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All aluminum versus copper/aluminum coils for air conditioner?
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Smarty
Mar 31, 2012, 8:47:00 AM3/31/12
to
I have spoken with several HVAC contractors regarding replacement of my
old Lennox central air conditioning system. All of them are Lennox
dealers except one who also carries Trane products.
The dealer who also carries Trane was trying to switch me from my
original Lennox preference, stating that the Trane coils, which are 100%
aluminum, rather than the Lennox coils, which use aluminum fins and
copper tubing, provide a better, longer lasting design.
He felt that Trane was superior in other ways also, since they used
"composite plastics" in the outdoor condensing unit case rather than
steel to ensure that no corrosion or rusting would occur.
The basic claim was that Trane, using aluminum for all of the
refrigeration loop, had a longer life expectancy that Lennox, given the
newer Puron refrigerant.
Does anyone have any experience with Trane, and is there any science to
support this type of claim or any other prior experience to say that
Trane is somehow better?
Thanks for any advice.
old Lennox central air conditioning system. All of them are Lennox
dealers except one who also carries Trane products.
The dealer who also carries Trane was trying to switch me from my
original Lennox preference, stating that the Trane coils, which are 100%
aluminum, rather than the Lennox coils, which use aluminum fins and
copper tubing, provide a better, longer lasting design.
He felt that Trane was superior in other ways also, since they used
"composite plastics" in the outdoor condensing unit case rather than
steel to ensure that no corrosion or rusting would occur.
The basic claim was that Trane, using aluminum for all of the
refrigeration loop, had a longer life expectancy that Lennox, given the
newer Puron refrigerant.
Does anyone have any experience with Trane, and is there any science to
support this type of claim or any other prior experience to say that
Trane is somehow better?
Thanks for any advice.
tra...@optonline.net
Mar 31, 2012, 10:04:22 AM3/31/12
to
other sources. My conclusion was there wasn't any significant
difference
in the trouble history among the common brands. I think Goodman had
more
problems some years back. Some folks still don't like them.
It looked to me like you're paying a lot more for the name in a Trane
versus say a Rheem. When I looked at the data, Rheem had less
repair problems than the top name brands, but it wasn't enough to
be statistically significant,
As to the reliability of copper, two points. The system I replaced
was
a 27 year old Ruud. It was still running and never had a service
issue
other than needing to put in a hard start kit about 12 years into it's
service. So copper obviously lasts.
Second, if copper is the source of problems, ask the installer what
they are going to use for a line set. The line sets are all copper,
so you're going to have a lot more copper in the system from that
than from the coils. I would suspect that Trane's decision to use
all aluminum is based on something else. Look up the current
price of raw copper versus aluminum.
One thing that everyone should agree on is that you are far better
off getting what is perceived as a lesser brand that is installed
correctly than a Trane that is installed incorrectly. A simple
exampe is do they flow nitrogen when doing the brazing? A
half-assed installer can save and skip that. The result is you
have crud form inside the lines that leads to failure down the
road. Another
thing to find out, are they replacing your line set or re-using
the old one? IMO, for the couple hundred bucks, it's worth
going with new, but again, installers can cut corners. If
you do re-use them, they have to be properly flushed. Those
are examples of where you can get screwed and the typical
homeowner would never know.
Stormin Mormon
Mar 31, 2012, 11:06:48 AM3/31/12
to
It's been my experience that copper is a harder metal, and much easier to
work with, in terms of soldering or brazing. I've not tried aluminum, I'd
just expect it to melt out from under.
With no data except my gut hunch, I'd not put aluminum unit in my own home.
Until it had been on the market for several years.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Smarty" <nob...@nobody.com> wrote in message
news:jl6ubv$h9i$1...@dont-email.me...
work with, in terms of soldering or brazing. I've not tried aluminum, I'd
just expect it to melt out from under.
With no data except my gut hunch, I'd not put aluminum unit in my own home.
Until it had been on the market for several years.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Smarty" <nob...@nobody.com> wrote in message
news:jl6ubv$h9i$1...@dont-email.me...
Robert Macy
Mar 31, 2012, 1:47:42 PM3/31/12
to
How about doing what a friend of mine did when he went to purchase
something he didn't know anything about - insurance. He set up
appointments with several of the sales people ALL FOR THE SAME EXACT
TIME got them into one room and asked the question, "Why should I buy
yours and not theirs?" and turned them loose on each other to watch
and listen. He said that within 20 minutes he learned ptifalls NEVER
mentioned by any insurance agent/company what to buy and what NOT to
buy, He said best education he ever went through.
Ed Pawlowski
Mar 31, 2012, 3:09:08 PM3/31/12
to
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 11:06:48 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61***spam...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>It's been my experience that copper is a harder metal, and much easier to
>work with, in terms of soldering or brazing. I've not tried aluminum, I'd
>just expect it to melt out from under.
>
>With no data except my gut hunch, I'd not put aluminum unit in my own home.
>Until it had been on the market for several years.
>
It has been on the market for years. It is cheaper to build, more
<cayoung61***spam...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>It's been my experience that copper is a harder metal, and much easier to
>work with, in terms of soldering or brazing. I've not tried aluminum, I'd
>just expect it to melt out from under.
>
>With no data except my gut hunch, I'd not put aluminum unit in my own home.
>Until it had been on the market for several years.
>
difficult to field repair.
All aluminum coils were starting to come into play in the late 1960's.
I worked for a company that made HVAC units until 1970 and we made our
own copper tubed coils and they started to buy aluminum coils.
Smarty
Apr 1, 2012, 1:27:36 PM4/1/12
to
single reply............
This newsgroup really has become quite pathetic over the years, thanks
to the combined efforts of those who think it deserves to be a place to
discuss everything BUT home repair topics.
To the trolls who like to post about getting their cock caught in a
carpet stretcher, to harry who insists on rambling about all things
political to all the other folks who seem to think this is the right
place to show their skills in endless threads about nonsense, I say a
big FUCK YOU as you have effectively weakened the value of a very useful
forum and made it into a garbage pile.
Maybe some new forum will arise where people with home repair issues
won't be surrounded by these huge message turds which offer nothing of
value to the average home repair person.
Smarty
Apr 1, 2012, 1:31:24 PM4/1/12
to
taken the time to provide useful and helpful information which I
appreciate very much, and I am going to go with the copper / Lennox
approach. My very limited experience working with aluminum leads me to
the same conclusion you state and copper seems like the better choice. I
am guessing that aluminum is becoming popular more as a result of rising
copper costs than other, technical reasons.
Thanks again.
Stormin Mormon
Apr 1, 2012, 6:57:14 PM4/1/12
to
You didn't see my post?
Thinking about it some more, well, I have read a bit about repairing
aluminum, and it's a lot harder than repairing copper tubing. For that
reason (as well as what I mentioned earlier), I'd avoid the aluminum unit.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Smarty" <nob...@nobody.com> wrote in message
news:jla360$lul$1...@dont-email.me...
Thinking about it some more, well, I have read a bit about repairing
aluminum, and it's a lot harder than repairing copper tubing. For that
reason (as well as what I mentioned earlier), I'd avoid the aluminum unit.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Smarty" <nob...@nobody.com> wrote in message
Stormin Mormon
Apr 1, 2012, 6:58:16 PM4/1/12
to
I didn't think you saw what I wrote.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Smarty" <nob...@nobody.com> wrote in message
news:jla3d4$nuc$1...@dont-email.me...
