convert freezer to refrigerator questions

[buck...@ourgang.com]

I have an upright Gibson freezer and would like to convert it to a
refrigerator. I am going to start making cheese and need a "Cheese Cave".
I need to maintain a temp in low 50's to 55 and humidity of 80%. I guess i
need some kind of controller for the temp? I think I can control the
humidity with open containers of water. The freezer will be in the basement
so it would be nice if I can have a way to read temp and humidity without
going into basement. any advise appreciated.

[DerbyDad03]

This guy did it to a GE chest freezer. I assume it would be very similar
with a Gibson.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NdmkGIGPXU8

As far as remote monitoring, there are lots of indoor-outdoor thermometers
available that will also give the humidity.

Here's just one example.

http://www.amazon.com/AcuRite-00611A2-Wireless-Thermometer-Humidity/dp/B001B35APA

[DerbyDad03]

I just thought of something that might be an issue.

The remote sensor for the thermometer I linked to may not be able to
transmit through the case of the freezer. You may need to find something
with a probe. Taylor makes cooking thermometers with a probe, cable and
remote receiver. (I have one for grilling) However, they don't measure
humidity. You'll need a probe or probes that do both.

[micky]

On Fri, 11 Apr 2014 16:39:26 GMT, buck...@ourgang.com wrote:

>I have an upright Gibson freezer and would like to convert it to a
>refrigerator. I am going to start making cheese and need a "Cheese Cave".
>I need to maintain a temp in low 50's to 55 and humidity of 80%. I guess i
>need some kind of controller for the temp?

Well, you can buy a refrigerator thermostat. I had to replace mine and
I think it was between 10 and 20 dollars.

> I think I can control the
>humidity with open containers of water. The freezer will be in the basement
>so it would be nice if I can have a way to read temp and humidity without
>going into basement.

Don't ever go into the basement. I knew someone who was overcome by the
smell of cheese and missed two weeks of work before the boss sent the
police to look for him. He had mold all over his face and hands, but
after therapy, he was okay.

> any advise appreciated.

[nestork]

Buckwheat:

While you CAN put a fridge thermostat into a freezer the difficulty
arises in maintaining that 80% humidity level.

You see, in a regular fridge, the humidity of the air is extremely low
because the air inside the fridge regularily passes over the evaporator
coils, which in a healthy fridge are very very cold. So, the air
passing over a -60 deg. F evaporator coil is going to leave with a
humidity of 100% humidity at -60 degrees F. That humidity is much lower
than 100% humidity at 34 to 38 degrees F. So, almost all of the
humidity in that air forms frost on those evaporator coils, and it's
that removal of humidity from the air that allows the evaporator coils
to go without having to be defrosted but only once every day or there
abouts.

If you're going to be putting open containers of water in your upright
freezer, then your evaporator coils are going to be continually caking
up with frost, and you'll be continuously refilling those open
containers with water. This is problematic because the surface area of
an evaporator coil caked up with frost is far smaller than the surface
area of the evaporator coil fins, and the result is that the fridge will
warm up for lack of sufficient heat transfer from the freezer air into
the refrigerant.

I think what you should do is Google "Cheese Making" and see what other
people have done to create the right conditions for the bacteria to
thrive.

I see your plan of using an upright freezer to provide the right
conditions for bacterial growth as fatally flawed. The very way a
refrigeration cycle works causes it to remove humidity from the air, and
that's the downfall.




--
nestork

[buck...@ourgang.com]

one other factor is the temperature in my basement is about 60 in the summer
and winter is 50 or lower.

[nestork]

nestork;3221347 Wrote:
> If you want to go from 0 to 1/4 inch over a 6 inch width, you'd have
> to buy two strips and glue them together.
>

I stand corrected. Johnsonite makes those rubber transition strips in 0
to 1/16, 0.080, 1/8, 3/16, 1/4, 5/16, 3/8 and 1/2 inch thicknesses.
They also make a wide variety of intermediate strips to go from 1/8 or
3/16 to 1/4 or 3/8 inch thickness as well.

'Johnsonite > Wall Base, Finishes & Accessories > Finishing Accessories
> Transitions quick selections chart' (http://tinyurl.com/mon3tsr)




--
nestork

[Stormin Mormon]

Should be able to change the temp range by using
a thermostat (cold control) out of a refrigerator.
As to humidity, I'm not much help. I'm not sure
how performance will be affected, running
different temp range. Different duty cycle, for
sure.

