If it's level and plumb, it must be square, right?
DerbyDad03
Let's say I'm installing a window. I put the window in the rough
opening, shim it up and grab my level.
It's plumb on both sides, and the top and bottom are level.
How could it *not* be square?
For it to be out of square, at least 1 of the 4 readings I took with
my level would be off.
If the window were racked, then the sides wouldn't be plumb.
If one side was longer than the other, then the top wouldn't be level.
If the bottom was longer than the top, then one of the sides wouldn't
be plumb.
I can't think of a scenario where both sides are plumb and the top and
bottom are level but the window isn't square.
What's the point in checking for square?
dpb
...
> I can't think of a scenario where both sides are plumb and the top and
> bottom are level but the window isn't square.
>
> What's the point in checking for square?
Sanity and helps ensures don't have bad level or misread it or, or, or, ...
--
RicodJour
It's the quickest way to check squareness. Your level could have a
bad vial. Your eyeballs might not be square to the level in one
position. There's no interpretation required. Lots of reasons.
R
ransley
I had a hack put in windows and sliders, after I paid him it rained
and they leaked and he wouldnt come back. I called the window co,
Anderson, and they said a rep could come out. The first thing he did
was check square on the slider and told me it was out of spec. He said
they allow up to 1/8" out of plumb,level, or square and that I had no
warranty and should have my windows reset that failed. I see your
point on level, but the rep first checked square with a tape measure
as that is a measurement that can be used to fail or pass a warranty.
He said I would be suprised how many fail. After seeing my hack work I
know many are installed wrong and have no warranty from day 1.
Oren
If the frame is bowed in at the center? IOW, seeing "daylight" between
the level and jambs/frame.
>What's the point in checking for square?
For correct operation of the window (warranty). No binding, "sticky"
operation of sliders, etc.
It's hard to square an 8' door with a 6' level.
Gordon Shumway
<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
Consider that two opposing sides have been shimmed too much and they
are not straight. Consider that the bow toward the rough opening.
If you check with a level they would be level (or plumb) but the level
would only contact in two places rather than the entire surface. This
situation fulfills your parameters but the window would not be a
square (or rectangle) because two of the sides would be curved.
Did I win?
Gordon Shumway
What color do Smurfs become when they hold their breath?
Van Chocstraw
It makes you look smart.
Metspitzer
<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
Measure twice and cut once.
JIMMIE
>
> - Show quoted text -
I always measure the diagonals to make sure its square. For a prefab
window they should be dead nuts on. Let's see, measure measure bump
bump measure measure bump measure measure. Its that easy.
Jimmie
Red Green
news:xpGdnYzPMr4FF2HX...@giganews.com:
Winner! Best answer.
F. Ghasted
"DerbyDad03" <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in message
news:e7a582c7-7041-433a...@p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
: Why do we check for square?
You don't wear a belt with your suspenders?
Oren
<Mark_R...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>> What's the point in checking for square?
>
>I had a hack put in windows and sliders, after I paid him it rained
>and they leaked and he wouldnt come back. I called the window co,
>Anderson, and they said a rep could come out. The first thing he did
>was check square on the slider and told me it was out of spec. He said
>they allow up to 1/8" out of plumb,level, or square and that I had no
>warranty and should have my windows reset that failed. I see your
>point on level, but the rep first checked square with a tape measure
>as that is a measurement that can be used to fail or pass a warranty.
>He said I would be suprised how many fail. After seeing my hack work I
>know many are installed wrong and have no warranty from day 1.
Some Andersen patio door frames are assembled on the floor at the job
site. A " tape measure" check is made then for square. Trick is
picking the frame up and not twist or not torque it, putting it into
the RO.
Open a sash slightly - note the reveal between the frame and sash -
top and bottom. How wide is that gap? If way off fix the window.
Hacks get paid by piece work.
ransley
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:12:10 -0800 (PST), ransley
>
I first got worried when I saw his level was only about a foot long,
then I got more worried when he worked like he was on crack as the
windows flew into place, after it rained I knew I really screwed up
since I had just paid him and I had alot of leaks.
Oren
I've mentioned here before that if a window/door installer without
numerous levels arrives - send him packing.
I would put my own window in before I turned a hack loose with a "foot
long" level :-//
Jules
> Measure twice and cut once.
