most economical (gasoline)

[Frank Thompson]

Which is the most economical?
to use additive for gasoline for small engines to take care of
standard gasoline with alcohol added or to buy premium fuels with no
alcohol added?

[Stormin Mormon]

For the dollar a year difference, I go with the premium ethanol free.
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
.
"Frank Thompson" <gn...@windstream.net> wrote in message news:54f34f64-98dc-4b18...@w8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...

[Frank]

Not sure all premium is ethanol free. Probably depends on area you live in.

[Bob F]

I've been just using the gas with for years without a problem.

[IGot2P]

What's the big deal about not using gas with alcohol added? I have been
using it for years in my mowers, tillers, etc. without any problems.

Don

[tra...@optonline.net]

On May 21, 7:56 am, Frank <frankdotlogu...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 5/21/2013 7:47 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
>
> > For the dollar a year difference, I go with the premium ethanol free.
> > .
> > Christopher A. Young
> > Learn more about Jesus
> >    www.lds.org
> > .
> > .

> > "Frank Thompson" <gn...@windstream.net> wrote in messagenews:54f34f64-98dc-4b18...@w8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...

> > Which is the most economical?
> > to use additive for gasoline for small engines to take care of
> > standard gasoline with alcohol added or to buy premium fuels with no
> > alcohol added?
>
> Not sure all premium is ethanol free.  Probably depends on area you live in.

I['m not even sure any premium is ethanol free. None of
it here in the nj/nyc area is. You can't find any gas that is
ethanol free. But if I had the choice, for small engines, no
question I'd buy the alcohol free. There are countless reports
of the problems alcohol causes, so why buy gas with
alchohol, then pay for an additive that *might* help fix it?

[Harry K]

Yep.

Harry K

[tra...@optonline.net]

Do a bit of googling and you'll find plenty of problems.
Alcohol attracts water and that in turn leads to corrosion
of carb parts, gunking them up, etc.

[Stormin Mormon]

Some older units, the alcohol damages
seals, gaskets, etc.

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
.

"IGot2P" <IGo...@crsales.com> wrote in message news:kng519$gtt$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

[Stormin Mormon]

Try here: http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=NY

Some stations near me "say" their premium is ethanol free.

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
.

<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message news:2a7bdb34-d535-47f3-876b-

[Frank]

I tried to Google it up but did not get a good answer. One site had a
US map with fuel requirements of the various states and regions. It's
one hell of a mess that causes price increases and fuel shortages
throughout the country, e.g. a refinery goes down in California and they
cannot bring in gas from out of state as it does not meet their
requirements. Pure insanity.

I had trouble with alcohol containing gas bringing down my snow thrower
a couple of years ago when I left stabilized gas in it over the summer.
Because ethanol in gas changes its solvent properties engines with seals
not made for such gas may have seals and the like attacked. I don't see
how you can add anything to the gas to change this problem. In my case,
I believe shop replaced seals that caused the problem.

I did not notice til much later that snow thrower manual said not to use
gas with ethanol in it.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On May 21, 12:39 pm, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**NOJUN...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Try  here:http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=NY
>

NJ is not even on the list. For NY, nothing I see anywhere
near the nyc area. It's all way upstate.

[Stormin Mormon]

Well, that otherwise good idea isn't doing much good. Sorry about that.

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
.

<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message news:8d1fdf88-9d93-45e6...@h13g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...

[Frank]

On 5/21/2013 12:39 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:

> The problems with E-10 are mostly involved with storing it. Buy it,
> burn it and buy more. You will be fine.
> If you are storing a boat, power tool or whatever, run it dry and
> store it dry. This is months, not years. The biggest reason this seems
> to pick on boats and small engines is that they are stored more than
> they are used, usually full of gas.
>
>
>

Page I was looking at, lot of info:

http://www.exxon.com/USA-English/GFM/fuels_quality_gas_faq.aspx

They even recommend draining your gas tank if not used for a month and
good storage up to 6 months.