Is the unit self defrosting, or does it have
tubes in the shelves?

--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

[buck...@ourgang.com]

no it is not self defrosting

[Stormin Mormon]

On 4/11/2014 5:10 PM, micky wrote:
> Don't ever go into the basement. I knew someone who was overcome by the
> smell of cheese and missed two weeks of work before the boss sent the
> police to look for him. He had mold all over his face and hands, but
> after therapy, he was okay.
>
>> any advise appreciated.
>

That must have been painful, being soaked in
Clorox, and having his skin scraped off.
That mycotherapy is really wicked. We could
use it for Gitmo torture, it's that bad.

[mike]

antenna wire thru the case

[gregz]

<buck...@ourgang.com> wrote:
> no it is not self defrosting

You might have water collecting and too much humidity.

Greg

[trader_4]

On Friday, April 11, 2014 5:48:08 PM UTC-4, nestork wrote:
> Buckwheat:
>
>
>
> While you CAN put a fridge thermostat into a freezer the difficulty
>
> arises in maintaining that 80% humidity level.
>
>
>
> You see, in a regular fridge, the humidity of the air is extremely low
>
> because the air inside the fridge regularily passes over the evaporator
>
> coils, which in a healthy fridge are very very cold. So, the air
>
> passing over a -60 deg. F evaporator coil is going to leave with a
>
> humidity of 100% humidity at -60 degrees F.

IDK on what basis you can conclude that the humidity is going
to be 100% leaving the evaporator. Not that it matters that much.

That humidity is much lower
>
> than 100% humidity at 34 to 38 degrees F. So, almost all of the
>
> humidity in that air forms frost on those evaporator coils, and it's
>
> that removal of humidity from the air that allows the evaporator coils
>
> to go without having to be defrosted but only once every day or there
>
> abouts.
>
>
>
> If you're going to be putting open containers of water in your upright
>
> freezer, then your evaporator coils are going to be continually caking
>
> up with frost, and you'll be continuously refilling those open
>
> containers with water. This is problematic because the surface area of
>
> an evaporator coil caked up with frost is far smaller than the surface
>
> area of the evaporator coil fins, and the result is that the fridge will
>
> warm up for lack of sufficient heat transfer from the freezer air into
>
> the refrigerant.
>
>

But he's not keeping it at freezer temps, he's keeping it at
50F. The evaporator coils will be constantly defrosting themselves.
The coils will get cold for a short time, only long enough to drop the
temp of the unit back to 50F, then turn off. They will then warm up
and melt. Its going to have a very short on duty cycle compared
to it's off time. The real problem I see there is that he may need
some way of getting rid of the condensate, as the freezer system
may not be able to handle it.

>
> I think what you should do is Google "Cheese Making" and see what other
>
> people have done to create the right conditions for the bacteria to
>
> thrive.
>
>
>
> I see your plan of using an upright freezer to provide the right
>
> conditions for bacterial growth as fatally flawed. The very way a
>
> refrigeration cycle works causes it to remove humidity from the air, and
>
> that's the downfall.
>

I agree that whether he can maintain 80% is a good question. The
thing in his favor is that he's doing it at 50-55F, in which case,
it might work, depending on where it's located. If it's in a 65F
basement, it's hardly going to run at all, so it can't take out
much water. If it's in a 90F garage, ie running a lot more, then
it probably won't work for the reason you outline.

[nestork]

trader_4;3221641 Wrote:
>
> IDK on what basis you can conclude that the humidity is going
> to be 100% leaving the evaporator. Not that it matters that much.
>

Well, imagine the air isn't moving. If you have room temperature air,
and you cool that air down to -60 deg F, then at some point during the
cooling process you'll go below the dew point and moisture will
precipitate out of that air. From then on, as you continue cooling the
air, moisture will precipitate out of the air and the air will remain at
a relative humidity of 100%.

