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Using the old "White" 12-2 Romex
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fred.fl...@thecave.com
Jul 21, 2012, 2:49:23 PM7/21/12
to
I recently bought a roll of the old "White" 12-2 w/ground romex at an
auction. The price was right and electrically the color dont matter.
The stuff is new and in excellent condition.
I dont recall when the change occurred which made 12-2 romex yellow, but
I believe it was near the end of the 1990's. Therefore this roll of
"white" must be at least 12 years old.
Considering that I'm using it in a farm shed which will not require
inspection, I'm not worried about the code. However, I'm curious if
this stuff would still be legal to use in a new installation for
residential work which would be inspected? I know there's probably
still a fair amount of this stuff around. Does anyone know what the
code says about this?
Yea, the thought has occurred to take a yellow permanent marker and at
least color the ends!!!!
By the way, when are they going to come out with designer colors on
romex? I'd like some dark brown to match my walnut paneling, some red
for the trim around the fireplace, and some light violet for the
bathroom. And what about those blue plastic boxes. I want my choice of
designer colors too. That dark blue dont match anything in the
house.......... (just kidding).
Speaking about designer colors, I just bought my first bag of matching
yellow romex staples. Until now, they were always white. This ought to
make this a much better world, except now I cant use the same ones on
white 14-2 romex, and wil have to buy a bag of white ones even if they
are the exact same size....... :)
auction. The price was right and electrically the color dont matter.
The stuff is new and in excellent condition.
I dont recall when the change occurred which made 12-2 romex yellow, but
I believe it was near the end of the 1990's. Therefore this roll of
"white" must be at least 12 years old.
Considering that I'm using it in a farm shed which will not require
inspection, I'm not worried about the code. However, I'm curious if
this stuff would still be legal to use in a new installation for
residential work which would be inspected? I know there's probably
still a fair amount of this stuff around. Does anyone know what the
code says about this?
Yea, the thought has occurred to take a yellow permanent marker and at
least color the ends!!!!
By the way, when are they going to come out with designer colors on
romex? I'd like some dark brown to match my walnut paneling, some red
for the trim around the fireplace, and some light violet for the
bathroom. And what about those blue plastic boxes. I want my choice of
designer colors too. That dark blue dont match anything in the
house.......... (just kidding).
Speaking about designer colors, I just bought my first bag of matching
yellow romex staples. Until now, they were always white. This ought to
make this a much better world, except now I cant use the same ones on
white 14-2 romex, and wil have to buy a bag of white ones even if they
are the exact same size....... :)
dpb
Jul 21, 2012, 4:07:37 PM7/21/12
to
On 7/21/2012 1:49 PM, fred.fl...@thecave.com wrote:
...
> ... Does anyone know what the
> code says about this?
NEC says nothing; only if a local jurisdiction has additional
requirements would it be an issue.
--
...
> ... Does anyone know what the
> code says about this?
NEC says nothing; only if a local jurisdiction has additional
requirements would it be an issue.
--
Tony Hwang
Jul 21, 2012, 9:41:57 PM7/21/12
to
In my house 12-2 Romoex has orange color.
Steve Barker
Jul 21, 2012, 10:55:36 PM7/21/12
to
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Jul 21, 2012, 11:04:57 PM7/21/12
to
On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 21:55:36 -0500, Steve Barker
<ichase...@notgmail.com> wrote:
>On 7/21/2012 8:41 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
>>
>>
>> dpb wrote:
>>> On 7/21/2012 1:49 PM, fred.fl...@thecave.com wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> ... Does anyone know what the
>>>> code says about this?
>>>
>>> NEC says nothing; only if a local jurisdiction has additional
>>> requirements would it be an issue.
>>>
>>> --
>> Hi,
>> In my house 12-2 Romoex has orange color.
>
>negative. the orange is 10ga.
