Soldering in electrical boxes?
Steve Gray
to connect the various ground wires together (of which one connects to
the box itself)? As an old electronic designer I'm used to solder but
was surprised to find that my local electric wholesaler doesn't even
carry solder.
Thank you, all you experts.
AlarmHome
Steve Gray wrote in message <3631632d...@news.concentric.net>...
Sam Goldwasser
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John B. Hines
> Is it legit to solder inside a metal electric box, for example
>to connect the various ground wires together (of which one connects to
>the box itself)? As an old electronic designer I'm used to solder but
>was surprised to find that my local electric wholesaler doesn't even
>carry solder.
Try a hardware store or radio shack.
Solder is ok, but largely un-needed if you use a wire nut, which also
insulates at the same time.
Soldering large conductors requires a high power iron, and good
technique.
Ground wires (as opposed to the power conductors) are often aluminum,
which doesn't solder unless you have a different setup.
Greg Fretwell
mechanically secure before soldering, but if you are experienced in
soldering you know that. The biggest problem with solder is that you end
up having to tape up the joint afterward and the good old wirenut
accomplishes all of these operations in a few quick twists so nobody
soldered anymore. If you have the proper equipment and time is not an
issue there is not a legal problem with solder. Expect to open a few
joints up for the inspector and be sure to tell him about 110-14(b) if he
was born after WWII. :-) Greg
ta...@deltanet.com (Steve Gray) wrote:
>
> Is it legit to solder inside a metal electric box, for example
>to connect the various ground wires together (of which one connects to
>the box itself)? As an old electronic designer I'm used to solder but
>was surprised to find that my local electric wholesaler doesn't even
>carry solder.
Doug Younker
>
> Short answer...no!
I understand it's been 20+ years since Vo-Tech and they tought us how to
solder, does the NEC now prohibit it? My question why solder unless it's
a personal opinion how things should be done?
--
73, Doug Younker, N0LKK
near Plainville, KS
do...@ruraltel.net
N0LKK@K0JJV.#NWKS.KS.USA.NAOM
Signs of America
what I would do is check your local cod for power in the boxs at the switch
level ,,, here it is against the code all wires have to be in the over head
boxs and a switchleg brought to the switch box uness this is a Receptical,,,
what we did ,,, is take the group of wires lets say you have three with a
tail for connection to the block that would make four wires in your hand ,
using your lineman pliers (thats the one that looks like fat pliers and has
a cuter in the center) take these wires and bunch them together and twist
them with the with the pliers ina spining motion this will twist all the
wires together, in a nice tight twist,, then depending on code in your
area, you might have to use a coper crimp, or just a red cap, the attach the
coper wire to your box, I hope this works for you , ...anything else i can
help you with just let me know , this also can be used on any of the wires
your joining together this helps eliminate going back and redoing the
connection at a later date...
Take care
Benji
Signs of America- http://www.signsofamerica.com "We're Your Image Source"
Steve Gray wrote in message <3631632d...@news.concentric.net>...
Steve Gray
<ben...@alltel.net> wrote:
>working as an electrician I learnt some realy neet tricks ,,,
>what I would do is check your local cod for power in the boxs at the switch
>level ,,, here it is against the code all wires have to be in the over head
>boxs and a switchleg brought to the switch box uness this is a Receptical,,,
>what we did ,,, is take the group of wires lets say you have three with a
>tail for connection to the block that would make four wires in your hand ,
>using your lineman pliers (thats the one that looks like fat pliers and has
>a cuter in the center) take these wires and bunch them together and twist
>them with the with the pliers ina spining motion this will twist all the
>wires together, in a nice tight twist,, then depending on code in your
>area, you might have to use a coper crimp, or just a red cap, the attach the
>coper wire to your box, I hope this works for you , ...anything else i can
>help you with just let me know , this also can be used on any of the wires
>your joining together this helps eliminate going back and redoing the
>connection at a later date...
>
Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful replies. We have a
great group here.
