Tapping into a main lugs connection .

[billybobbobrob]

I have a sub panel that is on a 30 amp breaker feed from the main panel. At this sub panel I have tapped into the main supply lugs to run a feed to another sub panel that is 3 feet from the first sub panel . The 2nd sub panel is one breaker supplied for a hot tub at 30 amps ...Wire size and breakers is not in dispute, what a home inspector stated was to tap from the main lugs was not ok I should have used a junction connection some were else other than the lug connections there was plenty of room in each lug connector and they tightened correctly and all the wiring passed , in dispute is the method of connection for the 2nd sub panel. I had been told by a "electrician" that junction connections simply have to be contained and were it is connected it certainly is contained .Any thoughts?
oh and the first sub panel is rated at 125 amps.

[wtf]

On 09/14/2016 03:06 AM, billybobbobrob wrote:
> what a home inspector stated was to tap from the main lugs was not ok

I would think an electrical inspector would trump a home inspector.

[David L. Martel]

So who is this "home inspector" and why does his opinion matter? Was he
your county's building inspector or did the buiding inspector pass all of
the wiork?

Dave M.

[dpb]

"NEC Code Quandary

Q1. Is it acceptable to terminate two wires on a single screw or lug?

Q2. Is it permissible to terminate two circuits on a single circuit breaker?

A. Sometimes. According to 110-3(b) "listed or labeled equipment shall
be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in
the listing or labeling" and 110-14(a) states "terminals for more than
one conductor shall be so identified".

The only time two wires can be installed under a single screw or lug is
when the terminal is identified for this purpose. Circuit breakers rated
not more than 30 amperes are often identified for the termination of two
conductors. This can be verified by reviewing the circuit breaker
manufacture's catalog.

...

Note: Split-bolt lugs are only permitted for two conductors."

So, the definitive answer with the given information is "maybe, maybe
not OK". :)

Does the panel list the feed terminals as suitable for more than one
connection? If so, you're ok; if not then no.

[dpb]

On 09/14/2016 7:52 AM, dpb wrote:
...

> Q1. Is it acceptable to terminate two wires on a single screw or lug?
>

...

> A. Sometimes. According to 110-3(b) "listed or labeled equipment shall
> be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in
> the listing or labeling" and 110-14(a) states "terminals for more than
> one conductor shall be so identified".
>
> The only time two wires can be installed under a single screw or lug is
> when the terminal is identified for this purpose. Circuit breakers rated
> not more than 30 amperes are often identified for the termination of two
> conductors. This can be verified by reviewing the circuit breaker
> manufacture's catalog.
>
> ...
>
> Note: Split-bolt lugs are only permitted for two conductors."
>
> So, the definitive answer with the given information is "maybe, maybe
> not OK". :)
>
> Does the panel list the feed terminals as suitable for more than one
> connection? If so, you're ok; if not then no.

That you wrote "electrician" in quotes reduces the importance of his
opinion significantly it would seem; that this person only quoted the
portion about being in an enclosure also seems to indicate incomplete
familiarity with Code.

Normally, if it passed legitimate inspection I'd say that trumps NEC but
while there many areas of more recent Code that are of marginal real
difference imo, this one is pretty high on the list of potential for an
issue if, indeed, the particular box terminals are not listed as
suitable for the second conductor. I'd recommend to check that out and
follow the manufacturer's listed procedure.

It's possible the home inspector did check the box and didn't see the
above-mentioned labeling or it may be he just automatically flagged it
just on general principles; the manufacturer's got the definitive answer
yes/no and it's allowed for them to not have it on a label attached to
the box but in the detailed catalog information for the device.

[DerbyDad03]

This reminds of the idiot that installed my new service panel a few years
ago. I dealt the owner for the estimate but he sent 2 underlings to do
the installation. They installed a panel with a ground bar kit on the
right side of the panel, but not on the left. For the right side there
was room for the neutrals and grounds to be on their own lugs, but he
doubled up the neutrals and grounds on the left. I was pretty sure that
that was wrong but when I called him on it, he said it was OK. I was sure
he was wrong, so I called a buddy who is a licensed electrician who
verified that it needed to be corrected.

When I called the owner back and told him that I verified the issue with
a licensed electrician, he got pissed at me for not trusting him!

"Are you kidding me? Your guy wired the panel incorrecty and you're pissed
at me for doing my homeowner and verifying that it is wrong? You either lied
to me when you told me it was OK or you have no idea how to properly install
a service panel. Either way, you better get someone over here to fix it ASAP
or there will be hell to pay."

The next thing he tells me is that he will have to talk to his worker and
find out when he can do it "on his own time" because "I'm not going to pay
him to rewire it."

