying(tm).
>The technical support guy was very helpful. He said the reason it won't
>work is that the "sensitivity of the magnetic field" changes with the
>splice.
Baloney. Well, maybe 50% baloney. The resonant frequency will
change, and therefore, so will the sensitivity.
>I don't understand why (if I make a good splice) but maybe there is
>something about magnetic fields I don't understand that you can elucidate
>for me? The wire is 5 conductor 16awg multi-strand shielded.
It's not the splice. It's the added capacitance wrecking the
resonance.
>What is it about a splice that destroys the magnetic field?
Nope.
--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com je...@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>>The instructions say you can not splice additional lengths
>>(http://www.gtopro.com/PDF/Flyers/Gate-Opener-Access-Control-FM139-vehicle-sensor.pdf
>
>Yep. For good reason. The contraption belches RF somewhere between
>20Khz and 150Khz and is similar to the vehicle detectors used for
>traffic signal control. The mass of the vehicle detunes the coil
>resulting in an increase in oscillator gate(?) current. In other
>words, the whole mess, including the cable, is part of a resonant
>circuit.
Ok, I lied. It's not the added capacitance. It's the added
inductance of the 100ft of feed cable. The destructions for a
different type of loop at:
<http://www.hooverfence.com/gtopro/manual/loopdt1-manual.pdf>
show an inductance of 0.22 microhenries per foot for the connecting
cable (presumably the same cable for both types of loops). That's
quite a bit of added inductance. I'm guessing, but it looks like the
target value for the loop and cable feed is about 100 microhenries.
Either way, adding the 100ft of cable is not going to work.
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>Ok, I lied. It's not the added capacitance. It's the added
>inductance of the 100ft of feed cable. The destructions for a
>different type of loop at:
><http://www.hooverfence.com/gtopro/manual/loopdt1-manual.pdf>
>show an inductance of 0.22 microhenries per foot for the connecting
>cable (presumably the same cable for both types of loops). That's
>quite a bit of added inductance. I'm guessing, but it looks like the
>target value for the loop and cable feed is about 100 microhenries.
Looks like the oscillation frequency is dependent on the loop
inductance. I (wrongly) assumed it was a fixed frequency (to make the
FCC happy). That means you could probably extend the cable feed and
all that will happen is that the oscillation frequency will be
drastically lowered. I don't know if that's going to cause a problem
with whatever they use for a detector, but it just might work.
However, if the new lower frequency causes airplanes to fall out of
sky, I suggest you instead purchase the correct exit sensor.
PeterD
The simple answer is just try it! What do you loose, a few minutes of
time?
That said, just make sure your splice is absolutely waterproof. 3M
makes underground splice kits that may work (used primarily for telco
work).
William Sommerwerck
Get the manufacturer to give you full credit towards a longer cable.
Elmo
> just make sure your splice is absolutely waterproof.
> 3M makes underground splice kits that may work
I have to find the 4-wire multi-stranded shielded cable first ... but I
will try the splice kit at the same time if I can find that also.
This morning I called GTO technical support again at 800-543-1236 and spoke
this time with a woman with a southern accent who told me a splice could be
done, but she said the problem is that it will eventually break. And, since
it will be underground, I won't know where it is and I'll be calling
technical support who won't know that it was spliced while they
troubleshoot.
When I asked "but CAN it be spliced?", she confirmed there is no difference
in the wand itself between the longer lengths of wire as the sensitivity
adjustments are done on the gate control board itself.
I'll look for that 3M waterproof splice kit. I think I'll need a
low-voltage splice kit. According to this web site, the voltage is 8 to 32
VAC or 8 to 26 VDC with a miniscule current of 1.5ma.
http://www.allsecurityequipment.com/proddetail.asp?prod=GTO-FM141
Elmo
> I suppose it's too late to exchange the exit wand.
I'm checking up on this right now.
Elmo
> Get the manufacturer to give you full credit towards a longer cable.
Once it's installed, they won't do that.
Elmo
> 3M makes underground splice kits that may work
> (used primarily for telco work).
Great idea! If it works for the telephone company, it should work here.
On the 3M web site, I found a splice kit for 3-conductor "armored" cable,
but not 4 conductor (and it was for 10-14 AWG, not 16AWG).
Here's the product information from: http://tinyurl.com/ybrgmlf
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MElectrical/Home/ProductsServices/Products/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE3E02LECIE20OES1_nid=PVQLFM5BXCbeGCC8VFQJBCgl
- 3M™ 3/C Low Voltage Splice Kit 5730, 14-10 AWG (UPC 00054007431718).
- These kits are applicable for indoor and outdoor installations,
- including direct burial, aerial and submersible applications.
- This kit requires 1 roll of 3M™ Armorcast™ Structural Material.
Do you think I can find a 4-conductor shielded 16 AWG cable splice kit at
ACE, OSH, or Home Depot? (I'll try later today.)
Elmo
> Oh, yeah, the technician might even believe what he told you even if
> I'm right.
I think the technicians have to say what's in the manual:
http://www.gtopro.com/PDF/Manuals/GTO-Gate-Opener-Gate-Operator-Manual-pro-wand.pdf
On Page 2 of that PDF installation manual, it says:
- The Wand cable CANNOT be spliced.
- If you need more wire, contact the GTO Sales Department at 800-543-GATE.
When I called the GTO Sales Department, they said the only solution was to
buy a new exit wand with a longer feed. They said all the exit wands are
different (contrary to what the technicians told me at the support number).
Elmo
> If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape, I think it's
> called, is even better than heat-shrink tubing and doesn't slip on, it
> wraps on.
I did find 3M silicone tape for splicing cable here
http://tinyurl.com/ya5sob2
http://rock.thomasnet.com/item/electronics-cables/3m-82-a-series-waterproof-power-cable-splice-kits/82-a3?&seo=110
So now the problem just is finding the 4-conductor 16AWG shielded cable and
the 3M splice kit in a store somewhere around here.
GregS
I am familiar with only one setup. A sewage plant. The opperator
controls gate open or close, and the pickup prevents the gate
from ramming into the vehicle.
You must have many guests and visitors to warrent this setup you have,
greg
Robert Macy
Address.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:31:47 -0500, mm wrote:
> > If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape, I think it's
> > called, is even better than heat-shrink tubing and doesn't slip on, it
> > wraps on.