Hell, I'm using some 2 cycle mix that must be 5 years old and still good :)

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

That will depend on your definition of "good" - and what you started
with. If you started with AvGas, quite possibly actually "good" or if
you stored it in a sealed full can.

[Frank]

It's in a 2 gallon can about 1/3 full and had Sta-Bil added. Left over
from when I had a 2 cycle mower but now its 4 cycle but this gas still
runs my string trimmer. Gas looked clear before I tried it in the
string trimmer.

My 4 cycle Honda mower started first time this year with gas left in the
tank from last summer. Simple little shut off valve, probably cost
Honda an extra 25 cents allows engine to be run dry without emptying the
tank.

If my snow thrower had a fuel shut off valve, it might have saved
expense of shop fixing damage caused by leaving gas with ethanol in it.

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 21 May 2013 03:08:04 -0700, Frank Thompson wrote:

> or to buy premium fuels with no alcohol added?

I question why the word *premium*.

I presume you know what "premium" means, which is
merely gas that has a lower tendency to knock under
a given compression ratio (and heat).

Premium is *not better* than "regular" gasoline, despite
advertising to the contrary (e.g., classic detergent FUD).

Neither "premium" nor "regular" nor anything in between
is better than the other. The octane rating just means the
gas reacts differently to a given compression ratio (and
other related detonation factors such as heat).

Given whatever the compression ratio in my lawn equipment
is, I get along just fine with 87 AKI California gasoline.

Why the desire to use 92 AKI fuels in your lawn equipment?
Is your lawn equipment running at a high compression ratio?

[tra...@optonline.net]

The issue is not the octane rating. The issue is that
he claims he has high octane gas available which doesn't
contain alcohol. Alcohol is a real potential problem for
small engines. If I could buy gas for use in small engines
that had no alcohol, I would. But at least here, nyc/nj area,
it's not available.

[Congoleum Breckenridge]

On 5/25/2013 12:39 PM, Danny D. wrote:
> On Tue, 21 May 2013 03:08:04 -0700, Frank Thompson wrote:

> Premium is *not better* than "regular" gasoline, despite
> advertising to the contrary (e.g., classic detergent FUD).
>

Some brands have higher detergent levels in their Premium,
than in their Regular gas. Shell is one of them.
There's been independent tests posted on the internet back this up.

[tra...@optonline.net]

Then the next logical question would be who needs this detergent
and does it actually do anything or is it marketing hype? I've had
all kinds of cars and put a lot of miles on many of them, didn't
use premium in most of them and had no problems. And given
that most people use regular or one step up, you would think
there would be a lot of problems if this extra detergent was
necessary.

[Nate Nagel]

That can be mitigated by the periodic use of a good fuel system cleaner
like Techron, and any "top tier" gasoline brand should have enough
detergents in any grade to not require additives unless you're doing a
remedial clean up.

NB: I know that "top tier" is probably more marketing BS and I have no
issues using e.g. Sunoco fuel in my car even though it is not "top tier"
but I didn't want to start another discussion of what is a "good brand"
or not with the inevitable sidebar "it all comes from the same refinery
anyway." Long story short, I feel confident buying gasoline from any
station that is a major national brand.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[Danny D]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 10:07:09 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> The issue is not the octane rating. The issue is that
> he claims he has high octane gas available which doesn't
> contain alcohol.

OK. Makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

I didn't initially get that from his question though,
so I missed the subtleties involved in the question.

His original question was (cleaned up):
Which is the most economical:
(a) to use an additive for gasoline for small engines
(b) to use standard gasoline with alcohol added
(c) or to use premium fuels with no alcohol added

Out here, as elsewhere, there is no option for no alcohol,
so the distinction between higher and lower AKI indexes
is meaningless (from that perspective).

[Danny D]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 10:44:11 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> you would think there would be a lot of problems if this
> extra detergent was necessary.

People are stupid. Shell marketing knows that. So they sow
FUD with the "detergent" question. Shell marketing is *not*
stupid!

I once saw a statistic that only 5% of the cars out there
have a compression ratio such that they need the higher
octane (aka "premium") gasoline to prevent knocking
(piezo-electric knock sensors aside).