The colour coding is voluntary and there is therefore "NO official
<ichase...@notgmail.com> wrote:
>On 7/21/2012 8:41 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
>>
>>
>> dpb wrote:
>>> On 7/21/2012 1:49 PM, fred.fl...@thecave.com wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> ... Does anyone know what the
>>>> code says about this?
>>>
>>> NEC says nothing; only if a local jurisdiction has additional
>>> requirements would it be an issue.
>>>
>>> --
>> Hi,
>> In my house 12-2 Romoex has orange color.
>
>negative. the orange is 10ga.
standard". It started about 2001
GENERALLY white is 14 guage, for 15 amp circuits. Yellow is GENERALLY
#12 for 20 amp circuits, Orange is GENERALLY #10, for 30 amp circuits,
Black is USUALLY either #6 or #8 - stove or drier cable, or feeding
sub panels - 40 or 60 amp.
GREY sheath can be any size and generally indicated NMW rather than
NMD (weatherproof or special app)
Because it is a "voluntary standard" it is NOT addressed by most
(possibly not any) code.
gregz
Jul 22, 2012, 12:43:29 AM7/22/12
to
<fred.fl...@thecave.com> wrote:
> I recently bought a roll of the old "White" 12-2 w/ground romex at an
> auction. The price was right and electrically the color dont matter.
> The stuff is new and in excellent condition.
>
The stuff I see, the newer yellow has a sheath which is softer, easier to
> I recently bought a roll of the old "White" 12-2 w/ground romex at an
> auction. The price was right and electrically the color dont matter.
> The stuff is new and in excellent condition.
>
rip one. The older white was tougher.
Greg
fred.fl...@thecave.com
Jul 22, 2012, 2:29:47 AM7/22/12
to
On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 04:43:29 +0000 (UTC), gregz <ze...@comcast.net>
wrote:
Thanks to all who replied. I did not know it was voluntary. It is a
good idea though, since the labelling was often hard to read.
The newer stuff is easy to rip open. The older white 12-2 or 14-2 was
harder but not much harder. However, I recall using some old UF
(underground) cable which was white. That stuff was a nightmare to
strip. The jacket was molded right to the black and white wires, and
the bare ground was in a ridge in the center and was molded right to it.
I remember spending 20 minutes hacking away little chunks at a time, and
and trying to expose the black / white wires without cutting it down to
bare wire. I normally left the jacket insulation on the bare wire
except at the tip. Damn I hated that stuff. The modern gray UF is
still harder to strip than standard romex, but at least it separates
from the insulated and bare wires without having to literally scrape it
away.
wrote:
good idea though, since the labelling was often hard to read.
The newer stuff is easy to rip open. The older white 12-2 or 14-2 was
harder but not much harder. However, I recall using some old UF
(underground) cable which was white. That stuff was a nightmare to
strip. The jacket was molded right to the black and white wires, and
the bare ground was in a ridge in the center and was molded right to it.
I remember spending 20 minutes hacking away little chunks at a time, and
and trying to expose the black / white wires without cutting it down to
bare wire. I normally left the jacket insulation on the bare wire
except at the tip. Damn I hated that stuff. The modern gray UF is
still harder to strip than standard romex, but at least it separates
from the insulated and bare wires without having to literally scrape it
away.
The Daring Dufas
Jul 22, 2012, 2:38:28 AM7/22/12
to
On 7/21/2012 1:49 PM, fred.fl...@thecave.com wrote:
TDD
George
Jul 22, 2012, 9:17:34 AM7/22/12
to
because anyone who knows what they are looking for would look at the
actual insulation on the conductors.
George
Jul 22, 2012, 9:23:11 AM7/22/12
to
rated insulation on the conductors which changed the cable designation
from NM to NM-B . As you stated color coding is not a code requirement.
fred.fl...@thecave.com
Jul 22, 2012, 11:59:20 AM7/22/12
to
On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 01:38:28 -0500, The Daring Dufas
<the-dari...@stinky-finger.net> wrote:
>
>The yellow is manufactured in China by yellow skinned people. ^_^
>
>TDD
Then who makes the #10 orange stuff?
