Run gas furnace without electricity?
David Maxson
too. Is this inevitable the next time around or is there a way to safely,
simply and temporarily disconnect the thermostat so the gas furnace will run
on it own, without electricity?
--------------------------
David Maxson
488 Connecticut Avenue
Spartanburg, SC 29302
Lawrence Wasserman
will you run the blower? There are gas heaters that do not use blowers
for air circulation, but they are for space heating, not central heat.
If you have hot water & radiators or baseboards then you need
electricity to power the circulator pump. I suppose if you have an
older steam system (Old enough not to depend on a lot of electronic
controls like the modern high efficiency systems generally do) it
could be adapted to run without electricity.
--
Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
lwas...@charm.net
John Gilmer
"Igor2314" <ignora...@NOSPAM.2314.invalid> wrote in message
news:slrnavuhcr.88o...@nospam.invalid...
> A furnace needs a gas blower motor to operate in order to circulate air.
>
> It cannot run without electricity.
Actually some can!
The ones that can uses a "milivolt" thermostat and a standing pilot flame.
The power to operate the gas valve comes from the thermopile which has one
end heated by the pilot light. (This same basic system is used for ALL
ventless gas heaters and fireplace inserts).
When there is power, the heat demand sets off the fire and the fan control
will turn on the fan when the furnace gets hot. If there is no power, the
fan control will shut off the gas when the furnace gets too hot. When the
furnace cools, the fan control will let the gas flow again.
Since the only way of getting heat of the the furnace and into the house is
via heat driven convection, the effective capacity of the furnace is greated
reduced but you still have SOME heat.
JimL
My natural gas furnace won't work, but my fireplace will, and there
is a place near my fireplace to connect a dearborn heater that will
work without electricity.
Joseph Meehan
designed to work that way, even if it might function to a very small degree.
--
Joseph E. Meehan
26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
"John Gilmer" <gil...@crosslink.net> wrote in message
news:3dff5609$0$29...@dingus.crosslink.net...
Joseph Meehan
basement ready to hook up and turn on if I need it. That will provide
enough heat to prevent damage in all but the worse conditions. I don't have
it hooked up because I don't trust it that much and I don't want someone
just turning it on and leaving it.
--
Joseph E. Meehan
26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
"David Maxson" <etve...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:cdHL9.5076$7b3...@news.bellsouth.net...
j...@noname.com
degrees.... had to light the cook top of the stove and the oven and had
lots of pots of water on it to put out steam... house is very well
insulated..... and it was not hot enough.. the only thing i can think of
is to get a gas heater (one of those box typed) and hook it up and take
it down later when you get electricity
HvacTech2
Hi John, hope you are having a nice day
On 17-Dec-02 At About 01:01:00, John Gilmer wrote to All
Subject: Re: Run gas furnace without electricity?
JG> From: "John Gilmer" <gil...@crosslink.net>
JG> "Igor2314" <ignora...@NOSPAM.2314.invalid> wrote in message
JG> news:slrnavuhcr.88o...@nospam.invalid...
>> A furnace needs a gas blower motor to operate in order to circulate
>> air.
>> It cannot run without electricity.
JG> Actually some can!
JG> The ones that can uses a "milivolt" thermostat and a standing pilot
JG> flame. The power to operate the gas valve comes from the thermopile
JG> which has one end heated by the pilot light. (This same basic
JG> system is used for ALL ventless gas heaters and fireplace inserts).
JG> When there is power, the heat demand sets off the fire and the fan
JG> control will turn on the fan when the furnace gets hot. If there is
JG> no power, the fan control will shut off the gas when the furnace
JG> gets too hot. When the furnace cools, the fan control will let the
JG> gas flow again.
JG> Since the only way of getting heat of the the furnace and into the
JG> house is via heat driven convection, the effective capacity of the
JG> furnace is greated reduced but you still have SOME heat.
This is definitely not something anyone should do as you are operating on the
limit. what if it fails? there goes your house and maybe your life. it also
overheats the heat exchanger and will damage it.
-=> HvacTech2 <=-
.. <tap> <tap> <tap> Is this thing on?
___ TagDude 0.92á+[DM]
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
spam protection measure, Please remove the 33 to send e-mail
j...@noname.com
without electricity(you need it to move the heat from the heater to heat
the house and you need the electricity to release the gas into the
heater so it will heat up.... if you dont have the fan working you gonna
get a heater thats too hot in the attic as it has nothing to move the
heat out.. it will then cut off as this is what happens so the heater
does not burn up.... and it should continue to run when the gas cuts off
and keep blowing a certain amount of heat out... i would not want to do
this, but then i am not in your position without heat.....