So, as you said, if 95% of the cars out there were getting
insufficient detergents, you'd think we'd know this by now.

PS: Yes, I do know that when fuel injection first became
popular, the government had to mandate a certain detergent
level for all gasolines; but that was decades ago.

[Danny D]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 13:46:38 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

> That can be mitigated by the periodic use of a good fuel system
> cleaner like Techron

Techron is actually a trademark and not a chemical, which is
found on a wide suite of solutions.

However ...

Guess what is in those various formulations?

The exact same stuff that is already in gasoline!

Yup!
- poly ether amines
- iso octanol (alcohol)
- aliphatic naptha (aromatics)

Check out the MSDS if you don't believe me.

[Nate Nagel]

I certainly do believe that, was just pointing out that Techron is
pretty much the most universally well regarded of fuel system cleaners
and is in fact effective.

I also agree that it is likely not necessary unless there's a known
issue with fuel injectors. I do use it in my vehicles as one is a BMW
with the N54 engine and already had one of its second set of fuel
injectors replaced recently, and the other, well, just because I'm a
little on the anal retentive side. A treatment before every oil change
should be more than sufficient for any but the most anal retentive.

nate

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

The reason "premium" was mentioned is that in MANY cases, the only
ethanol free fuel you can buy IS premium.
In Canada no Shell premium fuel has ethanol added. They sell a small
enough percentage of premium that they can meet the ethanol content
regulations completely by adding 10% or less to the low octane fuel,
which when mixed with premium for the mid-grade yields a 5% ethanol
blend.

As for lawn equipment, air cooled engines have a tendancy to run HOT -
which makes even low compression engines succeptible to detonation -
so running premium in lawn equipment has long been recommended.

When grass dust half plugs the cooling fins, lawn mowers run even
hotter than normal.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 23:33:21 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

Polyether amines are not present in most gasolines. They are a
component of the additive package in Chevron gasolines, and they are a
very effective fuel system and combustion chamber cleaner.
Chevron Techron was the first product marketed with concentrated PEA -
many companies now have their own version.

And just because Techron is a brand name (not a trademark) does not
make my recommendation any less legitimate - all "techron" contains
some level of PEA -

Nowhere did I intimate Techron was a chemical. It is a brand name fuel
conditioner that actually works. If I said I use PEA nobody would
have a clue what it is or where to get it.

[Danny D]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 19:52:20 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

> I certainly do believe that, was just pointing out that Techron is
> pretty much the most universally well regarded of fuel system cleaners
> and is in fact effective.

Agreed. Those poly ether amines are also good for cleaning the
fuel sending unit of sulfurous deposits, I'm told.

[Danny D]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 23:48:39 -0400, clare wrote:

> Polyether amines are not present in most gasolines. They are a
> component of the additive package in Chevron gasolines

Googling, I find that Chevron gasoline has 400 ppm polyetheramine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Techron

Googling some more, we find that all top-tier gasolines meet a
certain cleanliness standard; this standard does not require PEA -
the manufacturers can meet the standard with *any* detergent package
that works (and apparently many work as it's just soap for gas):
http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html

Googling for whether all gasolines sold in the US have polyetheramine
detergents, and knowing that all those gasolines have detergents,
we find this slide set from Chevron:
http://www.aspalliance.org/presentations/Winter_2007/Future%20of%20the%20Fuel%20Additive%20Market-Burns-Chevron%20Oronite-12-04-05-07.pdf

Which intimates succinimides, and not polyetheramines, nor
Polyisobutylene amines, are the most common detergents used in
gasoline to meet the federal detergent standards.

In the same slide set, they say there is a demand for differentiation
via additives, which means that if detergent 1 and detergent 2
work, if you can promote detergent 1 (even though it may be no
better than detergent 2), then you've accomplished that goal of
differentiation (hence, as we all know from Eco 101, you can charge
more to those who fall for the trick).

So, I'd say you are correct that probably not all gasolines have
PEA, but, all gasolines have detergents, and one detergent may
be as good as another - but even if they're the same, Chevron
marketing will try to differentiate their soap from the other
guys' soap - so that they can charge more to the sap who falls
for the switcheroo.