Holy crap! I told him that I don't give a crap about his business and how
he deals with his employees but if this isn't fixed within a week I will be
reporting him to the town and to anyone else that will listen.

The panel was fixed 2 days later.

[burfordTjustice]

Why did you not do it??

[billybobbobrob]

home inspectors have no license in the state of California and far as being a contractor or licensed engineer . The local building inspector had signed off on the installation. also at this panel the original permit was placed in plan view next to it. Home inspectors are used when real estate in being sold and usually its the buyers agent that orders the home inspector...The local building inspector said something about it being only 3 ft from the first sub panel to the next and less than 25 ft, like that was the deciding factor, possibly referencing some code? He seemed to feel that running the 4 main wires to a split lug junction would create a less desirable condition than to have them cleanly attached at the mains. Unfortunately that building inspector is no longer around passed away several years ago. City building inspectors do not revisit past inspections around here. They need new permit applications in order to get paid.

[billybobbobrob]

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 9:05:44 AM UTC-7, billybobbobrob wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 1:26:38 AM UTC-7, wtf wrote:
> > On 09/14/2016 03:06 AM, billybobbobrob wrote:
> > > what a home inspector stated was to tap from the main lugs was not ok
> >
> > I would think an electrical inspector would trump a home inspector.
>

> (Corrected typos) home inspectors have no license in the state of California as far as being a contractor or licensed engineer . The local building inspector had signed off on the installation. also at this panel the original permit was placed in plain view next to it. Home inspectors are used when real estate in being sold and usually its the buyers agent that orders the home inspector...The local building inspector said something about it being only 3 ft from the first sub panel to the next and less than 25 ft, like that was the deciding factor, possibly referencing some code? He seemed to feel that running the 4 main wires to a split lug junction would create a less desirable condition than to have them cleanly attached at the mains. Unfortunately that building inspector is no longer around passed away several years ago. City building inspectors do not revisit past inspections around here. They need new permit applications in order to get paid.

( corrected typos)

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 07:52:17 -0500, dpb <no...@non.net> wrote:


>"NEC Code Quandary
>
>Q1. Is it acceptable to terminate two wires on a single screw or lug?
>
>Q2. Is it permissible to terminate two circuits on a single circuit breaker?
>
>A. Sometimes. According to 110-3(b) "listed or labeled equipment shall
>be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in
>the listing or labeling" and 110-14(a) states "terminals for more than
>one conductor shall be so identified".
>
>The only time two wires can be installed under a single screw or lug is
>when the terminal is identified for this purpose. Circuit breakers rated
>not more than 30 amperes are often identified for the termination of two
>conductors. This can be verified by reviewing the circuit breaker
>manufacture's catalog.
>
>...
>
>Note: Split-bolt lugs are only permitted for two conductors."
>
>So, the definitive answer with the given information is "maybe, maybe
>not OK". :)
>
>Does the panel list the feed terminals as suitable for more than one
>connection? If so, you're ok; if not then no.

Well stated and I have never seen a main breaker lug rated for 2
conductors. A lot of panels do have a kit to add lugs at the bottom of
the bus but you are still limited to the rating of the panel overall.

[gfre...@aol.com]

What size are the service entrance conductors?

[billybobbobrob]

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 10:13:52 AM UTC-7, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 09:05:39 -0700 (PDT), billybobbobrob
> >

main service at the meter is a 100 amp service. the line powering the the sub panel 1 is 10 ga solid wire and is 220 on a 30 amp breaker at the main panel the sub panel 1 is rated at 125 amps . it has its own earth ground at that sub panel. The sub panel feed wire is 10 ga 3 conductor with a bare wire ground so technically there are 4 wires. so at the main lugs of this sub panel 1 wires were put in them and tightened to jump to another sub panel that is a 30 amp breaker sub outdoor rated box to connect a hot tub. the wires going to the hot tubs sub panel run 3 ft from panel 1 to it . This was done because local code required the breaker to be within reach of the hot tub acting like a emergency main disconnect . This again was all done and signed off by the local building inspector. The only thing in dispute here is that I used the main lugs for this sub panel as a junction lugs to run the feed wires for the hot tubs breaker/sub panel.

[dpb]

On 09/14/2016 12:32 PM, billybobbobrob wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 10:13:52 AM UTC-7,
> gfre...@aol.com wrote:

...

>>> ... The local

>>> building inspector had signed off on the installation. also at
>>> this panel the original permit was placed in plan view next to

>>> it....

Is there documented evidence of this on hand or can you get same?

...

>> What size are the service entrance conductors?

