Replacing a FPE Panel
sam...@hotmail.com
house. The house was bulit in 1965 and the breaker box is a Federal
Pacific, which can be pretty dangerous from what I have read. This is
a fairly new problem (last 2-3 months) and has been progressively
getting worse. I had an electrican out to look at it and here is what
he said:
1) There are 2 breakers that are getting overloaded and not
tripping. Basically, the entire panel must be replaced because of its
age, some odd wiring the previous owners had done, and the fact there
is no room to put an additional breaker.
2) to do any work on the panel, everythign up to the panel must be up
to current code (Anything beyond the panel is grandfathered).
3) Because of that the original meter (circa 1965) must be replaced,
as well as a grounding bar, and installing ground to the water line.
4) The current connection to the house must be replaced (It is
currently sagging off the end of the house, so they want to install a
stand pipe out of the roof for the main connection.
I have found agreement that just replacing the panel would only run
$1000 to $2000. My question is if all the other stuff is necessary,
and if it justifies the $4000 total estimate? I am in the metro St.
Louis area.
PS. I know that someone will say that the utility company should
replace the meter, but ours is only has to provide you with an
appropriate one, you still have to pay for it and its installation.
dpb
Don't know about the whole front end thing, that sounds a little
extreme, but your jurisdiction might require it. I'd ask the building
code people if your understanding is, in fact, correct.
Overall, for that work doesn't sound too out of line on pricing.
If it were mine, I'd get a couple of new/replacement breakers for the
specific ones and swap them out right now and then pursue the bigger
job. While the box is open, if the electrician didn't, I'd check the
connection(s) on each and every one as well.
hal...@aol.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
ONLY the FPE STAB LOCK breakers are the bad ones, earlier FPE panels
were fine and safe.
you might try replacing just the 2 breakers, how do you know they
arent tripping on overload?
John Grabowski
<sam...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1175279726....@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Since your service is falling off the house I would say it is necessary to
replace. Your electrician is correct about updating the grounding electrode
system to the present code. Would you really want the 1965 ground
protecting your house from lightning?
Your best bet is to get several quotes from other contractors before hiring
anyone.
Chris Friesen
> ONLY the FPE STAB LOCK breakers are the bad ones, earlier FPE panels
> were fine and safe.
Also, apparently it was only the breakers manufactured in the US that
had problems. The Canadian breakers were made to a different design.
Around here (Saskatchewan, Canada) about 90% of the panels (including
new ones) are Federal Pioneer StabLok. Doesn't seem to be causing any
issues.
Chris
hal...@aol.com
Futher I doubt a 1965 install was stab lock. He probably has a earlier
design.
RBM
with the condition of your service equipment. If it's in poor condition, it
should be upgraded, and like John Grabowski said, completely. I can't tell
if those prices are reasonable for your area, but get a few estimates and
compare
<sam...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1175279726....@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Dave Martindale
>Also, apparently it was only the breakers manufactured in the US that
>had problems. The Canadian breakers were made to a different design.
Do you have a reference for that? The Canadian ones were manufactured
in a different place, but I haven't seen anything conclusively showing
they were at all different in design.
I have a 1989-vintage house with FPE panel in Burnaby BC. After
reading about the FPE problems in the USA, I decided to test the
breakers myself. (I did this with an artificial load, *not* by
overloading the house wiring - the latter would be a really bad idea).
At double the rated load (e.g. 30 A through a 15 A breaker) the breaker
ought to trip within 2 minutes. Most single-pole breakers tripped in
30-40 seconds, most double-pole breakers within about 70 seconds. But
there were 4 out of 20 breakers that were way out of limits - one 15A
breaker didn't trip after 5 minutes at 30+ amps.
I replaced those breakers, and the new ones behaved normally.
Now, I don't know if this was a manufacturing defect or not. There's
some rust inside the panel indicating that water got in at some point
in the past. It's possible that all of the bad breakers were fine when
new, and were damaged by water.
On the other hand, I see no problem with the panel itself. The busbars
seem to be one piece, without all the small bits handling high current
that have caused problems in some FPE panels.