>
>
> So now the problem just is finding the 4-conductor 16AWG shielded cable and
> the 3M splice kit in a store somewhere around here.
You originally said 5 conductor, now you say 4 conductor. ??
blueman
> If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape, I think it's
> called, is even better than heat-shrink tubing and doesn't slip on, it
> wraps on. Stretch it to 2 or 3 times its length, then wrap while
> streched and within a few days it merges into one big probably
> waterproof blob. Hard to find though.
HD has it in several locations in our local stores (plumbing and maybe also
electrical areas) - may be hard to find cuz most people don't know about it.
Elmo
> You must have many guests and visitors to warrent this setup you have,
I think it's the "typical" setup to have a way for guests to leave.
You have to note that I considered wiring a push-button (doorbell type)
switch in the house to open the gate for guests to leave but I can't even
see the gate from the house since it's about 500 feet down a hill to the
gate - so that would be a safety problem.
I guess I should walk everyone to the gate but that seems like a lot to ask
of me. But I think most people have the following bare minimums and common
electronics.
BARE MINIMUM ELECTRONICS:
- Keypad & remote open (with automatic close)
- Stall force setting so nobody gets crushed
EXTREMELY COMMON ELECTRONICS:
- Intercom for convenient entrance of guests
- Exit wand for automatic open upon exit
SPECIALTY ELECTRONICS:
- Telephone-operated gates (open/close from your cell phone)
- Video feeds on the gates (so you can see who is at the gate)
mm
<dcdraf...@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:
>On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:31:47 -0500, mm wrote:
>
>> If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape, I think it's
>> called, is even better than heat-shrink tubing and doesn't slip on, it
>> wraps on.
>
>I did find 3M silicone tape for splicing cable here
>http://tinyurl.com/ya5sob2
>http://rock.thomasnet.com/item/electronics-cables/3m-82-a-series-waterproof-power-cable-splice-kits/82-a3?&seo=110
I've only used the tape. I've never used, or even seen, the kit.
Hadn't even heard of a kit with resin before.
mm
It seems we are talking about -- at least that's what's included in
his kit -- "Scotch 23 High Voltage Tape"**, but when I search on that
at the Home Depot site, I get 2 hits, regular vinyl electrical tape
and packaging tape. When I search on "Scotch 23", I don't get
anything.
Now HD and Lowes have the worst webpages I've come across, so maybe
that doesn't mean anything.
The one easily visible thing I've noticed about this tape is that it
is wound on a white plastic spool, instead of a cardboard spool. It's
thick and has a backing layer that has to be removed to use a piece.
Are we talking about the same thing? Do they really have it at HD.
I looked years ago but couldnt' find it.
It's expensive. I think I paid 11 or 12 dollars a roll, but it's great
for special uses.
**Other listings for this tape call it self-fusing. That probably
refers to what I said about merging into a big blob. Other
descriptions make reference to the polyester liner, the backing layer.
But so far, I've found little reference to how it is to be applied.
Just one line "Physical and electrical properties are unaffected by
the degree of stretch." and I don't see how that is even true. OF
course if it is stretched to thee times its length and it's 2/3rds
thinner, it's going to have lower strength and electrical insulating
qualities. They even have a chart about that on page 3 of the same
data sheet.
http://www.cablejoints.co.uk/upload/3M_Scotch_23_Tape___Self_Amalgamating_Rubber_Tape.pdf
Self-amalgamating they call it here.
BTW, if you don't stretch it, it won't stick to what's underneath it.
There is no adhesive on the tape.
Elmo
>> So now the problem just is finding the 4-conductor 16AWG shielded cable and
>> the 3M splice kit in a store somewhere around here.
>
> You originally said 5 conductor, now you say 4 conductor. ??
There are actually 5 connections, but one of them is the shield which I
don't think the 3M product handles.
The 5 connections are at the gate control box but only 4 insulated wires
are inside the wire. The installation instructions for the exit wand tell
you to twist the end of the fifth shield together and wire nut it to the
battery.
The 4-conductor plus 1 shield wiring instructions are listed in this PDF.
http://www.mightymule.com/PDF/Manuals/FM138-Mighty-Mule-Wired-Exit-Sensor.pdf
In hind sight, I should have gone wireless. That way I could have put the
sensor anywhere I like. :(
Elmo
> mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>> If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape
>
> HD has it in several locations in our local stores (plumbing and maybe also
> electrical areas) - may be hard to find cuz most people don't know about it.
I'll go to Home Depot today and let us know what I find.
In hind sight, I should have bought the WIRELESS vehicle exit sensor setup!
http://www.mightymule.com/PDF/Manuals/FM130-Wireless-Exit-Sensor.pdf
George
> On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:33:19 GMT, GregS wrote:
>
>> You must have many guests and visitors to warrent this setup you have,
>
> I think it's the "typical" setup to have a way for guests to leave.
>
> You have to note that I considered wiring a push-button (doorbell type)
> switch in the house to open the gate for guests to leave but I can't even
> see the gate from the house since it's about 500 feet down a hill to the
> gate - so that would be a safety problem.
>
> I guess I should walk everyone to the gate but that seems like a lot to ask
> of me. But I think most people have the following bare minimums and common
> electronics.
>
> BARE MINIMUM ELECTRONICS:
> - Stall force setting so nobody gets crushed
>
> EXTREMELY COMMON ELECTRONICS:
> - Intercom for convenient entrance of guests
> - Exit wand for automatic open upon exit
>
> SPECIALTY ELECTRONICS:
> - Telephone-operated gates (open/close from your cell phone)
> - Video feeds on the gates (so you can see who is at the gate)
Or maybe you simply tell your departing guests "slow down when near the
gate and wait for it to open"?
I have been to a number of places where the gate works as I described.
George
> Why has no one paid attention to my suggestion?
>
> Get the manufacturer to give you full credit towards a longer cable.
>
>
they were misled.
mm
<dcdraf...@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:
>On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:34:56 -0800 (PST), Robert Macy wrote:
>
>>> So now the problem just is finding the 4-conductor 16AWG shielded cable and
>>> the 3M splice kit in a store somewhere around here.
