Why did the breaker trip after a power outage?

[tange...@toyotamail.com]

Last night I was at a local tavern when the power went out in a large
section of town. This was probably due to a storm outdoors. The power
was only out for about 2 minutes. When it came back on, one wall
containing several neon beer signs, a jukebox, and 4 video games did not
come back on, while the rest of the building was fine. The bartender
found that the breaker for that one wall had tripped, and had to reset
it. Once reset, everything was fine.

I dont understand why a power outage would cause that breaker to
trip????

My only thought is that this circuit is drawing near it's maximum
amperage capacity for that breaker, and the surge of all those devices
caused it to trip. Yet, if this is the case, why did it not trip when
it was reset? The surge would be the same..... However, I got to
thinking that when the whole section of town was turned back on, that
the voltage would be low for a few seconds due to all the loads, and the
lower voltage to those devices would cause then to attempt to compensate
by drawing more amps...... Then the thought would be whether it's the
electronics in the jukebox and video games, or the high voltage
transformers on the neon signs that would draw the excess current?
Does this make sense?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thanks

[Tomsic]

<tange...@toyotamail.com> wrote in message
news:9qodq712lu9tqmvr0...@4ax.com...

Your thinking sounds right, but breakers respond in milliseconds so lots of
things could have been happening on a one-time basis when the power came
back on. It would be interesting to know what the average load is on that
breaker.

Tomsic

[tange...@toyotamail.com]

On Sun, 6 May 2012 20:06:29 -0400, "Tomsic" <N...@no.net> wrote:

>> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>Your thinking sounds right, but breakers respond in milliseconds so lots of
>things could have been happening on a one-time basis when the power came
>back on. It would be interesting to know what the average load is on that
>breaker.
>
>Tomsic

I may find out what the load is on that breaker one of these days. I'm
friends with the owner and I might just take my amp meter over there
when they are not busy and do some tests. I kind of think that breaker
is overloaded. It's an old building and these days the taverns keep
getting more and more electronic gadgets, plugged into old wiring.
Video games and a jukebox should not use more power than a computer or
stereo, but when you add them all up, it could be at it's limit, along
with the neon signs. I'm not sure what a neon sign uses for power? I'd
not think much, but I could be wrong. If that's a 15A breaker, it might
be at it's limit.

I was planning to check out one of their florescent lights anyhow, since
it keeps going on an off. Probably just needs new bulbs. I may as well
check both things at once. The owner is struggling to keep the place
open because of lacking funds, and cant afford to call an electrician
for every little thing, so I'm happy to help. Its a small business run
by good people......

[Duesenberg]

Neon signs use transformers do they not? Don't many use 12 volts? Maybe
unbalanced current in a couple of these transformers can trip the
breaker when they are fired on all at once. just a humble guess

[Ralph Mowery]

"Tomsic" <N...@no.net> wrote in message news:jo74h3$q6g$1...@dont-email.me...

>
>> Your thinking sounds right, but breakers respond in milliseconds so lots
>> of
> things could have been happening on a one-time basis when the power came
> back on. It would be interesting to know what the average load is on that
> breaker.
>
> Tomsic

Breakers do not always respond in milliseconds. Most common ones work by
heat. The more current that is passed through them, the faster they will
trip.
If several electrronic devices or motors try to start back up at the same
time, the breaker could be overloaded. If they are powered up one at a
time,the breaker may not trip.
Many devices require more current to start than they do a few seconds or so
after they are startred.

[Ralph Mowery]

"Duesenberg" <a...@123.com> wrote in message
news:jo76ir$39d$1...@dont-email.me...

> Neon signs use transformers do they not? Don't many use 12 volts? Maybe
> unbalanced current in a couple of these transformers can trip the breaker
> when they are fired on all at once. just a humble guess

I do not know about the newer ones, but the old type use a transformer that
puts out around 10,000 volts.

[Duesenberg]

Neon lights would be like that too. They would need more current to
intialilly come on than to stay on.