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Smarty" <nob...@nobody.com> wrote in message
Bob F
Apr 1, 2012, 7:04:47 PM4/1/12
to
Smarty
Apr 1, 2012, 10:52:41 PM4/1/12
to
Tonight I did find this article (see link below) from a company which
apparently offers (only) aluminum and not copper heat exchangers /
coils, and they offer claims that aluminum is superior, but I am not
convinced. If they offered both and showed the relative benefits of
each, I might find it more convincing.
I guess I am both too old and also too old-fashion to get very excited
about an all aluminum solution. Since Trane is the only A/C manufacturer
using it as far as I know, I have to believe it is not the obviously
better solution, especially given the relative costs of copper versus
aluminum.
Thanks again for replying.
http://www.hydro.com/en/Subsites/Hydro-Aluminium-Precision-Tubing/HVACR/Hydro-FAQ/Comparison-of-aluminium-and-copper/
>
>
Ed Pawlowski
Apr 2, 2012, 5:50:25 AM4/2/12
to
On Sun, 01 Apr 2012 22:52:41 -0400, Smarty <nob...@nobody.com> wrote:
>Tonight I did find this article (see link below) from a company which
>apparently offers (only) aluminum and not copper heat exchangers /
>coils, and they offer claims that aluminum is superior, but I am not
>convinced. If they offered both and showed the relative benefits of
>each, I might find it more convincing.
>
>I guess I am both too old and also too old-fashion to get very excited
>about an all aluminum solution. Since Trane is the only A/C manufacturer
>using it as far as I know, I have to believe it is not the obviously
>better solution, especially given the relative costs of copper versus
>aluminum.
>
>Thanks again for replying.
>
>http://www.hydro.com/en/Subsites/Hydro-Aluminium-Precision-Tubing/HVACR/Hydro-FAQ/Comparison-of-aluminium-and-copper/
>
This, IMO, is the most important line of the story:
>Tonight I did find this article (see link below) from a company which
>apparently offers (only) aluminum and not copper heat exchangers /
>coils, and they offer claims that aluminum is superior, but I am not
>convinced. If they offered both and showed the relative benefits of
>each, I might find it more convincing.
>
>I guess I am both too old and also too old-fashion to get very excited
>about an all aluminum solution. Since Trane is the only A/C manufacturer
>using it as far as I know, I have to believe it is not the obviously
>better solution, especially given the relative costs of copper versus
>aluminum.
>
>Thanks again for replying.
>
>http://www.hydro.com/en/Subsites/Hydro-Aluminium-Precision-Tubing/HVACR/Hydro-FAQ/Comparison-of-aluminium-and-copper/
>
"Thus, together with the cost savings of replacing copper with
aluminium, the accumulated benefits of switching to all-aluminium heat
exchangers are considerable."
It about the money.
tra...@optonline.net
Apr 2, 2012, 9:04:13 AM4/2/12
to
>
Yeah, exactly. He got replies from 4 different people
and he's bitching?
Vic Smith
Apr 2, 2012, 9:14:35 AM4/2/12
to
Silver is a better conductor than copper.
I don't have a Trane system, but I wouldn't avoid one because it uses
aluminum coils.
Trane markets their Spine-fin aluminum coils as a selling point.
They've been selling them for outdoor units since 1968.
The coils are only one part of a system.
I don't know the cost difference between the manufacturers.
I would grill some *good* HVAC guys to find out about his.
You don't want somebody selling you a crap system with a lousy
compressor and inefficient operation because he brags
"This unit has copper coils." BFD.
In this thread it's said aluminum heat exchanger manufacturing cost
eats up the savings vs using copper.
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=139016
But that thread is from 2007, when copper prices were lower.
Here "something" more. Probably all marketing BS.
www.sapagroup.com/pages/26202/sapa_hvac_white_paper.pdf
http://www.alcoil.net/applications.htm
Anyway, there are SEER ratings, and HVAC guys who have long experience
with this.
Whether it's aluminum or copper is just one thing to consider.
My furnace and central air is Rheem.
Except for getting the main board replaced, it's all worked fine for
13 years.
Why do I have a Rheem?
Because my brother was a GC then, needed the work, and had a HVAC
installer sub who needed work. They decided I got Rheem..
Maybe I could have done better on the cost by shopping, maybe not.
But hey. what goes around comes around.
--Vic
Smarty
Apr 2, 2012, 10:24:03 AM4/2/12
to
Like most things, it will be a bit of a coin toss in the final analysis,
but I wanted to see if this whole aluminum versus copper thing was a
"red herring" thrown out by a dealer whose profit potential or other
motives makes him sell both Lennox and Trane, and then recommend Trane
for this specific reason of aluminum coils.
Thanks again!
>
>
>
Vic Smith
Apr 2, 2012, 5:00:26 PM4/2/12
to
They went into limboland until today.
Did for me anyway.
A bunch of 3-4 day old posts just appeared.
Shep
Mar 28, 2015, 12:44:06 AM3/28/15
to
replying to Smarty , Shep wrote:
copper coils. Since the SEER minimum increase to 13, manufacturers started
making copper coils even thinner, which leads to faster corrosion and
holes caused by formic acid. Aluminum coils are not susceptible to this
deterioration and holes from formic acid.
--
> nobody wrote:
>
> Thanks Ed for your reply and information. I just noticed that you have
> taken the time to provide useful and helpful information which I
> appreciate very much, and I am going to go with the copper / Lennox
> approach. My very limited experience working with aluminum leads me to
> the same conclusion you state and copper seems like the better choice. I
> am guessing that aluminum is becoming popular more as a result of rising
> copper costs than other, technical reasons.
> Thanks again.
I did a little research, and it seems formaldehyde forms formic acid on
>
> Thanks Ed for your reply and information. I just noticed that you have
> taken the time to provide useful and helpful information which I
> appreciate very much, and I am going to go with the copper / Lennox
> approach. My very limited experience working with aluminum leads me to
> the same conclusion you state and copper seems like the better choice. I
> am guessing that aluminum is becoming popular more as a result of rising
> copper costs than other, technical reasons.
> Thanks again.
copper coils. Since the SEER minimum increase to 13, manufacturers started
making copper coils even thinner, which leads to faster corrosion and
holes caused by formic acid. Aluminum coils are not susceptible to this
deterioration and holes from formic acid.
--
mangino
Apr 18, 2015, 10:44:04 PM4/18/15
to
replying to Smarty , mangino wrote:
My Carrier air conditioning units are almost 9 years old and the copper
evaporator coils are totally rusted. I have an air conditioning guy that I
totally trust and he told me something interesting. He said that Carrier
knows that there are issues with the coils rusting out prematurely.
Carrier use to have all aluminum coils and aluminum never rusts. Carrier
and other manufacturers realized if they switched to copper coils their
customers would have to replace their coils approximately every 6 to 8
years (10 years if you were lucky). So it all comes down to what's called
"Planned Obsolescence" and you see it practiced with almost everything you
buy these days. It just puts more money back in the pockets of the
manufacturer and repair industry.
He also told me that Carrier and others are starting to bring back
aluminum because of the backlash from customers. I am now getting aluminum
coils installed.
--
evaporator coils are totally rusted. I have an air conditioning guy that I
totally trust and he told me something interesting. He said that Carrier
knows that there are issues with the coils rusting out prematurely.
