Thread a short pipe coming out of a wall?
RogerT
exterior wall and into my basement. It is a gas supply line. Here is a
photo:
http://i56.tinypic.com/qx9kl1.jpg
The part coming out of the wall and before the first silver fitting is about
5 inches long to that point.
My question is, if I take all of the fittings off, and I cut the pipe to
make it shorter, is there any way to thread the remaining piece of pipe in
place while it is still in the wall?
And, if so, what is approximately the shortest length I can make that pipe
and still thread it while in place in the wall?
It's a long story why I am asking this question -- most of which is
explained in a thread I started here on 11/08/2010 with the subject "ID this
gas pipe fitting?"
Thanks.
tra...@optonline.net
You can thread it with the appropriate pipe die and tool. There would
certainly be enough left to easily thread, You might be able to rent
one at a tool rental shop. Sounds like you need to shorten it for
some reason? The threading tool can be run right up to the wall and
should cut threads to within 1/4 to 1/2" of the wall, so you could cut
it off about 1 3/4 from the wall.
LSMFT
out or strip at the other end in the ground unless the cement has a good
hold on it.
--
LSMFT
Simple job, assist the assistant of the physicist.
Art Todesco
other side of the wall. It looks like, but I can't really tell from
the pic, that the pipe is going through a sleeve pipe in the
concrete. If it's not a sleeve and is threaded into it, then you
can remove it and put in a new shorter nipple. But my guess is that
it is just a sleeve.
Bob F
That sounds like a good possibility. A leak just outside the wall could be a
real problem. Gaining access to the outside joint and removing the pipe for
replacement with a shorter length would be another possibility. Or, at least
using a pipe wrench on the outside to keep the pipe from rotating while
threading. Otherwise, allow enough length for a pipe wrench on the inside
against the wall to hold it while threading.
tra...@optonline.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
If the pipe can't withstand the torque of threading, which isn't all
that great, then it shouldn't be carrying gas to begin with.
DD_BobK
Roger-
Hold on there for a bit....... I re-read the entire previous thread &
looked at all the photos.
It's raining here & I've been waiting for a break to walk out to the
garage to measure my pipe dies.
The largest one I have is 1".
It's meant to go on the Rigid 00-R handle.
I think to thread 1-1/2" pipe you'll need a 12-R and those dies are a
bit larger.
With my smaller set, from back side to front edge of pipe, you need
I'm wet but I have hard numbers
With the 1" die in my handle set you need at least 3"" from the wall
and that would not give you any finger space to wrap around the
handle,
you'd be "clawing" at the with your fingers.
I'm figuring the with a big boy like 1-1/2" you'll need even more
clearance.
I would suggest not cutting anything until you have the exact
dimensions of your re-threading solution.
Hex style dies for "threading" pipe are available but they are more
for thread chasing / thread repair.
Getting one to starting squarely on a pipe stub would be quite a
trick. :(
The overall length of the thread; good thread (~3/4) and imperfect
threads (~1/4") is just a bit over 1".
McMaster Carr has one but its huge, 3.5" across the flats.
2573A93
Thread Repair Hex Dies Right Hand,
1-1/2"-11-1/2 NPT, 3-1/2" W Across Flats
In stock at $159.35 Each
Back on your original thread, having taken another look at all the
photos & the current ones as well,
I think the fitting in question is some sort of union, with the rusty
part threading over the shiny part.
Did you ever determine if the shiny part was magnetic? (steel vs
aluminum)
cheers
Bob
Joe
> snip<
> Gaining access to the outside joint and removing the pipe for
> replacement with a shorter length would be another possibility.
>snip<
Likely that is the only logical choice. The odd fitting is a gas union
and should easily unscrew allowing a shorter nipple to be installed.
Confirm the fitting purpose with your gas company since it is an
unusual type not used in many areas.
Joe
dpb
...
> ... The threading tool can be run right up to the wall and
> should cut threads to within 1/4 to 1/2" of the wall, so you could cut
> it off about 1 3/4 from the wall.
Not w/ a standard threader, no....the leading end of a pipe threader is
inches long to align the die with the length of pipe to ensure start
threading evenly. Otherwise, there's no hope of getting started
straight w/ a plain die, particularly on this large a pipe (iirc, this
is 1-1/2 or maybe larger, even; I recall it's a supply to a 3-unit
building not just a single residence).