>>
>> You originally said 5 conductor, now you say 4 conductor. ??
>
>There are actually 5 connections, but one of them is the shield which I
>don't think the 3M product handles.
>
>The 5 connections are at the gate control box but only 4 insulated wires
>are inside the wire. The installation instructions for the exit wand tell
>you to twist the end of the fifth shield together and wire nut it to the
>battery.
So the wires aren't individually shielded, you're saying?
So now I'm thinking just about any four conductor wire, stranded so it
will be sufficiently flexible, will be enough.
16 gauge would be nice, but I wouldnt' be too surprised if it worked
with almost any gauge. What say you, techno guys?
Is the shielding foil or woven wires? Oh, it says, braided metal
wire. Can't you solder new shielding to that>
Either way, for shielding, can't he just put the splice in some sort
of metal tube, a little longer than the splice, connected at one or
both ends to the shielding of the cable.
If they say this will work test it before you bury it. Wave the wand
over a car, at the right distance, instead of making the car drive
over it. Wait a while to see if tv or radio stations make the gate
open when no one is there. That doesn't seem very likely to me.
check if someone with a metal wheelbarrow can open the gate, but I
woudlnt' be too surprised if that would be true with a totally
standard installation . Is there no sensitivity adjustment anywhere?
Yes, there is. It's called potentiometer (pot).
It also says "IMPORTANT: When the SENSOR
is first powered up it must be undisturbed
for 60 seconds to perform
the self test and calibrations."
So, although there is a limit I'm sure to the range of whatever needs
to be calibrated, adjusted for, this means there is a range. That's
probably why they don't have to make all the cables of different
lengths the same.
It also says this:
If the SENSOR is not working:
1. Make sure the Range Adjustment is set at maximum range.
2. Disconnect the power (battery) to the SENSOR.
3. Reconnect the power to the SENSOR and make sure that no metal
object or vehicle is moving
around the SENSOR for 60 seconds while it is calibrating.
4. Test the SENSOR to verify that it is working properly.
5. Check that push/pull DIP switches on Control Board are set
correctly.
mm
wrote:
>In article <02dcc3e0db179648...@tioat.net>, Elmo <dcdraf...@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:
>>On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:16:20 -0500, ne...@jecarter.us wrote:
>>
>>> Could be like the gate at a corporate site I occasionally visit - for
>>> entry, you speak to a guard and show ID via a TV camera and the guard
>>> opens the gate. A device like the one in this thread is used to allow
>>> people to exit the gate.
>>
>>Yes. The "typical" gate setup is:
>>
>>1a. Owner approaches gate and flips remote control to get in.
>>1b. Utility truck approaches gate and pushed their logged 4-digit combo on
>>the digital keypad to get in (whether or not someone is home)
>>1c. Guest arrives and has to press the intercom button and can only be let
>>in if someone inside the house provides them access. Guest then pushes a
>>button on the keypad to open the gate.
>>
>>2. In all cases above, the gate closes 25 seconds after it was opened.
>>
>>3. In all cases above, when the owner/utility/guest leaves, the gate
>>automatically opens for them via the exit want magnetic field disturbance
>>sensor.
>>
>>At least that's how my gate is set up. Some are set up to open via
>>cellphone but mine isn't fancy.
>
>I am familiar with only one setup. A sewage plant. The opperator
Mine is similar to the one you know. It is residential, but guests
have to bring some sewage to get in.
mm
wrote:
>
>>Researching the web, it appears GTO sells three wands:
>>http://www.gtopro.com/access_controls.htm
>>- FM139 = 50 feet wired (about $180)
>>- FM140 = 100 feet wired (about $200)
>>- FM141 = 150 feet wired (about $225)
When I read the 50 foot price, I thought it was 100 dollars, not 180.
I thought 125 for another 100 feet was much too much, but it's only a
45 dollar difference.
William Sommerwerck
> Why? They OP decided to buy the particular length and didn't indicate
> they were misled.
True. But the cabling is not horribly expensive. The company should do this
out of "common courtesy".
mm
Be sure to let us know how this turns out. You owe us.
More below.
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:07:32 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
<dcdraf...@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:
>On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:39:31 -0500, PeterD wrote:
>
>> just make sure your splice is absolutely waterproof.
>> 3M makes underground splice kits that may work
>
>I have to find the 4-wire multi-stranded shielded cable first ... but I
>will try the splice kit at the same time if I can find that also.
>
>This morning I called GTO technical support again at 800-543-1236 and spoke
>this time with a woman with a southern accent who told me a splice could be
>done, but she said the problem is that it will eventually break. And, since
No, it won't. Not if it's soldered correctly. Have you soldered
much? Do you know how to solder well, to clean the wire first -- I
just scrape four sides of the wire with a fairly sharp knife --, use
flux core solder designed for electrical work, and make it hot enough
to not get a cold solder joint?
>it will be underground, I won't know where it is and I'll be calling
Of course you'll know where it is. It will be 50 feet from where you
buried the wand. And about 100 feet from where the controller is.
Note how far from the driveway you bury it and measure how far from
thecontroller it is, and write it down and tape it to the controller
box.
>technical support who won't know that it was spliced while they
>troubleshoot.
The next owner might well be in that situation. Make sure you leave
clear documentation for him. The guy who sold me my house spent an
hour teling me things about it.
>When I asked "but CAN it be spliced?", she confirmed there is no difference
>in the wand itself between the longer lengths of wire as the sensitivity
>adjustments are done on the gate control board itself.
As I thought in some other post of mine.
>I'll look for that 3M waterproof splice kit. I think I'll need a
>low-voltage splice kit.
Anything that works for high voltages works for low voltages. I'm not
sure what the advantage of the kit is. Certainly if I couldn't find
the kit, I'd just wrap the self-fusing tape around the wire, going an
inch or more past the splice, past the part where the original
insulation is still intact.
My neighbor had some semi-skilled guys putting in a small fence and
they cut my phone line. Of course they "took repsonsibilty" and they
were winding the wires together and taping them with standard electric
tape. I came out and stopped them, and soldered the connections and
wrapped them in this self-fusing tape, and even when I had dial-up
internet, I got very good connection speeds.