I use wirenuts on black and white wires and attach them in the
manner you describe. But sometimes there are 6 or 7 bare copper ground
wires in the box, including the ones in the incoming romex, those on
the switch or receptacle, and the one to the box itself, that I don't
have a big enough wirenut, or there isn't enough room for a huge one.
Also it's a nuisance getting a wirenut over that many wires.
turtle
when you solider in electric wires there a thing call electrolicious set up
and begins to start and will cause a eating up of the wire and one day they
will burn in two at the solidered place. now we are talking 10 or 20 years
down the road.
TURTLE
not my words but i talk to some of the old electricians and this is what
they tell me.
Doug Younker wrote in message <36329C...@ruraltel.net>...
Greg Fretwell
for at least 150 years. Copper and aluminum don't get along well but
copper and solder are fine.
Greg
Robert Macy
Do not solder AC mains connections! A crimped connection will last and
last and don't solder a crimped connection or it will be set up for
failure.
If you feel safe with wires manually twisted together and left in a box
then you will feel safe with solder. Solder only "fills" and "holds" the
connection. As the joint deteriorates the heat will aid that
deterioration.
Yes, solder inside a protected area lasts around 10 years. I had my three
solder joints (the rest were crimped) failed within a month of each other!
- Robert -
Henry Young
for the same reason you wouldn't want to use solder to fix a heating element
in a hair drier ( a friend did this when we were in high school... needless
to say I laughed my rear off when he used it).
If the wire *somehow* gets hot enough to melt the solder, it may very well
land on other wires (or fall through the popout) and create a short circuit,
etc.
- Henry
Bill Watson
Henry Young wrote:
If it gets hot enough in the junction box to melt solder the dripping solder is
the least of your worries. The element in a hair dryer is designed to ge hot but
an electrical connection is not. Before wire nuts and crimps all connections in
a junction box were twisted for mechanical strength then soldered. Have never
seen any melted solder with out the house burning down.
--
Bill Watson
Phil Munro
>
> Is it legit to solder inside a metal electric box, for example
> to connect the various ground wires together (of which one connects to
> the box itself)? As an old electronic designer I'm used to solder but
> was surprised to find that my local electric wholesaler doesn't even
> carry solder.
> Thank you, all you experts.
Especially with old wiring, it is an advantage. For example, ever try
to add a GFI in a "standard" size box, and perhaps even feed a down-
stream circuit? That is at least two each ground, neutral, and hot
wires, and if they are #12 for a 20 A circuit, soldering takes less
room.
What is this someone mentioned about 10 years and joints
disintegrating?! Someone must be using acid-core solder/flux. With
rosin flux, there is no such problem. My wiring is going on 25 years
with no such problems! --Phil
--
Phil Munro Dept of Electrical Engineering
mailto:pcm...@cc.ysu.edu Youngstown State University
Youngstown, Ohio 44555
Robert Macy
On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Phil Munro wrote:
> What is this someone mentioned about 10 years and joints
> disintegrating?! Someone must be using acid-core solder/flux. With
> rosin flux, there is no such problem. My wiring is going on 25 years
> with no such problems! --Phil
> --
> Phil Munro Dept of Electrical Engineering
> mailto:pcm...@cc.ysu.edu Youngstown State University
> Youngstown, Ohio 44555
>
>
I saw it mentioned, and confirmed it from my own experience.
I used resin core flux, the best around and soldered the wires with the
"cleanest" look. Upon their failure, they still looked good, too.
Being a Stanford graduate in the electronic industry I arrogantly ignored
the advice from multiple installers who told me that I'd regret soldering
my connections, and to not solder a crimp connection since that removes
the "goodness".
The junctions outside failed in one year. The ones protected inside the
house failed all within one month of each other after 10 years.
So now I ate crow and listen carefully to those that use experience as
their teacher (as opposed to those that "think" about the problem.)
- Robert -
Buck153
>> with no such problems! --Phil
>> --
Amen,
Some people don't know how to solder. I've seen many of a "cold" solder joint.