>
> But he's not keeping it at freezer temps, he's keeping it at
> 50F. The evaporator coils will be constantly defrosting themselves.
> The coils will get cold for a short time, only long enough to drop the
> temp of the unit back to 50F, then turn off. They will then warm up
> and melt. Its going to have a very short on duty cycle compared
> to it's off time. The real problem I see there is that he may need
> some way of getting rid of the condensate, as the freezer system
> may not be able to handle it.
>

No, the cold control in a fridge works just like the thermostat in an
oven. It doesn't shut the compressor down when the set temperature is
reached because then, the fridge will be spending all of it's time ABOVE
that set temperature. When you set an oven to 350 deg. F, the oven
bake and/or broil elements don't shut off at 350 deg. F. Typically with
the old oil filled capillaries, the oven bake and broil elements will
shut off at 362 deg F and go back on again at about 338 deg F so that
you have a 25 degree hysterisis that gives you an AVERAGE temperature of
350 deg. F.

A fridge's cold control will do the same thing, but I'm just not sure of
the temperature range. But, suffice it to say that there's a hysterisis
built into cold controls to control the temperature so that the AVERAGE
temperature over time is the set temperature.

The OP said it's NOT a self defrosting freezer. So, with open
containers of water in that freezer, his evaporator coils are going to
get caked up with frost and he's going to be spending several hours
every 2nd or 3rd day defrosting the evaporator. It's going to be just
like the old manual defrost fridges, only with the frost accumulating on
the evaporator very much faster, which is why I'm saying the use of a
freezer to provide a cool humid environment won't work. A freezer will
only provide a cool dry environment.




--
nestork

[trader_4]

On Saturday, April 12, 2014 10:46:34 AM UTC-4, nestork wrote:
> trader_4;3221641 Wrote:
>
> >
>
> > IDK on what basis you can conclude that the humidity is going
>
> > to be 100% leaving the evaporator. Not that it matters that much.
>
> >
>
>
>
> Well, imagine the air isn't moving.

But the air *is* moving across the evaporator.

If you have room temperature air,
>
> and you cool that air down to -60 deg F, then at some point during the
>
> cooling process you'll go below the dew point and moisture will
>
> precipitate out of that air. From then on, as you continue cooling the
>
> air, moisture will precipitate out of the air and the air will remain at
>
> a relative humidity of 100%.
>
>

Sure if it's air that's just sitting around and it has time to reach
a steady state. But this air is moving past the chilled coils. If you
applied your reasoning to a home central AC system, then the air that's
leaving the unit at about 55F should be 100% humidity. Do the math.
If that air was indeed 100% humidity, even when it warmed up inside
the house, the humidity would still be way too high to be comfortable.
It's not going to go from 100% to 40% or 50%, ie a comfortable range,
by just warming up 15F.

>
> >
>
> > But he's not keeping it at freezer temps, he's keeping it at
>
> > 50F. The evaporator coils will be constantly defrosting themselves.
>
> > The coils will get cold for a short time, only long enough to drop the
>
> > temp of the unit back to 50F, then turn off. They will then warm up
>
> > and melt. Its going to have a very short on duty cycle compared
>
> > to it's off time. The real problem I see there is that he may need
>
> > some way of getting rid of the condensate, as the freezer system
>
> > may not be able to handle it.
>
> >
>
>
>
> No, the cold control in a fridge works just like the thermostat in an
>
> oven.

No what?

It doesn't shut the compressor down when the set temperature is
>
> reached because then, the fridge will be spending all of it's time ABOVE
>
> that set temperature. When you set an oven to 350 deg. F, the oven
>
> bake and/or broil elements don't shut off at 350 deg. F. Typically with
>
> the old oil filled capillaries, the oven bake and broil elements will
>
> shut off at 362 deg F and go back on again at about 338 deg F so that
>
> you have a 25 degree hysterisis that gives you an AVERAGE temperature of
>
> 350 deg. F.
>
>

Which is irrelevant. If I set my fridge and freezer at say 37F/0F,
it stays pretty damn close to those numbers, when the door is left
closed. So what if it goes up or down 2 or 3 degrees? It doesn't
change the fact that to maintain 55F inside, a fridge isn't going to
run much at all, unless it's in a garage or someplace where it's 90F.
Put it in a house where it's 70F or a basement where it's 65F and
it's not going to run enough to keep the coils frozen. It will run
for a few minutes, shut off, and any ice on the coils is going to have
a long time to melt at 55F.