Later, someone told me I should let the phone company repair it and
indeed they would do it for free, but the guy on the phone said all
they do is use those gel-filled connectors and what I did was better.
Nothing beats solder, and no tape beats Scotch 23.
Now, if you don't have an connector on the end of the wire, you could
use heat-shrink tubing, but though it looks real nice, it doesn't have
much tension when shrinking or afterwareds, and I think the scotch 23,
silicone tape will do a much better job.
> According to this web site, the voltage is 8 to 32
>VAC or 8 to 26 VDC with a miniscule current of 1.5ma.
>http://www.allsecurityequipment.com/proddetail.asp?prod=GTO-FM141
BTW, are you near powerlines? Most places aren't but a few are.
mm
<dcdraf...@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:
>On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:39:31 -0500, PeterD wrote:
>
>> 3M makes underground splice kits that may work
>> (used primarily for telco work).
>
>Great idea! If it works for the telephone company, it should work here.
No. Soldering is better. The phone company doesn't want to spend the
time it takes to solder each connection, up to hundreds a day, and it
has a staff to go fix problems when they develop, as well as
electronic tools to find the break in a wire, by injecting a signal at
one end if necessary.
And if you plan to use the gel connectors they use, that might require
practice too to learn to do them right, and maybe also a special pair
of pliers. I'm not sure, but I know you've never done it before.
>On the 3M web site, I found a splice kit for 3-conductor "armored" cable,
>but not 4 conductor (and it was for 10-14 AWG, not 16AWG).
>
>Here's the product information from: http://tinyurl.com/ybrgmlf
>http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MElectrical/Home/ProductsServices/Products/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE3E02LECIE20OES1_nid=PVQLFM5BXCbeGCC8VFQJBCgl
>
>- 3M� 3/C Low Voltage Splice Kit 5730, 14-10 AWG (UPC 00054007431718).
>- These kits are applicable for indoor and outdoor installations,
>- including direct burial, aerial and submersible applications.
>- This kit requires 1 roll of 3M� Armorcast� Structural Material.
I don't know what "3M� Armorcast� Structural Material" is, but it's
not for you. You also don't have armored cable.
>
>Do you think I can find a 4-conductor shielded 16 AWG cable splice kit at
>ACE, OSH, or Home Depot? (I'll try later today.)
I've never heard of a kit being designed for a certain number of
conductors, unless maybe they're talking about some special way to
splice all 3 conductors at the same time. There's no need to do that.
For one thing, you'd need some machine costing thousands to solder
more than one connection at the same time, and any other kind of
connection is inferior. Just solder and tape each connection
yourself, one at a time. By offsetting the splices, as I and one of
the links you gave suggested, you won't have to wrap insulation around
each separate solder joint. Just make sure that neither the soldered
area or any of the bared wire is at the same position as any bare
portion of any conductor. And make sure there are no sharp points in
the solder of any conection. They could pierce the insulation. I
think they only result when the solder isn't hot enough, (or maybe
when there wasn't enough flux???). At any rate, you probably won't
have that, or you can reheat, or cut them off with wire cutters, or
wrap them separately with enough layers so it can't pierce through.
Then just wrap the whole thing at one time. If it turns out that two
of the uninsulated parts could touch each other, wrap one of them
seaparately first.
You're making this too complicated, partly because of what they told
you when you first called. You need a soldering iron, solder, and
tape, not a kit.
BTW, when some of these sites talk about low voltage, they're talking
about 110 volts and 220 volts, as opposed to 10,000 volts, which is
high voltage. They're talking about currents in the range of 10 or 20
amps or more. No, much more. Look at the wire gauges they deal with
in the link you provide above. 14 to 10AWG, 8-4AWG, 2-1/0, 2-0. 14
gauge will carry 15 amps, 10 gauge will carry at least 25 amps. 8
gauge at least 30 amps (probably more but I don't recall) 2 gauge must
carry 100 amps and zero gauge even more. Imagine how big those wires
are. That's what these kits are for, not for little wires carrying
tiny currents, like a few thousandths of an amp.
You otoh are dealing with much lower voltalge and much lower currents,
and much lower maximum currents also. You can't even feel 12 volts
and maybe you can barely feel a tingle with 24 volts, but I don't
think so.
mm
>
>>No. Soldering is better. The phone company doesn't want to spend the
>>time it takes to solder each connection, up to hundreds a day, and it
>>has a staff to go fix problems when they develop, as well as
>>electronic tools to find the break in a wire, by injecting a signal at
>>one end if necessary.
>
>Hey please stop cross posting this bullshit to SER.
The trouble is, we don't know which group the OP is reading. We
don't know which group gets the "post" and which gets the cross post.
I used to say which group I was posting from when I crosspostd, but no
one else seems to think of that.
>Thanks.
PeterD
>On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:26:57 -0500, mm
><NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:26:21 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
>><dcdraf...@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:39:31 -0500, PeterD wrote:
>>>
>>>> 3M makes underground splice kits that may work
>>>> (used primarily for telco work).
>>>
>>>Great idea! If it works for the telephone company, it should work here.
>>
>>No. Soldering is better. The phone company doesn't want to spend the
>>time it takes to solder each connection, up to hundreds a day, and it
>>has a staff to go fix problems when they develop, as well as
>>electronic tools to find the break in a wire, by injecting a signal at
>>one end if necessary.
>
>Hey please stop cross posting this bullshit to SER.
>
>Thanks.
Piss off meathead.
PeterD
wrote:
>On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:37:48 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
><dcdraf...@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:34:56 -0800 (PST), Robert Macy wrote:
>>
>>>> So now the problem just is finding the 4-conductor 16AWG shielded cable and
>>>> the 3M splice kit in a store somewhere around here.
>>>
>>> You originally said 5 conductor, now you say 4 conductor. ??
>>
>>There are actually 5 connections, but one of them is the shield which I
>>don't think the 3M product handles.
>>
>>The 5 connections are at the gate control box but only 4 insulated wires
>>are inside the wire. The installation instructions for the exit wand tell
>>you to twist the end of the fifth shield together and wire nut it to the
>>battery.
>
>So the wires aren't individually shielded, you're saying?
>
>So now I'm thinking just about any four conductor wire, stranded so it
>will be sufficiently flexible, will be enough.