Carrier use to have all aluminum coils and aluminum never rusts. Carrier
and other manufacturers realized if they switched to copper coils their
customers would have to replace their coils approximately every 6 to 8
years (10 years if you were lucky). So it all comes down to what's called
"Planned Obsolescence" and you see it practiced with almost everything you
buy these days. It just puts more money back in the pockets of the
manufacturer and repair industry.
He also told me that Carrier and others are starting to bring back
aluminum because of the backlash from customers. I am now getting aluminum
coils installed.
--
bob haller
Apr 19, 2015, 12:11:52 AM4/19/15
to
a good friend from the 1970s who taught HVAC around here highly recommends goodman. they use standard parts that are commonly availble from many sources.
unlike trane and others that use OEM parts with no alternate suppliers, so they decide when a model is obsolete. they just quit supplying parts.
my goodman is working fine its 8 or 10 years old and came with a great warranty
unlike trane and others that use OEM parts with no alternate suppliers, so they decide when a model is obsolete. they just quit supplying parts.
my goodman is working fine its 8 or 10 years old and came with a great warranty
trader_4
Apr 19, 2015, 9:10:35 AM4/19/15
to
on the theory of making some more money. If your evaporator goes
at 8 years, how many customers are going to go with another Carrier
or even an evaporator replacement? At that point, most people are
going to get a new system and it likely wouldn't be Carrier. Also
given the cost delta between copper and aluminum, I find it hard
to believe it's even true that Carrier went back to copper coils,
unless there is some other valid reason for it.
Ed Pawlowski
Apr 19, 2015, 9:25:01 AM4/19/15
to
On 4/19/2015 9:10 AM, trader_4 wrote:
>
> Seems kind of odd that Carrier would switch to copper from aluminum
> on the theory of making some more money. If your evaporator goes
> at 8 years, how many customers are going to go with another Carrier
> or even an evaporator replacement? At that point, most people are
> going to get a new system and it likely wouldn't be Carrier. Also
> given the cost delta between copper and aluminum, I find it hard
> to believe it's even true that Carrier went back to copper coils,
> unless there is some other valid reason for it.
>
Things have probably changes since I worked for a company that made
>
> Seems kind of odd that Carrier would switch to copper from aluminum
> on the theory of making some more money. If your evaporator goes
> at 8 years, how many customers are going to go with another Carrier
> or even an evaporator replacement? At that point, most people are
> going to get a new system and it likely wouldn't be Carrier. Also
> given the cost delta between copper and aluminum, I find it hard
> to believe it's even true that Carrier went back to copper coils,
> unless there is some other valid reason for it.
>
coils. Back then, they were copper and full aluminum was just starting
to be made by a couple of companies. The only reason they changed was
cost.
We had been making copper coils for many years and it would have been
costly to change over with all the equipment involved and we did not
make large quantities of a given size like Carrier. We did specialties
from 6" x 6" to 4' x 20' For tubing we used copper, brass, cupro-nickle
mangino
Apr 19, 2015, 12:44:09 PM4/19/15
to
replying to trader_4 , mangino wrote:
to planned obsolence) and it's called Formicary Corrosion. You can get the
FACTS by reading the industry research report containing scientific
studies and analysis going into the details of aluminum versus copper.
These are details you won't get from your air conditioning company.
Here's the link :
http://www.conditionedairsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/01-811-20345-25.pdf
--
> trader4 wrote:
>
> Seems kind of odd that Carrier would switch to copper from aluminum
> on the theory of making some more money. If your evaporator goes
> at 8 years, how many customers are going to go with another Carrier
> or even an evaporator replacement? At that point, most people are
> going to get a new system and it likely wouldn't be Carrier. Also
> given the cost delta between copper and aluminum, I find it hard
> to believe it's even true that Carrier went back to copper coils,
> unless there is some other valid reason for it.
Yes there is another valid reason for the switch to aluminum (in addition
>
> Seems kind of odd that Carrier would switch to copper from aluminum
> on the theory of making some more money. If your evaporator goes
> at 8 years, how many customers are going to go with another Carrier
> or even an evaporator replacement? At that point, most people are
> going to get a new system and it likely wouldn't be Carrier. Also
> given the cost delta between copper and aluminum, I find it hard
> to believe it's even true that Carrier went back to copper coils,
> unless there is some other valid reason for it.
to planned obsolence) and it's called Formicary Corrosion. You can get the
FACTS by reading the industry research report containing scientific
studies and analysis going into the details of aluminum versus copper.
These are details you won't get from your air conditioning company.
Here's the link :
http://www.conditionedairsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/01-811-20345-25.pdf
--
Ed Pawlowski
Apr 19, 2015, 4:21:47 PM4/19/15
to
On 4/19/2015 12:44 PM, mangino wrote:
>
> Yes there is another valid reason for the switch to aluminum (in addition
> to planned obsolence) and it's called Formicary Corrosion. You can get the
> FACTS by reading the industry research report containing scientific
> studies and analysis going into the details of aluminum versus copper.
> These are details you won't get from your air conditioning company.
> Here's the link :
> http://www.conditionedairsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/01-811-20345-25.pdf
>
>
While I found the link interesting, how do you expect us to continue a
>
> Yes there is another valid reason for the switch to aluminum (in addition
> to planned obsolence) and it's called Formicary Corrosion. You can get the
> FACTS by reading the industry research report containing scientific
> studies and analysis going into the details of aluminum versus copper.
> These are details you won't get from your air conditioning company.
> Here's the link :
> http://www.conditionedairsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/01-811-20345-25.pdf
>
>
discussion when you mess up a lot of good arguments with FACTS?
trader_4
Apr 19, 2015, 4:44:17 PM4/19/15
to
is exactly opposite to what he's claiming. He stated that Carrier
allegedly switched to copper coils from aluminum so that they would
fail faster. Yet the document says Carrier is using aluminum coils
because they are corrosion resistant and superior. I don't see them
saying they went back to copper..... So, I don't see what all the
fuss is about.
Robert Green
Apr 19, 2015, 8:24:23 PM4/19/15
to
"Ed Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:guWdnW07a5TLk6nI...@giganews.com...
I am sure that there are enough posters here to sustain *any* argument, with
or without facts.
When I saw the word formicary (formica means ant in Italian) I decided to go
look it up to see if it was related to ants (or Formica - which people tell
me stands for "FORmerly MICArta). This is another site that describes the
problem and claims it can occur within two months after manufacture.
http://www.microchannelfacts.com/formicary-corrosion
<<Formicary corrosion is a type of corrosion also referred to by HVAC
contractors as "ant's nest" corrosion.>>
They say it can't be seen with the naked eye but I assume if any kind of
corrosion gets bad enough, it will become visible to normal vision.
Learn something new every day!
--
Bobby G.
news:guWdnW07a5TLk6nI...@giganews.com...
or without facts.
When I saw the word formicary (formica means ant in Italian) I decided to go
look it up to see if it was related to ants (or Formica - which people tell
me stands for "FORmerly MICArta). This is another site that describes the
problem and claims it can occur within two months after manufacture.
http://www.microchannelfacts.com/formicary-corrosion
<<Formicary corrosion is a type of corrosion also referred to by HVAC
contractors as "ant's nest" corrosion.>>
They say it can't be seen with the naked eye but I assume if any kind of
corrosion gets bad enough, it will become visible to normal vision.