<the-dari...@stinky-finger.net> wrote:
>
>The yellow is manufactured in China by yellow skinned people. ^_^
>
>TDD
Overworked halloween pumpkins? :)
EXT
Jul 22, 2012, 1:36:04 PM7/22/12
to
"Tony Hwang" <drag...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:bUIOr.39754$7y4....@newsfe23.iad...
cable to 90 degree C. cable. Most of it was wired with Romex cable that was
not plastic coated but with loom that was tarred and painted with orange
paint. An addition was added in 1986 and it was all wired with white plastic
coated cable no matter what the gage. In between there was some
modifications to wiring and the plastic coated cable used in that date came
in many colors, I have red, orange, black and brown and all are 14 gage.
RBM
Jul 22, 2012, 2:24:43 PM7/22/12
to
On 7/21/2012 2:49 PM, fred.fl...@thecave.com wrote:
cable was made with conductors rated higher than 60 degrees, the NEC
only allowed the higher ampacity ratings to be used for de-rating
purposes, so all NM regardless of conductor type has to be used at the
60 degree ampacity rating
RBM
Jul 22, 2012, 2:28:14 PM7/22/12
to
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Jul 22, 2012, 3:05:00 PM7/22/12
to
wiring was a requirement even years ago - now you use one cable
everywhere #14 is required. I think the old stuff was called R-90???
The Daring Dufas
Jul 22, 2012, 3:41:48 PM7/22/12
to
TDD
fred.fl...@thecave.com
Jul 23, 2012, 3:16:08 AM7/23/12
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On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 15:05:00 -0400, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>>I don't see where it would make any difference. Even when the newer NM
>>cable was made with conductors rated higher than 60 degrees, the NEC
>>only allowed the higher ampacity ratings to be used for de-rating
>>purposes, so all NM regardless of conductor type has to be used at the
>>60 degree ampacity rating
> But the insulation is good for use in pot-lights etc where the 90C
>wiring was a requirement even years ago - now you use one cable
>everywhere #14 is required. I think the old stuff was called R-90???
The irony of this is that about the time they finally have required 90C
>>I don't see where it would make any difference. Even when the newer NM
>>cable was made with conductors rated higher than 60 degrees, the NEC
>>only allowed the higher ampacity ratings to be used for de-rating
>>purposes, so all NM regardless of conductor type has to be used at the
>>60 degree ampacity rating
> But the insulation is good for use in pot-lights etc where the 90C
>wiring was a requirement even years ago - now you use one cable
>everywhere #14 is required. I think the old stuff was called R-90???
cable, most light fixtures now use CFL bulbs, which operate very cool
compared to the incandescent bulbs.
I've seen many boxes where the old cloth covered cable, and even some of
the newer cable was all bare wires because the old fixtures literally
baked the wires because they did not allow the heat to exit the fixture.
As our lighting changes to more energy efficient (and cooler) bulbs, I
suppose there will be more changes in wiring. Yet, some people will
still run "Hot" bulbs such as incandescents, and halogens are even
hotter. Then too, people dont always follow instructions. Just because
a fixture says 60W (or smaller) bulbs ONLY does not mean they will
follow it, particularly when all they have on hand is a 100W bulb. Not
to mention many people dont read. Just like the old plug fuses. It was
more common than not, to replace a blown 15A or 20A fuse with a 30A. If
they had made 100A fuses that fit the socket, they would have used them.
Sometimes I think the electrical code is too strict and sometimes even
rediculous, but I guess they have to be in order to protect us from
idiot people who cant or wont follow instructions, or who just dont know
or care.
Tomsic
Jul 23, 2012, 9:28:03 AM7/23/12
to
<fred.fl...@thecave.com> wrote in message
news:nptp085vlj8588mq8...@4ax.com...
themselves and starting fires from poor wiring practices and faulty
connections; but something bad will eventually happen when a high-wattage
bulb is put into a socket rated for somthing less. It's unfortunate that
the only safety "enforcement" is often a printed sticker on the light
fixture that discolors or falls off rather than a physical barrier such as a
socket designed such that the wrong bulb won't even go into the socket.