>
I'd be looking for some shielded CAT5 (STP) stranded wire, which
shouldwork OK. I've got the cable the OP wants, but I suspect he's a
long ways from me!
Dean Hoffman
> I have to find the 4-wire multi-stranded shielded cable first ... but I
> will try the splice kit at the same time if I can find that also.
>
on irrigation systems. Have you tried the local telephone company?
mm
>
>>No. Soldering is better. The phone company doesn't want to spend the
>>time it takes to solder each connection, up to hundreds a day, and it
>>has a staff to go fix problems when they develop, as well as
>>electronic tools to find the break in a wire, by injecting a signal at
>>one end if necessary.
>
>Hey please stop cross posting this bullshit to SER.
The trouble is, we don't know which group the OP is reading. We
Michael A. Terrell
Direct burial telephone wire is solid, not stranded. It is usually
thinner, like 22 gauge as well.
--
Greed is the root of all eBay.
Elmo
>> I have to find the 4-wire multi-stranded shielded cable
>>
> The wire sounds like two pair direct burial phone line. We use it
> on irrigation systems. Have you tried the local telephone company?
Interesting. I don't know if the local phone company sells to people, but I
can ask.
Elmo
>>she said the problem is that it will eventually break.
>
> No, it won't. Not if it's soldered correctly.
> Have you soldered much?
I have a propane torch, a smaller butane torch with soldering tips, and the
Weller soldering station. I'm not all that good (I always seem to melt the
solder instead of heating the wires) but I'd consider myself ok with
solder.
> Of course you'll know where it is. It will be 50 feet from where you
> buried the wand. And about 100 feet from where the controller is.
I could also look for an electrical connection type box (like the ones
used with the water sprinklers) and that way it would be obvious to all,
even any new owners.
> Now, if you don't have an connector on the end of the wire,
> you could use heat-shrink tubing,
> I think the scotch 23, silicone tape will do a much better job.
I think I'll solder in a compatible wire after finding that scotch 23 in a
local hardware store. My home depot didn't have it.
> BTW, are you near powerlines? Most places aren't but a few are.
Yes There are overhead power lines. Why do you ask?
Elmo
> Direct burial telephone wire is solid, not stranded.
> It is usually thinner, like 22 gauge as well.
I wonder if it matters. What is the fundamental difference between how a
solid wire acts versus multi-stranded wire in this type of low voltage
(8-32v) and very low current (1.5ma) application?
Elmo
> The trouble is, we don't know which group the OP is reading. We
> don't know which group gets the "post" and which gets the cross post.
My fault. I'll just stick with alt.home.repair!
>
> I used to say which group I was posting from when I crosspostd, but no
> one else seems to think of that.
That's a good idea. I'll use it next time.
Elmo
> So the wires aren't individually shielded, you're saying?
No. Each wire has plastic around it and the shield is this beautifully
braided tinned wire which is much thinner than the other four conductors
but it's an entire net of wires nicely braided together.
> Is the shielding foil or woven wires? Oh, it says, braided metal
> wire. Can't you solder new shielding to that>
I think it can easily be soldered. It's not foil. It's braided wire.
> check if someone with a metal wheelbarrow can open the gate, but I
> woudlnt' be too surprised if that would be true with a totally
> standard installation . Is there no sensitivity adjustment anywhere?
They give you stickers saying kids on a bicycle can open the gate so I'd be
pretty sure in a "normal" situation, a metal wheelbarrow, moving fast
enough, could also trigger the opening.
There is a sensitivity adjustment pot that comes with the exit wand that
you mount onto the gate control board, so, yes, there is a sensitivity
adjustment.
Elmo
> I'd be looking for some shielded CAT5 (STP) stranded wire
Very interesting suggestion!
I didn't know what STP was but it's apparently "Shielded Twisted Pair".
Searching, I can easily find 100 foot lengths of "Cat 5 STP", e.g.,
http://www.topmicrousa.com/10x6-521hd.html
I like the idea of wiring a female RJ45 connector and just plugging a
standard CAT5 STP wire into the RJ45 for convenience (no soldering
required).
Apparently CAT5 uses either foil shields or braid and maybe both as alluded
to in this url ( http://sewelldirect.com/Cat5e-STP-Bulk-Cable.asp ).
Note: Removed crosspost.
Elmo
> Why? They OP decided to buy the particular length and didn't indicate
> they were misled.
It was my fault. Not theirs. They recommended 50 feet but I should have
questioned that. In reality, I didn't realize until it was too late that 50
feet is just too close to the gate. At least future users who see this post
will know better than I.
PS: Removed sci.electronics.repair crosspost
mm
Well I personally think cross posting is a good thing a) when one
doesn't know which group is the better or best one.
b) when people on one group could benefit by learning from the other
group.
c) lots of other good reasons.
For just one example, a Firefox question to a small netscape/firefox
group and a big OS group. Everyone who uses firefox would benefit if
the firefox guy knows the answer, but there are a lot more people in
the OS group.
Another example is this thread here. I don't know why meatplow
objected. I think he reads this group anyhow and not the other one.
One of the big disadvantages of web forums is that there is no way to
ask a "multi-disciplinary" question in more than one forum at the same
time, or so each will read the others' replies.
mm
They sold to our organization once. Those half-round plastic tubes
(half-tubes) 8 feet long that they use. But we had a more
comprehensive arrangement with them before hand. And we had to buy a
box at a time, maybe 100 per box.
Four conductor shielded wire shoudlnt' be easy to get.
In addition, what I said in another post, if you have a half inch with
no shielding, I doubt it matters. Or you can take 2 or 3 inches from
your 100 foot piece, and remove the shielding from that and wrap it
around the splice area. Soldering it at both ends would be optimal.
But it's not like there will be big metal things running over the
splice area inducing the gate to open. Even bicycles are less likely
to ride on the lawn than on the driveway.
Dan Lanciani
| Do you think I can find a 4-conductor shielded 16 AWG cable splice kit at
| ACE, OSH, or Home Depot? (I'll try later today.)
I doubt it.
Here is the kit I used to splice the cable to a similar vehicle detection
wand about 15 years ago. It has worked fine since:
http://www.homecontrols.com/Winland-Vehicle-Alert-Cable-Splice-Kit-WL1082
Note that this was just the first Google hit and you may be able to find
it as a Winland product for less. Moreover, Winland probably doesn't
actually make it so you might find a generic for even less again.