Learn something new every day!
--
Bobby G.
DCB
Jul 23, 2015, 7:44:04 PM7/23/15
to
replying to mangino , DCB wrote:
--
> mangino wrote:
>
> My Carrier air conditioning units are almost 9 years old and the copper
> evaporator coils are totally rusted. I have an air conditioning guy that I
> totally trust and he told me something interesting. He said that Carrier
knows
> that there are issues with the coils rusting out prematurely. Carrier use
to
> have all aluminum coils and aluminum never rusts. Carrier and other
> manufacturers realized if they switched to copper coils their customers
would
> have to replace their coils approximately every 6 to 8 years (10 years if
you
> were lucky). So it all comes down to what's called "Planned Obsolescence"
and
> you see it practiced with almost everything you buy these days. It just
puts
> more money back in the pockets of the manufacturer and repair industry.
> He also told me that Carrier and others are starting to bring back aluminum
> because of the backlash from customers. I am now getting aluminum coils
> installed.
LOL Copper does not RUST.... Hilarious
>
> My Carrier air conditioning units are almost 9 years old and the copper
> evaporator coils are totally rusted. I have an air conditioning guy that I
> totally trust and he told me something interesting. He said that Carrier
knows
> that there are issues with the coils rusting out prematurely. Carrier use
to
> have all aluminum coils and aluminum never rusts. Carrier and other
> manufacturers realized if they switched to copper coils their customers
would
> have to replace their coils approximately every 6 to 8 years (10 years if
you
> were lucky). So it all comes down to what's called "Planned Obsolescence"
and
> you see it practiced with almost everything you buy these days. It just
puts
> more money back in the pockets of the manufacturer and repair industry.
> He also told me that Carrier and others are starting to bring back aluminum
> because of the backlash from customers. I am now getting aluminum coils
> installed.
--
DCB
Jul 23, 2015, 7:44:05 PM7/23/15
to
replying to mangino , DCB wrote:
> mangino wrote:
>
> mangino wrote:
>
> Yes there is another valid reason for the switch to aluminum (in addition
to
> planned obsolence) and it's called Formicary Corrosion. You can get the
FACTS by
> reading the industry research report containing scientific studies and
analysis
> going into the details of aluminum versus copper. These are details you
won't
> get from your air conditioning company.
> Here's the link :
>
http://www.conditionedairsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/01-811-20345-25.pdf
So Silly, one it is difficulty to diagnose, two less that 10% of all AC
to
> planned obsolence) and it's called Formicary Corrosion. You can get the
FACTS by
> reading the industry research report containing scientific studies and
analysis
> going into the details of aluminum versus copper. These are details you
won't
> get from your air conditioning company.
> Here's the link :
>
http://www.conditionedairsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/01-811-20345-25.pdf
systems have been affected by Formicary Corrosion; and it is usually
caused by contaminants in the "sealed" system.
--
DCB
Jul 23, 2015, 7:44:05 PM7/23/15
to
replying to Robert Green , DCB wrote:
pin hole mesh; It is rare and is usually caused internally not externally
with the introduction of a acidic contaminant in the system.
Copper is tried an true, lasts for decades, provides 2X the heat exchange.
(it is the reason that ALL computer CPU cooling is COPPER)
Aluminum is cheaper and easier to bend; which is important because the
MFG's have to come up with creative solutions to make up for the reduced
heat transfer.
Additionally, copper is easier to repair and unless the Aluminum system
does not have copper anywhere it is more likely to see corrosion where
Aluminum touches copper then copper has of Formicary Corrosion
Cheers
--
> robert_green1963 wrote:
>
> "Ed Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote in message
> news:guWdnW07a5TLk6nI...@giganews.com...
>
http://www.conditionedairsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/01-811-20345-25.pdf
>
> "Ed Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote in message
> news:guWdnW07a5TLk6nI...@giganews.com...
>
> I am sure that there are enough posters here to sustain *any* argument,
with
> or without facts.
> When I saw the word formicary (formica means ant in Italian) I decided to
go
> look it up to see if it was related to ants (or Formica - which people
tell
> me stands for "FORmerly MICArta). This is another site that describes the
> problem and claims it can occur within two months after manufacture.
> http://www.microchannelfacts.com/formicary-corrosion
> <<Formicary corrosion is a type of corrosion also referred to by HVAC
> contractors as "ant's nest" corrosion.>>
> They say it can't be seen with the naked eye but I assume if any kind of
> corrosion gets bad enough, it will become visible to normal vision.
> Learn something new every day!
Formicary Corrosion can never been seen, it is the very definition of the
with
> or without facts.
> When I saw the word formicary (formica means ant in Italian) I decided to
go
> look it up to see if it was related to ants (or Formica - which people
tell
> me stands for "FORmerly MICArta). This is another site that describes the
> problem and claims it can occur within two months after manufacture.
> http://www.microchannelfacts.com/formicary-corrosion
> <<Formicary corrosion is a type of corrosion also referred to by HVAC
> contractors as "ant's nest" corrosion.>>
> They say it can't be seen with the naked eye but I assume if any kind of
> corrosion gets bad enough, it will become visible to normal vision.
> Learn something new every day!
pin hole mesh; It is rare and is usually caused internally not externally
with the introduction of a acidic contaminant in the system.
Copper is tried an true, lasts for decades, provides 2X the heat exchange.
(it is the reason that ALL computer CPU cooling is COPPER)
Aluminum is cheaper and easier to bend; which is important because the
MFG's have to come up with creative solutions to make up for the reduced
heat transfer.
Additionally, copper is easier to repair and unless the Aluminum system
does not have copper anywhere it is more likely to see corrosion where
Aluminum touches copper then copper has of Formicary Corrosion
Cheers
--
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Jul 23, 2015, 9:01:20 PM7/23/15
to
in them. I've even got a pile of them tat a magnet will stick to -
not very well, being stainless steel of all things (very poor thermal
conductivity, but goot thermal mass - with heat pipes to stainless
steel fins, plus folded fins that appear to be aluminum (definitely
not copper) fused to the stainless plate.
These all came from P4 and Core Duo equipped Lenovo desktop units.
Most of the rest of my stask are extruded aliminum -I had a couple
copper ones from ancient Dell PCs (Inspiron 2400??)
Message has been deleted
Robert Green
Jul 24, 2015, 10:23:57 AM7/24/15
to
<gfre...@aol.com> wrote in message
<stuff snipped>
> I have a huge box of heat sinks from computers that date back to the
> 60s through P4 class machines and they are all aluminum.
> The only copper I have ever seen is in a WYSE "thin client" machine
> and it is a short 6 gauge copper wire that connects the aluminum CPU
> heat sink to a much larger aluminum heat sink next to it.
I've got a bunch of heat sinks/cooling fans for CPUs and some of them did
have a highly polished copper insert that sat right on the chip (with
thermal gunk - amazing how much of a difference that stuff makes!)
But by and large they were mostly huge junks of aluminum. There were also
sinks that had a bracket that allowed use of a slower, quieter (and harder
to plug with dirt) 80cm cooling fan suspended over the CPU. I bought a lot
of spares and then switched almost exclusively to tablet PC's I got from
Ebay. )-: Not sure what to do with all those spares and for that matter all
the SCSI cards, 10Mb NICs, Archive tape controllers (a whopping 250Mb of
backup tape - huge for its time), old modem cards, ISA controllers, EISA
controllers, SCSI cables (I, II and III) and a host of other stuff from days
gone by. Did I mention my wife says I am a hoarder?