>
> A fridge's cold control will do the same thing, but I'm just not sure of
>
> the temperature range. But, suffice it to say that there's a hysterisis
>
> built into cold controls to control the temperature so that the AVERAGE
>
> temperature over time is the set temperature.
>
>

And the range is pretty tight too. A fridge set at 37F, with the door
closed, isn't going from 45 to 29F. To maintain 55F, it's going to run
for a few minutes and shut off.

>
> The OP said it's NOT a self defrosting freezer.

Where did he say that?

So, with open
>
> containers of water in that freezer, his evaporator coils are going to
>
> get caked up with frost and he's going to be spending several hours
>
> every 2nd or 3rd day defrosting the evaporator. It's going to be just
>
> like the old manual defrost fridges, only with the frost accumulating on
>
> the evaporator very much faster, which is why I'm saying the use of a
>
> freezer to provide a cool humid environment won't work. A freezer will
>
> only provide a cool dry environment.
>

But it's *not* a freezer, because he's running it to maintain 50 - 55F.
Good grief.

[DerbyDad03]

Antenna wire? Not on the remote units for the indoor outdoor thermometers
I've used.

This guy added an antenna to his...

http://www.instructables.com/id/Increasing-the-Range-of-a-Wireless-BBQ-Thermometer/

[nestork]

The OP said it's NOT a self defrosting freezer.

trader_4;3221902 Wrote:
>
> Where did he say that?
>

Top right corner of every post in a thread will have a Post Number.

Read post #8 on page 1 of this thread.




--
nestork

[trader_4]

OK, I see where he said it's not self-defrosting. Of course it
doesn't matter, because at 50 - 55F, it is going to be self-defrosting
whether designed that way or not.

[nestork]

trader_4;3222027 Wrote:
>
> OK, I see where he said it's not self-defrosting. Of course it
> doesn't matter, because at 50 - 55F, it is going to be self-defrosting
> whether designed that way or not.

Well, I doubt if any refrigerator cold control will allow a temperature
as high as 50 deg. F., but regardless of what temperature the cold
control is set at, the compressor is still going to operate the same
way.

That is, whenever the compressor starts running, the evaporation of the
refrigerant in the evaporator coils is still going to cause the
temperature of the evaporator coils to drop down to -60 deg. F (say).
The temperature of the evaporator coils is unaffected by the set
temperature of the cold control. Raising the temperature of the cold
control only means that the compressor runs less often. But, when it
runs, it runs the same way it would if the cold control was set to a
much lower temperature. So, I'm thinking the evaporator coils are still
going to get caked up with frost.




--
nestork

[Stormin Mormon]

And during off cycles, the 50 degree air
in the box will thaw the evaporator.

[trader_4]

On Sunday, April 13, 2014 1:22:53 PM UTC-4, nestork wrote:
> trader_4;3222027 Wrote:
>
> >
>
> > OK, I see where he said it's not self-defrosting. Of course it
>
> > doesn't matter, because at 50 - 55F, it is going to be self-defrosting
>
> > whether designed that way or not.
>
>
>
> Well, I doubt if any refrigerator cold control will allow a temperature
>
> as high as 50 deg. F.,

He doesn't have to use a refrigerator cold control. Isn't that
why he's here asking what to use to convert a freezzer into a 50 -55F
environment?

but regardless of what temperature the cold
>
> control is set at, the compressor is still going to operate the same
>
> way.
>
>
>
> That is, whenever the compressor starts running, the evaporation of the
>
> refrigerant in the evaporator coils is still going to cause the
>
> temperature of the evaporator coils to drop down to -60 deg. F (say).
>
> The temperature of the evaporator coils is unaffected by the set
>
> temperature of the cold control. Raising the temperature of the cold
>
> control only means that the compressor runs less often. But, when it
>
> runs, it runs the same way it would if the cold control was set to a
>
> much lower temperature. So, I'm thinking the evaporator coils are still
>
> going to get caked up with frost.
>
>

Maybe they would eventually, if it ran long enough. How long do you think
the compressor needs to run to maintain 50F inside a closed freezer
that's in a basement? About 5 mins
an hour would probably do it. Whatever it is, there is going to be a
lot of time for any ice that's formed to melt when the compressor is off,
which it will be for long periods. It's 50F, not 0F.