Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires

[Texas Kingsnake]

Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried?

[trader_4]

On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 10:45:54 AM UTC-4, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
> Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried?

24" in open areas, it can be less if it goes under concrete, etc.

Best way to do it might be a day laborer. You could rent
a small walk behind ditch witch type gizom, depending on what's
available in your area. HD might rent them. How practical that
is depends on the cost and what you have to move it.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/28/2015 10:45 AM, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
> Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried?
>
>
>
>

As directed by the local building code people.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.

[trader_4]

On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 11:08:20 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
> On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 10:45:54 AM UTC-4, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
> > Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried?
>
> 24" in open areas, it can be less if it goes under concrete, etc.
>

Let me correct that. I just looked at the code to make sure
and above is true for direct burial cable. If you use pvc
conduit, it's 18". And there is an exception for branch circuits
of 20A or less that are GFCI protected, in which case it's 12"
regardless if it's direct burial or conduit.

[notbob]

On 2015-06-28, Texas Kingsnake <TKS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried?

Depends on where you live.

I live in the CO Rockies and we are in the middle of digging up our
entire 300 unit snowbird park for a new sewage system. The biggest
problem is the rocks. This entire valley is an ancient river bed and
one WILL stumble on smooth round river rocks tha size of a Ford
Exhibition, six ft or six inches under the surface. We have explosive
ordnance experts to deal with the really big boulders.

Bring the biggest backhoe you can afford. We have dozens working,
here. Everything from huge Cat's to itty-bitty Bobcat's. It's like a
used backhoe lot. Volvo's, Kamatsu's, Deere's, etc. If a bigger
backhoe is needed, it's get's trucked in. No one is going out with a
pick n' shovel and digging any 10 ft deep trenches anytime, soon. I
know.

My first job, after the service, was as a ditch digger. Swimming pool
plumbing ditches. Four foot deep in hardpan. At least a pick will
break up hardpan. But, the best pick in the world isn't gonna do spit
to a 20 ft diameter granite boulder. 8|

nb

[trader_4]

On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 11:08:41 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> On 6/28/2015 10:45 AM, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
> > Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried?
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> As directed by the local building code people.
>

That's true, what I cited is for NEC which is generally followed,
probably valid for TX, but locals always have the final say.

[HerHusband]

>> Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried?

> 24" in open areas, it can be less if it goes under concrete, etc.

> Best way to do it might be a day laborer. You could rent
> a small walk behind ditch witch type gizom, depending on what's
> available in your area. HD might rent them. How practical that
> is depends on the cost and what you have to move it.

The type of soil makes a difference too. We have lots of rocks in our
ground, everything from a couple inches across up to several feet across. A
ditch witch digger would be worthless here.

We usually start out with a straight line from the source to the
destination. Then we alter that route as needed to work around buried
boulders. The end result is usually more serpentine than straight line. :)

The first trench we dug for our incoming power line was in the rockiest
part of our property. By the time we dug around all the boulders to try and
find a way through the various rocks, we had a crater about 8 feet across.
Eventually we did find a route through the rocks though. Thankfully, most
other trenches we have dug have been less problematic.

I hired a backhoe once to dig a trench for us. He didn't fare much better
than we did with shovels. Since then we've just grabbed a shovel and
started digging.

Of course, rigid drain pipes or conduit aren't always flexible like
electrical cables. If I absolutely can't find a way to reroute the trench
around a rock I have resorted to drilling and chipping away at the rock to
get the necessary clearance. Thankfully, I've only had to do that once or
twice in the last 25 years.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

[Dean Hoffman]

On Sun, 28 Jun 2015 09:45:41 -0500, Texas Kingsnake <TKS...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried?

A call to the Digger's Hotline might be a good first step.
There are at least two benefits to using a shovel. Most of us
could use the exercise. Plus, a penny saved is a penny earned.
A guy might be paying himself good money by not renting a machine
to do the work.


--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[notbob]

On 2015-06-28, HerHusband <unk...@unknown.com> wrote:

> Of course, rigid drain pipes or conduit aren't always flexible like
> electrical cables.

Nor entirely practical. My old phone line goes through a PVC pipe.
Problem is, water gets into the pipe and when Winter time comes 'round
and there goes my landline. I hadda run a above ground line, instead.
Sometimes, still gets wet and drops out, but at least I can access it and
fix it when it does.

BTW, one the few times WD40 is actaully helpful. ;)

nb

[Billy Bologna]

On 6/28/2015 9:45 AM, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
> Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried?
>

After you have the fucking trench dug, don't fucking direct bury the fucking cable.
Install at least 1" PVC electrical conduit in the fucking trench.
(Makes wire replacement a fuck of a lot easier in the fucking future.)

[mike]

Dig no deeper than all the wires/pipes you cross in the path.

[trader_4]

Sounds like the problem there is not using wires rated for wet locations.
All PVC underground winds up with some moisture and water in it.