> main service at the meter is a 100 amp service. the line powering the

> the sub panel 1 is 10 ga solid wire ...

Didn't answer the pertinent question but it's bound to be at least 4 or
6 and there in is the rub...the much smaller wire in the single lug
unless it's designed for it is a potential for loosening with time and
becoming a hazard.

As far as NEC, see the previous answer; unless the panel lugs are
specifically identified by the manufacturer as suitable for multiple
conductors (and they'll specify the sizes, too) it is _NOT_
NEC-compliant to use it that way, inspector or no inspector.

Now, local Code can trump NEC and if you do have the documentation that
it passed the local jurisdiction inspection you may be able to fall back
on that and to sell the house (as it appears is the reason the issue has
been raised) I'd start with that as my position.

But, the original question on NEC is still as is--it depends entirely on
what the panel manufacturer says is the design-approved use of the lugs
in question. That's in black and white in Code in location cited.

Have you looked at the panel itself to see if it is labelled therein or
gone to the manufacturer's catalog to find out?

[dpb]

On 09/14/2016 12:11 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
...

> Well stated and I have never seen a main breaker lug rated for 2
> conductors. A lot of panels do have a kit to add lugs at the bottom of
> the bus but you are still limited to the rating of the panel overall.

Nor have I but I don't know that it isn't possible altho it would be
highly unlikely methinks...particularly for the given application
wherein the tap is #10 on a 4 or 6...

The original inspector may have let it go as "prettier" than the
split-nut and I can see that as a point but doubt it meets the
manufacturer's listing as you say since it would be so rare.

The cleanest solution probably would be to add the kit altho it's
possible may be a difficult find owing to age as it is, after all, only
100A service which indicates it's got some age on it.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

My understanding of code here in Canada is only one conductor on a
lug. What you need to do is replace the hot-tub panel with a
multi-circuit sub panel and put the hot tup breaker in it - or feed
the hot-tub panel from a breaker in the new sub panel (which really
doesn't make ANY sense. Why do you need or want TWO sub-panels????

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

You forgot ""terminals for more than

one conductor shall be so identified".

in the relevent code referenced previously. They DO need to be
labelled in the box to be legal.

[David L. Martel]

Why do you care about the opinion of a "home inspector"? You say that
this was inspected and passed by the local building inspector.
Are you trying to sell this place? Does the home inspector work for the
buyer? Tell the buyer that the wiring passed inspection, so they' ll be no
money from your to fix this issue.

Dave M.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

OK - I understood the power from the main went to the hot-tub panel,
and from THERE to the sub. In your case, just put another 30 amp 2
pole breaker in the Sub and connect the hot tub panel to that breaker
- that makes it all Kosher.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

I could have replaced my 100 amp fuse panel with a brand new 100 amp
breaker panel last year, so the size meand absolutely nothig.. I could
not put anything over 150 amps in (without paying to install a new
underground cable back to the transformer vault)

[dpb]

On 09/14/2016 2:41 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
...

> ...In your case, just put another 30 amp 2

> pole breaker in the Sub and connect the hot tub panel to that breaker
> - that makes it all Kosher.

Excepting w/ 100A service, undoubtedly it was already full-up which is
why couldn't do that before...

[dpb]

On 09/14/2016 2:44 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
...

> I could have replaced my 100 amp fuse panel with a brand new 100 amp

> breaker panel last year, so the size meand absolutely nothig....

Of course you could've; only it's quite unusual and has been for quite a
long while for a new house installation to be only 100A...from which I
simply infer it's likely an older house.

Maybe, maybe not, but reasonable inference for Californiay...

[trader_4]

Not sure that you understand what he says he has:

"I have a sub panel that is on a 30 amp breaker feed from the main panel. At this sub panel I have tapped into the main supply lugs to run a feed to another sub panel that is 3 feet from the first sub panel . The 2nd sub panel is one breaker supplied for a hot tub at 30 amps ."

My translation of that is he has a main panel with a 30A breaker that
feeds a subpanel, call it "B". AT that B panel, there is a tap at
the main supply lugs which feeds to another panel for the SPA, call
that the SPA panel. This is nuts, IMO. There is only
a 30A breaker supplying subpanel B and the SPA panel? It would seem
a typical SPA is 30A plus by itself. What other loads/breakers
are in in Panel B?

Aside from that I'm in agreement that it would seem it's only NEC
compliant if Panel B is listed for two wires under those lugs.