Measure six times, get different answers each time, cut randomly, make
good with expanding foam...
;-)
Jules
> I first got worried when I saw his level was only about a foot long,
> then I got more worried when he worked like he was on crack as the
> windows flew into place, after it rained I knew I really screwed up
> since I had just paid him and I had alot of leaks.
At least they'll leak both ways, so once your house fills up you don't
need to open the windows to let the water out again. Or something.
Wayne Whitney
> Why do we check for square?
Your tape measure is alot more accurate than your bubble level.
Wayne
Oren
<hot...@themarket.net> wrote:
>: What's the point in checking for square?
>
>You don't wear a belt with your suspenders?
>
Try these transom windows for install. (get them level across four
windows).
pic:
http://www.ownerbuilderbook.com/images/journal/full/7623.jpg
No suspenders needed.
RicodJour
Level the bottom windows, then just use a spacer block - no big deal.
Or use a Robolaser. I love the remote. Spinning lights make me snap
out like in The Andromeda Strain. ;)
R
DerbyDad03
wrote:
Measure with a micrometer
Mark with chalk
Cut with an Ax
SteveB
"DerbyDad03" <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in message
news:e7a582c7-7041-433a...@p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
A square doesn't have any degree of error. With a level, you can get the
bubble close, but to get it perfect and end up with a perfect 90 is not
common. In any engineering problem, take it to the extreme. What if you
were to lay our four lines, two one hundred feet long, and two two hundred
feet long, using only level and plumb. I bet it would be inches off at the
diagonal. And even if you do use a square, the diagonal is going to be the
only mathematically exact correct thing. Your square can be bent, but not
visibly.
Unless, you use a welder's square, then all bets are off.
Steve
Oren
I was thinking a non-fancy method.
Will your "spacer" work for framing mistakes in the transom ROs?
Me! A ladder and a level, measuring tape and set the first window.
Then move on.
Note in the pic the first window set was on the right.
RicodJour
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:39:47 -0800 (PST), RicodJour
>
>
>
> <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
> >On Nov 12, 8:34 pm, Oren <O...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:40:13 -0600, "F. Ghasted"
>
> >> <hot...@themarket.net> wrote:
> >> >: What's the point in checking for square?
>
> >> >You don't wear a belt with your suspenders?
>
> >> Try these transom windows for install. (get them level across four
> >> windows).
>
> >> pic:
>
> >>http://www.ownerbuilderbook.com/images/journal/full/7623.jpg
>
> >Level the bottom windows, then just use a spacer block - no big deal.
> >Or use a Robolaser. I love the remote. Spinning lights make me snap
> >out like in The Andromeda Strain. ;)
>
> >R
>
> I was thinking a non-fancy method.
A water level also works well.
> Will your "spacer" work for framing mistakes in the transom ROs?
Sure, why not? The RO is larger than the window so there is some
play.
> Me! A ladder and a level, measuring tape and set the first window.
> Then move on.
>
> Note in the pic the first window set was on the right.
With a rotating laser you can mark level on the wall before you
install the window. Wouldn't matter the order the windows were set.
A water level works around corners.
R
Larry Fishel
than a $100 level"...
Oren
I follow what you say. On some occasions I sat the window back on the
ground.
What's wrong?!! The dang RO is to small.
Bring back the framer :-)
Oren
What happens, if we say a carpenter's square is not square? (can be
fixed, btw)
There is a way to check levels for level.
I forget....
DerbyDad03
>
> - Show quoted text -
re: "Consider that two opposing sides have been shimmed too much and
they are not straight. Consider that the bow toward the rough
opening."
How could shimming the 2 opposing sides cause them to bow outward
toward the rough opening? I'm not arguing, I'm asking.
re "This situation fulfills your parameters but the window would not
be a square (or rectangle) because two of the sides would be curved."
If you ran into this situation, don't you think that you would notice
the gap between the frame and the level? I'm not arguing, I'm asking.
Wayne Whitney
> How could shimming the 2 opposing sides cause them to bow outward
> toward the rough opening? I'm not arguing, I'm asking.
If you shim too much at the corners, you could cause that. Or perhaps
the window frame was bowed to begin with.
> If you ran into this situation, don't you think that you would
> notice the gap between the frame and the level? I'm not arguing, I'm
> asking.