[Oren]

On 28 Jun 2015 15:13:35 GMT, notbob <not...@nothome.com> wrote:

>On 2015-06-28, Texas Kingsnake <TKS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried?
>
>Depends on where you live.
>
>I live in the CO Rockies and we are in the middle of digging up our
>entire 300 unit snowbird park for a new sewage system. The biggest
>problem is the rocks. This entire valley is an ancient river bed and
>one WILL stumble on smooth round river rocks tha size of a Ford
>Exhibition, six ft or six inches under the surface. We have explosive
>ordnance experts to deal with the really big boulders.
>

Nevada was an ocean, once. We have Caliche. The cost of building a
swimming pool can double or even more if it is found on site.
...machines or explosives :)

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliche>

[notbob]

On 2015-06-28, gfre...@aol.com <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:

> You just used the wrong wire. Anything underground is a wet location,
> the pipe WILL fill up with water. If you used the "flooded" phone
> wire, you would have been fine.

All done b4 my time. I was jes dealing with the failure.

nb

[Texas Kingsnake]

"trader_4" <tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:8b31a287-0644-4a8f...@googlegroups.com...

Thanks for the info. I have been looking at something called a "ditch
witch" for rental but it's expensive and like you said it is not easily
transportable. I am also worried what happens if I hit a rock using a
rented tool like that. How much could I be stuck for in a repair bill if I
wreck the cutter? Can you buy insurance from the rental places just in
case? I've never rented a tool in my life so I really don't know what's
involved.

TKS

[Sam E]

On 06/28/2015 11:39 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

[snip]

> There are at least two benefits to using a shovel. Most of us
> could use the exercise. Plus, a penny saved is a penny earned.
> A guy might be paying himself good money by not renting a machine
> to do the work.

and a shovel is less likely to break a buried gas line.

--
"Calling someone an asshole for being rude to a telemarketer is like
accusing someone who's shot a burglar in his home of being a poor host."
-- W.S.Rowell

[Texas Kingsnake]

"trader_4" <tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:a36648f6-bafb-4497...@googlegroups.com...

Thanks for the update. Depth will make a serious difference in how hard it
will be to dig the trench. I am thinking I will get the guy who butchered
my bricks to dig the ditch for free instead of my suing him. How hard could
THAT be not to eff up?

FWIW, I am using underground rated UF-14/2 cable that will be connected to a
GFCI to run some new outdoor lights. A juvenile delinquent has moved in
next door and I want to put up some motion detector lights and maybe some
sort of camera to catch him at work (I looked out the window one day to see
him tossing trash in my yard).

I was considering doing the work myself but I have no experience with
outside wiring or how to waterproof it so I may just dig the ditches and let
a licensed electrician do the hook-ups.

TKS

[Texas Kingsnake]

"HerHusband" <unk...@unknown.com> wrote in message
news:XnsA4C75FBAA9...@213.239.209.88...

> >> Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried?
>
> > 24" in open areas, it can be less if it goes under concrete, etc.
>
> > Best way to do it might be a day laborer. You could rent
> > a small walk behind ditch witch type gizom, depending on what's
> > available in your area. HD might rent them. How practical that
> > is depends on the cost and what you have to move it.
>
> The type of soil makes a difference too. We have lots of rocks in our
> ground, everything from a couple inches across up to several feet across.
A
> ditch witch digger would be worthless here.

Oh boy. That might put the kibosh on the digger. Rock'r'Us if you know
what I mean.

> We usually start out with a straight line from the source to the
> destination. Then we alter that route as needed to work around buried
> boulders. The end result is usually more serpentine than straight line. :)

That means it's not likely I'll be able to use PVC conduit although I didn't
have plans to. It sounded like a good idea but I don't see having to rewire
it during my lifetime.

> The first trench we dug for our incoming power line was in the rockiest
> part of our property. By the time we dug around all the boulders to try
and
> find a way through the various rocks, we had a crater about 8 feet across.
> Eventually we did find a route through the rocks though. Thankfully, most
> other trenches we have dug have been less problematic.

I have been considering solar-powered lightning instead of running a cable
but I have yet to see the solar powered light that I thought was worth a
tinker's damn.

>
> I hired a backhoe once to dig a trench for us. He didn't fare much better
> than we did with shovels. Since then we've just grabbed a shovel and
> started digging.

I thought about the backhoe and just hiring an excavation company to do the
job. Someone said if I was flexible about when they did it, I could save a
lot of money. Not sure if that is true but I guess they might have
unplanned down time they'd like to fill by digging a hole for me.

>
> Of course, rigid drain pipes or conduit aren't always flexible like
> electrical cables. If I absolutely can't find a way to reroute the trench
> around a rock I have resorted to drilling and chipping away at the rock to
> get the necessary clearance. Thankfully, I've only had to do that once or
> twice in the last 25 years.

I would hate to have done it once. I had to dig around some pretty big
rocks to run my sump pump output. I ended up using a piece of rebar and a
sledge hammer to hunt for rocks. Sings out like a carnival attraction when
the rod finally meets a boulder. No kewpie dolls for ringing the bell,
though.

