Is there a "special" tool for moving dead brush 100 feet away?

[Danny D]

I own a wood chipper, but I've learned that a 2-inch chipper takes
forever ... so ... for fire prevention, I need to arrange brush for
professional wood chipping next week, so, last night, I created a
half dozen small brush piles which need to be moved to the roadway:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/13163716/img/13163716.jpg

I need to move some brush uphill, some downhill, and then, once on
pavement, down about a hundred or so feet into piles convenient for
the professional wood chipping crew:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/13163718/img/13163718.jpg

My question: Not owning a pickup truck, is there a hand tool for
moving brush piles en masse a hundred feet once on the roadway?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13163720/img/13163720.jpg

PS: Sorry for the poor quality photos; it took far longer to
collect the brush and move it down the hill than I thought,
so these pictures are when it covered the driveway and I
was moving it to the roadway about 100 to 150 feet away.

[Bob F]

Rake it onto a tarp, then grab a corner or 4 and drag it.

[Ralph Mowery]

"Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:kntqg6$tpd$1...@dont-email.me...

>
> Rake it onto a tarp, then grab a corner or 4 and drag it.
>

That is what I do when I trim the shrubs in the yard. Spread the tarp and
put the trimmings on it and then pull it to the edge of the woods to dump
it. If I had a lot and a long way to go, I might be tempted to put a rope
on the tarp and pul it with the riding mower.

[hrho...@sbcglobal.net]

On May 26, 3:26 pm, "Ralph Mowery" <rmowery28...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Bob F" <bobnos...@gmail.com> wrote in message

What he says sounds pretty familiar to me, it's what I do for somewhat
shorter hauling distances,

[DD_BobK]

+1

[Oren]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 13:19:04 -0700, "Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Rake it onto a tarp, then grab a corner or 4 and drag it.
>

+1

(I bet he can't get Dynamite)

[Roy]

Lord love a duck...you have hands and arms...pick up the wood and CARRY it
to where you want it. How do you thing mankind has transported stuff for
eons?

Geez....some pipples are slow.

===

[Oren]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 10:26:46 -0700 (PDT), Roy <wil...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Lord love a duck...you have hands and arms...pick up the wood and CARRY it
>to where you want it. How do you thing mankind has transported stuff for
>eons?
>

wheelbarrows

>Geez....some pipples are slow.
>

Who?

[ChairMan]

In news:50b7q8h7biv46dikh...@4ax.com,
Oren <Or...@127.0.0.1> belched:

turtles and slugs and.............

[Oren]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 14:26:00 -0500, "ChairMan" <nos...@thanks.com>
wrote:

Danny does have portable trash / recycle cans ~ 90 gal. size.

They have wheels for transport of some sticks.

[Danny D]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 13:55:53 -0700, Oren wrote:

> Danny does have portable trash / recycle cans ~ 90 gal. size.
> They have wheels for transport of some sticks.

You know, Oren, that's a good idea!

It's embarrassing, but, I hadn't even thought about
using the recycling bins for *temporary* transport!

I actually have quite a few of those green/blue buckets, because
I fill them up every week for the recycling crew, but I knew
that it would take me the rest of my life if I tried to
fill them this time.

I'm not finished yet, but the four-foot high piles of fifteen
feet long branches stretches at least 150 feet along the
roadway.

It's a long linear pile because I had to keep them behind
the white line - and there isn't much room on the roadway:

http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/13174119/img/13174119.jpg

[Danny D]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 13:19:04 -0700, Bob F wrote:

> Rake it onto a tarp, then grab a corner or 4 and drag it.

This is the best idea of all, although I'll have to carry or
throw the ten to twenty-foot gnarly long wood branches onto
the tarp, rather than raking them onto it.

I only realized I must have left my tarp camping last week
when I went to look for it; so I will ask my buddies if they
have it perchance.

Until then, I was using this 100-foot safety rope, using
the same concept and idea of the tarp.

http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13174192/img/13174192.jpg

[Danny D]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 16:26:52 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote:

> I might be tempted to put a rope on the tarp and

> pull it with the riding mower.

Thanks Ralph! That was a great idea of using the rope!

http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13174202/img/13174202.jpg

I *wish* I had a riding mower (or a bobcat!) but, in the
end, I used my hefty weight to pull the unwieldy 15 feet
wide bundles a few hundred feet down to the roadway to
then line them up the 150 or so feet it took to fit all
the four foot piles in a long linear row behind the white
line.

http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13174232/img/13174232.jpg

[Danny D]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 17:49:12 -0700, hrho...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

> What he says sounds pretty familiar to me, it's what I do
> for somewhat shorter hauling distances,

That idea of using the 100-foot rope worked like a charm!

http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/13174254/img/13174254.jpg

I found, with experience, that a double wrap was easier to
hold, and a double loop of that double wrap allowed for ease
of steering left and right (like a pitman arm, idler arm
combination) since the bundle tended to go off course after
50 to 100 feet down the roadway.