If you heat the wire and have the solder on the opposite side or bigger wire,
a quarter around, and have the heat pull the solder around and thru.
If you have a quality soldered wire connection it will outlast any mechanical
type joint. I can point to some soldered joints that have been in over 50
years and have no problems.
You take well drilling they use a cable, that is unraveled in a bell like
container, and fill with solder or babbit, and it holds the weight of the
drill, matter of fact the cable wears before the solder giveway. A good solder
joint is better than wire itself, for electrical conductivity.
Buck
Phil Munro
>
> On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Phil Munro wrote:
>
> > What is this someone mentioned about 10 years and joints
> > disintegrating?! Someone must be using acid-core solder/flux. With
> > with no such problems! --Phil
> > --
> > mailto:pcm...@cc.ysu.edu Youngstown State University
> > Youngstown, Ohio 44555
> >
> >
> I saw it mentioned, and confirmed it from my own experience.
>
> I used resin core flux, the best around and soldered the wires with the
> "cleanest" look. Upon their failure, they still looked good, too.
>
> Being a Stanford graduate in the electronic industry I arrogantly ignored
> the advice from multiple installers who told me that I'd regret soldering
> my connections, and to not solder a crimp connection since that removes
> the "goodness".
>
> The junctions outside failed in one year. The ones protected inside the
> house failed all within one month of each other after 10 years.
>
> So now I ate crow and listen carefully to those that use experience as
> their teacher (as opposed to those that "think" about the problem.)
>
> - Robert -
20 years or so, I have had some of my wiring apart to make changes, and
the solder has looked just the same, *and* been difficult to unwrap.
Could you give us more details? Size of wire? Wrapped and then
soldered? 60/40 solder? Rosin-core or extra flux? What kind? You
have certainly got me curious.
A recent poster points out that wrap and solder was the way wiring
used to be done. Knob and tube wiring needed to have the nichrome
coating scrapped off, but it was soldered, too. And that has been my
approach for many years, with no trouble. I am assuming you know the
difference between a cold joint and properly soldered one! :-) --Phil
Kelley Mascher
pretty cold solder joint. I'll bet you didn't even melt any
of the insulation. To get a good joint on 12g and probably
even 14g with only about 3/4" of the wire stripped you
will at least bubble the insulation if not char it slightly.
Being a university graduate doesn't qualify you for much when it
comes to practical electrical work. I remember when I was in
college going to the 1 hour symposium on soldering and other
practical matters. I think they did this so we wouldn't
embarass ourselves in front of the technicians. Most of the
EEs I went to school with were better suited to being Math
majors but they wanted a better paycheck.
bye
Kelley
Robert Macy <ma...@california.com> writes:
>On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Phil Munro wrote:
>> What is this someone mentioned about 10 years and joints
>> disintegrating?! Someone must be using acid-core solder/flux. With
>> rosin flux, there is no such problem. My wiring is going on 25 years
>> with no such problems! --Phil
>> --
>> Phil Munro Dept of Electrical Engineering
>> mailto:pcm...@cc.ysu.edu Youngstown State University
>> Youngstown, Ohio 44555
>>
>>
>I saw it mentioned, and confirmed it from my own experience.
>I used resin core flux, the best around and soldered the wires with the
>"cleanest" look. Upon their failure, they still looked good, too.
>Being a Stanford graduate in the electronic industry I arrogantly ignored
>the advice from multiple installers who told me that I'd regret soldering
>my connections, and to not solder a crimp connection since that removes
>the "goodness".
>The junctions outside failed in one year. The ones protected inside the
>house failed all within one month of each other after 10 years.
>So now I ate crow and listen carefully to those that use experience as
>their teacher (as opposed to those that "think" about the problem.)