TKS

[Texas Kingsnake]

"notbob" <not...@nothome.com> wrote in message
news:cvamo7...@mid.individual.net...

I doubt I will run it through conduit. Might make it easier to rewire in
the future but that's not a real concern.

TKS

[Texas Kingsnake]

"trader_4" <tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:60c4c713-44c5-472a...@googlegroups.com...

I agree but I wonder where the moisture comes from? Condensation? Leaks at
the entry/exit points from the ground? Well glued PVC *should* be
waterproof, should it not? From what I've read about UF wire, direct burial
should be fine. I just wish I could get away with direct burial of the
juvie living next door that's caused this need for better perimeter
lighting. <wicked smile>

TKS

[Texas Kingsnake]

<gfre...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:c5c0pa9iu7shq3eko...@4ax.com...

> You just used the wrong wire. Anything underground is a wet location,
> the pipe WILL fill up with water. If you used the "flooded" phone
> wire, you would have been fine.

Is that the stuff where the insulation is actually some gel goo that keeps
the water out?

TKS

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Run 12 volt lighting - bury the wire as deep as you can, but if you
can't get deeper than 6 inches? No worry.

[Dean Hoffman]

On Sun, 28 Jun 2015 16:03:29 -0500, Texas Kingsnake <TKS...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

There is shielded cable which is more expensive of course. I don't
think there would be any code problems if you ran a spare 12w/g either.
Are gophers or mice an issue in your area?

> TKS

[Texas Kingsnake]

"notbob" <not...@nothome.com> wrote in message

news:cvah8v...@mid.individual.net...

Explosives, eh? That would make me even more unpopular than I already am
with the neighbors. I would definitely try solar powered lights before it
comes to that.

TKS

[Texas Kingsnake]

<gfre...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2p30pa1aisto11vc5...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 28 Jun 2015 10:45:41 -0400, "Texas Kingsnake"

> <TKS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried?
> >
> >
> >
>

> You can rent a ditch witch trencher. I suppose a lot depends on what
> the soil is like.
> Burial depth really depends on where this is. The basic rule is direct
> burial cable (UF) is 24", PVC conduit is 18" if this is not below a
> road.
> There is an exception for 15 and 20 amp 120v on a residential
> property, that is GFCI protected at the source ... 12 inches. (cable
> or conduit)

That's nice - just the kind of exemption I need. Thanks!

TKS

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/28/2015 2:03 PM, Billy Bologna wrote:
> After you have the fucking trench dug, don't fucking direct bury the
> fucking cable.
> Install at least 1" PVC electrical conduit in the fucking trench.
> (Makes wire replacement a fuck of a lot easier in the fucking future.)
>

Are you military, or ex con?

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.

[Texas Kingsnake]

"Dean Hoffman" <dh0...@windstream.net> wrote in message
news:op.x0ym4...@deans-air.home...

Yes, I suspect wire is going to be cheapest part of this project. I wanted
to run a closed circuit TV cable in the same ditch but everything I've read
says it's going to pick up interference. I don't know enough electronics to
know for sure, but shouldn't that TV cable with 4 layers of shielding be
immune to any RF radiating from a 110 volt AC line running along side it? I
bought a thousand feet of it so I can afford to experiment. Didn't know
they made that in burial v. indoor stuff, either until I was looking a few
minutes ago. Not sure why I would really want a second UF 14/2 cable
because the ground's pretty stable and too tough for critters to drill
through.

> Are gophers or mice an issue in your area?

Not unless they recently mutated. Well, mice maybe but no one I know had
complained about rodents other than raccoons and they keep to the
once-a-week garbage bins, mostly. With my luck, my new trench will find them
all. <frown>

Our county went to once-a-week to save money but in the summer, it's no fun
to live downwind of a large family with lots of youngsters that consume
Pampers by the bale. Think they would get the message if I set up a huge
pedestal fan in the yard to blow the stench back their way? <smile>

TKS

[Texas Kingsnake]

<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:vtp0pah1cn9akr56l...@4ax.com...

Great Caesar's Ghost! Why didn't I think about that? I think 14/2 UF with
ground should be more than enough to power some LED lawn and spot
lighting, But there's an additional payoff with going DC (someone correct
me if I am wrong). There's no RF interference on a video feed from a
parallel DC power cable. It's the AC 60 sine wave that causes the video
interference. Two birds killed with one stone.

BSSF, sir. I thank you! (Best Suggestion So Far)

TKS

[Texas Kingsnake]

"Dean Hoffman" <dh0...@windstream.net> wrote in message

news:op.x0x8j...@deans-air.home...

> On Sun, 28 Jun 2015 09:45:41 -0500, Texas Kingsnake <TKS...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried?
>
> A call to the Digger's Hotline might be a good first step.

Yes, thanks for reminding me. Good idea.

> There are at least two benefits to using a shovel. Most of us
> could use the exercise. Plus, a penny saved is a penny earned.
> A guy might be paying himself good money by not renting a machine
> to do the work.