[Duesenberg]

you might be right on the voltage. I was thinking of newer stle LED
lights made to look like neon. I've looked at the labels on those, but
not real neon lights...

However my guess that the transformers are failing stands. Would
explain the flickering.

[dpb]

On 5/6/2012 7:55 PM, Duesenberg wrote:
> On 5/6/2012 8:39 PM, tange...@toyotamail.com wrote:

...

>> with the neon signs. I'm not sure what a neon sign uses for power? I'd
>> not think much, but I could be wrong. If that's a 15A breaker, it might
>> be at it's limit.

...

> Neon signs use transformers do they not? Don't many use 12 volts? Maybe
> unbalanced current in a couple of these transformers can trip the
> breaker when they are fired on all at once. just a humble guess

I think most bar signs and such are designed for 120V AC plug ins but
that's a guess; I never investigated. If they're old as sounds like
might be from the description of the locale, the inrush current could be
significant just like an electric motor as compared to operating current.

Supply voltages of 15 kV or thereabouts at mA currents. Roughly 200
W/50 running-ft of tube. Small window signs thus aren't much individually.

--

[Metspitzer]

On Sun, 06 May 2012 19:39:54 -0500, tange...@toyotamail.com wrote:

>On Sun, 6 May 2012 20:06:29 -0400, "Tomsic" <N...@no.net> wrote:
>
>>> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>Your thinking sounds right, but breakers respond in milliseconds so lots of
>>things could have been happening on a one-time basis when the power came
>>back on. It would be interesting to know what the average load is on that
>>breaker.
>>
>>Tomsic
>
>I may find out what the load is on that breaker one of these days. I'm
>friends with the owner and I might just take my amp meter over there
>when they are not busy and do some tests. I kind of think that breaker
>is overloaded. It's an old building and these days the taverns keep

You could ask the owner if the breaker that controls the circuit in
question gets warm. I never really used the touch test to trouble
shoot, but if the breaker is warm it may be close to the trip point.

[tange...@toyotamail.com]

You're correct. They put out high voltages, higher than the spark plugs
in a car. I have one of the transformers and it was fun the day I got
it to see how long of an arc it would throw. An inch was normal. I
actually think the older ones put out even higher voltages. probably
around 15kv. I know I would not want to touch it..... My livestock
fences operate at 2000 to 5000kv and I know what that feels like!!!

[tange...@toyotamail.com]

On Sun, 06 May 2012 21:06:59 -0400, Duesenberg <a...@123.com> wrote:

>On 5/6/2012 9:00 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
>> "Duesenberg"<a...@123.com> wrote in message
>> news:jo76ir$39d$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> Neon signs use transformers do they not? Don't many use 12 volts? Maybe
>>> unbalanced current in a couple of these transformers can trip the breaker
>>> when they are fired on all at once. just a humble guess
>>
>> I do not know about the newer ones, but the old type use a transformer that
>> puts out around 10,000 volts.
>>
>>
>
>you might be right on the voltage. I was thinking of newer stle LED
>lights made to look like neon. I've looked at the labels on those, but
>not real neon lights...
>

LED signs are a whole different matter. They are NOT neon signs. These
are the REAL neon signs. LED would draw little current.

>However my guess that the transformers are failing stands. Would
>explain the flickering.

Who said anything about flickering neon signs? I didn't!!!!

I said there is a florescent ceiling light that is going on an off, and
it's not on this same circuit, so it has nothing to do with this
problem. I just intend to change the bulbs or ballast (whatever it
needs).

[gregz]

I guess it all came on the same time after failure. That might rule out
that possibility. I have turned certain transformers on, and depending on
what part of the ac cycle, blew fuses. Some things are going to draw more
current at lower initial turn on too.

