LED bulbs can't be used with a timer...typo?

[DerbyDad03]

The description tab for this bulb says it can't be used with a timer.

http://t.homedepot.com/p/TCP-40W-Equivalent-Soft-White-2700K-G25-LED-Light-Bulb-3-Pack-RLG255W27KND3/204499398

Is that true or is it a typo?

[Retired]

That's for a 3-pack. Interesting that the info for the single pack of
the same bulb says nothing about timers, and is also dimmable, where
the 3-pack says No to dimmable. Odd........

Single pack =
http://www.homedepot.com/p/TCP-40W-Equivalent-Soft-White-2700K-G25-Dimmable-LED-Light-Bulb-RLG255W27K/204651031#product_description

A mechanical timer should be no problem for any bulb. An electrical
timer might not fully turn off due to the small current draw thru the
bulb, that would not bother an incandescent bulb.

[nestork]

DerbyDad03;3220727 Wrote:
> The description tab for this bulb says it can't be used with a timer.
>

> 'TCP, 40W Equivalent Soft White (2700K) G25 LED Light Bulb (3-Pack),
> RLG255W27KND3 at The Home Depot - Tablet' (http://tinyurl.com/p9kj8cv)

>
> Is that true or is it a typo?

I bought a digital timer so that I could keep a spare car battery
charged and ready to go by having a trickle charger charge it for 10
minutes every day.

And, I was surprised to find that when the timer was supposed to be off,
there was still a small voltage across the slots in the receptacle of
the timer. So, even when it was in the off mode, it was still feeding a
bit of current through whatever was plugged into it.

That small current is the only reason I could see why a switch operated
by a finger works fine, but a switch operated by a timer doesn't.

Heck, I'd buy them and find out.




--
nestork

[trader_4]

That is probably the issue.

[DerbyDad03]

But what is the actual issue?

Would the small amount of leakage actually light the bulb? Would the
constant low current damage the bulb?

In other words, why do we care that the timer switch is never 100% off?

[trader_4]

My guess would be that the small current through an electronic timer
could light the bulb.
I've seen it happen with CFLs and similar devices, like X10, that rely on
a small current through the lights.

[BenignBodger]

It would depend on the type of timer. If it used mechanical contacts (a
relay) to do the switching the load would have no way of knowing and would
work fine. On the other hand, if the timer used electronic switching then
the odd load presented by the LED electronics might cause a problem.

[DerbyDad03]

Please define "problem".

[BenignBodger]

Problem as in the LED might stay on all the time either at full or partial
brightness or might not switch on at all or might switch on and not switch
off. At the worst (very unlikely and requiring some sloppy design work) it
might be possible that the timer or LED electronics might be damaged.

[bob haller]

I REALLY dont like electronic timers, mine lost its settings every time the power went out, it became so annoying I bought a mechanical timer and tossed the electronic one in the trash.

at the time a incandescent burn out, I happened to see it go white hot and die damaed the timer, and honestly I was happy to deposit it in the trash.

It was hard to program too..

[trader_4]

On Saturday, April 12, 2014 10:28:22 AM UTC-4, bob haller wrote:
> I REALLY dont like electronic timers, mine lost its settings every time the power went out, it became so annoying I bought a mechanical timer and tossed the electronic one in the trash.
>
>
>
> at the time a incandescent burn out, I happened to see it go white hot and die damaed the timer, and honestly I was happy to deposit it in the trash.
>
>

I've seen that happen too. A bulb fails with a notable flash/pop
and destroyed the electronic timer.

>
> It was hard to program too..

That can be a problem with many of them too. On the plus side, some
of them have features you can't find in a mechanical, like they can
do a somewhat random on/off cycle to mimic someone being home in
the evening. Also not sure of the form factor. The only thing I've
put in to replace a standard switch was the electronic type. Not
sure if they have mechanical in that form factor. The mechanical
I've seen have been plug-in.

[Robert Green]

"DerbyDad03" <Derby...@notateznet.net> wrote in message

> Please define "problem".

The switch, if electronic, "steals" power to operate via a trickle current
that passes through the bulb. But that only works for incandescents. The
trickle current that tries to pass through an LED or CFL bulb instead
charges up the bulb's switching power supply capacitors and flashes the bulb
when enough current in accumulated. The process repeats itself
ad-infinitum.

Surely you've seen this with a CFL plugged into an older X-10 module. The
same process is occurring. Trickle current charges lamp PS caps enough to
flash the bulb and then repeats. The lack of trickle current reaching the
switch in those cases usually means the timer electronics won't operate
properly. But not always. Depends on the bulb's design.