> - Robert -
--
Kelley Mascher (206) 528-2713
Children's Hospital & Med. Center mas...@u.washington.edu
Audiology Research Seattle, Washington USA
Unknown user
you soldering in junction boxes for house wiring? I hope not. I'm no
electrician but I don't think NatElecCode allows soldering. And repairs
would be a bear too. As far as being laughed at by technicians, Most EEs I
know would admit being better at theory than hands on and I wouldn't be too
cruel teasing them. 20+ years as a tech. has at least taught me how to
solder though ;-)
Jeff
In article <714qug$h6k$1...@nntp1.u.washington.edu>, mas...@u.washington.edu
says...
lang...@teleport.com
> I use wirenuts on black and white wires and attach them in the
>manner you describe. But sometimes there are 6 or 7 bare copper ground
>wires in the box, including the ones in the incoming romex, those on
>the switch or receptacle, and the one to the box itself, that I don't
>have a big enough wirenut, or there isn't enough room for a huge one.
>Also it's a nuisance getting a wirenut over that many wires.
You either need a bigger wire nut, or a bigger box. Soldering is not
a solution to an overloaded box. Each wire and other item in the box
needs to have a certain box volume, which can be totaled up to
determine box size.
--
Bennet K. Langlotz
lang...@teleport.com
danh...@infonet.isl.net
>
>
>Robert Macy wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Phil Munro wrote:
>>
>> > What is this someone mentioned about 10 years and joints
>> > disintegrating?! Someone must be using acid-core solder/flux. With
>> > rosin flux, there is no such problem. My wiring is going on 25 years
>> > with no such problems! --Phil
>> > --
>> > Phil Munro Dept of Electrical Engineering
>> > mailto:pcm...@cc.ysu.edu Youngstown State University
>> > Youngstown, Ohio 44555
>> >
>> >
>> I saw it mentioned, and confirmed it from my own experience.
>>
>> I used resin core flux, the best around and soldered the wires with the
>> "cleanest" look. Upon their failure, they still looked good, too.
>>
>> Being a Stanford graduate in the electronic industry I arrogantly ignored
>> the advice from multiple installers who told me that I'd regret soldering
>> my connections, and to not solder a crimp connection since that removes
>> the "goodness".
>>
>> The junctions outside failed in one year. The ones protected inside the
>> house failed all within one month of each other after 10 years.
>>
>> So now I ate crow and listen carefully to those that use experience as
>> their teacher (as opposed to those that "think" about the problem.)
>>
>> - Robert -
>
>lasted for 15 years and every wire in it was soldered. Wonder how your
>computer works? Even the circuit boards use solder for connections. And you
>think Y2K is a problem just wait till all these soldered wires start to go
>bad.
>If you tell them you are a Stanford graduate I bet they will listen.
The failures were almost certainly due to cold solder joints. Getting
enough heat onto heavy copper wires in cramped quarters is difficult (and
dangerous in many cases). Wire nuts are the way to go.
Dan Hicks
Hey!! My advice is free -- take it for what it's worth!
http://www.millcomm.com/~danhicks
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danh...@infonet.isl.net
I prefer to pigtail if there are more than 4 or 5 wires to be connected.
It's difficult to get a reliable wirenut connection with more than 5 wires
(and 5 wires is no picnic).
Bill Watson
Robert Macy wrote:
--
Bill Watson
Greg Fretwell
a fistfull of #12 wires you certainly can't be using the same iron you
put chips on a board with. If you look at the irons the old electricians
use you would see a 200 watt iron with a 1/2" round copper tip, not some
wimpy Weller gun.
Greg
TheCentralSc...@pobox.com
>>lasted for 15 years and every wire in it was soldered. Wonder how your
>>computer works? Even the circuit boards use solder for connections. And you
>>think Y2K is a problem just wait till all these soldered wires start to go
>>bad.
>>If you tell them you are a Stanford graduate I bet they will listen.
When was the last time TV components used 8 guage wire?
Chris Solar
: You either need a bigger wire nut, or a bigger box. Soldering is not
: a solution to an overloaded box. Each wire and other item in the box
: needs to have a certain box volume, which can be totaled up to
: determine box size.