OP is getting too fine here, imo. Build around it and make do.
I suppose one alternative would be to thread on past the existing as far
as can, then cut the remaining off leaving the proper thread length.
Remember that NPT threads are tapered and require that taper for proper
leakproof tightening.
--
RogerT
news:ic90nn$kn7$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
It is just a sleeve in the block wall that it goes through. On the other
side of the wall, it is all underground all the way out to the shutoff at
the street. So there is no access to the pipe on the outside without
digging the whole thing up.
RogerT
"dpb" <no...@non.net> wrote in message
news:ic95s3$4k0$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Chances are good that I will just end up building around what is there
rather than actually trying to shorten the pipe and thread the end. But, I
thought I'd check here to see what the options may be for threading it. If
I were going to try to thread the pipe, assuming that I figured a way to do
that, I like the idea of continuing the existing threads and then cutting
off the pipe. However, you pointed out an important issue about the need
for tapered threads. I am not sure how I would be able to achieve that.
RogerT
news:4e156630-161f-44ff...@l20g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
Roger-
cheers
Bob
+++++++++++
I didn't check the silver fitting with a magnet yet, but I will.
I also found this link about threading pipe:
http://www.extremehowto.com/xh/article.asp?article_id=60299 .
Bob F
The issue is not the pipe, but the seal at the next joint. I would not assume
that tightening an old joint with old dried pipe dope would not create a leak.
Evan
>
> Chances are good that I will just end up building around what is there
> rather than actually trying to shorten the pipe and thread the end. But, I
> thought I'd check here to see what the options may be for threading it. If
> I were going to try to thread the pipe, assuming that I figured a way to do
> that, I like the idea of continuing the existing threads and then cutting
> off the pipe. However, you pointed out an important issue about the need
> for tapered threads. I am not sure how I would be able to achieve that.
Is there some important reason those pipes need to be covered
up or built into something ?
That big of a gas service it is better to leave it exposed so that
if you ever start smelling gas you won't need to be digging into
walls to have the pipes sniffed with the leak detector meter...
Since this is a multi-unit dwelling IF you wanted to mess with
this pipe at all, it would behoove you to hire a licensed and
qualified gasfitter so that you won't be liable for anything if
you mess with it yourself and it leaked for whatever reason
down the road...
~~ Evan
tra...@optonline.net
> "DD_BobK" <rkaza...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Good points. It's been decades since I threaded any pipe and I sold
the set of dies I had. Along with your comments on cutting, I'd add
it's critical how it's cut too. It should be cut with a pipe cutter,
so the end is prefectly clean. You can't just cut it with a
reciprocating saw, etc.
I also agree with those that expressed concern for what might be on
the other side that we don't know about, ie another fitting, etc.
Without holding the pipe to keep it from moving, it's possible the
torque could tighten another nearby fitting on the other side and
cause it to start leaking. With gas, especially, you want to be able
to check all fittings that have been moved to make sure there is no
leak.
All factored in, sounds like the most he could shorten it would be a
couple inches and most likely not worth it.
>
> Hex style dies for "threading" pipe are available but they are more
> for thread chasing / thread repair.
> Getting one to starting squarely on a pipe stub would be quite a
> trick. :(
>
> The overall length of the thread; good thread (~3/4) and imperfect
> threads (~1/4") is just a bit over 1".
>
> McMaster Carr has one but its huge, 3.5" across the flats.
>
> 2573A93
> Thread Repair Hex Dies Right Hand,
> 1-1/2"-11-1/2 NPT, 3-1/2" W Across Flats
> In stock at $159.35 Each
>
> Back on your original thread, having taken another look at all the
> photos & the current ones as well,
> I think the fitting in question is some sort of union, with the rusty
> part threading over the shiny part.
>
> Did you ever determine if the shiny part was magnetic? (steel vs
> aluminum)
>
> cheers
> Bob
>
> +++++++++++
>
> I didn't check the silver fitting with a magnet yet, but I will.
>
> I also found this link about threading pipe:http://www.extremehowto.com/xh/article.asp?article_id=60299.- Hide quoted text -
Mr...@totally.invalid
This fitting could well be a dielectric union- provides electrical
interruption to protect the main gas lines from unwanted current flow
which causes corrosion.