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
mm
<dcdraf...@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:
>On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:55:51 -0500, mm wrote:
>
>
>>>she said the problem is that it will eventually break.
>>
>> No, it won't. Not if it's soldered correctly.
>> Have you soldered much?
>
>I have a propane torch, a smaller butane torch with soldering tips, and the
I like an electric soldering iron for soldering wires. It's not like
soldering metal gutters. :)
>Weller soldering station. I'm not all that good (I always seem to melt the
>solder instead of heating the wires) but I'd consider myself ok with
>solder.
After 40 years I often melt the solder directly, but if you make sure
it's hot before taking away the soldering iron, it's fine.
>
>> Of course you'll know where it is. It will be 50 feet from where you
>> buried the wand. And about 100 feet from where the controller is.
>
>I could also look for an electrical connection type box (like the ones
>used with the water sprinklers) and that way it would be obvious to all,
>even any new owners.
I wouldn't bother.
>> Now, if you don't have an connector on the end of the wire,
>> you could use heat-shrink tubing,
>> I think the scotch 23, silicone tape will do a much better job.
>
>I think I'll solder in a compatible wire after finding that scotch 23 in a
>local hardware store. My home depot didn't have it.
http://www.rshughes.com/products/054007_13061.html?ref=g&refcp=froogle
Some other websites had 50 or 100 roll minimums!
>> BTW, are you near powerlines? Most places aren't but a few are.
>
>Yes There are overhead power lines. Why do you ask?
The docs mentioned power lines. but if they are overhead they are
probably too far away to matter.
William Sommerwerck
As is true of most companies, the company selling this product is unable to
give factual, useful information to the customer. (What else is new?) There
is no reason why the people in this group -- or any other group -- should be
obliged to make up for its failure to do so.
It seems to me that the manufacturer should have supplied information about
selecting the appropriate length of cable, according to the vehicle, the
vehicle owner's needs, etc. It apparently did not. If the customer makes a
mistake, then the company should DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, as I've suggested.
If the company won't, then the owner has no recourse but to purchase a new
cable or sensor-wand system.
I don't see why this group should be expected to analyze an unfamiliar
product and provide useful troubeshooting/modification/repair information,
when the manufacturer won't. This problem cannot be new to the company. It
ought to have some mechanism in place for resovling such issues. Apparently,
it is too stupid to.
William Sommerwerck
I just spoke with a customer-service rep at GTO.
He said that they care about their customers and want them to be happy. You
should return the wand to GTO to confirm that it's working correctly. If you
need a longer cable, they will make some accommodation (he didn't say what,
and I didn't press him) so that you can have the longer cable.
Sometimes it's just a matter of knowing how to present your problem.
I hope this resolves it.
PeterD
I don't see the company at fault in the initial purchase. Also, only
slightly at fault for conflicting advice from the telephone operator
on splicing (which differed from the technician's advice, which is
what I'd consider the be the accurate one...)
If you think that companies should cover all their customer's errors
and mistakes then I'd suggest you start a company and make that a
feature of your operation. Maybe you'll have great success. But my
experience, as a business man, has been that some people make errors,
and it makes little sense to expect someone else to pay for their
errors.
As to not seeing 'why this group should...' realize that is the reason
this group exists! After all, it is not called
'alt.home.repair.get.maker.to.replace.it' or
'sci.electroncs.leverage.the.company'. We concentrated on repairing
the problem. Not trying to figure a way or justification to make the
supplier (who did nothing wrong) to replace a product that was not
defective or flawed.
PeterD
wrote:
Please don't feed meathead the troll. He offers no advice just a total
waste of bandwidth trolling for his 15 seconds of fame.
William Sommerwerck
> slightly at fault for conflicting advice from the telephone operator
> on splicing (which differed from the technician's advice, which is
> what I'd consider the be the accurate one...)
> If you think that companies should cover all their customer's errors
> and mistakes then I'd suggest you start a company and make that
> a feature of your operation.
I don't. But I think it should make an effort.
See the posting "GTO wand problem resolved (???)". I might have solved the
problem.
Jeff Liebermann
<grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Why has no one paid attention to my suggestion?
Because everyone is too busy writing one line answers to read what you
posted.
There are currently 47 messages in this thread, which is a bit much to
read. I've only read about half, with nothing really interesting
(except my own postings).
>Get the manufacturer to give you full credit towards a longer cable.
That would be too easy, obvious, no fun, doesn't involve repair,
lacking in entertainment value, and not much of a learning experience.
I also assumed that he's already tried to do that.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Jeff Liebermann
<grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Get the manufacturer to give you full credit towards a longer cable.
>
>> Why? They OP decided to buy the particular length and didn't indicate
>> they were misled.
>
>True. But the cabling is not horribly expensive. The company should do this
>out of "common courtesy".
The pickup coil and cabling appear to be a matched set where the cable
is an integral part of the tuned circuit. However, at $200 for a coil
and roll of cable, I would think there would be sufficient profit to
allow for an ocassional courtesy exchange. Whether courtesy is all
that common is debatable as companies that have liberal return
policies tend to have it abused and overused.
William Sommerwerck
> the cable is an integral part of the tuned circuit. However, at
> $200 for a coil and roll of cable, I would think there would be
> sufficient profit to allow for an ocassional courtesy exchange.
> Whether courtesy is all that common is debatable as companies
> that have liberal return policies tend to have it abused and overused.
GTO has told me that if the OP contacts them, and returns the original wand
for a checkout (and it's working correctly), they will make some sort of
accommodation, because they want happy customers.
I've stated this in another posting in this thread.
Michael Kennedy
"Elmo" <dcdraf...@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote in message
news:f092f721a034ccd5...@tioat.net...
> On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:55:51 -0500, mm wrote:
>
>
>>>she said the problem is that it will eventually break.
>>
>> No, it won't. Not if it's soldered correctly.
>> Have you soldered much?
>
> I have a propane torch, a smaller butane torch with soldering tips, and
> the
> Weller soldering station. I'm not all that good (I always seem to melt the
> solder instead of heating the wires) but I'd consider myself ok with
> solder.