Actually...the "Electrical Code Simplified" book I have
(for Ontario, Canada, mind you) describes this exact procedure:
if you're running out of room according to the box fill table,
then you can start replacing caps with soldered connections,
since the soldered connections don't count for the box fill
calculation. Different codes may view this differently.
That being said, I personally don't think I'd go that route,
given the relative difficulty of making (let alone modifying)
a soldered connection. I'd rather get a bigger box, or redesign
the circuit so that there wasn't so much in that box.
--
Christopher Solar NORTEL (613) 763-2862
Opinions are my own and do not necessarily ...you get the idea.
Bill Watson
TheCentralSc...@pobox.com wrote:
Doesn't mater what the guage of the wire is if soldered properly it will not go
bad after a few days or a few years. Just takes more heat and more solder to do
the job right. You can't tackle 8 guage wire with a soldering pen.
--
Bill Watson
Phil Munro
>
> Actually...the "Electrical Code Simplified" book I have
> (for Ontario, Canada, mind you) describes this exact procedure:
> if you're running out of room according to the box fill table,
> then you can start replacing caps with soldered connections,
> since the soldered connections don't count for the box fill
> calculation. Different codes may view this differently.
>
> That being said, I personally don't think I'd go that route,
> given the relative difficulty of making (let alone modifying)
> a soldered connection. I'd rather get a bigger box, or redesign
> the circuit so that there wasn't so much in that box.
take the tape off and then unwrap the twisted copper. The solder peels
nicely. In a recent case, I had a 4" square box with a couple
extensions to make it bigger, but the solder part was not difficult at
all.
On the other hand, I have had wire nuts that were very difficult to
unscrew!! :-)
The thing that bothers me is that copper wire seems to work-harden,
and especially the #12 is hard to deal with at the remodel time. --Phil
Robert Hancock
wiring than to solder some transistors onto a circuit board. If you don't
get it all hot enough you risk getting a cold solder joint which is prone to
failure.
--
Robert Hancock Saskatoon, SK, Canada
To email, remove "nospam" from rhan...@nospamsk.sympatico.ca
Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/9967/
Bill Watson wrote in message <363673B4...@worldnet.att.net>...
>
>
>Robert Macy wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Phil Munro wrote:
>>
>> > What is this someone mentioned about 10 years and joints
>> > disintegrating?! Someone must be using acid-core solder/flux. With
>> > rosin flux, there is no such problem. My wiring is going on 25 years
>> > with no such problems! --Phil
>> > --
>> > Phil Munro Dept of Electrical Engineering
>> > mailto:pcm...@cc.ysu.edu Youngstown State University
>> > Youngstown, Ohio 44555
>> >
>> >
>> I saw it mentioned, and confirmed it from my own experience.
>>
>> I used resin core flux, the best around and soldered the wires with the
>> "cleanest" look. Upon their failure, they still looked good, too.
>>
>> Being a Stanford graduate in the electronic industry I arrogantly ignored
>> the advice from multiple installers who told me that I'd regret soldering
>> my connections, and to not solder a crimp connection since that removes
>> the "goodness".
>>
>> The junctions outside failed in one year. The ones protected inside the
>> house failed all within one month of each other after 10 years.
>>
>> So now I ate crow and listen carefully to those that use experience as
>> their teacher (as opposed to those that "think" about the problem.)
>>
>> - Robert -
>
>Wonder if the electronics industry knows about this. I have had TV's That
>lasted for 15 years and every wire in it was soldered. Wonder how your
>computer works? Even the circuit boards use solder for connections. And you
>think Y2K is a problem just wait till all these soldered wires start to go
>bad.
>If you tell them you are a Stanford graduate I bet they will listen.
>
>
>--
>Bill Watson
>
>
JCoggins
manufacturers from soldering connections (except on low-voltage circuit
boards, of course). Soldering makes a solid enough connection for verifying
circuit continuity but cannot be counted on to carry any appreciable
electrical load. People who buy equipment know this.
Greg Fretwell wrote in message
<7123ql$1pto$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>...