Donald Kinney
> as you are operating on the limit. what if it fails?
> there goes your house and maybe your life. it also
> overheats the heat exchanger and will damage it.
> -=> HvacTech2 <=-
about furnances and boilers.
How much current does a boiler use? Say one with electronic start and a
circulator pump.
What about a force air furnance?
Now I know that every system is different and people would have to look at
their heating system to be sure of the actual numbers.
Anyhow the reason I am asking is what about those battery backup units that
you can buy for computers. Yes the standard buy one off the shelf would not
be big enough for any length of time, but maybe someone could modify one so
that they could use a car battery and just the converter in order to power
the heating system. They could charge the battery by jumping/hooking it up
to the car and charge it that way.
Does something like this sound reasonable?
Donald
Speedy Jim
<SNIP>
> How much current does a boiler use? Say one with electronic start and a
> circulator pump.
> What about a force air furnance?
> Now I know that every system is different and people would have to look at
> their heating system to be sure of the actual numbers.
> Anyhow the reason I am asking is what about those battery backup units that
> you can buy for computers. Yes the standard buy one off the shelf would not
> be big enough for any length of time, but maybe someone could modify one so
> that they could use a car battery and just the converter in order to power
> the heating system. They could charge the battery by jumping/hooking it up
> to the car and charge it that way.
> Does something like this sound reasonable?
>
> Donald
If the furnace/boiler has a motor, you need a pretty good sized
inverter. As you said, you'd have to check the motor nameplate.
One gotcha to watch out for is that many of the computer backup
supplies are not self-starting, like an inverter is.
Jim
Eric Lee Green
>> This is definitely not something anyone should do
>> as you are operating on the limit. what if it fails?
>> there goes your house and maybe your life. it also
>> overheats the heat exchanger and will damage it.
>> -=> HvacTech2 <=-
> Okay, someone who signs with something that looks like he knows something
> about furnances and boilers.
> How much current does a boiler use? Say one with electronic start and a
> circulator pump.
> What about a force air furnance?
Depending on the size of the furnace and ductwork, a forced air furnace
has anywhere from a 1/2 horsepower to 1 horsepower motor. I.e., pulls
anywhere from 750 watts to 1500 watts of power. The bigger problem is that
these may be run at 220v in a forced air furnace that also supports
air conditioning, in order to avoid having an unbalanced circuit (i.e.,
one leg of a 220v circuit that is carrying more current due to pushing
a 110v blower motor as well as the A/C compressor). I am unaware of any
inverters which support 220v.
Really, you'd be better off looking for an auxiliary generator with
sufficient capacity to power the furnace in this situation, or add
some sort of supplemental heat source like a ventless gas heater. When
I was a kid the ventless gas heaters were all we had to heat our homes
(in north Louisiana), other than the people who had wood stoves, and
while they were dangerous and threw tons of humidity into the air to
condense on the windows and inside the walls, they did at least keep
us above freezing indoors.
--
Eric Lee Green EMAIL: mailto:er...@badtux.org
http://badtux.org/home/eric/resume.html
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Wade
Tim Fischer
news:slrnavvdg2...@badtux.org...
The bigger problem is that
> these may be run at 220v in a forced air furnace that also supports
> air conditioning, in order to avoid having an unbalanced circuit (i.e.,
> one leg of a 220v circuit that is carrying more current due to pushing
> a 110v blower motor as well as the A/C compressor). I am unaware of any
> inverters which support 220v.
Huh? Every setup I've seen gets 120V power for the blower from one circuit,
and 220V from another for the compressor (the 220V goes directly outside NOT
to the furnace).
-Tim
Dean Hoffman
"David Maxson" <etve...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
There were furnaces made at one time that didn't require an outside power
source to work. The floor furnace I had used the electricity from a
thermocouple to operate a thermostat and solenoid of some sort to make the
furnace cycle. I think there was a wall furnace that worked the same way. I
have no idea how expensive they were or if they're still available.
Dean
klmok
<etve...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>When we lost power from the recent ice storm, our gas furnace went out,
>too. Is this inevitable the next time around or is there a way to safely,
>simply and temporarily disconnect the thermostat so the gas furnace will run
>on it own, without electricity?
>
>
I have half a solution.
The gas valve and temperature sensor interlocks operate from a 28 to
30 volt ac transformer. I DON'T know how to supply this 30Vac. Any
ideas? Will 24Vdc (2 x 12 volt car batteries) work? Since the
thermal sensors do not have polarity and the valve is a solenoid (?)
direct current should be ok. Someone else will have a better idea.