Yes, although you have to know to check that.
The main point is that a tape measure is alot more accurate than a
bubble level. If the two diagonals are off by 1/8", I don't think
that could be detected with a bubble level (depending on the size of
the window).
Wayne
Smitty Two
<587251b0-3513-4e6b...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>
> re: "Consider that two opposing sides have been shimmed too much and
> they are not straight. Consider that the bow toward the rough
> opening."
>
> How could shimming the 2 opposing sides cause them to bow outward
> toward the rough opening? I'm not arguing, I'm asking.
>
> re "This situation fulfills your parameters but the window would not
> be a square (or rectangle) because two of the sides would be curved."
>
> If you ran into this situation, don't you think that you would notice
> the gap between the frame and the level? I'm not arguing, I'm asking.
I really think it boils down to checking the same thing twice using
different tools/methods, which is common practice in a lot of things we
do. Call it redundancy or whatever. Your original premise, per subject
line, is of course completely true.
RicodJour
Which is one of the reasons I like electronic levels. They're easy to
recalibrate, have readings to 1/10 of a degree, have various reading
units for different applications, you don't have to worry about your
line of sight, there is a hold button so you can take a reading and
then move the level to where you can see the reading, etc.
R
DD_BobK
Per Wayne's comment a 36" x 36" window where one of the diagonal is
off by 1/8"
the corner angle would be off by .3 deg (as I guess would the top or
side as well).
Can .3 deg be resolved with a bubble level?
I know my Smart level displays to .1 deg but how accurately I dont
know.
A framing square would catch this small error.
cheers
Bob
DerbyDad03
>
> - Show quoted text -
OK, so if the window is checked square by a tape measure, why would I
need to check it for level and plumb? ;-)
HeyBub
> Why do we check for square?
>
> Let's say I'm installing a window. I put the window in the rough
> opening, shim it up and grab my level.
>
> It's plumb on both sides, and the top and bottom are level.
>
> How could it *not* be square?
>
> For it to be out of square, at least 1 of the 4 readings I took with
> my level would be off.
>
> If the window were racked, then the sides wouldn't be plumb.
>
> If one side was longer than the other, then the top wouldn't be level.
>
> If the bottom was longer than the top, then one of the sides wouldn't
> be plumb.
>
> I can't think of a scenario where both sides are plumb and the top and
> bottom are level but the window isn't square.
>
If the sides are not consistent with the wall, that is, one side is indented
in the hole, the windows may measure square but not BE "square" as we
normally think of the definition. Taking it to the extreme: suppose the
window was rotated on its long axis by 90� - it would still be plumb by
every measurement, but wouldn't be "square".
DD_BobK
A set of cross corner measurements will tell you if the factory window
is square prior to install or after install but it wont give you the
relationship of the window to the "house"
After installation the window could have been knocked out of square so
a corner to corner re-check would be advisable
OR
it could have been installed "clocked" slightly off but still be
square to itself. So a plumb or level mesaurement would catch that.
I think its a case of multiple views, measures, techniques to get to
the same result...... a true, square properly installed window.
Bouncing from one technique or tool to another is gives multiple
checks.......when my buddy & I do door or window installs we do
mulitple checks until we're satisfied and get to "good enough / shoot
in it".
Performing multiple checks gives a chance to find a possible error.
I suppose one could determine the minimum number & type of checks to
do but at least for me its......measure twice (3 times?) cut once.
cheers
Bob
Bill
> What's the point in checking for square?
>
Install a few sliding glass doors or a few french doors and you will be
checking for square all over the place!
Or installing new tiles on a floor and getting to the corners. Where two
walls meet in the corner can be interesting if the walls are not square!
As for the window, if it is not installed square, you could have problems
with the window opening/closing properly...
SteveB
DerbyDad03
I'm wasn't asking about problems that could occur with a window that
is not square.
I was asking how a window that is plumb on both sides and level top
and bottom would *not* be square.
The same goes for a french or sliding door.
I've done windows, I've done sliding doors. The thing is, after I'm
made sure they were plumb and level, I'd check them for square and
they always were.
As others have said, that extra check certainly can't hurt anything.
aemeijers
people that look out the window will get seasick?
--
aem sends....