The last time I used my post-hole digger I remember saying to myself "this
is a younger man's work!" In this clay/rock hard-packed soil it takes a
long, long time to dig out very little material. Or run into a boulder as
big as a barrel. I think this long a dig will take a gizmo or a julio.

TKS

[Dean Hoffman]

On Sun, 28 Jun 2015 18:59:16 -0500, Texas Kingsnake <TKS...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Yes, I suspect wire is going to be cheapest part of this project. I
> wanted
> to run a closed circuit TV cable in the same ditch but everything I've
> read
> says it's going to pick up interference. I don't know enough
> electronics to
> know for sure, but shouldn't that TV cable with 4 layers of shielding be
> immune to any RF radiating from a 110 volt AC line running along side
> it? I
> bought a thousand feet of it so I can afford to experiment. Didn't know
> they made that in burial v. indoor stuff, either until I was looking a
> few
> minutes ago. Not sure why I would really want a second UF 14/2 cable
> because the ground's pretty stable and too tough for critters to drill
> through.

We have clay and loam etc. in my part of the country. It's good crop
growing soil. We keep the rocks in our heads. Critters sometimes chew
the insulation
off buried wires. The wires can corrode and actually rot through. It
happens
to both buried aluminum and copper. Lightning doesn't help either.
I did run across one time when a badger did chew through a single 14AWG
copper wire. I've found a couple times when lightning bored a hole into
the
ground to the wire and creating an open.
This is irrigation system wiring so the underground wires can run
hundreds
of feet. One low voltage wire we use will typically have a 9000 ft.
circuit.
The odds are greatly in your favor with a 40' run.

>
>> Are gophers or mice an issue in your area?
>
> Not unless they recently mutated. Well, mice maybe but no one I know had
> complained about rodents other than raccoons and they keep to the
> once-a-week garbage bins, mostly. With my luck, my new trench will find
> them
> all. <frown>
>
> Our county went to once-a-week to save money but in the summer, it's no
> fun
> to live downwind of a large family with lots of youngsters that consume
> Pampers by the bale. Think they would get the message if I set up a huge
> pedestal fan in the yard to blow the stench back their way? <smile>
>
> TKS
>
>

[hrho...@sbcglobal.net]

With regard to interference into the TV line from the 60 Hz 120V line, yes, that can happen. The 12V circuit mentioned for lighting is, unfortunately, 12V, 60 Hertz so there is still potential for interference, but it should be only 10% of the possibility of interference using 120V.

[HerHusband]

>> Of course, rigid drain pipes or conduit aren't always flexible like
>> electrical cables.
>
> Nor entirely practical. My old phone line goes through a PVC pipe.
> Problem is, water gets into the pipe and when Winter time comes 'round
> and there goes my landline. I hadda run a above ground line, instead.
> Sometimes, still gets wet and drops out, but at least I can access it and
> fix it when it does.

You probably just need cable rated for underground use. I asked our phone
company what wire to use and they gave me a couple hundred feet for free.
Really surprised me.

If your original wires were in PVC conduit, it should be a simple matter to
pull in new cable as you pull out the old.

Of course, I now get my phone service through our cable internet, and the
individual phones are wireless. We don't even use the old phone wiring
anymore.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

[HerHusband]

>> We usually start out with a straight line from the source to the
>> destination. Then we alter that route as needed to work around buried
>> boulders. The end result is usually more serpentine than straight
>> line. :)
>
> That means it's not likely I'll be able to use PVC conduit although I
> didn't have plans to. It sounded like a good idea but I don't see
> having to rewire it during my lifetime.

It's fairly easy to add elbows to work around obstacles, but they do make
flexible conduit also.

Of course, there's no need for conduit if you use the proper cable and
bury it deep enough. Conduit is mostly for added protection and/or to
make changes easier in the future.

>> Of course, rigid drain pipes or conduit aren't always flexible like
>> electrical cables. If I absolutely can't find a way to reroute the
>> trench around a rock I have resorted to drilling and chipping away at
>> the rock to get the necessary clearance. Thankfully, I've only had to
>> do that once or twice in the last 25 years.
>
> I would hate to have done it once.

In my case I was running a 4" drain line to direct water away from our
driveway. The pipe is rigid, straight, and had to have the proper slope
for drainage. I was also working my way around some trees, tunneling
under some large roots.

I didn't have too much trouble till I reached a spot where two huge
boulders (about 4 feet across each) were touching each other under
ground. Thankfully, my planned route went right between the boulders so I
simply busted a bit off the side of each boulder so the 4" drain pipe
would fit through. A lot of work, but everything worked out well in the
end.

I also had to split pieces off several large boulders (larger than my
car) last year so I could build a retaining wall. Our pump house is up on
that hill, so digging the rocks out was not an option. I've gotten fairly
good with a rotary hammer and feathers/wedges.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

[HerHusband]

> FWIW, I am using underground rated UF-14/2 cable that will be
> connected to a GFCI to run some new outdoor lights. A juvenile
> delinquent has moved in next door and I want to put up some motion
> detector lights and maybe some sort of camera to catch him at work (I
> looked out the window one day to see him tossing trash in my yard).