If the above solution works the other half of the solution will be to
open up the front panels of the furnace to let as much air into the
furnace as possible. That way once the burners fire up the heat
exchanger will stay cool slightly longer before the sensor senses
overheating and cuts off the gas supply. If you have a stationary
exercise bike, couple that to the furnace fan and pedal like mad to
run the fan when the burners light up. That blows heated air to the
rest of the house and hopefully it gets warm enough to keep the potted
plants alive, your plumbing from freezing up and perhaps comfortable
enough to get to bed.
If you have a gas fireplace maybe rigging up that 30Vac or 24Vdc to
work the gas valve should give you heat. Gas fireplaces don't have a
fan. I don't know whether gas fireplaces have overheat safety
interlocks.
HeatMan
> Okay, someone who signs with something that looks like he knows something
> about furnances and boilers.
> How much current does a boiler use? Say one with electronic start and a
> circulator pump.
> What about a force air furnance?
> Now I know that every system is different and people would have to look at
> their heating system to be sure of the actual numbers.
> Anyhow the reason I am asking is what about those battery backup units
that
> you can buy for computers. Yes the standard buy one off the shelf would
not
> be big enough for any length of time, but maybe someone could modify one
so
> that they could use a car battery and just the converter in order to power
> the heating system. They could charge the battery by jumping/hooking it
up
> to the car and charge it that way.
> Does something like this sound reasonable?
>
> Donald
>
Good thoughts. The better way is to use the system on a boiler, providing
you either have a steam system without a make-up water pump or a single zone
hot water system. The best boiler system would be an atmospheric type(one
that has natural draft, not one with a power vent).
HeatMan
> "David Maxson" <etve...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > When we lost power from the recent ice storm, our gas furnace went out,
> > too. Is this inevitable the next time around or is there a way to
safely,
> > simply and temporarily disconnect the thermostat so the gas furnace will
run
> > on it own, without electricity?
> >
> >
> > --------------------------
> > David Maxson
> > 488 Connecticut Avenue
> > Spartanburg, SC 29302
>
You still have to have 24 volts to open the gas valve. That's 24volts AC,
not 2 car batteries hooked up on series for 24 volt DC....
HeatMan
not 2 car batteries hooked up on series for 24 volt DC....
"klmok" <kl...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:3dffdec7....@shawnews.ed.shawcable.net...
HvacTech2
Hi Eric, hope you are having a nice day
On 17-Dec-02 At About 06:02:08, Eric Lee Green wrote to All
Subject: Re: Run gas furnace without electricity?
ELG> From: Eric Lee Green <er...@badtux.org>
ELG> In article <uvv9ta4...@corp.supernews.com>, Donald Kinney
ELG> ruminated:
>>> This is definitely not something anyone should do as you are
>>> operating on the limit. what if it fails? there goes your house and
>>> maybe your life. it also overheats the heat exchanger and will
>>> damage it. -=> HvacTech2 <=-
>> Okay, someone who signs with something that looks like he knows
>> something about furnances and boilers. How much current does a boiler
>> use? Say one with electronic start and a circulator pump. What
>> about a force air furnance?
ELG> Depending on the size of the furnace and ductwork, a forced air
ELG> furnace has anywhere from a 1/2 horsepower to 1 horsepower motor.
ELG> I.e., pulls anywhere from 750 watts to 1500 watts of power. The
ELG> bigger problem is that these may be run at 220v in a forced air
ELG> furnace that also supports air conditioning, in order to avoid having
ELG> an unbalanced circuit (i.e., one leg of a 220v circuit that is
ELG> carrying more current due to pushing a 110v blower motor as well as
ELG> the A/C compressor). I am unaware of any inverters which support
ELG> 220v.
if it is a forced air furnace ( gas or oil fired ) it is going to be a 110
volt blower motor. the 220 volt motor is usually found in an air handler for a
heat pump or electric heat furnace.
-=> HvacTech2 <=-
.. "After they make styrofoam, what do they ship it in?" - s.w.
HvacTech2
Hi Donald, hope you are having a nice day
On 17-Dec-02 At About 05:09:09, Donald Kinney wrote to All
Subject: Re: Run gas furnace without electricity?
DK> From: "Donald Kinney" <kin...@ndak.net>
>> This is definitely not something anyone should do as you are
>> operating on the limit. what if it fails? there goes your house and
>> maybe your life. it also overheats the heat exchanger and will damage
>> it. -=> HvacTech2 <=-
DK> Okay, someone who signs with something that looks like he knows
DK> something about furnances and boilers. How much current does a boiler
DK> use? Say one with electronic start and a circulator pump.