Dave
RBM
any information regarding what the differences are between the "Pacific" and
"Pioneer" breakers. I am by no means a fan of FPE equipment, but it's hard
to believe if they were the fire hazard people believe them to be, they
wouldn't be recalled
"Dave Martindale" <da...@cs.ubc.ca> wrote in message
news:euk08r$4mj$1...@swain.cs.ubc.ca...
Bennett Price
more breakers, a small subpanel can be installed that will add extra
breakers - assuming everything else is OK, in particular that you have
sufficiently large service coming to the house.
dpb
> If the full panel is OK (I'd check FPE's website) but you just need some
> more breakers, a small subpanel can be installed that will add extra
> breakers - assuming everything else is OK, in particular that you have
> sufficiently large service coming to the house.
FPE is no more and hasn't been for quite some time now -- the Stab-Lok
breaker fiasco took them under as an entity.
The product line is now under Schneider Electric as Federal Pioneer
which was in my understanding a Canadian subsidiary or partner company
to Federal Pacific in days of yore. They (Schneider/Pioneer) do have
a site but need to look at Schneider to find it easily -- a google on
"FPE" or "Federal Pacific" typically turns up the myriad of links to
the Stab-Lok problems or folks selling recycled breakers on eBay.
The Stab-Lok homepage at Schneider is at (although it's dated 2001
which may be telling)...
http://www.schneider-electric.ca/www/en/products/stab-lok/index.htm
I looked a little but didn't find any reference to UL listing or
whatever is Canadian equivalent mentioned. Also noted that the
product brochure is dated 1996. Not sure about distribution these
days, haven't looked recently.
Well, on a lark I sent an e-mail technical service request asking on
current status of Stab-lok breakers -- I'm guessing from the site
they're nearly if not entirely defunct but will wait to hear back and
will report on result...
Chris Friesen
> Chris Friesen <cbf...@mail.usask.ca> writes:
>>Also, apparently it was only the breakers manufactured in the US that
>>had problems. The Canadian breakers were made to a different design.
> Do you have a reference for that? The Canadian ones were manufactured
> in a different place, but I haven't seen anything conclusively showing
> they were at all different in design.
I'm going mostly off stuff I found online. Here's one example:
http://www.selfhelpforums.com/showthread.php?t=1116
Chris
Bud--
> My understanding as well is that Federal Pioneer has not come forward with
> any information regarding what the differences are between the "Pacific" and
> "Pioneer" breakers. I am by no means a fan of FPE equipment, but it's hard
> to believe if they were the fire hazard people believe them to be, they
> wouldn't be recalled
>
Reliance Electric bought FPE and discovered that FPE fraudulently
supplied test information to UL. UL then delisted most of the FPE line.
Reliance Electric sued the seller of FPE and setteled for about 43
million dollars to cover future liability. There was recently a class
action suit in New Jersey - don't know if it is over or what result.
http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm
has a lot of information about FPE, much of it derived from an
investigation by the US Consumer Product Safety Commission. It includes
information on the limited testing done for the CPSC. Two pole breakers
may not trip (can jam and never trip) if the current on both poles is
not the same (like ground fault). (Service disconnect size breakers were
not tested.) And single pole breakers may never trip at 135% of rating.
Also bus failures which cannot be seen as they are developing without
panel disassembly. Potential problem busses are multipart screwed
together, not one piece as in Dave's post. The problem probably covers
the 1965-1980 time period although I think this link says, like you and
Dave did, that the current Canadian manufacturer won't say what changes
have been made to the line. But Chris sounds like Canadian ones are OK.
One reason the CPSC investigation was dropped was the high cost of
testing required to allow regulatory action vs. the size of the CPSC
funding. This was probably also the start of the Reagan years which were
not favorable to regulation. And perhaps most important, the CPSC had
tried to regulate aluminum wire and in the predictable industry lawsuit
the court ruled aluminum wire was not a consumer item and thus could not
be regulated by the CPSC. Circuit breakers would probably have also not
been under the CPSC.