Why not just replace the whole wire from the control box to the sensor wand?
Then theres no splices in the ground.
mm
wrote:
>
>Four conductor shielded wire shoudlnt' be easy to get.
Typo. I meant it shouldnt' be hard to get. But maybe only
mail-order (internet).
And of course no one on any newsgroup is obliged to solve a poster's
problems. People try because they want to be helpful and sometimes to
show off their knowledge (or what they think is knowledge at the time
of posting.)
And I too considered returning the original cable. I asked if it had
already been buried and was too dirty to return.
And this question was definitely suitable for sci.eletronics.repair,
because the only real question is at the electronics level. The
question of how to connect two cables is just an inquiry about
technique.
William Sommerwerck
> I asked if it had already been buried and was too
> dirty to return.
I was told that if you contact customer service, they will make some sort of
accomodation to help you.
Give 'em a call.
Robert Macy
..snip...
> No. Soldering is better. The phone company doesn't want to spend the
> time it takes to solder each connection, up to hundreds a day, and it
> has a staff to go fix problems when they develop, as well as
> electronic tools to find the break in a wire, by injecting a signal at
> one end if necessary.
>
from PERSONAL experience:
DON'T SOLDER LONG TERM CONNECTIONS! ESPECIIALLY OUTDOORS!
Crimp, or constant mechanical pressure is BEST. And DON'T solder a
crimp, you will ruin it.
I made the mistake of soldering links in my security system. Now
these solder joints were something to be proud of, too. Cleaned
wire. Wrapped tightly together at the splice for at least 5 turns.
Solder was high quality and not overheated during soldering. Solder
shiny and wetting out for at least 1 inch. They lasted 10 years before
I got hit with a false alarm. Then a month later another mysterious
false alarm. Each time reset alarm system and all connections were
good. Then went to every week. Until I went to all my soldered
junctions and re-soldered them. Alarm worked for another 10 years,
until, repeat.
I never had to re-do my crimped connections.
Being an arrogant college graduate, I did not listen to the "lowly"
experienced security system installers who told me about crimping is
better than soldering. I knew better. I thought they just were lazy,
because careful soldering takes time and crimping is fast. I learned
a very humbling experience from these experiences.
By the way, a separate alarm system with links running outside the
building, the soldered connections lasted only one year before false
alarm. So, again, don't solder your connections.
Crimp is best, because you have constant mechanical pressure between
the conductors. Solder won't do that, all eases with time.
Robert
Robert Macy
Elmo, believe me.
DON'T SOLDER YOUR UNDERGROUND CONNECTIONS. THEY WILL FAIL
see my other post
Mike
wrote:
> This has gone on long enough.
>
No no no....this is the most entertaining thread I have read today. I
love the earnestness of the OP.
Mike
Robert Macy
...snip...
> There are currently 47 messages in this thread, which is a bit much to
> read. I've only read about half, with nothing really interesting
> (except my own postings).
>
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
LOL! Thanks. I needed that today.
Robert Macy
The overhead power lines provide a voltage disturbance [shorted out by
shielding] and a magnetic disturbance, as a result of how much current
is carried [most utilities companies provide free EMF surveys] but if
those lines are low voltage, they are close together, so the magentic
fields won't be as strong as from those 115kV lines, which are
separated by more than 15 feet. If you measure more than 1 microtesla
at your cable, I would be surprised. And, you can calculate the
effect of such a field. Don't worry about it.
But as you know, make the shield a complete 'opaque' wrap, completely
enclosing all wires. Do NOT break the shield and use a single wire to
'jump the gap' for any distance.
From reading the manuals, it appears GTO has active circuitry inside
the wand. Power is supplied to it. Plus, from your comments with
them, it appears the ONLY difference in the wand/cable is length of
wire. Note they know the problems of splicing cable underground and
provide you with a 'trouble-free' long run of sealed wire. A splice
violates that seal, and believe me an underground splice can be
challenging.
You have to retrieve your wand anyway, so I recommend trying the extra
cable length. The cost of cable is small. And for this initial test,
you can simply use any shielded cable containing more than two twisted
pairs. Simply lay the cables out on the ground and test the system.
Probably will work. If so, then as you reinstall underground, use a
better cable and make sure your splice is placed inside a water-free
zone, like in an upside down plastic tub covering the splice. Just
picture how would you house such a splice if the whole system is
underwater? That pretty much covers what rain soaking will do to
you. Even so, still use amalgamizing coatings to seal the conductors,
else they will deteriorate.
Sadly, William has the BEST suggestion, but it is much less
challenging. Go to the vendor and ask them to upgrade you to a longer
cable wand for a small charge. Or, if you feel wronged, no charge.
My bet says the buried part of the system will perform well for ten
years spliced and for 25+ years with no splice.
PeterD
wrote:
Considering the wand is burried, the only way that will happen is if
you raise the splice above ground!
PeterD
>>...
>
>Blow it out your ass you incessant babbling assclown.
>You fucking idiots have run this topic into the ground
>like a bunch off nattering old cunts. In reality you fuckheads
>are the trolls, not I and I contribute where I can. Just happens my
>contribution to this beaten into the ground thread is for you to end
>the cross post and argue about this silly ass bullshit in AHR. If you
>don't like it shove it up your fucking fart-valve.
>
>And if you think I care enough about fame in the eyes of
>fuckwitted turds like you and the rest of these nattering nincompoops
>You are woefully mistaken.
Hee-he-he-eh... Mature response, proves the point nicely.
blueman
> On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:14:22 -0500, blueman <NOS...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>>> If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape, I think it's
>>> called, is even better than heat-shrink tubing and doesn't slip on, it
>>> wraps on. Stretch it to 2 or 3 times its length, then wrap while
>>> streched and within a few days it merges into one big probably
>>> waterproof blob. Hard to find though.
>>
>>HD has it in several locations in our local stores (plumbing and maybe also
>>electrical areas) - may be hard to find cuz most people don't know about it.
>
> It seems we are talking about -- at least that's what's included in
> his kit -- "Scotch 23 High Voltage Tape"**, but when I search on that
> at the Home Depot site, I get 2 hits, regular vinyl electrical tape
> and packaging tape. When I search on "Scotch 23", I don't get
> anything.