[Danny D]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 10:02:05 -0700, Oren wrote:

> (I bet he can't get Dynamite)

I sure wanted dynamite. Or gasoline, after collecting
these branches from a wide swath of about 200 feet
of hillside, funneling it all downhill into a series
of tall channels that dumped onto the roadway:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13174332/img/13174332.jpg

At that point, the pile still had a few hundred feet to go,
but at least the next hundred feet were on pavement (which
is infinitely easier than moving the stuff to that
collection point from scatterings along the steep hillside).
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13174405/img/13174405.jpg

[Danny D]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 00:46:51 -0400, gfretwell wrote:

> You can drag quite a bit of the pile that way.
> This works particularly well if you don't cut the pieces
> too short.

I cut the brush at the base last year, so they're all their
original size, which means a lot are 20 feet long, although the
average is probably something around 10 to 15 feet long.

They're pretty gnarly though:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/13174439/img/13174439.jpg

[Danny D]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 10:26:46 -0700, Roy wrote:

> ...you have hands and arms...

> pick up the wood and CARRY it to where you want it.

As you noted, I did carry the sticks, one by one, from the
hillside, which looked like this after a few hours of carrying:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13174462/img/13174462.jpg

But then, at about five different points, there was this
taller-than-a-man pile at junction points to deal with:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/13174493/img/13174493.jpg

I was looking for a better way than *carrying* five of those
piles a hundred and fifty feet by hand to the final destination.

[Danny D]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 10:26:46 -0700, Roy wrote:

> How do you thing mankind has transported stuff for eons?

Funny you mention that, because I fell back into the stone
age building a rustic "plow" out of a chunk of wood:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13174110/img/13174110.jpg

I used the yoke end to push the piles into bundles:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13174112/img/13174112.jpg

And, I used the barbed end to tease the tangled mess apart:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/13174111/img/13174111.jpg

Once I got the pile manageable, then I moved into the rope
age, which did the bulk of the distance moving.

And, when it was all almost cleaned up, only then could I
move into the wheelbarrow and broom age to clean up the
aftermath.

It was then a hot shower and poison oak detoxifying step.

[Danny D]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 11:58:06 -0700, Oren wrote:

> How do you thing mankind has transported stuff for eons?
> wheelbarrows

Hmmm... looking at this picture of just one of the collection
points, would you use a wheelbarrow on that tangled mess?
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13174517/img/13174517.jpg

The wheelbarrow *did* come in handy though, near the end,
when all that was left are these gnarly bits and pieces:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/13174109/img/13174109.jpg

[Danny D]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 14:26:00 -0500, ChairMan wrote:

>>> Geez....some pipples are slow.
>> Who?
> turtles and slugs and...

I think he means me! :)

It took hours over a span of three days to clear the entire
hillside by pushing the brush downhill to five collection points,
dumping it onto the pavement - and then moving it to the roadway.

I did lose my ladder at one point ... I was perplexed about where it
went, until I saw it buried under the piles as I teased them apart:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/13174541/img/13174541.jpg

My next clearing will be the hardest of all, as the brush has
to move *uphill* about 50 feet! That's going to take some
mechanical ingenuity to accomplish efficiently.

[JoeBro]

Just curious. Did you just spend more time here at A.H.R asking questions,
providing updates, taking and posting photos, etc. than you would have
spent just piking up the branches and moving them? It seems like you did.

I can't believe what a massive production you made out of such a small and
simple job.

Whatever you do, don't try to build a dog house. It will take you years.

[Danny D]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 10:50:33 +0000, JoeBro wrote:

> more time here at A.H.R asking questions,
> providing updates, taking and posting photos, etc. than you would have
> spent just piking up the branches and moving them?

Learning takes more time than doing.

Snapping & annotating photos takes more time than not.
Enjoying the learning is far better than the task itself.

Most people ask, and leave.
Most people just want the job done (any way they can).

Reminds me of the workmen who use a screwdriver & hammer
for everything, simply because it's expedient (caring not
for galling your equipment).

I'm not most people; I enjoy learning about everything
related to home repair - mostly because I've never had
the luxury of time & property to do it myself before.

I can't wait 'till I build my custom hillside tool shed!

[Oren]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 15:22:51 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

>
>I can't wait 'till I build my custom hillside tool shed!

Stand by folks... it ought to be a hoot.

[Dan Espen]

I can see it now...

Is there a special foundation for keeping my tool shed from
sliding down this hill.

Pictures of a pile of lumber and tools in a valley.

--
Dan Espen

[Oren]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 11:53:59 -0400, Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net>
wrote:

>> I can't wait 'till I build my custom hillside tool shed!
>
>I can see it now...
>
> Is there a special foundation for keeping my tool shed from
> sliding down this hill.
>
> Pictures of a pile of lumber and tools in a valley.

..."special foundation"

<http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02570/potd-house-lake_2570082k.jpg>

[hrho...@sbcglobal.net]

Ignore the negative comments, it's been a hoot reading the thread, and
from other posts you have made you're
really quite smart and have good ideas!!!

[Oren]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 10:00:16 -0700 (PDT), "hrho...@sbcglobal.net"
<hrho...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>> I can't wait 'till I build my custom hillside tool shed!
>
>Ignore the negative comments, it's been a hoot reading the thread, and
>from other posts you have made you're
>really quite smart and have good ideas!!!