Another source:
http://www.codecheck.com/pdf/electrical/240overcurrent/FPE%20Article%20from%20DH%20-%20Nov2003.pdf
includes additional problems with FPE panels. I think this link, and
maybe inspect-ny, show pictures of FPE breakers to identify which ones
may be suspect.
--
bud--
RBM
been involved. After all, it's their label stuck on this equipment. And what
does that say for the U.L. label in general?
"Bud--" <remove....@isp.com> wrote in message
news:5b9a$460f5929$4213ebcc$15...@DIALUPUSA.NET...
Bud--
> Thanks Bud, I've read those sites. I'd like to know why the U.L. have not
> been involved. After all, it's their label stuck on this equipment. And what
> does that say for the U.L. label in general?
>
My take would be UL was scammed by FPE. When UL found out, the scammers
were gone and 'FPE' was owned by Reliance. I don't know what UL could do
but revoke the UL listing, which they did. Maybe UL could sue for fraud?
People should have gone to jail. Or maybe if someone dies in an
unnecessary fire the scammers should be tried for manslaughter?
The CPSC could have required a recall but didn't for the reasons noted.
Long ago I had a service call to a house. The owner and 2 suits wanted
the FPE breaker for a specific kitchen outlet removed without tripping
it - the suits collected it. Turns out a coffee maker plugged into the
outlet caught fire - never heard what happened. But ligigating this
stuff is expensive. Would also be interesting what happened to the NJ
class action suit. Class action is more effective, but it hits Reliance,
not the scammers. At least Reliance got $43 million for future liability
- I suppose that is some justice.
It is appaling what some businesses get away with. I sometimes think
there should be an independent goon squad. And I'm am sometimes
surprised, with the number of people going through experiences like
Iraq, that 'independent' solutions don't occurr.
--
bud--
RBM
awkward position in real estate transactions, when I'm asked if the stuff is
a "fire hazard". I'm not the authority, I can only copy info from the net,
to pass it along, but it would sure be nice to have something definitive. I
can't say from my experience though, that I've seen any more FPE failures,
then I have from breakers made by GE, Bryant, or ITE. The biggest problem I
find with FPE is keeping them stuck into the buss. Just a terrible design
"Bud--" <remove....@isp.com> wrote in message
news:575cd$46102045$4213eb35$29...@DIALUPUSA.NET...
dpb
> In downstate NY, FPE garbage is all over the place. I find myself in a very
> awkward position in real estate transactions, when I'm asked if the stuff is
> a "fire hazard". I'm not the authority, I can only copy info from the net,
> to pass it along, but it would sure be nice to have something definitive. I
> can't say from my experience though, that I've seen any more FPE failures,
> then I have from breakers made by GE, Bryant, or ITE. The biggest problem I
> find with FPE is keeping them stuck into the buss. Just a terrible design
...
Personal opinion is there is a somewhat heightened probability of
failure w/ FPE Stab-lok breakers but that the web sites tend to make
the situation as much more prevalent and extreme than it is.
What was the real crime in the whole deal as far as I'm concerned was
the apparent falsification of test data from FPE supplied to UL.
Whether UL has done anything to their processes to ensure higher
likelihood such falsification or under-reporting (that is, reporting
on successful tests and not unsuccessful ones, for example) I don't
know, but one would hope so.
As for the actual design, I've a bunch of these panels on the farm and
have never had any indications of any problem including never seems to
have been an issue of them not staying in place on the buss --
assuming the cover in on and in place properly, anyway. When/if I
upgrade service, I'm sure that will be one thing that will change, but
it's not high on the priority list and I don't lose sleep at night
worrying about them.
dpb
...
> Well, on a lark I sent an e-mail technical service request asking on
> current status of Stab-lok breakers -- I'm guessing from the site
> they're nearly if not entirely defunct but will wait to hear back and
> will report on result...
OK, here's the query and response from Schneider/Federal Pioneer...
------------------------------------------------------
Original Message Follows: 03/31/2007
------------------------------------------------------
Are Pioneer Electric Stab-lok circuit breakers still manufactured and
available in US? If so, are they UL listed/approved (or equivalent
Canadian)?
Thank you for your assistance...
And the reply...
Thank you for your inquiry.
Please contact Connecticut Electric.