(-:
--
Bobby G.
<stuff snipped>
> I have a huge box of heat sinks from computers that date back to the
> 60s through P4 class machines and they are all aluminum.
> The only copper I have ever seen is in a WYSE "thin client" machine
> and it is a short 6 gauge copper wire that connects the aluminum CPU
> heat sink to a much larger aluminum heat sink next to it.
I've got a bunch of heat sinks/cooling fans for CPUs and some of them did
have a highly polished copper insert that sat right on the chip (with
thermal gunk - amazing how much of a difference that stuff makes!)
But by and large they were mostly huge junks of aluminum. There were also
sinks that had a bracket that allowed use of a slower, quieter (and harder
to plug with dirt) 80cm cooling fan suspended over the CPU. I bought a lot
of spares and then switched almost exclusively to tablet PC's I got from
Ebay. )-: Not sure what to do with all those spares and for that matter all
the SCSI cards, 10Mb NICs, Archive tape controllers (a whopping 250Mb of
backup tape - huge for its time), old modem cards, ISA controllers, EISA
controllers, SCSI cables (I, II and III) and a host of other stuff from days
gone by. Did I mention my wife says I am a hoarder?
(-:
--
Bobby G.
Message has been deleted
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Jul 24, 2015, 1:19:08 PM7/24/15
to
ago!!!!!
Message has been deleted
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Jul 24, 2015, 2:55:24 PM7/24/15
to
On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 13:44:11 -0400, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>I still have a stack of SCSI drives. I should plug them in and see
>what I was doing way back in the 20th century. A couple date from the
>day I retired in 1996 and have not spun since. These are the old
>technology drives and I bet they will still work.
If you can find a buss slot to plug the Scsi controller into, and
drivers for the current OS, or a compatible SCSI controller for your
computer.
>what I was doing way back in the 20th century. A couple date from the
>day I retired in 1996 and have not spun since. These are the old
>technology drives and I bet they will still work.
If you can find a buss slot to plug the Scsi controller into, and
drivers for the current OS, or a compatible SCSI controller for your
computer.
Message has been deleted
DCB
Jul 24, 2015, 11:44:05 PM7/24/15
to
replying to Robert Green , DCB wrote:
> robert_green1963 wrote:
>
> robert_green1963 wrote:
>
> I've got a bunch of heat sinks/cooling fans for CPUs and some of them did
> have a highly polished copper insert that sat right on the chip (with
> thermal gunk - amazing how much of a difference that stuff makes!)
> But by and large they were mostly huge junks of aluminum. There were also
> sinks that had a bracket that allowed use of a slower, quieter (and harder
> to plug with dirt) 80cm cooling fan suspended over the CPU. I bought a
lot
> of spares and then switched almost exclusively to tablet PC's I got from
> Ebay. )-: Not sure what to do with all those spares and for that matter
all
> the SCSI cards, 10Mb NICs, Archive tape controllers (a whopping 250Mb of
> backup tape - huge for its time), old modem cards, ISA controllers, EISA
> controllers, SCSI cables (I, II and III) and a host of other stuff from
days
> gone by. Did I mention my wife says I am a hoarder?
> (-:
> --
> Bobby G.
If you cut them open you will find that any decent heat sink for high
> have a highly polished copper insert that sat right on the chip (with
> thermal gunk - amazing how much of a difference that stuff makes!)
> But by and large they were mostly huge junks of aluminum. There were also
> sinks that had a bracket that allowed use of a slower, quieter (and harder
> to plug with dirt) 80cm cooling fan suspended over the CPU. I bought a
lot
> of spares and then switched almost exclusively to tablet PC's I got from
> Ebay. )-: Not sure what to do with all those spares and for that matter
all
> the SCSI cards, 10Mb NICs, Archive tape controllers (a whopping 250Mb of
> backup tape - huge for its time), old modem cards, ISA controllers, EISA
> controllers, SCSI cables (I, II and III) and a host of other stuff from
days
> gone by. Did I mention my wife says I am a hoarder?
> (-:
> --
> Bobby G.
speed processors all have copper heat tubes and copper exchangers. They
can have aluminum fins but the heat exchange is copper, why? because
copper has 2x the thermal exchange of aluminum.
Also I find it interesting that the Carrier article is about evaporator
coils not condenser coils, yet its the condenser coils that are being
changed to aluminum while almost all of the evaporator coils remain copper.
--
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Jul 25, 2015, 12:48:02 AM7/25/15
to
they are a lot easier to braze and solder than aluminum)
I DO have a copper aftermarket heat sink I forgot about - and even IT
has a stainless steel thermal mass plate into which the4 heat pipes
are fitted. It's a "ZeroTherm" BTF95 (Butterfly) passive unit (no fan)
and also has a copper "transfer pad".
These tend to be used by the same geeks that buy "oxygen free" copper
speaker cables. The reviews tend to re-enforce my opinion - They dont
cool worth squat. (at $60 MSRP it does not outperform the OEM intel
aluminum heat sink)
mj
Oct 8, 2015, 2:44:06 PM10/8/15
to
replying to Ed Pawlowski , mj wrote:
> esp wrote:
>
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 11:06:48 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
> It has been on the market for years. It is cheaper to build, more
> difficult to field repair.
> All aluminum coils were starting to come into play in the late 1960's.
> I worked for a company that made HVAC units until 1970 and we made our
> own copper tubed coils and they started to buy aluminum coils.
I have a 3 year old Trane 4 ton unit. It has aluminum coil. It has been
serviced 9 times for slime on the coils. I have been told that if it had
some copper, like my two 1 1/2 ton units, I would not have this problem.
My repair company is trying something new-laying pieces of copper tubing
in the pan to try to stop the slime build up.
--
> esp wrote:
>
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 11:06:48 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
> It has been on the market for years. It is cheaper to build, more
> difficult to field repair.
> All aluminum coils were starting to come into play in the late 1960's.
> I worked for a company that made HVAC units until 1970 and we made our
> own copper tubed coils and they started to buy aluminum coils.
I have a 3 year old Trane 4 ton unit. It has aluminum coil. It has been
serviced 9 times for slime on the coils. I have been told that if it had
some copper, like my two 1 1/2 ton units, I would not have this problem.
My repair company is trying something new-laying pieces of copper tubing
in the pan to try to stop the slime build up.
--
trader_4
Oct 8, 2015, 3:02:02 PM10/8/15
to
toxic to barnacles. Which leave one wondering how it's OK in copper
water pipe? I guess very little leaches out? But if that's the case,
how would having copper tubing in the coils kill slime? Zinc is used on
roofs with problems to keep algae from growing. If you drive around here,
you can see roofs where there is no algae on the roofs below flashings,
vents, etc that are made of zinc.
Stormin Mormon
Oct 8, 2015, 3:39:58 PM10/8/15
to
On 10/8/2015 3:01 PM, trader_4 wrote:
> Interesting. I know copper is used in boat bottom paint because it's
> toxic to barnacles. Which leave one wondering how it's OK in copper
> water pipe? I guess very little leaches out? But if that's the case,
> how would having copper tubing in the coils kill slime? Zinc is used on
> roofs with problems to keep algae from growing. If you drive around here,
> you can see roofs where there is no algae on the roofs below flashings,
> vents, etc that are made of zinc.