That all depends on the type of circulator pump used and the type of ignition
used. but a boiler would draw less than a forced air furnace usually.
-=> HvacTech2 <=-
.. Put on your seatbelt. I'm gonna try something new.
TakeThisOut
swapping it out with your car battery as needed.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
TAKETHISOUT budysbackagain(@)THAT TOO a-oh-ell dot com
TKM
Modern furnaces need electricity to run the controls, gas valve and the
blower. The electrical load is substantial (500 - 1500 watts typically) and
there are various voltages involved. Newer furnaces have computer controls
which need regulated power. It's tough to cobble up a back-up system
because of the electrical complexities plus there's a good chance of
overheating or a fire hazard.
My solution is to have a portable back-up generator that I can connect
easily (via plugs and extension cords) to a few key loads. The freezer and
refrigerator in the summer, the furnace in the winter and a light or two.
It's fairly easy to put a plug and socket on the furnace power feed and
that's all that's needed.
The generator has to be outside or in a well ventilated space unless you
install one permanently and hook it up to the natural gas supply and an
exhaust pipe.
Gas furnaces were once designed to use natural circulation Their gas valves
had a "manual" setting so that you could turn them off and on by hand in
case of electrical failure. They were large and not very efficient, but you
could sit out a blizzard in comfort.
TKM
Eric Lee Green
> On 12/17/02 9:32 AM, in article cdHL9.5076$7b3...@news.bellsouth.net,
> "David Maxson" <etve...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> When we lost power from the recent ice storm, our gas furnace went out,
>> too. Is this inevitable the next time around or is there a way to safely,
>> simply and temporarily disconnect the thermostat so the gas furnace will run
>> on it own, without electricity?
>
>
> source to work. The floor furnace I had used the electricity from a
Oh boy. I remember those things. They worked like cr*p. Usually they were
in the central hallway, under the theory that the heat would spill out
into the surrounding rooms. Theory never really met reality. My parents
replaced their floor furnace with forced air gas heating as soon as they
were able to afford to do so.
> furnace cycle. I think there was a wall furnace that worked the same way. I
> have no idea how expensive they were or if they're still available.
The wall furnace worked by convection, drew air from the bottom and
exhausted at the top. This actually worked reasonably well, but the
advent of central air conditioning pretty much eliminated them. Not to
mention that forced air needed much less intrusion in the room than
one of these wall furnaces (which took up a space roughly 3 feet wide
from floor to ceiling, once you considered the empty space you needed
around them).
--
Eric Lee Green EMAIL: mailto:er...@badtux.org
http://badtux.org/home/eric/resume.html
Terry King
system I had a few years ago. It was a typical hydronic
Oil fired system. It had an 80 watt Grundfoss circulator
pump and an untypical wood fired heat exchanger in the return loop.
I used the wood heat a lot and was concerned about a
melt-down steam-up situation with a power failure. I
hooked up a 12V RV battery to a small 12VDC to 120VAC inverter
with a multipole relay to switch the inverter on and the
circulator pump to the inverter on a power failure.
I tested this several times, and it ran during an hour long
outage several winters ago.
It did NOT run the oil burner! Only the circulator.
Now, I have mainly a standalone non-electric manually powered
woodstove for normal heating. I also have a small propane
furnace that runs two small loops for auxilliary heat in
the Winter when we travel for a few days. It has a direct-
connect thermocouple and pilot light. All it would need to fire
and circulate water would be less than 10 watts for the controls
and 90 watts for the circulator. BUT it needs about 150 watts for the
dumb positive draft vent blower!! I've thought about trying to
run a small 12V blower there, but haven't got aroundtoit.
This kind of small system might be reasonable to run on battery
backup, but anything that needs 1/2 to 1 hp for motors and
blowers will need a generator to run it for very long.
I love my soapstone wood stove, and I'm crazy enough to love cutting
6 cords of wood a year, and hauling it and splitting it and stacking
it, and staying warm many times over...
nJb
I have a forced air unit but there is a knob I can pull to bypass the
gas actuator valve. Circulating the heat throuout the house without
electricity is a problem but at least I can generate some heat. It
would require manual monitoring.
--
Jack
.
Tom
Then you haven't seen very many systems. A fair number of more recent
systems that are installed as complete Heating AC systems use 240 volt
air handlers.
--
Tom
John Gilmer
"Joseph Meehan" <sligoj...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:XMML9.9588$jh2.1...@twister.columbus.rr.com...
> That is likely to overheat the system and could be dangerous. It is
not
> designed to work that way, even if it might function to a very small
degree.