You might want to look into low voltage lighting. You could run the wire
right on top of the ground and cover it with mulch or something if you
really don't want to dig down. Of course, burying it a few inches would
still be a smart idea.

Alternatively, you could just install battery powered LED lights and not
worry about cables at all. You would need to swap batteries occasionally,
but if you used rechargeables it wouldn't be expensive.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/28/2015 11:14 AM, trader_4 wrote:
> On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 11:08:41 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:

>> On 6/28/2015 10:45 AM, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
>>> Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried?

>> As directed by the local building code people.
>>
>
> That's true, what I cited is for NEC which is generally followed,
> probably valid for TX, but locals always have the final say.
>

I don't have a lot of experience with NEC, but
my gut sense is following NEC will result in a
safe and reasonable result, in most cases.

[trader_4]

On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 5:26:33 PM UTC-4, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
> "trader_4" <tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:60c4c713-44c5-472a...@googlegroups.com...
> > On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 12:47:08 PM UTC-4, notbob wrote:
> > > On 2015-06-28, HerHusband <unk...@unknown.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Of course, rigid drain pipes or conduit aren't always flexible like
> > > > electrical cables.
> > >
> > > Nor entirely practical. My old phone line goes through a PVC pipe.
> > > Problem is, water gets into the pipe and when Winter time comes 'round
> > > and there goes my landline. I hadda run a above ground line, instead.
> > > Sometimes, still gets wet and drops out, but at least I can access it
> and
> > > fix it when it does.
> > >
> > > BTW, one the few times WD40 is actaully helpful. ;)
> > >
> > > nb
> >
> > Sounds like the problem there is not using wires rated for wet locations.
> > All PVC underground winds up with some moisture and water in it.
>
> I agree but I wonder where the moisture comes from? Condensation? Leaks at
> the entry/exit points from the ground?

Yes and yes.

Well glued PVC *should* be
> waterproof, should it not?

Yes, PVC leaking is rarely the problem.

From what I've read about UF wire, direct burial
> should be fine. I just wish I could get away with direct burial of the
> juvie living next door that's caused this need for better perimeter
> lighting. <wicked smile>
>
> TKS

I know what you mean....

[trader_4]

A backhoe is going to create a hell of mess compared to a ditchwitch,
just to lay cable or conduit. But it depends on the area, if it's
lawn or just dirt, etc.

[trader_4]

I've rented many tools and have never been offered an insurance plan.
If you break it, you have to pay to fix it. And your concern is valid.
I would think they are pretty tough and a typical rock isn't going to
bust it, but depending on how many you have, who knows.... And if you
bust it, you're at a disadvantage. The rental company is goind to fix
it and come up with the repair price. If it's unreasonable, you can
dispute it, take them to small claims, etc, but it could become a hassle.
I've never had that experience. Only once when renting a slice seeder
from HD, the guy accused me of not cleaning it off and wanted to charge
me $25 extra. I had washed it off, I just somehow missed one clump of
dirt on the bottom. I had to get a manager over and then they relented.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sun, 28 Jun 2015 21:01:51 -0700 (PDT), "hrho...@sbcglobal.net"
<hrho...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>With regard to interference into the TV line from the 60 Hz 120V line, yes, that can happen. The 12V circuit mentioned for lighting is, unfortunately, 12V, 60 Hertz so there is still potential for interference, but it should be only 10% of the possibility of interference using 120V.

The 12 volt circuit is GENERALLY AC but there is nothing saying it
cannot be DC, and 12 volt sis a lot less than 10% as likely to cause
interference.

[EXT]

"HerHusband" <unk...@unknown.com> wrote in message
news:XnsA4C75FBAA9...@213.239.209.88...

>>> Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried?
>
>> 24" in open areas, it can be less if it goes under concrete, etc.
>
>> Best way to do it might be a day laborer. You could rent
>> a small walk behind ditch witch type gizom, depending on what's
>> available in your area. HD might rent them. How practical that
>> is depends on the cost and what you have to move it.
>

> The type of soil makes a difference too. We have lots of rocks in our
> ground, everything from a couple inches across up to several feet across.
> A
> ditch witch digger would be worthless here.
>

> We usually start out with a straight line from the source to the
> destination. Then we alter that route as needed to work around buried
> boulders. The end result is usually more serpentine than straight line. :)
>

> The first trench we dug for our incoming power line was in the rockiest
> part of our property. By the time we dug around all the boulders to try
> and
> find a way through the various rocks, we had a crater about 8 feet across.
> Eventually we did find a route through the rocks though. Thankfully, most
> other trenches we have dug have been less problematic.
>

> I hired a backhoe once to dig a trench for us. He didn't fare much better
> than we did with shovels. Since then we've just grabbed a shovel and
> started digging.
>

> Of course, rigid drain pipes or conduit aren't always flexible like

> electrical cables. If I absolutely can't find a way to reroute the trench
> around a rock I have resorted to drilling and chipping away at the rock to
> get the necessary clearance. Thankfully, I've only had to do that once or
> twice in the last 25 years.