Much of the blame belongs to the industry which has done little to nothing
to educate consumers about lighting and electrical matters for years.
There's more general information now because of the bulb phase-out, but
still very little about safety.
Tomsic
Jon Danniken
Jul 23, 2012, 9:38:11 AM7/23/12
to
On 07/23/2012 12:16 AM, fred.fl...@thecave.com wrote:
>
> As our lighting changes to more energy efficient (and cooler) bulbs, I
> suppose there will be more changes in wiring. Yet, some people will
> still run "Hot" bulbs such as incandescents, and halogens are even
> hotter. Then too, people dont always follow instructions. Just because
> a fixture says 60W (or smaller) bulbs ONLY does not mean they will
> follow it, particularly when all they have on hand is a 100W bulb. Not
> to mention many people dont read. Just like the old plug fuses. It was
> more common than not, to replace a blown 15A or 20A fuse with a 30A. If
> they had made 100A fuses that fit the socket, they would have used them.
>
> Sometimes I think the electrical code is too strict and sometimes even
> rediculous, but I guess they have to be in order to protect us from
> idiot people who cant or wont follow instructions, or who just dont know
> or care.
I think the strict standards are to allow a healthy safety margin to
>
> As our lighting changes to more energy efficient (and cooler) bulbs, I
> suppose there will be more changes in wiring. Yet, some people will
> still run "Hot" bulbs such as incandescents, and halogens are even
> hotter. Then too, people dont always follow instructions. Just because
> a fixture says 60W (or smaller) bulbs ONLY does not mean they will
> follow it, particularly when all they have on hand is a 100W bulb. Not
> to mention many people dont read. Just like the old plug fuses. It was
> more common than not, to replace a blown 15A or 20A fuse with a 30A. If
> they had made 100A fuses that fit the socket, they would have used them.
>
> Sometimes I think the electrical code is too strict and sometimes even
> rediculous, but I guess they have to be in order to protect us from
> idiot people who cant or wont follow instructions, or who just dont know
> or care.
accomodate *every* possibility, including user generated issues.
At least they aren't using pennies any more though.
Jon
Jon Danniken
Jul 23, 2012, 9:39:51 AM7/23/12
to
On 07/23/2012 06:28 AM, Tomsic wrote:
>
> Good comments. GFCI and AFCI devices can keep people from electrocuting
> themselves and starting fires from poor wiring practices and faulty
> connections; but something bad will eventually happen when a high-wattage
> bulb is put into a socket rated for somthing less. It's unfortunate that
> the only safety "enforcement" is often a printed sticker on the light
> fixture that discolors or falls off rather than a physical barrier such as a
> socket designed such that the wrong bulb won't even go into the socket.
>
> Much of the blame belongs to the industry which has done little to nothing
> to educate consumers about lighting and electrical matters for years.
> There's more general information now because of the bulb phase-out, but
> still very little about safety.
Most of the blame lies in a populace that has been conditioned to have
>
> Good comments. GFCI and AFCI devices can keep people from electrocuting
> themselves and starting fires from poor wiring practices and faulty
> connections; but something bad will eventually happen when a high-wattage
> bulb is put into a socket rated for somthing less. It's unfortunate that
> the only safety "enforcement" is often a printed sticker on the light
> fixture that discolors or falls off rather than a physical barrier such as a
> socket designed such that the wrong bulb won't even go into the socket.
>
> Much of the blame belongs to the industry which has done little to nothing
> to educate consumers about lighting and electrical matters for years.
> There's more general information now because of the bulb phase-out, but
> still very little about safety.
an attention span approximating that of a small fly.