Removing this union may be in violation of gas vendor rules. Check
with them first!
Second, as has been mentioned, you may cause a leak in the fittings
out under the fill by all the vibration and torqueing.
--
Mr.E
dpb
...
> ... I like the idea of continuing the existing
> threads and then cutting off the pipe. However, you pointed out an
> important issue about the need for tapered threads. I am not sure how I
> would be able to achieve that.
Don't leave excessive thread length on the stub end--NPT dies are
tapered; the thickness of the die provides the proper taper from start
to end of a full cut.
--
Vic Smith
Best advice right there.
You don't to want mess with that nipple.
Probably gas company property.
No way for you to ensure the joint outside isn't leaking after you
fool around with it.
I wouldn't touch anything from the street el to the wall.
Too much chance of creating a leak outside.
--Vic
dpb
BTW, FYI...
Following is picture of my threader for 1-2" pipe; a single die-head
ratchet handle and head would be somewhat smaller but not by a
tremendous amount...
<http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/65RC-Receding-Threader/EN/index.htm>
Sample single head/die -- good up to 1-1/4" and I think you have 1-1/2"
iirc????
<http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/Enclosed-Ratchet-Threader-Sets/EN/index.htm>
Answer remains it'll take a sizable extra length and as somebody else
noted, you'd be wise to have a backstop wrench to resist the torque that
would take another couple inches besides...
--
bud--
The long distance is so the die starts straight on the pipe (as at least
one person said). Once the thread is started, in the die sets I have
used you can reverse the cutting edges and use the die backwards so the
die face is about at the edge of the cut threads.
I am leery (as other are) that torquing the pipe could produce leaks at
joints on the other side of the wall. The pipe runs through the wall in
a sleeve, which could allow gas leaking on the other side into the basement.
You would gain some space if you could eliminate the mystery fitting
plus the next one and just put an elbow on the supply pipe. I wouldn't
remove them without knowing why they are there. If the mystery fitting
is a dielectric separation it could be on the other side the elbow.
I have a moderately high level of paranoia about gas pipes. Advice from
the gas utility would be nice.
--
bud--
dpb
...
> used you can reverse the cutting edges and use the die backwards so the
> die face is about at the edge of the cut threads.
...
That eliminates the design taper entirely by doing so, though...
>
> I have a moderately high level of paranoia about gas pipes. ...
Which is _a_good_thing_ (tm) and certainly a reason to not do the above
to ensure good fitting threads...for water I'd worry less; for gas I'd
not consider it.
--
DanG
You said that you were told that the silver ring was there because
the line had been sleeved. You can't shorten the pipe without
violating the liner. Our local utility only does the liners on
pipe that is marginal or leaking so I would assume that without
the liner you have nothing.
It would seem to me that you are messing with something that you
have no business touching, and this is to gain what exactly?
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
Keep the whole world singing . . .
"RogerT" <Rog...@kjhgfghj.jkh> wrote in message
news:ic8u8p$52g$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
FatterDumber& Happier Moe
> stop!! hold the presses!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> You said that you were told that the silver ring was there because
> the line had been sleeved. You can't shorten the pipe without
> violating the liner. Our local utility only does the liners on
> pipe that is marginal or leaking so I would assume that without
> the liner you have nothing.
>
> It would seem to me that you are messing with something that you
> have no business touching, and this is to gain what exactly?
>
I'd live with it like it is, you go messing with old pipes and you
are apt to wind up replacing everything out to the main. And if you did
get it closer to the wall how are you going to screw the ells and tees
onto the closer pipe running up the wall? You would need to assemble it
all and then use a union and you need to get a pipe wrench around that.
My suggestion is paint it and find something else to worry about.
Roy
==
Leave it alone lest you blow your house up and your neighbors as well.
The gas company is the ONLY one to modify this pipe...period.
==
aemeijers
If this is UPstream of the gas meter, it is indeed the gas company's
pipe, and should not be messed with. It also needs to be accessible, so
keep that in mind if you box it in. A door, or maybe a bookcase on
casters or something.