For underground work where you have to weave around rocks, use polyethylene
water pipe to pull the wires through, it will bend around obstructions and
keep the water out. Use shark bite type exterior fittings to connect and
join the pipe to avoid reducing the internal diameter that push-in fittings
will do. You won't have to dig so deep either.

[Uncle Monster]

On Monday, June 29, 2015 at 9:14:50 PM UTC-5, gfre...@aol.com wrote:

> If you are not getting this inspected you just have to dig it deep
> enough to avoid being hit by the lawn mower but it isn't "legal" (nor
> is the water pipe)

The last time I ran an underground conduit, it was Schedule 80 PVC electrical conduit. It was for a friend who had a garage apartment behind his home and we buried 2" Schedule 80 one foot deep and glued elbows plus LB's on both ends. We ran cat 5, 75 ohm coax, alarm and telephone wires in the conduit. I was across a driveway area in his yard and had vehicles rolling over and parked on top of it. The conduit has never leaked. Oh yea, it was a 35 foot run. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle PVC Monster

[Muggles]

On Mon, 29 Jun 2015 20:33:06 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
<uncl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> nd parked on top of it. The conduit has never leaked.
> Oh yea, it was a 35 foot run. ^_^

How do you get the wire in the long conduit without it getting stuck
somewhere in the middle?

--
Maggie

[hrho...@sbcglobal.net]

A steel wire called an electricians snake is used to pull wires through pipes.

[micky]

On 28 Jun 2015 16:47:03 GMT, notbob <not...@nothome.com> wrote:

>On 2015-06-28, HerHusband <unk...@unknown.com> wrote:
>

>> Of course, rigid drain pipes or conduit aren't always flexible like
>> electrical cables.
>

>Nor entirely practical. My old phone line goes through a PVC pipe.
>Problem is, water gets into the pipe and when Winter time comes 'round
>and there goes my landline.

Wow, if water kills your phone line, it must be really hard on DSL on
the same line.

I have about 20 feet of my phone line, mostly 4-conductor round while
wire, open to the rain, and maybe that's what's been causing internet
problems.

D'ya think?

[Uncle Monster]

The easiest way I've developed is to tie a piece if soft open cell foam to a poly pull string and blast it through the conduit with compressed air or CO2.
A shop vac can be used to pull the foam and string through the conduit. CO2 is good to use in the field when there is no power or source of compressed air. When I worked on a construction project running high voltage cables in 4" conduit, me and the crew tied a rag to a pull rope and used the air compressor, made to run jackhammers, to blow the rag and rope through the conduit. My brother was on the other end and said the rag and pull rope shot 10 feet into the air as it exited the conduit elbow. There is also steel or fiberglass fish tapes that are threaded through a conduit and the wires can tied to it and pulled through. Whenever I pulled wire through a conduit, I always left a pull string in the conduit with the wire. This makes for easy additions of wire or cable. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Wire Monster

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

In a 2 inch conduit????? They could run 4 times the cable through it
without trouble. You blow a pull string through first

[Muggles]

On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 00:22:07 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
<uncl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > How do you get the wire in the long conduit without
> > it getting stuck somewhere in the middle?

> The easiest way I've developed is to tie a piece if soft
> open cell foam to a poly pull string and blast it
> through the conduit with compressed air or CO2.
> A shop vac can be used to pull the foam and string
> through the conduit. CO2 is good to use in the field
> when there is no power or source of compressed air.
> When I worked on a construction project running
> high voltage cables in 4" conduit, me and the crew
> tied a rag to a pull rope and used the air compressor,
> made to run jackhammers, to blow the rag and rope
> through the conduit. My brother was on the other
> end and said the rag and pull rope shot 10 feet into
> the air as it exited the conduit elbow.

Wow... That had to be cool to watch!

> There is also steel or fiberglass fish tapes that are
> threaded through a conduit and the wires can
> tied to it and pulled through. Whenever I pulled wire
> through a conduit, I always left a pull string in the
> conduit with the wire. This makes for easy additions
> of wire or cable. ^_^

So, you put 2 pull strings through the conduit, use one to pull the
wire you need initially, and save the 2nd pull string for later in
case you need it?

I guess it's not common for those pull strings to get stuck when
being blown through?

--
Maggie

[Muggles]

On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 08:21:59 -0400, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> >How do you get the wire in the long conduit without
> > it getting stuck somewhere in the middle?

> In a 2 inch conduit????? They could run 4 times the
> cable through it without trouble. You blow a pull
> string through first

Monster said the same thing. I just picture it getting stuck because
of elbows in the conduit. I've never seen it done before. Was
curious.

--
Maggie

[trader_4]

It depends on how many elbows and how long the run. I think code
is that you can't have more than 360 deg of turns between access
points. How far, how many turns is going to depend on the wire
gauge and number of conductors, etc. A lot of it comes down to
common sense and experience.

[Muggles]

On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 07:09:27 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
> > Monster said the same thing. I just picture it
> > getting stuck because of elbows in the conduit.
> > I've never seen it done before. Was curious.