Jon
Message has been deleted
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Jul 23, 2012, 1:17:15 PM7/23/12
to
On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 12:07:06 -0400, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 02:16:08 -0500, fred.fl...@thecave.com wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 15:05:00 -0400, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>>
>>>>I don't see where it would make any difference. Even when the newer NM
>>>>cable was made with conductors rated higher than 60 degrees, the NEC
>>>>only allowed the higher ampacity ratings to be used for de-rating
>>>>purposes, so all NM regardless of conductor type has to be used at the
>>>>60 degree ampacity rating
>>> But the insulation is good for use in pot-lights etc where the 90C
>>>wiring was a requirement even years ago - now you use one cable
>>>everywhere #14 is required. I think the old stuff was called R-90???
>>
>>The irony of this is that about the time they finally have required 90C
>>cable, most light fixtures now use CFL bulbs, which operate very cool
>>compared to the incandescent bulbs.
>
>That is not exactly true. 90c conductors have been required in newly
>manufactured NM cable since 1987. (AKA NM-b)
>
Available since 1987, required since 1991 IIRC
>On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 02:16:08 -0500, fred.fl...@thecave.com wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 15:05:00 -0400, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>>
>>>>I don't see where it would make any difference. Even when the newer NM
>>>>cable was made with conductors rated higher than 60 degrees, the NEC
>>>>only allowed the higher ampacity ratings to be used for de-rating
>>>>purposes, so all NM regardless of conductor type has to be used at the
>>>>60 degree ampacity rating
>>> But the insulation is good for use in pot-lights etc where the 90C
>>>wiring was a requirement even years ago - now you use one cable
>>>everywhere #14 is required. I think the old stuff was called R-90???
>>
>>The irony of this is that about the time they finally have required 90C
>>cable, most light fixtures now use CFL bulbs, which operate very cool
>>compared to the incandescent bulbs.
>
>manufactured NM cable since 1987. (AKA NM-b)
>
Available since 1987, required since 1991 IIRC
Message has been deleted
fred.fl...@thecave.com
Jul 23, 2012, 2:13:03 PM7/23/12
to
if you can still get a 200 or 300W incandescent bulb, you can still
screw it into a fixture rated at 60W max. Using a 100W is likely within
the safety margin, but not a 200W or larger. And now they have those
halogen bulbs which run hotter..... That could be a fire hazzard even
if a 60W was used.
>At least they aren't using pennies any more though.
service center still has an old fuse box with plug fuses. They never
close the cover on this panel, and I noticed that all the fuses are
green (30A). If I was into betting, I'd bet that they are all feeding
#14 or #12 wire. I know that if I said anything about it, I'd be told
that it's been that way for the past 50 years and has not caused a
problem.
Back when I was a maintenance man for a rental company, who owned about
70 homes, I often had to repair electrical problems. I always replaced
all the 30A fuses with the correct size. A year later, I'd come back to
that property and find all 30A fuses again. For awhile I began to
install the fusestat adaptors and fusestats. That solved the problem in
most cases, but then these places were having constant calls for power
outages, because the renters did not understand how to replace the
fusestat, and this was costing the owners of the rental company money,
which they did not want to spend. I tried to convince them to add
circuits to things like an air conditioner and kitchen appliances, and
did so in some of the worst of the houses, but the rental company didn't
want to spend the money. They had the same attitude..... "The 30A fuses
worked fine, just put them back".
fred.fl...@thecave.com
Jul 23, 2012, 4:29:39 PM7/23/12
to
On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 13:39:22 -0400, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>
>Article 336.26 (NM cable construction specifications/conductors) in
>the 1987 code says "Conductors shall be rated at 90c."
While there is no date on the wiring that I have, I know it's newer than
1987. It was probably made in the 90's. Just before they made it
yellow.
>
>Article 336.26 (NM cable construction specifications/conductors) in
>the 1987 code says "Conductors shall be rated at 90c."
While there is no date on the wiring that I have, I know it's newer than
1987. It was probably made in the 90's. Just before they made it
yellow.