>
Science comes the full circle. Now they will
> Interesting. I know copper is used in boat bottom paint because it's
> toxic to barnacles. Which leave one wondering how it's OK in copper
> water pipe? I guess very little leaches out? But if that's the case,
> how would having copper tubing in the coils kill slime? Zinc is used on
> roofs with problems to keep algae from growing. If you drive around here,
> you can see roofs where there is no algae on the roofs below flashings,
> vents, etc that are made of zinc.
>
come out with lead pills to deal with copper
poisoning.
-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.
mako...@yahoo.com
Oct 9, 2015, 9:41:48 AM10/9/15
to
On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 2:44:06 PM UTC-4, mj wrote:
Whatever type of coil you have, water is the enemy.
Of course water will form from condensation when it is cooling.
So my take is that to reduce corrosion of the coil, set the blower to run all the time when you are using the AC.
This way when the compressor cycles off, the blower will continue to run and air dry the coil. You don't want the coil to sit there wet for no reason.
Mark
eo
Aug 19, 2016, 8:14:06 AM8/19/16
to
replying to Smarty, eo wrote:
I think that Lenox is moving to aluminum at least for a while until new copper
coils with less problams are available. At least when the copper cil in my
new ( september 2015) slp98 system went bad with six leaks they put in an
aluminum coil
--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/all-aluminum-versus-copper-aluminum-coils-for-air-conditione-690615-.htm
I think that Lenox is moving to aluminum at least for a while until new copper
coils with less problams are available. At least when the copper cil in my
new ( september 2015) slp98 system went bad with six leaks they put in an
aluminum coil
--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/all-aluminum-versus-copper-aluminum-coils-for-air-conditione-690615-.htm
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
jpca...@vseconsult.com
Sep 7, 2016, 2:05:09 AM9/7/16
to
On Saturday, March 31, 2012 at 5:47:00 AM UTC-7, Smarty wrote:
> I have spoken with several HVAC contractors regarding replacement of my
> old Lennox central air conditioning system. All of them are Lennox
> dealers except one who also carries Trane products.
>
> The dealer who also carries Trane was trying to switch me from my
> original Lennox preference, stating that the Trane coils, which are 100%
> aluminum, rather than the Lennox coils, which use aluminum fins and
> copper tubing, provide a better, longer lasting design.
>
> He felt that Trane was superior in other ways also, since they used
> "composite plastics" in the outdoor condensing unit case rather than
> steel to ensure that no corrosion or rusting would occur.
>
> The basic claim was that Trane, using aluminum for all of the
> refrigeration loop, had a longer life expectancy that Lennox, given the
> newer Puron refrigerant.
>
> Does anyone have any experience with Trane, and is there any science to
> support this type of claim or any other prior experience to say that
> Trane is somehow better?
>
> Thanks for any advice.
I've worked in the HVAC trade and would like to share some up-to-date facts about copper versus aluminum condensing units and evaporator coils.
First, let me separate all A/C coils with fins from coils with all-aluminum spines known as 'Spine-Fin' made by Trane and sold by Trane and related companies, used in outdoor condensing units and heat pumps. I recommend against products that use the spine-fin design. This design is notorious for plugging up; loading up with cottonwood fluff, spider silk, leaf litter, insect debris etc. Regular visits from the service man are a necessity to burn the debris out of the coil with a torch since washing with the powerful spray cleaners normally employed in coil cleaning is ineffective on spine-fin coils.
Copper tube coils with aluminum fins versus all-aluminum tube coils with aluminum fins...
1a) Money - Copper prices went out of control high when the Chinese economy boomed prior to the Great Recession of 2008. It only reasonable for U.S. manufacturers to anticipate future copper metal price spikes in considering potential future cost and potential copper shortages. Aluminum metal is plentiful, but uses a great deal of electrical energy to refine the ore.
Advantage aluminum.
1b) Aside from the cost of copper metal, aluminum coils are more difficult and costly to manufacture. This is in large measure because it is difficult to join aluminum tubes because of the thin layer of oxide that forms on aluminum. Copper is much easier to join and repair. New aluminum soldering alloys were developed over recent years that have improved the process of producing all-aluminum coils, although it is still remains difficult to repair an aluminum coil in the field.
Advantage copper.
2) Higher refrigerant pressures - New EPA mandated chlorine-free refrigerants replaced long time standard HCFC refrigerant R-22 in 2012. An example of a new refrigerant is Carrier's Puron (which is known in the trade as R-410a) which operates at higher pressure than R-22, so the tubing used in making new condensing and evaporator coils must have thicker walls to resist the higher pressure.
The new refrigerants heat-carrying ability, known as its enthalpy, fluid ounce for ounce, is less than that of R-22. Combined with other physical properties, greater mass flow is needed to move the same quantity of heat, thus larger coils are needed. Larger coils mean more metal used. A-coils in evaporators (at the furnace end) become N-coils to absorb the heat from the air stream, and condensers (found outdoors to move the heat into the air) must be much larger to handle double the flow of refrigerant. EPA also mandated higher Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratios (SEER) for air conditioners and heat pumps, requiring these coils to be made larger still.
Advantage aluminum.
4) Corrosion - Copper coils are made with aluminum fins mounted in galvanized steel frames, which is a recipe for galvanic corrosion over time. Aluminum metal reacts with the oxygen in the air to produce a thin, but tough oxide coating that protects the underlying metal from corrosion. If the aluminum metal is scratched or scuffed, the protective oxide layer reforms almost immediately. Aluminum coils are all aluminum, and being homogeneous, do not suffer from galvanic corrosion the way three-metal copper coils do. But the protection afforded by the oxide layer is not absolute; Aluminum is very sensitive to chloride corrosion from animal urine, like dogs sent marking or male cats spraying, sea salt spray, etc. While chloride will destroy both copper and aluminum coils, chloride attacks aluminum coils much more aggressively.
Advantage aluminum, except by the ocean.
4a) Chinese Drywall, More Corrosion - References are made in this thread to Formicary Corrosion a.k.a. Ant Nest Corrosion. Formic acid is an organic acid produced by ants to signal each other, but many organic acids can cause this deep pitting corrosion in copper. Some thread entries blame ants, but not one entry has named the actual cause behind most of the recent spate of damage to U.S. HVAC equipment - hydrogen sulfide off-gassed by impurities in imported Chinese drywall. Because of its protective oxide layer, aluminum does not react with hydrogen sulfide the way copper does.
Advantage aluminum.
5) Field serviceability - Repairing aluminum refrigeration tubing is much more challenging than repairing copper tubing. Copper can be heated all the way to cherry red glow without damage. It can be both brazed (temperature over 800 degrees F) or soldered (temperature below 800 degrees F). Aluminum heats up and as the temperature rises, without warning, melts onto a puddle. When the temperature is tightly controlled, because of that thin, but tenacious layer of aluminum oxide mentioned earlier, solder or braze filler metal alloys have difficulty bonding to aluminum. Recently developed exotic and expensive fluxes are making field repair easier, but some technicians still refuse to even attempt a field repair on an aluminum coil, insisting on replacing it instead.
Advantage copper.
Conclusion.
I think it is fair to say the future is all aluminum coils, both because of the cost savings in the less expensive metal, and continuing improvements in aluminum joining and repair techniques.