They offer replacement breakers which are UL rated.
http://www.connecticut-electric.com/
Thanks for your interest in Schenider Electric.
Tim McNamara
Product Support
Looking at the site, Connecticut Electric is the parent of UBI, the
replacement breaker manufacturer of various manufacturers. They do
offer a reasonably full line of replacement breakers to fit FPE Stab-
lok panels which carry the UL Classified label and thre's a product
info sheet that lists the particular testing protocols the breakers
are to have passed. It appears Federal Pioneer isn't selling their
product in the US.
(Dad left a passle of NOS from the last major work he did when put in
the feed mill and feed pens so I've been using those for any new
circuits I've run so not had any to deal with finding replacements...)
Dave Martindale
>Two pole breakers
>may not trip (can jam and never trip) if the current on both poles is
>not the same (like ground fault).
It would take a ground fault to do this on a pure 240 V circuit. But
feeding a split 15 A circuit (Edison circuit) with a two-pole 15 A
breaker is extremely common in Canada. That's the normal way to wire
kitchen outlets, with upper and lower sockets of each duplex outlet
on opposite sides of the two-pole circuit (but there may be multiple
duplex outlets on the one double circuit).
And in my house, a bunch of the general lighting and outlet circuits
are also wired this way. It lets the electrician run a single 14-3
cable to the first junction box, then split that into two 14-2 circuits
for adjacent rooms. Two-pole breakers are required so that if you find
a breaker that interrupts *some* power in a junction box, you've
switched off *all* the power in that junction box even if two circuits
are present.
In both of these cases, the loads are all 120 V and the currents in the
two sides of the two-pole breaker are completely independent. I can
easily overload the one side and have no current at all through the
other side just by plugging in a toaster and an electric kettle to the
correct pair of outlets in the kitchen.
Dave
Dave Martindale
>Personal opinion is there is a somewhat heightened probability of
>failure w/ FPE Stab-lok breakers but that the web sites tend to make
>the situation as much more prevalent and extreme than it is.
Of course, you don't hear about houses where everything works properly.
However, breakers are a somewhat odd case because they are seldom
tested. You depend on them to protect the wiring in your house from
overheating, and to trip rapidly in case of a short, but you've probably
never tested more than one or two of your breakers under those
conditions, and probably never will. Nor can you test them safely using
your house wiring for the load, and you probably won't find an
electrician to test them for you safely.
So you only hear about the rare cases where there was an overload or
short, *and* the breaker failed to trip, *and* it caused a fire or other
damage.
Dave
Dave Martindale
>http://www.schneider-electric.ca/www/en/products/stab-lok/index.htm
>I looked a little but didn't find any reference to UL listing or
>whatever is Canadian equivalent mentioned. Also noted that the
>product brochure is dated 1996. Not sure about distribution these
>days, haven't looked recently.
New breakers are still readily available in Canada. The name may be FPL
instead of FPE. They are made by Schneider Electric, and available in
any Home Depot (among others). I bought 4 of them within the last month
to replace the ones in my panel that did not behave properly.
(I tested the new breakers, and all of them tripped in a reasonable
time at 200% load).
Dave
dpb
> "dpb" <dpboza...@swko.net> writes:
> >http://www.schneider-electric.ca/www/en/products/stab-lok/index.htm
> >I looked a little but didn't find any reference to UL listing or
> >whatever is Canadian equivalent mentioned. Also noted that the
> >product brochure is dated 1996. Not sure about distribution these
> >days, haven't looked recently.
>
> New breakers are still readily available in Canada. The name may be FPL
> instead of FPE. They are made by Schneider Electric, and available in
Not much help for those of us in the US and not within driving
distance... :)
See my followup -- there is a 3rd-party source in the US, UBI a
subsidiary/brand(?) of Connecticut Electric. The local electric
supply outfit hadn't heard of them and didn't have any cross-
reference.