--
aem sends...
dpb
> stop!! hold the presses!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> You said that you were told that the silver ring was there because
> the line had been sleeved. You can't shorten the pipe without
> violating the liner. Our local utility only does the liners on
> pipe that is marginal or leaking so I would assume that without
> the liner you have nothing.
>
> It would seem to me that you are messing with something that you
> have no business touching, and this is to gain what exactly?
>
A follow-up added that a plumber looked at one and there was no liner;
the fitting collar in that case was simply being used as a bushing at
present (and by inference, never was actually sleeved altho that's pure
presumption on my part). I'm also presuming that's the particular
building supply line in question.
All said, though, while it's possible perhaps to shorten it a little in
situ, it would be hard to see what could be gained that would be
sufficient to be worth the effort involved.
--
bud--
> bud-- wrote:
> ...
>
>> used you can reverse the cutting edges and use the die backwards so
>> the die face is about at the edge of the cut threads.
> ...
>
> That eliminates the design taper entirely by doing so, though...
>
That is why you reverse the cutting edges in the die. (You also have to
rearrange them so they are in the proper order going around.)
The taper then is cut from the back side of the die. Works fine. Gains
you an inch or two. You do have to start the thread the normal way to
get it straight. I have done it to make a shorter nipple using a pipe
vise and hand threader.
My intent was more to say it could be done. I wouldn't likely mess with
the pipe coming out of the wall. If I did, I would thread against a pipe
wrench, as someone else suggested. Hard to come out ahead of what is
there if you did.
--
bud--
dpb
...
> The taper then is cut from the back side of the die. ...
Will be in wrong direction then.
--
bud--
Nope.
The die sets I have used have been "Rigid" The die has a 'long side'
where you insert the pipe and a 'back side'. There are 4 cutting edges,
that insert into the die from the 'back side'. The large diameter of the
taper on the cutting edges faces the 'long side'.
Imagine Harry Potter comes along, and the cutting edges magically float
out of the 'back side', rotate end-for-end in space, and float back into
the 'back side' of the die. The large diameter of the taper on the
cutting edges now faces the 'back side' of the die. You can cut the
normal tapered thread by putting the pipe in the 'back side'. (But you
are not likely to start the thread right. So you start it first the
normal way.)
It works. I have done it.
--
bud--
RogerT
Thanks. I doubt that I'm even going to attempt this, but it's good to know
how the taper works.
RogerT
than reply to them individually I thought I'd just write a general reply
here.
It does seem unlikely that I'll want to go ahead and attempt to shorten the
incoming pipe at this point, but it's good to know what the options may be
if I do want to go ahead with it. The reason for wanting to shorten the
pipe is that it would give me a way to place the pipe within the wall behind
an access panel and allow me to place a refrigerator on that wall in front
of where the pipe is. As it is now, the pipe will just come through the
wall and go up to the meters, and I will just have to paint the exposed pipe
white to match the wall color and move the refrigerator down to where it
will be beside the pipe and not in front of it. That creates a problem with
the room size and layout, but I may just have to live with that.
If I did decide to go ahead with the idea of shortening the pipe, it's good
to know that there may be a way to do it without having to dig up the whole
underground pipe going out to the street. The shortening and re-threading
process may be a possibility, but I have a hunch that it is something that
the gas company would not be willing to do even if I paid them for their
labor costs to do it. And, I don't know if a licensed plumber would be
willing to attempt it, but that would be to route I would want to go if I
went ahead with the idea. If there were to be any re-threading going on, it
would definitely have to be done in a way that a pipe wrench could be placed
on the incoming pipe to secure it so it did not turn or move during the
process.
There remains the question about exactly what the silver metal
"dielectric"(?) bushing is, and how to make sure that would remain in place
after any pipe shortening. One other possibility would be to consider the
idea that one person mentioned about leaving the silver fitting in place,
not cutting or shortening the incoming pipe, and replacing the next fitting
that now attaches to the silver fitting with a 90 degree L fitting. That
would eliminate any re-threading etc., and it may work to bring the vertical
pipe in just enough so that even though it would not be within the finished
wall, it would be almost flush up against the wall and a refrigerator could
be placed in front of it.
Thanks again for all of the replies and ideas.