Aluminum or copper, to stretch the life of your investment in A/C equipment, consider this: if you would like your new A/C or heat pump to last as long as possible, for a few hundred dollars extra, ask your contractor if the brand and model they are offering is available with a 'Coastal' or 'Sea-Side' option. Units with this option are made with their coils coated with a very thin, but
completely corrosion resistant polymer; they are assembled using stainless steel screws and bolts, and are painted with an extra durable paint. Coastal option units are intended for use near the bodies of salt water, but are equally good at resisting corrosion caused by a range urban threats from acid raid to cat pee and many other chemical insults I can't name.
I hope all the above has proven useful at shedding light on the advantages and disadvantages of aluminum and copper coils.
> I have spoken with several HVAC contractors regarding replacement of my
> old Lennox central air conditioning system. All of them are Lennox
> dealers except one who also carries Trane products.
>
> The dealer who also carries Trane was trying to switch me from my
> original Lennox preference, stating that the Trane coils, which are 100%
> aluminum, rather than the Lennox coils, which use aluminum fins and
> copper tubing, provide a better, longer lasting design.
>
> He felt that Trane was superior in other ways also, since they used
> "composite plastics" in the outdoor condensing unit case rather than
> steel to ensure that no corrosion or rusting would occur.
>
> The basic claim was that Trane, using aluminum for all of the
> refrigeration loop, had a longer life expectancy that Lennox, given the
> newer Puron refrigerant.
>
> Does anyone have any experience with Trane, and is there any science to
> support this type of claim or any other prior experience to say that
> Trane is somehow better?
>
> Thanks for any advice.
I've worked in the HVAC trade and would like to share some up-to-date facts about copper versus aluminum condensing units and evaporator coils.
First, let me separate all A/C coils with fins from coils with all-aluminum spines known as 'Spine-Fin' made by Trane and sold by Trane and related companies, used in outdoor condensing units and heat pumps. I recommend against products that use the spine-fin design. This design is notorious for plugging up; loading up with cottonwood fluff, spider silk, leaf litter, insect debris etc. Regular visits from the service man are a necessity to burn the debris out of the coil with a torch since washing with the powerful spray cleaners normally employed in coil cleaning is ineffective on spine-fin coils.
Copper tube coils with aluminum fins versus all-aluminum tube coils with aluminum fins...
1a) Money - Copper prices went out of control high when the Chinese economy boomed prior to the Great Recession of 2008. It only reasonable for U.S. manufacturers to anticipate future copper metal price spikes in considering potential future cost and potential copper shortages. Aluminum metal is plentiful, but uses a great deal of electrical energy to refine the ore.
Advantage aluminum.
1b) Aside from the cost of copper metal, aluminum coils are more difficult and costly to manufacture. This is in large measure because it is difficult to join aluminum tubes because of the thin layer of oxide that forms on aluminum. Copper is much easier to join and repair. New aluminum soldering alloys were developed over recent years that have improved the process of producing all-aluminum coils, although it is still remains difficult to repair an aluminum coil in the field.
Advantage copper.
2) Higher refrigerant pressures - New EPA mandated chlorine-free refrigerants replaced long time standard HCFC refrigerant R-22 in 2012. An example of a new refrigerant is Carrier's Puron (which is known in the trade as R-410a) which operates at higher pressure than R-22, so the tubing used in making new condensing and evaporator coils must have thicker walls to resist the higher pressure.
The new refrigerants heat-carrying ability, known as its enthalpy, fluid ounce for ounce, is less than that of R-22. Combined with other physical properties, greater mass flow is needed to move the same quantity of heat, thus larger coils are needed. Larger coils mean more metal used. A-coils in evaporators (at the furnace end) become N-coils to absorb the heat from the air stream, and condensers (found outdoors to move the heat into the air) must be much larger to handle double the flow of refrigerant. EPA also mandated higher Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratios (SEER) for air conditioners and heat pumps, requiring these coils to be made larger still.
Advantage aluminum.
4) Corrosion - Copper coils are made with aluminum fins mounted in galvanized steel frames, which is a recipe for galvanic corrosion over time. Aluminum metal reacts with the oxygen in the air to produce a thin, but tough oxide coating that protects the underlying metal from corrosion. If the aluminum metal is scratched or scuffed, the protective oxide layer reforms almost immediately. Aluminum coils are all aluminum, and being homogeneous, do not suffer from galvanic corrosion the way three-metal copper coils do. But the protection afforded by the oxide layer is not absolute; Aluminum is very sensitive to chloride corrosion from animal urine, like dogs sent marking or male cats spraying, sea salt spray, etc. While chloride will destroy both copper and aluminum coils, chloride attacks aluminum coils much more aggressively.
Advantage aluminum, except by the ocean.
4a) Chinese Drywall, More Corrosion - References are made in this thread to Formicary Corrosion a.k.a. Ant Nest Corrosion. Formic acid is an organic acid produced by ants to signal each other, but many organic acids can cause this deep pitting corrosion in copper. Some thread entries blame ants, but not one entry has named the actual cause behind most of the recent spate of damage to U.S. HVAC equipment - hydrogen sulfide off-gassed by impurities in imported Chinese drywall. Because of its protective oxide layer, aluminum does not react with hydrogen sulfide the way copper does.
Advantage aluminum.
5) Field serviceability - Repairing aluminum refrigeration tubing is much more challenging than repairing copper tubing. Copper can be heated all the way to cherry red glow without damage. It can be both brazed (temperature over 800 degrees F) or soldered (temperature below 800 degrees F). Aluminum heats up and as the temperature rises, without warning, melts onto a puddle. When the temperature is tightly controlled, because of that thin, but tenacious layer of aluminum oxide mentioned earlier, solder or braze filler metal alloys have difficulty bonding to aluminum. Recently developed exotic and expensive fluxes are making field repair easier, but some technicians still refuse to even attempt a field repair on an aluminum coil, insisting on replacing it instead.
Advantage copper.
Conclusion.
I think it is fair to say the future is all aluminum coils, both because of the cost savings in the less expensive metal, and continuing improvements in aluminum joining and repair techniques.
Aluminum or copper, to stretch the life of your investment in A/C equipment, consider this: if you would like your new A/C or heat pump to last as long as possible, for a few hundred dollars extra, ask your contractor if the brand and model they are offering is available with a 'Coastal' or 'Sea-Side' option. Units with this option are made with their coils coated with a very thin, but
completely corrosion resistant polymer; they are assembled using stainless steel screws and bolts, and are painted with an extra durable paint. Coastal option units are intended for use near the bodies of salt water, but are equally good at resisting corrosion caused by a range urban threats from acid raid to cat pee and many other chemical insults I can't name.
I hope all the above has proven useful at shedding light on the advantages and disadvantages of aluminum and copper coils.
BobsYourUncle
Jun 21, 2017, 12:14:06 PM6/21/17
to
replying to Smarty, BobsYourUncle wrote:
> Consumer Reports seems to be silent on the whole matter of central A/C
reliability.
This may have been true in 2012 but no longer is:
http://web.consumerreports.org/airconditioners/v1/index.html?EXTKEY=SG72A00&gclid=CIvlkN-oz9QCFQEpaQodqHQFSQ
--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/all-aluminum-versus-copper-aluminum-coils-for-air-conditione-690615-.htm
> Consumer Reports seems to be silent on the whole matter of central A/C
reliability.