Greg

[tange...@toyotamail.com]

I intend to check that breaker for warmth.
The bar owner has to go around every day and push a switch on every
video game, and the jukebox, plus plug in each neon sign. Then do the
whole thing in reverse at closing time. I once asked why they dont just
shut off the breaker. The answer is that the 20(something) year old
girls that often open in the afternoon would not know what to do. Seems
kind of silly to me, but it works for them. There are 4 games, jukebox,
and 3 signs on that circuit. My guess is 5 more signs, 4 more games,
the lights above the 2 pool tables, the outdoor sign switch, and 3
strings of mini-lights above the bar to plug in. Add in the bathroom
lights, the 2 tv sets and they have 27 things to turn on or plug in.....
Kind of silly when a few breakers would do the whole thing, but that
would probably require a costly rewiring job.

[Ralph Mowery]

<tange...@toyotamail.com> wrote in message
news:cvbeq752e82eg0t1r...@4ax.com...

Many common breakers are just that. Over current devices. They are not
made to be used as switches and cut off and on every day. There are some
made that can be used for switches.

[tange...@toyotamail.com]

On Mon, 7 May 2012 02:31:32 +0000 (UTC), gregz <ze...@comcast.net>
wrote:

>I guess it all came on the same time after failure. That might rule out
>that possibility. I have turned certain transformers on, and depending on
>what part of the ac cycle, blew fuses. Some things are going to draw more
>current at lower initial turn on too.
>
>Greg

I know that CRT computer monitors and crt tv sets always draw a lot of
power upon starting. When I had them, I could see a surge on the room
lights, particularly when a dimmer was installed.

One of the games still is a CRT type. I was there tonite again, and
talked to the owner about it. I also noticed that I mis-counted. There
are actually 6 games, a jukebox, 3 signs a clock, and an ATM machine all
on that circuit. I also found out that the day they opened the bar some
years ago, they had a power failure. An electrician came and found
almost every outlet, except the ones behind the bar on the same circuit.
He split it into 4 breakers. One for each wall. But he said that back
then they only had 2 or 3 video games and a jukebox in the whole place.
The company the furnishes the games keeps bringing in more and more
stuff. He said the revenue from these games is small, but it all helps
pay the bills. But he also said the electric bill is much higher than
it used to be. Kind of makes me wonder if it's worth having all those
games.... I seldom see them being used.....

[Duesenberg]

>
> Who said anything about flickering neon signs? I didn't!!!!
>

Understood. Was not reading your post carefully, my apologies.

[Bob_Villa]

On Sunday, May 6, 2012 4:01:49 PM UTC-5, (unknown) wrote:
>
>This was probably due to a storm outdoors.
>

This is usually the case for storms...being outdoors! *L*

[Stormin Mormon]

You never had one of these?

http://static7.depositphotos.com/1011028/677/v/950/depositphotos_6775386-Magic-Snow-Dome.jpg
http://www.promo-wholesale.com/Upfiles/Prod_n/Import-Acrylic-Snow-Dome_20090827546.jpg

Being Mormon, and reader of Gary Larson's far side. I'd sure like a Donner
Party snow dome, some time. Appeals to my sick and twisted side.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Bob_Villa" <pheeh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:15588560.344.1336391583719.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynmc31...

[bob haller]

take a clamp on ampmeter, they work well, and are now cheap to buy and
easy to use

[Bob_Villa]

On Monday, May 7, 2012 7:35:15 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
>
>Appeals to my sick and twisted side.
>
> Christopher A. Young
> Learn more about Jesus
> www.lds.org
> .
>

Can't argue.

[Stormin Mormon]

Nothing like Donner Party snow domes, to keep a fat old man giggling.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Bob_Villa" <pheeh...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:2793218.1416.1336396423670.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yngt8...

[buffalobill]

maybe just replace the breaker. breaker age/fatigue could have it tripping at say 12 amps instead of 15. use a "kill a watt" meter at any outlet. electricians use a clamp on ammeter at the panel. test each device to match their wattage plates. you can call the power company on a slow day to check their power lines to the building meter for any damage. you can request a replacement power meter from the company.