In the X-10 world this process can be circumvented by putting a small,
incandescent night light (or other bulb) in parallel with the LED/CFL to
allow the trickle current to pass through *something* to reach the switch.
I have a three bulb overhead fixture that runs through a "trickle powered"
X-10 wall switch. It behaved very erratically until I took a small night
light bulb and placed it in one of the three sockets in the lamp. Not as
efficient as three CFL's but a lot easier than running a neutral to the
switch leg, the other solution to the problem.

--
Bobby G.

[DerbyDad03]

I have an X-10 controlled 4' florescent shop light. Before I added the
"Christmas Candle" to the circuit, the light would turn on when the
motion sensor told it to, but it would immediately turn off.

It was ironic that with all the inconsistencies that X-10 will display,
the on-off of the shop light was 100% consistent. The Christmas Candle
solved that issue nicely.

[BenignBodger]

I have some 'electronic' timers around, Stanley IIRC, and they are pretty
good. First, they actually run off of small coin cells so power failures
mean nothing. Second, they use relay switching so there are no troublesome
TRIACs to blow up. The programming is not as easy as I'd like but since
they don't lose their program even during battery changes it isn't all that
bad. For things like the auxiliary heaters in the bathrooms I've installed
old-timey wind-the-dial 1-hour timers -- simple and effective.

[DerbyDad03]

I had an "old-timey wind-the-dial 1-hour timer" for the vent fan in the
wife's bathroom. I recently upgraded to fan/heater unit so I needed an
additional switch for the heater which meant another switch box, etc.

I decided to "go big or go home".

New dimmer for the lights, humidity sensor/timer for the fan, electronic
timer for the heater. This is what I ended up with:

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/photobucket-8454-1396364813661_zps33dbd9eb.jpg

The wife is quite happy and therefore, so am I.

[trader_4]

On Saturday, April 12, 2014 11:17:15 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
> "DerbyDad03" <Derby...@notateznet.net> wrote in message
>
>
>
> > Please define "problem".
>
>
>
> The switch, if electronic, "steals" power to operate via a trickle current
>
> that passes through the bulb.

I agree, but that problem only exists if the electronic timer/switch
doesn't have a neutral connection. Some do, some don't.

[trader_4]

Nice job!

[DerbyDad03]

trader_4 <tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
> On Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:29:38 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> On 4/12/2014 6:35 PM, BenignBodger wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/12/2014 10:28 AM, bob haller wrote:
>>
>>>> I REALLY dont like electronic timers, mine lost its settings every
>>>> time the power went out, it became so annoying I bought a mechanical
>>>> timer and tossed the electronic one in the trash.
>>
>>>> at the time a incandescent burn out, I happened to see it go white hot
>>>> and die damaed the timer, and honestly I was happy to deposit it in
>>>> the trash.
>>
>>>> It was hard to program too.
>>

>>> I have some 'electronic' timers around, Stanley IIRC, and they are
>>> pretty good. First, they actually run off of small coin cells so power
>>> failures mean nothing. Second, they use relay switching so there are no
>>> troublesome TRIACs to blow up. The programming is not as easy as I'd
>>> like but since they don't lose their program even during battery changes
>>> it isn't all that bad. For things like the auxiliary heaters in the
>>> bathrooms I've installed old-timey wind-the-dial 1-hour timers -- simple
>>> and effective.
>>
>>
>>
>> I had an "old-timey wind-the-dial 1-hour timer" for the vent fan in the
>> wife's bathroom. I recently upgraded to fan/heater unit so I needed an
>> additional switch for the heater which meant another switch box, etc.
>>
>> I decided to "go big or go home".
>>
>> New dimmer for the lights, humidity sensor/timer for the fan, electronic
>> timer for the heater. This is what I ended up with:
>>
>> http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/photobucket-8454-1396364813661_zps33dbd9eb.jpg
>>
>> The wife is quite happy and therefore, so am I.
>
> Nice job!

Thanks.

The wife really likes the humidity sensor for the vent. She doesn't even
turn it on...just lets it do it's thing.

She said the Panasonic fan does a much better (and quieter) job than the
old Nutone.

[trader_4]

Don't get me started on that.... Around here builders are putting the
cheapest, noiseist piece of crap fans in $1mil houses. It's unbelievable.
The sound is horrendous.
I don't have a problem with a builder putting in cheap light fixtures,
because many times people are going to want to change them and find their
own preferred lights. But lights can usually be changed pretty easily.
A bathroom fan requires tearing apart the ceiling. And just going from
$30 to $50, you get a big difference in reducing noise level. At $75
they are really quiet and nicer too. But builders here seem incapable
of doing simple things like that which would cost them very little and
then using those things as marketing points to help sell the house,
get a better price, etc. I'd rather be a builder who put $5K more into
a house like that, asking $10K more, and pointing out all those difference
to the buyer. I think you'd easily get the additional $10K and probably
move the house quicker too.