This may have been true in 2012 but no longer is:
http://web.consumerreports.org/airconditioners/v1/index.html?EXTKEY=SG72A00&gclid=CIvlkN-oz9QCFQEpaQodqHQFSQ
--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/all-aluminum-versus-copper-aluminum-coils-for-air-conditione-690615-.htm
BobsYourUncle
Jun 21, 2017, 1:44:05 PM6/21/17
to
replying to makolber, BobsYourUncle wrote:
This will dry your evaporator coils all right, but it will also increase the
humidity inside the house by as much as 10% as well as increase your energy
usage. The evaporator coils that produce water condensation are inside the
house, and are designed to both withstand and shed water, so water on them is
not an issue. What we're talking about here are the condenser coils in the
*outside* unit, which despite the name do not form water condensation, they
condense the refrigerant in the lines back to a liquid which then makes the
coils hot. The only water on the condenser coils comes in externally;
rain/snow, sprinklers, etc.
So from a water perspective, the inside evaporator condenses water and the
outside condenser evaporates it.
This will dry your evaporator coils all right, but it will also increase the
humidity inside the house by as much as 10% as well as increase your energy
usage. The evaporator coils that produce water condensation are inside the
house, and are designed to both withstand and shed water, so water on them is
not an issue. What we're talking about here are the condenser coils in the
*outside* unit, which despite the name do not form water condensation, they
condense the refrigerant in the lines back to a liquid which then makes the
coils hot. The only water on the condenser coils comes in externally;
rain/snow, sprinklers, etc.
So from a water perspective, the inside evaporator condenses water and the
outside condenser evaporates it.
BobsYourUncle
Jun 21, 2017, 2:44:06 PM6/21/17
to
replying to mangino, BobsYourUncle wrote:
> He said that Carrier knows that there are issues with the coils rusting out
prematurely. Carrier use to have all aluminum coils and aluminum never rusts.
Carrier and other manufacturers realized if they switched to copper coils their
customers would have to replace their coils approximately every 6 to 8 years (10
years if you were lucky)
Well, it's too late for mangino at this point, but his a/c guy was at least
> He said that Carrier knows that there are issues with the coils rusting out
prematurely. Carrier use to have all aluminum coils and aluminum never rusts.
Carrier and other manufacturers realized if they switched to copper coils their
customers would have to replace their coils approximately every 6 to 8 years (10
years if you were lucky)
woefully uninformed on the topic, and nearly everything he said about copper
applies to aluminum as well; in some cases more so. For one, aluminum most
definitely oxidizes as does copper. Your aluminum coils have to be mated at
some point to the copper supply lines, and this is where most of the failures
occur due to the galvanic action of the two disparate metals. Also, the only
good all-aluminum coils were made by GE until they got out of the HVAC
business. The rest are much thinner and consequently cheaper than the copper.
But wait, if you get a leak in that aluminum line (a good possibility, since
aluminum is thinner, weaker, harder to clean, and easier to damage, not to
mention having worse heat transfer characteristics) good luck finding anyone
who can repair it. "Be better to just replace it" is what an honest totally
trustworthy A/C guy would tell you in that situation. Sounds like planned
obsolescence to me...
BobsYourUncle
Jun 21, 2017, 2:44:07 PM6/21/17
to
replying to bob haller, BobsYourUncle wrote:
Also Amana which is basically a fancy Goodman, much as Lexus is to Toyota;
same manufacturer, just more bells and whistles (but without the extreme price
delta that the autos have).
Also Amana which is basically a fancy Goodman, much as Lexus is to Toyota;
same manufacturer, just more bells and whistles (but without the extreme price
delta that the autos have).
BobsYourUncle
Jun 21, 2017, 2:44:08 PM6/21/17
to
replying to mangino, BobsYourUncle wrote:
> These are details you won't get from your air conditioning company.
I love that your post makes this claim, then to support it you post a link to
document from Carrier, the very company that your air conditioning guy whom
you totally trust said was going back to copper so it would fail faster.
BobsYourUncle
Jun 21, 2017, 2:44:10 PM6/21/17
to
replying to DCB, BobsYourUncle wrote:
Neither metal technically rusts; only iron does, but they all oxidize. We just
call ferrous oxide "rust."
Neither metal technically rusts; only iron does, but they all oxidize. We just
call ferrous oxide "rust."
Ralph Mowery
Jun 21, 2017, 2:56:18 PM6/21/17
to
In article <Cfy2B.21263$No5....@fx43.am4>,
caedfaa9ed1216d60ef...@example.com says...
ice will form on the outside unit. That does not come from direct rain
or snow.
caedfaa9ed1216d60ef...@example.com says...
>
> replying to makolber, BobsYourUncle wrote:
> This will dry your evaporator coils all right, but it will also increase the
> humidity inside the house by as much as 10% as well as increase your energy
> usage. The evaporator coils that produce water condensation are inside the
> house, and are designed to both withstand and shed water, so water on them is
> not an issue. What we're talking about here are the condenser coils in the
> *outside* unit, which despite the name do not form water condensation, they
> condense the refrigerant in the lines back to a liquid which then makes the
> coils hot. The only water on the condenser coils comes in externally;
> rain/snow, sprinklers, etc.
>
> So from a water perspective, the inside evaporator condenses water and the
> outside condenser evaporates it.
>
But I have a heat pump and in the heat mode, it reverses and water and
> replying to makolber, BobsYourUncle wrote:
> This will dry your evaporator coils all right, but it will also increase the
> humidity inside the house by as much as 10% as well as increase your energy
> usage. The evaporator coils that produce water condensation are inside the
> house, and are designed to both withstand and shed water, so water on them is
> not an issue. What we're talking about here are the condenser coils in the
> *outside* unit, which despite the name do not form water condensation, they
> condense the refrigerant in the lines back to a liquid which then makes the
> coils hot. The only water on the condenser coils comes in externally;
> rain/snow, sprinklers, etc.
>
> So from a water perspective, the inside evaporator condenses water and the
> outside condenser evaporates it.
>
ice will form on the outside unit. That does not come from direct rain
or snow.
anitad...@gmail.com
Oct 2, 2017, 4:25:27 PM10/2/17
to
I read this article on www.copperindia.org/thinkcopper
.i found it very interesting on they explained the difference between copper and aluminum ac. I feel this website should solve yr problem
.i found it very interesting on they explained the difference between copper and aluminum ac. I feel this website should solve yr problem
jpcallan
Sep 6, 2021, 8:45:08 PM9/6/21
to
Condensing moisture out of the air is very common with heat pumps, especially when the outdoor temp gets low and the relative humidity is high. The heat pump is harvesting heat from the outdoor air, cooling it. When that air crosses its dew point (100% humidity) condensate will form. When the outdoor temp gets low to where the exhausted air is below 32 degrees F, frost will start to form on the heat pump's coils and fins. Heat Pump controllers have sensors to detect low ambient temperatures and cause a defrost cycle. In defrost the heat pump briefly becomes an air conditioner (but without running the fan on top), heating up the outdoor coil with heat taken from inside the house to thaw the ice and frost. After the ice is melted away, heat harvesting resumes. Frequent frost-overs is one of the main reasons heat pumps don't work well for home heating in the northern USA.
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For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/all-aluminum-versus-copper-aluminum-coils-for-air-conditione-690615-.htm
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For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/all-aluminum-versus-copper-aluminum-coils-for-air-conditione-690615-.htm
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