[DD_BobK]

On May 6, 7:26 pm, tangeri...@toyotamail.com wrote:
SNIP

> I intend to check that breaker for warmth.
> The bar owner has to go around every day and push a switch on every
> video game, and the jukebox, plus plug in each neon sign.  Then do the
> whole thing in reverse at closing time.  I once asked why they dont just
> shut off the breaker.  The answer is that the 20(something) year old
> girls that often open in the afternoon would not know what to do.  Seems
> kind of silly to me, but it works for them.  There are 4 games, jukebox,
> and 3 signs on that circuit.  My guess is 5 more signs, 4 more games,
> the lights above the 2 pool tables, the outdoor sign switch, and 3
> strings of mini-lights above the bar to plug in.  Add in the bathroom
> lights, the 2 tv sets and they have 27 things to turn on or plug in.....
> Kind of silly when a few breakers would do the whole thing, but that
> would probably require a costly rewiring job.

If using the breaker as a switch is ok wrt what gets turned off, a
simple solution would be to wire a switch into the circuit as it
leaves the panel.

This could be worked into the circuit quite easily. If all the units
are on a single breaker....simple enough.

btw here is a link to QO trip curve

http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit%20Protection/Miniature%20Circuit%20Breakers/QO-QOB%20Circuit%20Breakers/730-3.pdf

Inrush current (the best results of my internet search) for neon
lights is about 3 to 5x higher than "running current".
Current of 5x rated breaker current will trip a QO in .6 secs.

Sounds like the inrush to the neons could have tripped the breaker.

cheers
Bob

[tange...@toyotamail.com]

On Mon, 7 May 2012 21:49:40 -0700 (PDT), DD_BobK <rkaz...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>If using the breaker as a switch is ok wrt what gets turned off, a
>simple solution would be to wire a switch into the circuit as it
>leaves the panel.
>
>This could be worked into the circuit quite easily. If all the units
>are on a single breaker....simple enough.
>
>btw here is a link to QO trip curve
>
>http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit%20Protection/Miniature%20Circui
t%20Breakers/QO-QOB%20Circuit%20Breakers/730-3.pdf
>
>Inrush current (the best results of my internet search) for neon
>lights is about 3 to 5x higher than "running current".
>Current of 5x rated breaker current will trip a QO in .6 secs.
>
>Sounds like the inrush to the neons could have tripped the breaker.
>
>cheers
>Bob
>

Interesting!!!!!
Those are some hefty transformers on the neons, at least those old ones
were.

As far as using breakers as switches, I used to work for a company that
did maintenance for industrial buildings. One of them was a church, and
they used the breaker panel for turning off all the church lights every
day. In fact they taped the breakers that were not meant to be turned
off (such as the ones to the offices, and ones that had computers or the
furnace or AC). I thought that taping them would defeat their ability
to trip as needed. The thing is that the church actually had light
switches, but they were scattered all over the place, so it was easier
to just flip about 8 breakers to turn everything off.

[dpb]

On 5/8/2012 12:37 PM, tange...@toyotamail.com wrote:
...

> ... One of them was a church, and

> they used the breaker panel for turning off all the church lights every
> day. In fact they taped the breakers that were not meant to be turned
> off (such as the ones to the offices, and ones that had computers or the
> furnace or AC). I thought that taping them would defeat their ability
> to trip as needed. The thing is that the church actually had light
> switches, but they were scattered all over the place, so it was easier
> to just flip about 8 breakers to turn everything off.

Other than your count is about six low, you must have been here.
Funny, I don't remember seeing you on Sunday mornings. :)

And no, the taping doesn't affect trip; the handle doesn't need to move
externally for the breaker to trip (and the tape isn't strong enough or
have enough grip to stop it anyway); it just serves as an indicator of
the "noninterruptible" circuits.