[gregz]

I have a humidity sensor on mine. Problem is, there are a day or two per
year when humidity in house gets 60% or more. Fan stays on.

I didn't have a problem with timer or manual, but other users forget to
turn things on.

My fan is in the attic. All I hear is shhhhhhh. I have to listen closely.

Greg

[gregz]

Just measured sound with my HF DVM. About 50 dB 3 feet away. Supposed to be
100 cfm.

Greg

[BenignBodger]

Yeah, I just installed a 110cfm Panasonic with motion and humidity sensor
in the bathroom I'm doing. I still haven't finished the shower so I'm not
sure how I'll set the humidity sensor but the motion sensor seems sensitive
enough to switch on for a mouse. While the new fan is not actually silent
it is sure miles ahead of the old Nutone I put in ten years ago. Right now
the only regret is that I didn't search out one with a built-in night light
(pretty sure that they make one) but that is a minor thing since I found a
GFCI with a built-in LED nightlight last week.

[Tekkie®]

DerbyDad03 posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

To clear this up, are you saying your wife is hot or stinky?

--
Tekkie

[ni...@lipfix.com]

I have a case where an elecctronic timer with a neutral which switches a relay as well as an X10 relay switch with neutral isn't working to switch a 150 watt LED (not 150 W "equivalent" but an actual 1.25 amp 150 watt load). They will switch the relay and turn the light ON but it drops out shortly aftwerwards.

The timer worked fine with a 100 watt LED but refused when I replaced it with the 150Watt flood. Timer is rated for 1800 watts and even 8 amps reactive load.

The only explanation seems to be the distorted waveform caused by the nonlinear switching supplies (3 in the 150 watt light but 2 in the 100 watt) causes the timer circuitry to drop the relay. I am trying to find out the THD and/or power fafctor of this light and also hope to look at the current and voltage waveforms on a scope soon. It is a VERY odd problem!

[Art Todesco]

Some fixtures and ceiling fans have a nasty device that does not allow
lamps over a certain wattage. Two of my ceiling fans have such a device
and will not play nicely with CFLs, etc. even though they a well under
the wattage. When replacing the 3 incandescent lights with CFLs about 7
years ago, I noticed that the lights would come on and would shut off at
some random time later. I eventually removed the device which was
cleverly hidden in the fans's motor assembly. Recently, an engineer
friend "fixed" some fixture's in a buddy's store which were behaving in
a similar way.

[B...@weiser.com]

On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 08:41:07 -0400, Art Todesco <acto...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>>
>Some fixtures and ceiling fans have a nasty device that does not allow
>lamps over a certain wattage. Two of my ceiling fans have such a device
>and will not play nicely with CFLs, etc. even though they a well under
>the wattage. When replacing the 3 incandescent lights with CFLs about 7
>years ago, I noticed that the lights would come on and would shut off at
>some random time later. I eventually removed the device which was
>cleverly hidden in the fans's motor assembly. Recently, an engineer
>friend "fixed" some fixture's in a buddy's store which were behaving in
>a similar way.

To the OP. If the relayt in this device is connected directly to the
power line. there is no reason it should not maintain power to the
lights. In that case, it would appear the relay itself of circuit that
triggers it, is defective.

On the other hand, if the power going to the light is going thru
electronics, then there could be a number of issues.

If this was my problem, I'd just buy another timer. They are not that
costly.

--
As far as this "hidden device", I cant imagine what that would be. Small
motors like in ceiling fans usually have a cutoff device, which will cut
the power to the motor in case the motor gets too hot, or draws too much
current. But once those cut the power, they normally need ot be
replaced, or the whole motor is replaced.

If there is some other "thing" hidden inside the motor, I'd sure like to
know what it is....

[k...@notreal.com]

On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 10:58:45 -0700 (PDT), ni...@lipfix.com wrote:

>I have a case where an elecctronic timer with a neutral which switches a relay as well as an X10 relay switch with neutral isn't working to switch a 150 watt LED (not 150 W "equivalent" but an actual 1.25 amp 150 watt load). They will switch the relay and turn the light ON but it drops out shortly aftwerwards.

The workaround for X10 issues like this is to add a 7W incandescent
nightlight to the circuit.