Out of curiousity, what kind of pricing was on the Federal Pioneer
replacements? The UBI ones seemed pricey to me, but a guess that
would be expected for a low-volume single-source item.
dpb
OK, shoulda looked at HD site first! :) They do have limited
selection. Since don't have either BORG local, no idea on whether
they're stocked or not. Pricing looks more reasonable as well for
what they carry -- only 15,20A single-pole, 30,50A double-pole. No
GFCI, etc., ... But, that's the most common and is a "get by" for the
most part.
Dave Martindale
>> Out of curiousity, what kind of pricing was on the Federal Pioneer
>> replacements? The UBI ones seemed pricey to me, but a guess that
>> would be expected for a low-volume single-source item.
>OK, shoulda looked at HD site first! :) They do have limited
>selection. Since don't have either BORG local, no idea on whether
>they're stocked or not. Pricing looks more reasonable as well for
>what they carry -- only 15,20A single-pole, 30,50A double-pole. No
>GFCI, etc., ... But, that's the most common and is a "get by" for the
>most part.
Not sure what prices you saw on the web site, but I paid CDN$9.60 for
single-pole 15 A and $17.70 for double-poll 15 A. I didn't buy any
other sizes and didn't pay attention to other prices, but I remember
them being comparable to other common breakers like Square D (which is
also made by Schneider Electric!). The store did have lots of stock -
as someone else pointed out FPL is still sold new here.
I also remember HD did have StabLok GFCI and AFCI breakers, so they can
be had. But they're quite expensive ($70 or $80). Also, a single pole
is "full width" (1 inch) instead of "half width" (1/2 inch) and has to
mount in a position in the panel where the two half-slots it takes up
are on the same phase. I briefly considered installing an AFCI for the
main bedroom outlets, as is now required by code for new construction,
but it wouldn't be a straightforward swap because of the size, and I
have almost no positions left in the panel (it's only a 100 A panel).
Dave
Dave Martindale
>> Do you have a reference for that? The Canadian ones were manufactured
>> in a different place, but I haven't seen anything conclusively showing
>> they were at all different in design.
>I'm going mostly off stuff I found online. Here's one example:
>http://www.selfhelpforums.com/showthread.php?t=1116
Ok. Very interesting info.
As I said, the innards of my panel had got wet at one time. From the
water signs, it looks like the left column of breakers were wet while
the right column stayed dry. All four of the bad or questionable
breakers I found were in the left column, none in the right. So it's
entirely possible that all of the breakers were once good, and the
water caused corrosion or other damage inside some of the breakers that
got wet.
I've still got the bad breakers. When I get more time I'll drill out
the rivets and see whether there is visible corrosion in the
mechanisms.
Dave
Thomas Horne
higher rate of failure to open on a fault to ground. This problem is
especially severe in the double pole breakers. An FPE breaker of the
affected type is unlikely to open on it's second actuation, if it's
first actuation was a ground fault, even if the second event is a
balanced overload. When I was questioned on this by a shop rocket know
it all I asked if he thought his work was good enough to sign. He said
yes. I then began to weld his name into the strut supporting the new
work he had done using a conductor run off of an FPE breaker in the
preexisting panel. All he said was "OK I see your point."
--
Tom Horne
dpb
Home Depot prices are $18-20 US for single pole, $40 for double for
the Connecticut Electric FPEs. They had both configurations for the
single pole but not GFCI, etc.
But, I've lived for 60+ yrs and never had a GFCI yet nor a need that I
could determine, so doubt I'll start now! :) (Of course, again, this
isn't new construction and what new work I'll be doing isn't
residential, but rather farm outbuildings/shop, anyway).
Thanks for the info. Chris forwarded some other info off-group so
have another alternative when do actually get that far.
Dave Martindale
>But, I've lived for 60+ yrs and never had a GFCI yet nor a need that I
>could determine, so doubt I'll start now! :) (Of course, again, this
>isn't new construction and what new work I'll be doing isn't
>residential, but rather farm outbuildings/shop, anyway).
I do see the point of GFCIs in wet locations. Our house has two GFCIs;
both are the inexpensive outlet type, not the expensive panel breaker
type. One is installed in the ensuite bathroom, with the outlets in
two other bathrooms daisy chained from it so all are protected. The
other GFCI is an outdoor outlet at the rear of the house. There are
two other outdoor outlets and again they are daisy chained from the
GFCI outlet so all are protected.