--

[HeyBub]

tange...@toyotamail.com wrote:
> Last night I was at a local tavern when the power went out in a large
> section of town. This was probably due to a storm outdoors. The
> power was only out for about 2 minutes. When it came back on, one
> wall containing several neon beer signs, a jukebox, and 4 video games
> did not come back on, while the rest of the building was fine. The
> bartender found that the breaker for that one wall had tripped, and
> had to reset it. Once reset, everything was fine.
>
> I dont understand why a power outage would cause that breaker to
> trip????
>
> My only thought is that this circuit is drawing near it's maximum
> amperage capacity for that breaker, and the surge of all those devices
> caused it to trip. Yet, if this is the case, why did it not trip when
> it was reset? The surge would be the same..... However, I got to
> thinking that when the whole section of town was turned back on, that
> the voltage would be low for a few seconds due to all the loads, and
> the lower voltage to those devices would cause then to attempt to
> compensate by drawing more amps...... Then the thought would be
> whether it's the electronics in the jukebox and video games, or the
> high voltage transformers on the neon signs that would draw the
> excess current?
> Does this make sense?
>
> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
>

Breakers are designed to trip while passing power. I'd be amazed if the
breaker tripped DURING the power outage.

[JIMMIE]

> Thanks

Back in the late 70s I worked in a game arcade. I opened the business about 4 PM and closed it around 11 PM . The owner had told me to shut down each machine individually and dont use the breaker. I didn't listen to him and started just shutting off the breakers(2 of them) and this worked for a while then one breaker would pop once in a while but come back up if I reset it. I figure still no big deal and kept on doing it until a couple of weeks later it didn't reset and had to be replaced. Owner was not happy with me.

Also would just about be willing to bet money the breaker is 15A. The circuit was probably never intended to have something plugged into every outlet and have them all come on at once.

[Steve Barker]

On 5/8/2012 12:37 PM, tange...@toyotamail.com wrote:

it's a very common practice in commercial places.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

[Metspitzer]

The breakers should be rated to be used as a switch, though.
https://www.google.com/search?q=switching%20duty&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&source=hp&channel=np#hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=a0Z&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&channel=np&sclient=psy-ab&q=switching+duty+breakers&oq=switching+duty+breakers&aq=f&aqi=g-v1&aql=&gs_l=serp.3..0i15.10305.12941.0.13068.9.3.0.6.6.1.1499.1746.0j2j7-1.3.0...0.0.BrZR_ml-uk4&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=ab407b5897f76374&biw=931&bih=525

[dpb]

On 5/8/2012 6:09 PM, Metspitzer wrote:
...

> The breakers should be rated to be used as a switch, though.

> https://www.google.com/search?q=switching%20duty&ie=...

AFAIK (and the Cutler-Hammer brochure I downloaded from the above link
indicates also) that this UL reqm't only applies to fluorescent lighting
loadings???

For commercial buildings like retail or office space, I'm sure they are.
I've never bothered to check whether the breakers at the church are
rated or not; the frequency of times they get switched is so low and the
loadings are limited that I've never worried about it.

This panel was installed in the mid-60s in a wiring upgrade to the
original (1920s) building in conjunction w/ an expansion project. AFAIK
there's never been a breaker failure in the 50 years since.

--

[dpb]

On 5/8/2012 12:49 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 5/8/2012 12:37 PM, tange...@toyotamail.com wrote:
> ....
>
>> ... One of them was a church, and
>> they used the breaker panel for turning off all the church lights every

>> day. ...

>
> Other than your count is about six low, you must have been here.

...

In this panel, however, for most circuits there are no switches. A
couple of circuits that service entry stairwells, hallways, etc., are
switched (and stay on) but the sanctuary lighting and all are not.

As are many commercial building main lighting circuits; there are some
switched for ingress/egress purposes but often the bulk is controlled
from the panel.

--

[Metspitzer]

That speaks for itself.

I have never bought a swd breaker either, but I would have expected
them to last longer if you are using them as switches.