"RogerT" <Rog...@kjhgfghj.jkh> wrote in message
news:ic8u8p$52g$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
DD_BobK
Since Bud has given us the trick of "turning the dies around"......
we can add the additional trick of using an internal pipe wrench to
stabilize the nipple as the threads are cut.
Of course the starting length of the shortened nipple would have to be
about 3"+.
With the die set being used in "reverse" configuration and using the
internal pipe wrench, the nipple could be threaded.
As the process unfolds, the die would have to be removed and the
nipple re-cut to remove the over cut threads.
Repeating this process, one could work all the way back to the wall.
Finished product should have the ~7 good threads & ~4 runout threads
plus a bit of clearance between the new fitting face & the wall.
Overall method would yield a threaded nipple about 1.5 to 2"
long......but what an effort to remove 3.5 to 4" !
It's "doable but if things don't go perfectly, someone will be digging
on the other side of the wall. :(
I would definitely leave the whole mess alone & find something where
the cost/benefit ratio is better.
cheers
Bob
Evan
Without seeing the room in person or better photographs of it which
show the entire area I have to say that unequivocally that has to be
the dumbest ass reason on earth to want to move a huge gas pipe,
for the accommodation of a refrigerator... If you wanted to fix the
problem permanently you could ask to have the meters relocated
outside...
Is this basement room utility space ? Why on earth would you
desire/need/require to have a refrigerator located in such a room ?
Gas Meters and Electrical Panels should have a wide berth and
not share the same room with much of anything else whenever
possible...
It sounds a lot like a fool's errand to finish off that room with the
gas meters in it, as anything you put in front of that piping will
have to be removed at the demand of the gas company if they
ever need to inspect that pipe, a small "access panel" will not
do, every segment of piping and each coupling will need to be
within reach for the sniffer leak checker... By having gas service
connected to your building you have granted them an easement
to have the distribution gas piping up to the meter connections
accessible to the gas company for future maintenance and
diagnosis for the gas company to maintain safe utility system...
~~ Evan
dpb
...
I'm holding a set of Ridgid 65-R dies in my hand...forgot that the spare
set was still sitting here on the desk.
Hmm....that's what I thought I recalled--the groove in each die that
fits the internal spline that controls depth during the cut is on the
leading side of the die and there's no provision otherwise. They can't
be inserted into the ratchet assembly in any other orientation.
That's the die set for the Ridgid 1" to 2" ratchet I posted link to
earlier; afaik the Ridgid dies are same design for the others.
A solid die could be flipped over, of course, but then on is cutting w/
the full depth first.
I don't see any way it can be done as said, Bud or no, sorry...
--
DD_BobK
Duane-
Thanks for checking that out. I was too lazy to take my dies apart
plus my 00-R set doesn't go to 1-1/2"
cheers
Bob
bud--
>
> I'm holding a set of Ridgid 65-R dies in my hand...forgot that the spare
> set was still sitting here on the desk.
>
> Hmm....that's what I thought I recalled--the groove in each die that
> fits the internal spline that controls depth during the cut is on the
> leading side of the die and there's no provision otherwise. They can't
> be inserted into the ratchet assembly in any other orientation.
>
> That's the die set for the Ridgid 1" to 2" ratchet I posted link to
> earlier; afaik the Ridgid dies are same design for the others.
What I have is a ratchet handle (111-R) that works with a separate die
head for each size of pipe. With the 2 die heads I have, 1/2 and 3/4,
the cutting edges are easily reversible. It is probably an intentional
feature. I have used larger individual die heads and what I remember is
that they are reversible also, but its been a long time. The heads are
really simple compared to what you have.
Wouldn't be surprised if that doesn't work on your adjustable die. The
only adjustable dies I have used have been on power threading machines
(where die reversal would not be useful).
>
> A solid die could be flipped over, of course, but then on is cutting w/
> the full depth first.
I have a handle for machine screw threads, with hex dies and adjustable
centering on one side. I can reverse the die and thread from the back
side to get closer. If you can reverse a solid pipe die in the handle
you should be able to thread from the back side. (Starting threads
should use some kind of alignment mechanism.)
>
> I don't see any way it can be done as said, Bud or no, sorry...
>
Works fine on my individual die heads.
Sounds like it does not work on your adjustable Rigid.
--
bud--