BTW, the slide set intimates that California emission standards
force manufacturers to improve their fuel - and - well - I do
live in California - so - it may be that all gasoline sold in CA
is "top tier" with respect to detergents; but I don't know that
for a fact.

[Danny D]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 23:33:21 +0000, Danny D wrote:

> The exact same stuff that is already in gasoline!

> - poly ether amines (detergent)

> - iso octanol (alcohol)
> - aliphatic naptha (aromatics)

I stand corrected by clare in fact, but not in substance.

All gasolines have detergents; and, many detergents work just as
well as others - but most gasolines apparently use succinimides
for detergents, while some use polyetheramines (and others use
polyisobutylene amines).

So, I thank clare for bringing this error to my attention,
and, I'll revise that statement above to say that all gasolines
meet the Federal standard for detergents, and all gasolines
sold in California meet California standards for detergents,
but they use different detergents to meet those standards.

[Danny D]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 23:21:54 -0400, clare wrote:

> As for lawn equipment, air cooled engines have a tendancy to run HOT -
> which makes even low compression engines succeptible to detonation -

I agree that anything that makes an engine run with higher
compression, higher heat, or advanced timing (further than
spec), will increase the need for a fuel that resists
detonation better.

Of course, the real solution is to clean the piston heads
of carbon deposits; ensure the cooling fins aren't blocked;
and make sure the timing is to spec - but - if these things
are off - I do agree that an engine can knock.

And knocking, if it gets bad, can ruin engine journals,
among other things.

[tra...@optonline.net]

I don't know who is making the recommendation to use premium.
Not any of the eqpt manufacturers that I've seen. They all say to use
regular gasoline.



.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 05:45:53 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

The important thing is, do they work? Seems as though they do from my
experience. I cannot think of a fuel related problems in the past 30+
years.

My car dealer though, tries to sell injector cleaning every year at
$159. If I followed his advice, I'd have pissed away at least $4500
over the years and only achieved in making the dealer more
profitable. That is why I don't use the dealer for service.

[Danny D]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 09:28:56 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> The important thing is, do they work?
> Seems as though they do from my experience.

I agree with you, based on my personal experience.

All gasolines sold in my state have the three ingredients that
are sold by the Techron marketing team as an additive package
(i.e., detergent, alcohol, & aromatics).

To me, adding *more* of the same, is not necessarily a good
thing.

It's clear, to me, that "Techron" (which indicates some level
of PEA detergents) is merely a marketing "differentiation"
created solely to garner more money from the consumer.

All gasolines have detergents.
Detergents are cheap.
PEA is cheap.
Techron is not.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 05:45:53 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

The difference between PEA and other detergents that work as a
standard fuel detergent, is PEA is the only one that is effective at
REMOVING deposits when used as an additive. The other detergents used
in tier 1 gasolines help PREVENT deposits. PEA, as used in Techron and
a number of other additives is one of the only fuel detergents found
to be very effective at REMOVING deposits - not only in the fuel
system, but both before the intake valve and inside the combustion
chamber.

MMO and Sea Foam and several other lesser products are fairly good at
cleaning the fuel system, and have a reasonable effect on existing
deposits - helping loosen them up and get them out - but nothing close
to the PEA additives.

Some additives that are added to the fuel in distribution work to some
extent to remove deposits as well, but are unsuitable as customer
installed additives.

[gregz]

Today I stopped to gas up. Their pumps had two options, diesel or 87 octane
gas. Shell. Strange.

Greg

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 00:37:44 +0000 (UTC), gregz <ze...@comcast.net>
wrote:

Around here quite a few dealers have been recommending premium - and
when I worked for an Ariens dealer back in the late sixties we
recommended premium on the mowers - which also required popping the
heads off to remove lead deposits every year or so. Prevented taking
pistons out when (not if) the fins got plugged on a hot day.