[dpb]

On 5/8/2012 9:58 PM, Metspitzer wrote:
...

> I have never bought a swd breaker either, but I would have expected
> them to last longer if you are using them as switches.

I strongly suspect that is mostly related to how heavy the switching
cycle is as well as the switching load. There's two effects; the
mechanical mechanism and the possible arc/pitting of the actual contacts
afaict. Higher amps are obviously worse for the one; the mechanics of
the switch itself are the other and one presumes probably there's some
difference there in one intended for specific use as switch as compared
to "just" a breaker.

But, my sense is that for small loads and reasonable use the likelihood
is that the normal user wouldn't ever notice any difference at all.

--

[bud--]

From the UL White book:
"Circuit breakers marked "SWD" and rated 347 V or less are suitable for
switching fluorescent lighting loads on a regular basis at their rated
voltage.

"Circuit breakers marked "HID" have been investigated for switching
high-intensity discharge lighting loads on a regular basis at their
rated voltage.

"Circuit breakers rated 50 A or less and 125/250 V or less are
investigated for use with tungsten-filament lamp loads.

"Circuit breakers are tested under overload conditions at six times the
rating to cover motor circuit applications and are suitable for use as
motor circuit disconnects per Section 430.109 of the NEC.

"Circuit breakers investigated for use with heating, air conditioning
and refrigeration equipment comprising multi-motor or combination loads
are marked "HACR TYPE," in conjunction with the Listing Mark. Such
circuit breakers are suitable for use with heating, air conditioning and
refrigerating equipment marked for use with HACR type circuit breakers."
end quote


Both incandescent lamps and motors have an inrush/start current of about
6x normal current. Breakers are intended to not trip powering on
incandescents.

Contacts can be damaged by arcing when the breaker is opened repeatedly.
The old fluorescent ballasts were inductive and caused arcing - hence
SWD rating. (I don't think the electronic ballasts arc much on opening.)
My guess is HID ballasts are even more inductive and arc more on
opening. I don't remember ever seeing a "HID" rating.

I have no idea how "HACR" breakers are different.

A garden variety 20A SquareD breaker I looked at is marked "SWD" and "HACR".

--
bud--

[dpb]

On 5/9/2012 9:58 AM, bud-- wrote:
...

> I have no idea how "HACR" breakers are different.
>
> A garden variety 20A SquareD breaker I looked at is marked "SWD" and
> "HACR".

Since I'd expect there to be very few if any of those for only 15/20A
rating, better arc suppression/contact materials would be my guess as
the primary difference.

I'm not surprised; at such low currents and voltage arcing is pretty
minimal w/o anything very special at all; the UL testing simply confirms
the device is functional for the purpose specifically and gives a
category for even less expensive if a manufacturer so chooses.

--

[T. Keating]

On Sun, 06 May 2012 16:01:49 -0500, tange...@toyotamail.com wrote:

>Last night I was at a local tavern when the power went out in a large
>section of town. This was probably due to a storm outdoors. The power
>was only out for about 2 minutes. When it came back on, one wall
>containing several neon beer signs, a jukebox, and 4 video games did not
>come back on, while the rest of the building was fine. The bartender
>found that the breaker for that one wall had tripped, and had to reset
>it. Once reset, everything was fine.
>
>I dont understand why a power outage would cause that breaker to
>trip????

Why did the power go out in the first place??

Lightning strike perhaps? I.E. Voltage/current surge probably tripped
the Power CO's overload circuits..

The same surge could have tripped the breaker in question. Most video
games have power supplies protected by surge suppressor and
RF-filters. MOV's protect by shorting out the excess energy.

Thus the transient voltage spike resulted in large current surge which
could have tripped the breaker either when power was just about to
totally fail, or when it was abruptly restored.

Note: When significant HV circuits are interrupted or re-connected,
it's not exactly an instantously process (slow, hundreds of
milliseconds), and there is significant arcing involved. Arcing ==
major source of high frequency voltage spikes.