Robert Macy
On 28 Oct 1998, Bill Watson wrote:
> Wonder if the electronics industry knows about this. I have had TV's That
> lasted for 15 years and every wire in it was soldered. Wonder how your
> computer works? Even the circuit boards use solder for connections. And you
> think Y2K is a problem just wait till all these soldered wires start to go
> bad.
> If you tell them you are a Stanford graduate I bet they will listen.
>
> --
> Bill Watson
That was my point! Being a Stanford graduate and in the electronic
industry I thought my way (using beautiful solder joints) was superior to
what simpe installers had told me.
About solder on PCB's, yes some boards you have to go around with a
soldering iron and "refresh" the joints or the micro gets flakey.
About the surface mount stuff, I don't think the parts will "fall" off,
but they'll probably exhibit the same failure mode as the old thru hole
technologies did.
But with the way technology goes, they'll probably not get old enough to
cause a problem. <g>
- Robert -
danh...@infonet.isl.net
>
>
>TheCentralSc...@pobox.com wrote:
>
>> >>Wonder if the electronics industry knows about this. I have had TV's That
>> >>lasted for 15 years and every wire in it was soldered. Wonder how your
>> >>computer works? Even the circuit boards use solder for connections. And you
>> >>think Y2K is a problem just wait till all these soldered wires start to go
>> >>bad.
>> >>If you tell them you are a Stanford graduate I bet they will listen.
>>
>
>Doesn't mater what the guage of the wire is if soldered properly it will not go
>bad after a few days or a few years. Just takes more heat and more solder to do
>the job right. You can't tackle 8 guage wire with a soldering pen.
One problem that may occur when soldering heavy wire is that the solder
can crystalize. This can happen even though the joint is hot enough to
melt the solder and the solder flows OK. The problem is that the entire
joint can't be kept hot at once, and at the points where the solder is
hovering right at the melting point the solder will crystalize. This
makes the solder readily susceptable to fracture, especially since the
crystalization will tend to occur in a pattern that leaves a crystal
boundary between the wires.
Robert Macy
If you saw the way they were soldered (the wire hot enough to cause the
solder to wick along, but not so hot as to boil off the tin) *and* you
examined them after failures with a 12X power eye loop; you'd have know
idea that the joint was a cold solder joint.
- Robert -
On 27 Oct 1998 danh...@infonet.isl.net wrote:
>
> The failures were almost certainly due to cold solder joints. Getting
> enough heat onto heavy copper wires in cramped quarters is difficult (and
> dangerous in many cases). Wire nuts are the way to go.
>
danh...@infonet.isl.net
>
>If you saw the way they were soldered (the wire hot enough to cause the
>solder to wick along, but not so hot as to boil off the tin) *and* you
>examined them after failures with a 12X power eye loop; you'd have know
>idea that the joint was a cold solder joint.
>
>
>>
>> The failures were almost certainly due to cold solder joints. Getting
>> enough heat onto heavy copper wires in cramped quarters is difficult (and
>> dangerous in many cases). Wire nuts are the way to go.
There are two types of cold solder joints (plus the primitive "no solder"
joint where the solder is just lumped onto the wires). The first type of
cold solder joint, the more familiar type, is where the wires are not
gotten hot enough for the flux to work. Thus a layer of oxide remains on
the wire and the solder never really bonds with it.
The second type of cold solder joint is where the solder has been
crystalized. This occurs when the joint is held right at the melting
temperature of the solder for too long (more than a dozen seconds or so).
The solder will tend to crystalize such that there will be crystal
boundaries at the surfaces of the wires and sometimes at a point midway
between the wires. The solder fractures very easily at these crystal
boudaries.
The worst case for crystalization is when the solder actually separates
into its constituent components. This can occur as a part of the (slow)
crystalization process.
Dan Hicks
Hey!! My advice is free -- take it for what it's worth!
http://www.millcomm.com/~danhicks
Greg Fretwell
with a tip that is hot and as big as your finger it will heat the whole
thing at once.
We used an iron at IBM that would solder 4 guage copper braid to a 1"
square tube machine frame in a second or two. It was about 500w and
weighed about 3 lbs tho.