Unleaded fuel solved the deposit problem, by and large. Some of the
newer engines are less prone to plugging the fins and shrouds due to
better housing design - but then just when they more or less solve
that problem, they up the Compression Ratio with the OHV engines, and
the fixed jet smog carbs run the engine on the lean side -
particularly with ethanol fuel - so the octane requirements go up
again - making premium fuel , particularly if it is ethanol free like
Canadian Shell Ultra - a sensible option.

[Ashton Crusher]

He may make the claim but it makes no sense. AFAIK one effect of
adding alcohol to gas is to raise it's octane value. So it seems far
more likely to me that if there was going to be a gas without alcohol
in it, it would be the regular, not the premium.

[tra...@optonline.net]

Lead deposits? The 60s? Good grief! Lead hasn't been in hardly any
gasoline
for what 40 years?

>
> Unleaded fuel solved the deposit problem, by and large.  Some of the
> newer engines are less prone to plugging the fins and shrouds due to
> better housing design - but then just when they more or less solve
> that problem, they up the Compression Ratio with the OHV engines, and
> the fixed jet smog carbs run the engine on the lean side -
> particularly with ethanol fuel - so the octane requirements go up
> again - making premium fuel , particularly if it is ethanol free like

> Canadian Shell Ultra - a sensible option.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


As I've said, I'd like to see one example of a MANUFACTURER of
lawn eqpt that recommends using premium fuel.

[Nate Nagel]

Surprisingly, it appears that it was still legal to sell in the US until
1995, although I don't remember seeing it being widely available after
the early 80's. Likely, since road vehicles manufactured after the
early 70's couldn't run it, there wasn't much market for it so it was
slowly phased out as demand dropped.

nate

--

[SMS]

On 5/21/2013 3:08 AM, Frank Thompson wrote:
> Which is the most economical?
> to use additive for gasoline for small engines to take care of
> standard gasoline with alcohol added or to buy premium fuels with no
> alcohol added?

Additives are a temporary fix. If you can actually find ethanol-free
gasoline then it's worth doing so, but it's not available everywhere. I
noticed it available in Minnesota and Nebraska at a higher price.

See <http://crisfield.com/gold/Ethanol%20web%20ready.pdf>

[Congoleum Breckenridge]

On 5/27/2013 8:59 AM, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> Lead deposits? The 60s? Good grief! Lead hasn't been in hardly any
> gasoline
> for what 40 years?

I was still buying leaded 89 octane, at the pump, in the early to mid 80's.
It was replaced by 89 octane no-lead.
You can still find Sunoco Race Fuels (Cam2), which are leaded.

[Danny D]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 19:19:25 -0400, clare wrote:

> The difference between PEA and other detergents that work as a
> standard fuel detergent, is PEA is the only one that is effective at
> REMOVING deposits when used as an additive.

Hmmm... I have no idea how effective PEA is vs the other detergents ...
but ... from what I had read when I looked up the succinimides, not all
Tier 1 gasolines have PEA, yet all Tier 1 gasolines meet the desired
high-end automotive manufacturer standards for removing deposits.

If that statement is true, then that would indicate that there are
other ways to get good detergent action than PEA.

Is that a correct assumption?

[Danny D]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 19:19:25 -0400, clare wrote:

> MMO and Sea Foam and several other lesser products

Marvel Mystery Oil is about 80% napthenic hydrocarbons
(CAS Number 64742525), aka, hydrogenated aromatics, with
the rest being your basic mineral spirits (CAS Number 8052413)
and a chlorinated benzene, namely 1,2-dichloro-benzene
(CAS Number 95501).

Their advertising says it has the "mysterious ability to
cure and prevent almost any engine ailment.".

Wow. That's better than aspirin & penicillin combined!
If only it were true.

Sea Foam is half something called Pale oil, a third your
basic Naptha, and a sixth your standard iso-propyl alcohol.
Pale oil is basically a light machine oil (like what you
put in your trumpet or sewing machine or hair clippers).

Why anyone would want to add oil, more alcohol, and more
benzene to gasoline (which, by the way, is called "benzene"
and not gasoline in other countries for obvious reasons),
is well beyond my comprehension level.