Message has been deleted
Nate Nagel
Jul 24, 2012, 10:11:54 PM7/24/12
to
change to NM-B happened before the change to the standardized color
coding for the jackets.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
samandi...@gmail.com
Apr 9, 2014, 7:09:31 PM4/9/14
to
I am looking to put a four foot baseboard heater in a bedroom . In the past I could use a 12-2 with a ground. Is that still up to code using 220 power and if it is what breaker should I use?
Message has been deleted
Mayayana
Apr 10, 2014, 8:42:22 AM4/10/14
to
12 guage - 20 amp
14 guage - 15 amp
But 220 watts? I think you'll find there are two hot
connectors, to be used with 12-3.
<samandi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:76864e27-13a8-4e8c...@googlegroups.com...
14 guage - 15 amp
But 220 watts? I think you'll find there are two hot
connectors, to be used with 12-3.
<samandi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:76864e27-13a8-4e8c...@googlegroups.com...
Message has been deleted
jamesgang
Apr 10, 2014, 11:09:36 AM4/10/14
to
On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 7:09:31 PM UTC-4, samandi...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am looking to put a four foot baseboard heater in a bedroom . In the past I could use a 12-2 with a ground. Is that still up to code using 220 power and if it is what breaker should I use?
Depends on the amperage of the baseboard heater and the distance from the breaker panel. In all probability a four foot baseboard section will work ok on 12/2 with a ganged 20 amp breaker. But you should still check the heater's power requirements on the box.
> I am looking to put a four foot baseboard heater in a bedroom . In the past I could use a 12-2 with a ground. Is that still up to code using 220 power and if it is what breaker should I use?
Mayayana
Apr 10, 2014, 6:34:19 PM4/10/14
to
| If this is just a line to line load (220v AKA 240v) why would you need
| to bring a neutral to it? (12-3)
I don't think I've ever hooked up baseboard
heat. I'm just assuming US, 220 volts is going
to need two hot wires and one white. Maybe
I'm wrong.
| to bring a neutral to it? (12-3)
I don't think I've ever hooked up baseboard
heat. I'm just assuming US, 220 volts is going
to need two hot wires and one white. Maybe
I'm wrong.
Message has been deleted
tstr...@gmail.com
May 19, 2014, 3:03:31 PM5/19/14
to
14 AWG - White
12 AWG - Yellow
10 AWG - Orange
8 AWG - Black
6 AWG - Black
This color coding system was developed to aid those who sell, install, and inspect Type NM-B cable so that the cable size can easily be identified, to reduce mistakes resulting from the use of an incorrect conductor size.
It should be noted that this color coding system is not a requirement of NFPA 70, National Electrical Code(R) (NEC(R)) or UL 719, Safety Standard for Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cable. Type NM-B can be produced and sold without using this color code. As such, the print legend, which is required by the NEC(R), should be used to verify the conductor size.
Steve C
Jan 19, 2024, 2:47:00 PM1/19/24
to
Donald Trump?
--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/using-the-old-white-12-2-romex-705749-.htm
--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/using-the-old-white-12-2-romex-705749-.htm
csnyder
Jan 20, 2024, 11:17:57 PM1/20/24
to
In some places blue sheath was used on AFCI protected circuits, orange was for electric heat, red was used for fire and smoke alarm wiring, black and white were for regular circuits - black 15 amp and white 20 amp. This goes back a couple decades . Can't remember what yellow was - - -
Greg H
Jan 21, 2024, 1:51:41 PM1/21/24
to
On 1/20/24 22:17, csnyder wrote:
> In some places blue sheath was used on AFCI protected circuits, orange
> was for electric heat, red was used for fire and smoke alarm wiring,
> black and white were for regular circuits - black 15 amp and white 20
> amp. This goes back a couple decades . Can't remember what yellow was - - -
Electric toilets?
> In some places blue sheath was used on AFCI protected circuits, orange
> was for electric heat, red was used for fire and smoke alarm wiring,
> black and white were for regular circuits - black 15 amp and white 20
> amp. This goes back a couple decades . Can't remember what yellow was - - -
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