[billybobbobrob]

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 1:29:16 PM UTC-7, trader_4 wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 3:09:23 PM UTC-4, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> > On Tue, 13 Sep 2016 20:06:02 -0700 (PDT), billybobbobrob
> > <> >

pulled the cover off it does say that multiple wires can be used at the lugs providing they are the same size and the same type.. and they are mirror images of one another....panel be has lights breakers in it and no breaker is over 15 amps and there are a couple of outlet plugs on it as well, B panel also states it can have up to 8 hands or breakers on it. the hot tub is actually rated at 15 amps and was power load tested at the main meter to draw 14 amps and dropping to 11 when powered on. we have a smart meter that can show actual amps draw and such. With all other breakers off but the sub panel feed the test was done . lights on the sub panel circuits are LED low amp that draw 6 to 25 watts for each breaker in the sub panel. I did find some humor in this that in the notes or specs on the sub panel it states that if in the city of New York that panels rating is reduced to 100 amps , any were else it is rated at 125 amps. The hot tub in its control panel has fuses rated at 15 and 20 amps that got to the heater and to the motor .Here is something else I remember the electrician said that set this system up are far was what panels and breakers to buy.
10 ga wire is 30 amps its on a 30 amp breaker feeding to that sub panel, it would not matter if I had 300 15 amp breakers in that sub panel the 30 amp breaker protects that feed line and like your house you can add up 500 amps or more worth of breakers in your main box , on a 125 amp service..

..doesn't mean anything. what matters is the protection factors on the wires loads .If the correct breakers are in place for size of wiring runs by sizes and correct amp breakers like the 30 amp is the normal for a 10 ga wire, then in fact everything is legit there is no breaker in the sub panel B box that exceeds 15 amps , and the only real reason the other sub for the hot tub is there is for emergency disconnect at the hot tub itself. The building inspector stated that it would be a waste of breaker space to double breaker it for a 3 ft run.... also further is that this has been in place for 10 years and never has a breaker been tripped ....and yes the permit with the specs was posted next to the box when this home inspector showed up......he said "well, building inspectors can make mistakes too".....

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

From what he seamed to be saying he WAS feeding his first sub from a
30 amp 2 pole breaker. The confusion comes at the second panel, where
he appears to feed a third breaker box from the lugs of the second - -
- but then mabee we are ALL confused. Not sure the OP knows what
his question is any more.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

My main feed is only good for 125 amps - I just went out and checked
my panel - I could not put a 150 amp panel in - which would have given
me more choice. To put in a larger service would have required about
$4000 in trenching to install the new feed to the transformer vault
out on the street. (all underground wiring) tHE HOUSE IS 40 YEARS OLD
- AND WITH NO ELECTRIC HEAT 100 AMPS ID plenty FOR A 1350 SQ FT HOUSE
WITH ALL THE LOW-POWER OPTIONS AVAILABLE TODAY.

[dpb]

On 09/14/2016 4:54 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
...

> out on the street. (all underground wiring) tHE HOUSE IS 40 YEARS OLD
> - AND WITH NO ELECTRIC HEAT 100 AMPS ID plenty FOR A 1350 SQ FT HOUSE
> WITH ALL THE LOW-POWER OPTIONS AVAILABLE TODAY.

Yeah, but that wasn't necessarily the case in Kaliforniay or many other
places in the US back then.

Again, IT WAS AN PRESUMPTION BASED ON US EXPERIENCE, not a statement of
fact, get over it.

[billybobbobrob]

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 2:48:26 PM UTC-7, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 14:55:22 -0500, dpb wrote:
>
> >On 09/14/2016 2:41 PM, > >...

> >
> >> ...In your case, just put another 30 amp 2
> >> pole breaker in the Sub and connect the hot tub panel to that breaker
> >> - that makes it all Kosher.
> >
> >Excepting w/ 100A service, undoubtedly it was already full-up which is
> >why couldn't do that before...
> From what he seamed to be saying he WAS feeding his first sub from a
> 30 amp 2 pole breaker. The confusion comes at the second panel, where
> he appears to feed a third breaker box from the lugs of the second - -
> - but then mabee we are ALL confused. Not sure the OP knows what
> his question is any more.

the question was about using the lugs on the 125 sub panel as a junction point ? connection point for the for the hot tub disconnect , and through the other posts I found out the panel does state you can have multiple wires on those main lugs

[dpb]

On 09/14/2016 4:46 PM, billybobbobrob wrote:
...

> pulled the cover off it does say that multiple wires can be used at
> the lugs providing they are the same size and the same type.. and they
> are mirror images of one another....

The main power lugs say that?!?!!! I'd like to see a photo of that; I
don't believe ever seen it....on breakers, yes, not on the main lugs.

What's the panel make/model; should be able to find it if it's not too
terribly old and oddball.