[Danny D]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 11:06:19 -0400, gfretwell wrote:

> I will keep running the cheap stuff thank you.

Where can I find some of that cheap stuff in California?
:)

[gregz]

I have added lacquer thinner to gas.

Greg

[Danny D]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 19:05:51 +0000, gregz wrote:

>> Why anyone would want to add oil, more alcohol, and more
>> benzene to gasoline (which, by the way, is called "benzene"
>> and not gasoline in other countries for obvious reasons),
>> is well beyond my comprehension level.
>
> I have added lacquer thinner to gas.

I guess the theory is that the solvent cleans fuel
injector openings; and, maybe it works - but - with
all that smoke - I'd worry about the catalytic
converters and wonder how smoke is supposed to be
cleaning my injectors (that's an indirect inference,
of course).

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 09:18:46 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

Read my previous statement. There ARE other detergents that allow a
fuel to meet Tier 1 specs.
However, NONE of them have proven to be terribly effective at REMOVING
accumulated deposits - which is not the job of a tier 1 gasoline. Tier
1 gasolines are to avoid buildup in the first place.

PEA, as a consumer level additive, is the most effective way to REMOVE
engine deposits.

[gregz]

I don't think the things we did in the 70's would work now. From what I
remember, the fuel cleaner smelled nothing like today's stuff.

Greg

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 09:32:51 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 26 May 2013 19:19:25 -0400, clare wrote:
>
>> MMO and Sea Foam and several other lesser products
>
>Marvel Mystery Oil is about 80% napthenic hydrocarbons
>(CAS Number 64742525), aka, hydrogenated aromatics, with
>the rest being your basic mineral spirits (CAS Number 8052413)
>and a chlorinated benzene, namely 1,2-dichloro-benzene
>(CAS Number 95501).
>
>Their advertising says it has the "mysterious ability to
>cure and prevent almost any engine ailment.".
>
>Wow. That's better than aspirin & penicillin combined!
>If only it were true.

Well, with over 40 years experience with the stuff, MMO is very
effective at feeing up moderately stuck rings, quieting down noisy and
sticky hydraulic lifters or timing chain tensioners and conditioning
leather accelerator pump cups - among other maladies experienced by
MANY engines.

In today's engines, it does appear to also solve sticking and dripping
fuel injectors a good percentage of the time. Not foolproof - but
always worth trying when the option is dissassembly of half the intake
system to remove injectors for proper cleaning. $9 to have a better
than 50/50 chance of avoiding $400 worth of repair is well worth it in
my experience and opinion.

It was the first thing to try on the old 230 cu inch Chevy six when
lifters got noisy (a common occurence) and quite often the last step
required. Rislone worked too, sometimes - but usually took a bit
longer - and was more likely to cause goey crud to turn to cinders in
a poorly maintained engine. (more solvent - less lubricant)

Engine (4 cyl aircraft) sitting for a year or more has a "limp" when
started - one cyl down on compression. Cyl leakdown shows 40/80 on 1,
70/80 on 2 and 75/80 on one.After 20 minutes of running - no change.
Put MMO in the crankcase and run for 20 minutes and 75/80 all across
the board. And that is not a one-time experience - just an example.

>
>Sea Foam is half something called Pale oil, a third your
>basic Naptha, and a sixth your standard iso-propyl alcohol.
>Pale oil is basically a light machine oil (like what you
>put in your trumpet or sewing machine or hair clippers).
>
>Why anyone would want to add oil, more alcohol, and more
>benzene to gasoline (which, by the way, is called "benzene"
>and not gasoline in other countries for obvious reasons),
>is well beyond my comprehension level.

The stuff has a pretty good record for removing "greenies" from
carburetors left overwinter with ethanol gasoline, as well as
disolving varnish from carbs when used as a fuel additive - and when
added to the crankcase has a similar effect on sticking valve lifters
and timing chain tensioners

[Danny D]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 21:34:16 -0400, clare wrote:

> NONE of them have proven to be terribly effective at REMOVING

Ah, I see the distinction.
Thanks.