Greg
JCoggins
Greg Fretwell wrote in message
<718um4$11v0$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>...
Larry Caldwell
designed to be heated on a forge or by blowtorch. Heat them until they
glow yellow, then apply. Melts the solder right in.
My dad has an electric version of the same irons. I think it's about
1500 watts.
-- Larry
In article <71b0bn$sj4$1...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
Donald Kinney
Donald
JCoggins wrote in message <71b0bn$sj4$1...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
Larry Caldwell
> I hope not. I'm no
> electrician but I don't think NatElecCode allows soldering.
It not only allows soldering, it specifies soldering as an acceptable
splice in NEC article 110-14(b). Soldering is pretty time consuming, but
I have several times seen professional electricians solder joints,
normally under industrial conditions in explosive atmospheres where the
possibilty of any spark or hot spot has to be absolutely eliminated, or
in installations under heavy vibration stress where screw-type connectors
cannot be relied on to stay tight.
Standard splice cap connections oxidize and deteriorate over time. I
don't take the effort to solder connections, but I do burnish the wire
and use Contax under a splice cap.
Soldering is an approved splice method for both copper and aluminum
conductors. Completing a good solder joint is fairly simple:
1) Burnish the ends of the wire to bright metal condition using fine
emery cloth. A solder splice requires about 50% more wire to be stripped
than a splice cap splice.
2) Tin the ends of the wire if necessary.
3) Twist the wire tightly to make a firm mechanical connection, holding
both sides of the twist firmly. Look for six full rotations with the
wire wrapped at a 45 degree angle. Two 3/4 inch ends of #12 wire will
twist into a 1/2 inch long splice.
4) Heat the joint, while applying solder to the part of the joint
farthest away from the heat source. Allow the solder to flow from the
coolest part of the joint to the warmest part by capillary action.
5) As soon as the joint is coated, quit soldering. A joint should just
look like shiny wire, with no obvious blobs of solder. If the joint has
lumps of solder, clip the ends of the wire off and start over. You did
it wrong. Learn to solder correctly before you try to salvage a poorly
soldered joint.
6) Apply insulation to meet the standard of the insulated portion of the
wire.
A properly soldered joint is many times more durable than a standard
splice cap joint.
-- Larry
Robert Macy
On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Larry Caldwell wrote:
>
> A properly soldered joint is many times more durable than a standard
> splice cap joint.
>
> -- Larry
>
>
From experience (and being told by others with experience) a crimp
connection is more reliable than a soldered connection.
- Robert -
PS don't know about durable, or explosive proof.
Andy
> >lasted for 15 years and every wire in it was soldered. Wonder how your
> >computer works? Even the circuit boards use solder for connections. And you
> >think Y2K is a problem just wait till all these soldered wires start to go
> >bad.
> >If you tell them you are a Stanford graduate I bet they will listen.
> >
> >
> >Bill Watson
> >
***********************************************************
The parts in a TV are pre-tinned and prepared to accept
solder, and solder under controlled temperature,flux, and time
conditions. Believe me, the quality of soldering in mass-produced
electronic equipment is far superior to using a 100 watt iron and
a glob of lead-tin on a couple of pieces of copper.
While I do not know why solder is not used on large electrical
connections, it just never is..... And many codes prohibit it.
My guess would be that it is too variable depending on the
person doing the work. Wire nuts leave less room for error.
Finally, whenever I have tried to "improve" upon conventional
wisdom and do something a "better way" because "I am smarter",
I have regretted it. And usually had to do it over.
So now I listen carefully to people in the business before I
try to convince them to change work patterns that have worked
for them.
Andy in Dallas --- not a Stanford graduate
nor related to one......
> >
Dan Cipriani
>
> Solder is not used because it is time consuming. Wirenuts are fast and
> meet code, just like those @#$%^&* Stab Lock devices. Nobody uses them
> because they are better, just faster and time is money.