> It depends on how many elbows and how long the
> run. I think code
>

> A lot of it comes down to common sense and
> experience.

Thanks for the info. Learned something new!

--
Maggie

[TomR]

In news:mmpl8k$9jm$1...@speranza.aioe.org,
Texas Kingsnake <TKS...@yahoo.com> typed:

> "trader_4" <tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message

> news:a36648f6-bafb-4497...@googlegroups.com...

>> On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 11:08:20 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
>>> On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 10:45:54 AM UTC-4, Texas Kingsnake
>>> wrote:

>>>> Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried?
>>>
>>> 24" in open areas, it can be less if it goes under concrete, etc.
>>>
>>

>> Let me correct that. I just looked at the code to make sure
>> and above is true for direct burial cable. If you use pvc
>> conduit, it's 18". And there is an exception for branch circuits
>> of 20A or less that are GFCI protected, in which case it's 12"
>> regardless if it's direct burial or conduit.

> Thanks for the update. Depth will make a serious difference in how
> hard it will be to dig the trench. I am thinking I will get the guy
> who butchered my bricks to dig the ditch for free instead of my suing
> him. How hard could THAT be not to eff up?

Seriously? You are joking, right? If you are serious, my vote is don't do
it and stop trying to work anything out even deal with that guy. And, save
yourself the trouble of even thinking about suing him to get your money
back. He has no money. You will never see that money again even if you win
a lawsuit.

[Oren]

On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 10:46:02 -0400, "TomR" <To...@tomrljp5.lhd> wrote:

>> Thanks for the update. Depth will make a serious difference in how
>> hard it will be to dig the trench. I am thinking I will get the guy
>> who butchered my bricks to dig the ditch for free instead of my suing
>> him. How hard could THAT be not to eff up?
>
>Seriously? You are joking, right? If you are serious, my vote is don't do
>it and stop trying to work anything out even deal with that guy. And, save
>yourself the trouble of even thinking about suing him to get your money
>back. He has no money. You will never see that money again even if you win
>a lawsuit.

...but the guy could bring his wife and child to the job site. They
could all have a joyful fellowship.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

You want to try pulling 4 #1 or even 00 cables 100 feet through a
conduit. My dad took the clutch out of his '68 GMC doing one of
those!!!!

[trader_4]

That's a good point. Winning would probably be easy. Collecting
is a whole different story.

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per cl...@snyder.on.ca:

> In a 2 inch conduit????? They could run 4 times the cable through it
>without trouble. You blow a pull string through first

I had conduit run to my garden shed a year or two ago.

Two pipes: one for AC, the other for Ethernet.

Not knowing much, I trusted the guy who did it and he used something
like .5 or 1" conduit.

If I were doing it over again, I would definitely use 2" conduit:

- Negligible increase in cost

- Much easier to pull through

- Plenty of reserve.
--
Pete Cresswell

[Tekkie®]

Texas Kingsnake posted for all of us...

>
> "trader_4" <tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:a36648f6-bafb-4497...@googlegroups.com...
> > On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 11:08:20 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
> > > On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 10:45:54 AM UTC-4, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
> > > > Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried?
> > >
> > > 24" in open areas, it can be less if it goes under concrete, etc.
> > >
> >
> > Let me correct that. I just looked at the code to make sure
> > and above is true for direct burial cable. If you use pvc
> > conduit, it's 18". And there is an exception for branch circuits
> > of 20A or less that are GFCI protected, in which case it's 12"
> > regardless if it's direct burial or conduit.
>
> Thanks for the update. Depth will make a serious difference in how hard it
> will be to dig the trench. I am thinking I will get the guy who butchered
> my bricks to dig the ditch for free instead of my suing him. How hard could
> THAT be not to eff up?
>

> FWIW, I am using underground rated UF-14/2 cable that will be connected to a
> GFCI to run some new outdoor lights. A juvenile delinquent has moved in
> next door and I want to put up some motion detector lights and maybe some
> sort of camera to catch him at work (I looked out the window one day to see
> him tossing trash in my yard).
>

> I was considering doing the work myself but I have no experience with
> outside wiring or how to waterproof it so I may just dig the ditches and let
> a licensed electrician do the hook-ups.
>
> TKS

You can't put the electric and CCTV wires in the same conduit.

--
Tekkie *Please post a follow-up*

[Tekkie®]

Texas Kingsnake posted for all of us...


>

> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:c5c0pa9iu7shq3eko...@4ax.com...

> > On 28 Jun 2015 16:47:03 GMT, notbob <not...@nothome.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On 2015-06-28, HerHusband <unk...@unknown.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Of course, rigid drain pipes or conduit aren't always flexible like
> > >> electrical cables.
> > >
> > >Nor entirely practical. My old phone line goes through a PVC pipe.
> > >Problem is, water gets into the pipe and when Winter time comes 'round

> > >and there goes my landline. I hadda run a above ground line, instead.