Well, at one time it WAS designed to work that way. That's why the overtemp
control didn't require a manual reset: it was design to permit SOME heat
without electric power.
John Gilmer
>
> This is definitely not something anyone should do as you are operating on
the
> limit. what if it fails? there goes your house and maybe your life. it
also
> overheats the heat exchanger and will damage it.
Well, in the older systems this was not something you did. The system was
just wired that way. If the power went out your hot air furnace would
still put out some heat.
In those systems the same control turned on the fan and if the temperature
kept going up it would turn off the fire. If you want to worry about
safety systems not working you must not sleep very much.
Now, were I to have a hot air gas furnace I definitely would not modify it
to run hot without the fan but systems installed in the 50's and 60's worked
that way "out of the box!"
HvacTech2
Hi John, hope you are having a nice day
On 17-Dec-02 At About 02:06:00, John Gilmer wrote to All
Subject: Re: Run gas furnace without electricity?
JG> From: "John Gilmer" <gil...@crosslink.net>
>> This is definitely not something anyone should do as you are
>> operating on
JG> the
>> limit. what if it fails? there goes your house and maybe your life.
>> it
JG> also
>> overheats the heat exchanger and will damage it.
JG> Well, in the older systems this was not something you did. The
JG> system was just wired that way. If the power went out your hot air
JG> furnace would still put out some heat.
JG> In those systems the same control turned on the fan and if the
JG> temperature kept going up it would turn off the fire. If you want
JG> to worry about safety systems not working you must not sleep very
JG> much.
The old gravity systems were designed to run without a fan but if it has a
fan it isn't designed to run without electricity. I don't worry about safety
systems working unless someone is using the unit improperly such as you
suggested.
.. "Its hard for me to buy clothes because I'm not my size."- s.w.
Joseph Meehan
say there has never been such a thing. I would stay away from that kind of
animal anyway.
--
Joseph E. Meehan
26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
"John Gilmer" <gil...@crosslink.net> wrote in message
news:3e007bd6$0$30...@dingus.crosslink.net...
Joseph Meehan
never had fans, at least non I have ever seen. They also were vastly
different in design. Today's equipment can't handle the same thing.
--
Joseph E. Meehan
26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
"John Gilmer" <gil...@crosslink.net> wrote in message
news:3e007bd9$0$30...@dingus.crosslink.net...
CharlesW99
is an ice storm. As I live in a smaller subdivision, we are the last to get
power restored. About 10 years ago, after a nasty storm that we were without
power for 5 days (and after a few days, you are so tempted to stay in a hotel),
I got a gasoline powered generator.
I have used this now twice (about once every 5 years) to power our natural gas
furnace. I believe the generator is rated at 2000 watts peak and about 1200
watts constant (or 10 amps). I thought this was marginal, but the furnace
worked like a champ.
You have to disconnect the furnace from the house wiring, then connect the
furnace wiring to the generator....You definately do not want the generator to
connect with the house wiring. It is WONDERFUL having heat, even in a darkened
house.
Between uses, use gas stabilizer and squirt a little oil into the cylinder head
and turn it over once so the rings and walls are lubricated until the next
storm). I think I bought this generator on sale for around $300. Of course,
during a storm you cannot buy a generator for love or money.
Also, in the fall, I make sure my propane Bar B Q is ready in case I need it to
cook during a power outtage (unfortunately, I do not have a gas stove)
Charlie
>Subject: Run gas furnace without electricity?
>From: "David Maxson" etve...@bellsouth.net
>Date: 12/17/2002 7:32 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <cdHL9.5076$7b3...@news.bellsouth.net>
fiche
"CharlesW99" <charl...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:20021218225903...@mb-cr.aol.com...
, in the fall, I make sure my propane Bar B Q is ready in case I need it to
> cook during a power outtage (unfortunately, I do not have a gas stove)
>
>
available now depend on electric hot surface ignitors to light the
oven.There used to be ranges available with millivolt powerpile/valve
systems that could light the oven but I havent seen one in about 20
years.And the ones with the HSI are useless in a power outage.Altho you can
still use the surface burners which is at least better than an electric
range.
Just in the last couple months I have been seeing new gas ranges which
have a lockout valve for the surface burners.If this becomes a trend,and I
suspect it will,even the use of the surface burners during an outage will be
history.
Maybe your best bet would be indeed to purchase a gas range and run it
off the generator,if power outages are that common and devastating.
HeatMan
attached a squirrel cage blower to so they could have faster heat. The
furnace was still millivolt so it would run when the power was out and the
blower controls were 115V.
"Joseph Meehan" <sligoj...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vD8M9.10370$jh2.2...@twister.columbus.rr.com...