> When I was first learning from old master electricians in the 50s they
> taught proper solder technique (Western Union splices and big irons) and
> it was touted as being the best way. BTW what "codes" does soldering
> violate?
>
> Greg
>
> Andy <jungl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >While I do not know why solder is not used on large electrical
> >connections, it just never is..... And many codes prohibit it.
>
> >
250-113, 250-114, 250-115.
Dan
Greg Fretwell
Hamm4fun
are used with larger wires will cause solder to melt and crystalise(COLD SOLDER
JOINTS). Don't know if there is a code for this, I just learned it the hard
way.
BTW: If a solder job is done properly first the wires are connected
together(western union splice) so that they really don't need the solder in the
first place. In other words, mechanical and electrical connection should not
depend on the solder.
Greg Fretwell
Donald Kinney
mechanical connection. Solder does not normally have the tension strength
for electrical wires. Please do not flame me as I do solder numerous wires
for a model railroad layout that does use up to 12 gauge wire and I have not
had any problems with the joints.
Also at one time you had to be able to disconnect any joint so if the wires
were solder you had a problem breaking the joint.
As to why you can still find solder joints; that is because the codes are
flexible when something is proven not be as good as a new way the code is
changed. the old way is normally left in effect up to a cutoff date, if it
was done the old you donot have to change it until the system that it is in
is changed out.
Donald
Greg Fretwell wrote in message
<71dmbf$18v4$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>...
Greg Fretwell
soldered connection will last 100 years, (they already have) We don't
know that about a wirenut yet. To start with a wirenut will rust out,
particularly if you live near the beach.
As long as the code allows an electrician to just stab the wires in a nut
and give it several twists that is what he will do. Besides you can't
keep a soldering iron in your mouth :-) Greg
JCoggins
Robert Macy wrote in message ...
Phil Munro
>
> On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Larry Caldwell wrote:
>
> >
> > A properly soldered joint is many times more durable than a standard
> > splice cap joint.
> >
> > -- Larry
> >
> >
> From experience (and being told by others with experience) a crimp
> connection is more reliable than a soldered connection.
>
> - Robert -
>
> PS don't know about durable, or explosive proof.
have never used them. On the other hand, crimp connections are *really*
hard to take apart. Soldered wires can be unwound nicely for
remodeling. --Phil
Dan Cipriani
in a box may be soldered, except for the equipment grounds.
Dan
danh...@infonet.isl.net
The wirenut maintains enough pressure on the wire to exclude air and
prevent corrosion between the wires (and especially between the wire and
the metal spiral inside the larger nuts). This is helped if some sort of
contact grease is used, though that is not common in household wiring.
Tom Gauldin
dimmer switch. When he'd removed the old switch, a pigtail to the hot
lead had come out from the wirenut, and he didn't know what to do.
When I inspected the connection inside the wirenut, the problem was
instantly apparent.
The wire spiral inside a wire nut is conical in shape. The neighbor
had twisted and then BENT OVER the three wires in the pigtail
assembly, before putting on the wire nut. The BEND itself was larger
in "diameter" than the twisted wires, making a knot at the top of the
wire cone and preventing the wires from being properly gripped by the
wire nut.
The lesson from this is to twist the wires in the direction the wire
nut tightens, then snip the tips off even. This permits the wire nut
to grip the twisted wires best.
--
Tom Gauldin, Raleigh NC scou...@mindspring.com
ftp://ftp.mindspring.com/pub/users/scoundrl/home.htm
Here's to the land of the Longleaf Pine,
The Summerland, where the sun doth shine.
Where the weak grow strong, and the strong grow great,
Here's to Downhome, the Old North State.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
danh...@infonet.isl.net wrote in message
<363b6...@news.spamkiller.net>...
JCoggins
seemed to be about soldering ground wires inside an outlet box. To the
original poster: is there a reason you can't drill that box and, using an
appropriate NEC-permitted screw (which is not a sheet metal screw), make
your connections that way? It looks a lot faster, easier and less likely to
fail.
Greg Fretwell wrote in message