> > >Sometimes, still gets wet and drops out, but at least I can access it and
> > >fix it when it does.
> > >
> > >BTW, one the few times WD40 is actaully helpful. ;)
> > >
> > >nb
> >

> > You just used the wrong wire. Anything underground is a wet location,
> > the pipe WILL fill up with water. If you used the "flooded" phone
> > wire, you would have been fine.
>
> Is that the stuff where the insulation is actually some gel goo that keeps
> the water out?
>
> TKS

Yup, like clear jelly...

[Uncle Monster]

I've put shielded cable audio/video in the same conduit with power conductors quite a few times without a problem. I wouldn't do it with high voltage conductors but 240 volts and lower has never caused a problem except with electrical inspectors. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Cable Monster

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Not a problem, but still NOT LEGAL and not to be recommended.

[Uncle Monster]

On a construction or remodel job me or whomever had the electrical contract would run separate conduits for power and low voltage wiring. I'd spec 3/4 EMT for phone and network drops. The phone company wants a minimum 3/4" conduit and sometimes larger for a service entrance. Heck, before I became too ill to work anymore, the computer networks I installed were handling both data and VoIP phone service. One Cat6 Ethernet cable per desk was all that was needed for phone and computer. Of course I would often split one ethernet cable to get two network feeds or pull out an unused pair for an analog or single pair multi line phone system like a Nortel. Dammit I miss work, the more complicated the job, the more fun I had. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Cable Monster

[Uncle Monster]

On Saturday, July 4, 2015 at 10:44:02 AM UTC-5, gfre...@aol.com wrote:

> On Sat, 4 Jul 2015 04:56:29 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
> <insp...@gadget.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >On a construction or remodel job me or whomever had the electrical contract would run separate conduits for power and low voltage wiring. I'd spec 3/4 EMT for phone and network drops. The phone company wants a minimum 3/4" conduit and sometimes larger for a service entrance. Heck, before I became too ill to work anymore, the computer networks I installed were handling both data and VoIP phone service. One Cat6 Ethernet cable per desk was all that was needed for phone and computer. Of course I would often split one ethernet cable to get two network feeds or pull out an unused pair for an analog or single pair multi line phone system like a Nortel. Dammit I miss work, the more complicated the job, the more fun I had. ^_^
> >
> >[8~{} Uncle Cable Monster
>

> BICSI doesn't think much of running analog phones on ethernet cables
> or splitting it out to two 10/100s.
> The gigabit internet stopped all of that anyway because they use all 4
> pair.
>
> The NEC goes both ways on power and low voltage sharing cabinets and
> raceways.
> Generally it is prohibited except when both are part of the same
> system. Cable jackets ARE "separation". It is the termination that is
> the problem. Then you can have the question, is this a raceway (from
> box to box) or a duct. (open at both ends)
> It is specifically allowed if both cables are MC (or even just the LV
> cable)
> The NEC is fairly inconsistent around low voltage wiring because the
> various CMPs don't seem to compare notes. I haven't really chewed on
> the 2011 and 2014 enough to see if they fixed the in congruencies.
> They are buried in the minutiae

Hell, we did whatever would make the inspectors happy. The network cable splitting was not done on new construction but when there was a service call or addition made long after the facility was built. It's been more expedient to pull out a pair on an existing cable rather than disrupt operations just to pull in one phone wire. Customers are interested in two things, will it work and what's the cost. Of course there's that third consideration, how much trouble will it be to do the job. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Practical Monster

[iwire...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 9:45:54 AM UTC-5, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
> Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried?

24" unless it is GFCI protected, then you can go 12". If you put it in a conduit you can go 18".

http://www.xwalk.com/images/Table_300.5-Min_Cover_Reqts.pdf


http://www.iwireelectricservice.com/

[bryan....@gmail.com]

On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 2:26:33 PM UTC-7, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
> "trader_4" <tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message

> news:60c4c713-44c5-472a...@googlegroups.com...

> > On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 12:47:08 PM UTC-4, notbob wrote:
> > > On 2015-06-28, HerHusband <unk...@unknown.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Of course, rigid drain pipes or conduit aren't always flexible like
> > > > electrical cables.
> > >
> > > Nor entirely practical. My old phone line goes through a PVC pipe.
> > > Problem is, water gets into the pipe and when Winter time comes 'round
> > > and there goes my landline. I hadda run a above ground line, instead.
> > > Sometimes, still gets wet and drops out, but at least I can access it
> and
> > > fix it when it does.
> > >
> > > BTW, one the few times WD40 is actaully helpful. ;)
> > >
> > > nb
> >

> > Sounds like the problem there is not using wires rated for wet locations.
> > All PVC underground winds up with some moisture and water in it.
>
> I agree but I wonder where the moisture comes from? Condensation? Leaks at
> the entry/exit points from the ground? Well glued PVC *should* be
> waterproof, should it not? From what I've read about UF wire, direct burial
> should be fine. I just wish I could get away with direct burial of the
> juvie living next door that's caused this need for better perimeter
> lighting. <wicked smile>
>
> TKS

" .... I just wish I could get away with direct burial of the
> juvie living next door..." Do you have rocky soil? ;-)