[billybobbobrob]

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 10:12:23 AM UTC-7, gfre...@aol.com wrote:

The lugs or screws I was talking about are NOT on a breaker but the incoming lugs that the wires attach to feed the panel or the service wire attachment points

[billybobbobrob]

model is cultler- hammer BR48L revision C UL file E8741 California Compliant revision C
and it says no more than 2 wires at each incoming service lug

[dpb]

On 09/14/2016 5:11 PM, billybobbobrob wrote:
...

> The lugs or screws I was talking about are NOT on a breaker but the
> incoming lugs that the wires attach to feed the panel or the service
> wire attachment points

That we grok; but noted that can't recall ever seeing such.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

I'm over it. The caps were not intended - I accidentally hit the
caps-lock key

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

I saw the last post - which does make it legal (but I think I'd
likely go with another breaker). Those lugs are designed for heavier
wires so the chance of the 2 wires shifting or making a poor
connection over time are a bit higher.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

They do exist - not terribly common and I have not seen a Canadian
certified one in a long time - might not pass the stricter CSA
requirements up here.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

I have also seen breaker panels with provision to bolt 2 lugs to
each buss.. One wire per lug, one lug per bolt.

[dpb]

On 09/14/2016 7:07 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
...

> I have also seen breaker panels with provision to bolt 2 lugs to
> each buss.. One wire per lug, one lug per bolt.

I found catalog for the BR series boxes; they note passthru lugs on some
but only 200A service and above.

I didn't find any details on the lug connections in the info I did find
so can't confirm/deny the actual configuration at the moment.

[Terry Coombs]

Jumping in a little late here , but can you move that 30 amp breaker into
the breaker box and put just a disconnect in the location near the tub ?
Solves the inspector's complaint and fulfills code requirements for the
disconnect close by .
--
Snag

[dpb]

On 09/15/2016 7:54 AM, Terry Coombs wrote:
...

> Jumping in a little late here , but can you move that 30 amp breaker into
> the breaker box and put just a disconnect in the location near the tub ?
> Solves the inspector's complaint and fulfills code requirements for the
> disconnect close by .

That'd seem to have been the obvious solution from the git-go unless (as
I surmised to Clare's apparently eternal consternation) the box were
already full...

Altho I'd presume unless they're already in use there are slimline
breakers available for that box that could be substituted to create room
for one additional albeit at the cost of the extra breakers...

Question: Would a double pole switch qualify as the disconnect or does
it have to be an actual disconnect box (albeit they're not _that_
expensive, granted).

[dpb]

On 09/15/2016 8:34 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 09/15/2016 7:54 AM, Terry Coombs wrote:
> ...
>
>> Jumping in a little late here , but can you move that 30 amp breaker into
>> the breaker box and put just a disconnect in the location near the tub ?
>> Solves the inspector's complaint and fulfills code requirements for the
>> disconnect close by .
>
>
> That'd seem to have been the obvious solution from the git-go unless (as
> I surmised to Clare's apparently eternal consternation) the box were
> already full...
>
> Altho I'd presume unless they're already in use there are slimline
> breakers available for that box that could be substituted to create room
> for one additional albeit at the cost of the extra breakers...

Actually, more closely akin to the discussion at the time, we were
pondering the adding the additional lug kit if were available and I
hypothesized the box _might_ have some age on it...

Also, somewhere back in the original discussion OP mentioned the
inspector thought since the distance was so short having the separate
breaker and another disconnect so close was overkill and in "doing a
favor" then created the issue now...

_IF_ the box lugs are truly as OP has subsequently described and are
listed as he says, it would seem that that should have been apparent to
the current inspector and if it weren't simply making that point known
would resolve his responsibility to meet need.

Now, just because it is "good enough" doesn't imply the potential buyer
won't still ask for all the points on the inspection report to be
resolved as contingency in any offer to buy and one can negotiate on a
point-by-point basis or simply refuse certain points and see what
happens or just deal with it to close the sale.

I had a bizarre request on the house in TN--we had installed a
ground-loop heat pump and used a thermistor in line with the backup
resistance heat element control to prevent them from coming on before
roughly 15F outdoor temperatures as the unit had the capacity to keep up
but the vendor logic would kick in instaneously on a 2F difference from
setpoint which was too tight. The inspection was done during warm
weather so he noted the emergency heat elements didn't kick on and
didn't bother to ask or look to see why...the explanation didn't seem to
register with the buyer and we were in KS by then so I just had them
bypass the thermistor to close the deal and let the buyer pay the
'lectric bills when they came. I don't know if they ever did put it
back or not...

Anyways, this may well be in Code; it apparently passed the required
local inspection and yet it may be expedient to just do what they want
similarly if need to get the place sold...