I don't remember it being called High Voltage Tape...
>
> Now HD and Lowes have the worst webpages I've come across, so maybe
> that doesn't mean anything.
>
> The one easily visible thing I've noticed about this tape is that it
> is wound on a white plastic spool, instead of a cardboard spool. It's
> thick and has a backing layer that has to be removed to use a piece.
I think that's right because otherwise it would stick to itself -- which
is exactly what it should be doing when you apply it.
>
> Are we talking about the same thing? Do they really have it at HD.
They do in our area.
> I looked years ago but couldnt' find it.
>
> It's expensive. I think I paid 11 or 12 dollars a roll, but it's great
> for special uses.
I seem to remember more like $5-7.
Elmo
> http://www.rshughes.com/products/054007_13061.html?ref=g&refcp=froogle
This is a wonderful find. 12 bucks + tax/shipping for a roll.
Thanks for this great idea. I don't have the wire yet, but the plan is to
solder them and then tape them with this scotch 23 self-sealing tape.
Should work.
NOTE: Removed sci.electronics.repair due to a prior request.
Elmo
> Why not just replace the whole wire from the control box to the sensor wand?
> Then theres no splices in the ground.
The sensor wand is sealed.
Elmo
> Considering the wand is burried, the only way that will happen is if
> you raise the splice above ground!
Right. The only place the wand and wires comes up for air is directly at
the control box attached to the gate.
mm
>mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>> On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:14:22 -0500, blueman <NOS...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>>mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>>>> If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape, I think it's
>>>> called, is even better than heat-shrink tubing and doesn't slip on, it
>>>> wraps on. Stretch it to 2 or 3 times its length, then wrap while
>>>> streched and within a few days it merges into one big probably
>>>> waterproof blob. Hard to find though.
>>>
>>>HD has it in several locations in our local stores (plumbing and maybe also
>>>electrical areas) - may be hard to find cuz most people don't know about it.
>>
>> It seems we are talking about -- at least that's what's included in
>> his kit -- "Scotch 23 High Voltage Tape"**, but when I search on that
>> at the Home Depot site, I get 2 hits, regular vinyl electrical tape
>> and packaging tape. When I search on "Scotch 23", I don't get
>> anything.
>
>I don't remember it being called High Voltage Tape...
Most of the hits I got yesterday called it Scotch 23 Rubber Splicing
Tape.
Hah, Mouser sells it. Within the areas they sell things for
connectors, small switches, etc. they have just about everything,
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/3M-Electronic-Specialty/SCOTCH-23-3-4-TAPE/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuwwZaQzCsHbBksJ154q6XeW%2F11ygiiXNI%3D
They call it rubber splicing tape. When I got mine, it came without a
wrapper, which is why I ddidn't know what to call it.
They want 22.76 a roll. A dollar less each if you buy two. The URL I
posted yesterday charged about 12. I don't know about relative
shipping costs. This is for 3/4" which is the narrowist I've seen.
30 feet which is what the other rolls that width were.
This width is what I have and if you get wider, it may be harder to
economize with it.
A search for rubber splicing at the HD site showed nothing.
Lowes came up with
Image x
3M 3/4"W x 15'L Electrical Splicing Tape
Item #: 158594 | Model #: 2242
For moisture sealing and insulating.
Highly conformable, linerless ethylene propylene rubber (EPR) based
tape
But this is number 2242 Linerless Rubber Splicing tape, with which I
have no experience and it isn't the same thing because without the
liner the other stuff would merge into a blob. It's only 3.94 but if
it doesn't self-amalgamate, I don't know what is special about it.
mm
<dcdraf...@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:
>On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:48:43 -0500, PeterD wrote:
>
>> I'd be looking for some shielded CAT5 (STP) stranded wire
>
>Very interesting suggestion!
Reordered:
>Note: Removed crosspost.
Don't let one person, especially a person who reads the very newsgroup
you're reading (because of the nature of the question, he must have
thought you were reading SER), pressure you into removing
crossposting. Whether you need individual shielding for each pair
of wires is more an electronics question than it is a home repair
question. Sure plenty of the people on AHR know more than just how to
saw wood, but fewer do electronics full-time, which some of the SER
people do. Fewer took relevant courses also, either in school or at
their jobs.
And especially in this case, I don't know why he's suggesting shielded
pairs when the original cable has only one layer of shielding for all
four wires. I guess because the stuff is easy to get from the places
he shops, but 4-conductor, one-shield is easy to get at other places.
SER restored.
>I didn't know what STP was but it's apparently "Shielded Twisted Pair".
>
>Searching, I can easily find 100 foot lengths of "Cat 5 STP", e.g.,
>http://www.topmicrousa.com/10x6-521hd.html
Sure you can, and if you get 100 feet, doesn't that mean you'll be
burying the connection with the other 50 feet, as planned?
BTW, don't get carried away with their alleged "today only". There
are at least two places that are cheaper than they are for this every
day of the year. monoprice and one other I bought from
>I like the idea of wiring a female RJ45 connector and just plugging a
>standard CAT5 STP wire into the RJ45 for convenience (no soldering
>required).
Who says it's not required? It's not facilitated or provided for, but
that's not the same as not required. Even Robert Macy -- and no one
has commented on his posts yet. I would like to hear others' opinion
on that -- didn't say that that a mere plug-in modular phone connector
(which is what cat5 and 6 use, except with more wires) was enough. He
disliked soldering but wants crimping. Plugging in is not crimping,
and he recommended crimping.
>Apparently CAT5 uses either foil shields or braid and maybe both as alluded
>to in this url ( http://sewelldirect.com/Cat5e-STP-Bulk-Cable.asp ).
Yes it does, to shield one pair from another, one wire from a wire in
another pair, but even your original cable doesn't bother to do that.
It only tries to shield the wires from the outside.
With Cat-5 or 6, you're paying for 4 pairs, 8 wires, instead of just 4
wires. That's a waste too.
And you're paying for them to put on ends which unless someone I know
convinces me otherwise, you should really cut off and solder or crimp
to the original wire.
They do use modular plugs where the phone line comes into the house,
if there is a Network Interface Device, or the same thing by another
name. It's a covered box, outside but above grade. I don't know how
often they need maintenance.