On the other hand, AFCIs are more dubious. As I understand it, the
existing ones only protect against parallel arcs. For example, you
have an extension cord in the bedroom (the only place AFCIs are now
required) and regularly roll the bed over it so it gets frayed. *If*
hot touches neutral or ground, the resulting high-current arc will trip
the AFCI.
But I don't have any frayed extension cords anywhere (I fix them or
throw them out first) and I don't roll the bed over any cords. So I
can't see this type of AFCI being much use for their high price.
Dave
Bud--
GFCIs had the ground fault trip on the side of a regular breaker with
the trip mechanism the same as 2 pole. Speculation, but I don't think it
has been eastablished, that GGCIs might have the same unbalanced 2-pole
trip problem (the trip is always unbalanced).
Last time I looked at the information sites, large breakers had not been
tested. One might wonder about service disconnects which are likely to
have an unbalanced trip.
--
bud--
mc...@earthlink.net
1. There is a 2007 Federal Court ruling Manoma Realty Management versus Federal Pacific Electric where Justice Julie Sweeney ruled that there is no such thing as a Federal Pacific breaker that works. She ruled FPE to be flat-as-a-dead-snake liable for a year 2000 fire that involved defective breakers that FPE knew were defective when they manufactured them in 1960-1962. She extended the statute of limitations from 6 years to at least 41 years in New York state.
This court ruling also applies to the commercial bolted-in versions of the Stabloks which have the same inherently defective design. This also applies to the earlier multibreakers that were made by FPE and the two predecessor companies which were Federal Electric Equipment and Colt's Patented Fire Arms. Note: In 1942 Uncle Sam forced Colt to sell their Noark(R) electrical equipment division to the Federal Pacific Fuse Company forming Federal Electric Equipment which later became FPE.
Because of this ruling, Groupe Schneider tore up the brand name labeling agreements that Federal Pioneer in British Columbia had with American Circuit Breaker Corporation and Unique Breakers Inc.
There is also a federal trademark infringement judgement that prohibits importing Federal Pioneer Stab-loks into the USA.
The only legitimate spare parts that a US citizen can purchase from Federal Pioneer are SquareD and Merin Gerin industrial breakers that are retooled and labeled for retrofit use in FPE industrial switchboards.
2. Federal Pacific admitted several times to the US Patent office in the 1952 to 1981 time period and possibly beyond that the Stabloks, the commercial bolted in versions of the stabloks, and the multibreakers on which the Stabloks are based DID NOT WORK RIGHT and had serious design deficiencies.
3. Reliance, which wads the parent company, admitted to the Securities and Exchange Commission that FPE had defrauded Underwriters Laboratories.
4. In 1956 Underwriters Laboratories sued FPE over the matter that FPE was counterfeiting UL labels and applied them to circuit breakers and some other products that did not meet UL standards and had not been inspected or testing witnessed by UL inspectors. In 1957 FPE agreed to a bench judgement against them.
Michael R. Cole, Ohio Elec. Contractor Lic. No. EL45,008
605 North High Street
Personal Mail #609
Columbus, Ohio 43215
Cellular: 216-832-7024
Email: mc...@earthlink.net
bob haller
i replaced a bunch of breakers with new expensive ones from home depot.
I should add I could of killed myself one day repairing a machine i service for work.
the trouble report said the key lock switch was hard to turn. i casually tried moving the lock switch and ended up across the room on the floor, looking up at cieling:(. i provided a excellent hand to hand power line . he keylock switch which switched 120 volt power line voltage had a internal short which powered the body of the lock and key itself. the keyock isnt grounded since its in a plastic bezel. i reported the safety issue first to the machines manufacturer, then when they didnt address it to UL, who also didnt care.
UL should of jumped on that.
Uncle Monster
[8~{} Uncle Zap Monster
bob haller
UL should of done something, but didnt.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
switch was likely bogus - and going after the chinese for that takes
more resources than UL has available - and the Chinese know it!!!
bob haller
UL should at least follow up with devices they approved that have a ignificant risk of killing a user