It is a hoot! I've learned some things from his threads. I was never
able to teach him to just pull drywall down from a garage door header.

A hillside tool shed should be good for 900 threads on the subject.
Another hoot.

[JoeBro]

Danny D <Dan...@example.com> wrote in news:ko2i4a$hmh$1...@speranza.aioe.org:

> On Tue, 28 May 2013 10:50:33 +0000, JoeBro wrote:
>
>> more time here at A.H.R asking questions,
>> providing updates, taking and posting photos, etc. than you would have
>> spent just piking up the branches and moving them?
>
> Learning takes more time than doing.

Obviously that is your case. However most people can learn to pick up a
few sticks and move them at the same time they are just doing it.

Nevertheless, as some point out, your posts are a hoot. Great for a laugh
and to make most of us very glad that we aren't you.

Now, try to figure out how to make some trusses for your tool shed.

[Dan Espen]

Isn't it great when you have someone to ridicule?
Makes it so easy to forget your own shortcomings.

--
Dan Espen

[Danny D]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 08:52:49 -0700, Oren wrote:

>>I can't wait 'till I build my custom hillside tool shed!
> Stand by folks... it ought to be a hoot.

It's gonna match the architecture of the house!

[Danny D]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 10:16:08 -0700, Oren wrote:

> A hillside tool shed should be good for 900 threads on
> the subject.

And that's just for the foundation!
:)

[Danny D]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 18:46:34 +0000, JoeBro wrote:

> most people can learn to pick up a few sticks and move
> them at the same time they are just doing it.

I was hoping for a better way.

In fact, I'm praying for a better way, because I still have
about a hundred linear feet of slop to clear where the roadway
is UPHILL fifty feet ... which has to be done this week.

I'm thinking of just throwing the darn things uphill
but then they'll clutter the roadway and be a hazard.

[Oren]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 19:51:21 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

Stucco?

Get more primitive; like, what a real man would do on a hillside.

[Danny D]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 13:15:27 -0700, Oren wrote:

> Get more primitive; like, what a real man would do on a hillside.

A man cave?

[Oren]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 20:36:26 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 28 May 2013 13:15:27 -0700, Oren wrote:
>
>> Get more primitive; like, what a real man would do on a hillside.
>
>A man cave?

No. Not at all. Caves are dangerous and kill people. Put the shed on
the same elevation of the house.

Worry about the small stuff later.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 20:36:26 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 28 May 2013 13:15:27 -0700, Oren wrote:
>
>> Get more primitive; like, what a real man would do on a hillside.
>
>A man cave?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQPGJSIq3ys

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 19:53:07 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

Have you studied the history of the tool shed, yet?

[Oren]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 16:59:00 -0400, k...@attt.bizz wrote:

>>A man cave?
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQPGJSIq3ys

Come in Thelma, radio check! Copy?

[k...@attt.bizz]

Well, you wanted a *real* man cave...

[Danny D]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 17:00:15 -0400, krw wrote:

> Have you studied the history of the tool shed, yet?

I'm still working on the geology report for the foundation
materials. Hornblende, quartz, schist, etc.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 21:25:39 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

How about concrete?

[Dan Espen]

Why don't you just put wheels on it?

--
Dan Espen

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 19:00:15 -0400, Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net>
wrote:

He'd have to study the history of the wheel.

[Danny D]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 19:05:48 -0400, krw wrote:

> He'd have to study the history of the wheel.

It would be what material and size to make the wheels, not
necessarily the history per se.

Note: It always amazed me that the native Americans never invented
the (transportation) wheel; if only they had the USENET, they'd have
that, and steel, and gunpowder, and ...

[Danny D]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 10:00:16 -0700, hrho...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

> Ignore the negative comments

Thanks for the kind advice. Luckily I have very thick skin. :)

By way of update, I failed miserably yesterday in cleaning the
brush where the road was *uphill* on the steep hillside. :(

It's hard to see in a 2D picture, but it's a steep 50' slope
where your boots sink a foot deep and often you frustratingly
break into a pile of old brush up to your hips in depth:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/13184376/img/13184376.jpg

While great ideas came about from this thread for the downhill
cleaning, the steep uphill cleaning defied (my) human hands,
wheeled recycling bins, wheelbarrows, tarps, rope, and rakes.
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13184375/img/13184375.jpg

In the end, this measly sickly pile of debris is all I could
tease and tug and pull out of the steep slope, where a hundred
times that amount remains, awaiting a better idea:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13184377/img/13184377.jpg

Verdict: Fail.

[Danny D]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 19:00:15 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:

> Why don't you just put wheels on it?

LESSONS LEARNED:
Given the ideas presented for the *downhill* slope brush cleaning,
the most useful suggestion of all was to use the tarp.
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/13184456/img/13184456.jpg

The tarp allowed me to drag the piles of brush the 150'
or so to the roadway even easier than the rope did. Plus, it
was much easier to untangle the tarp than the rope when done.
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13184500/img/13184500.jpg

With the tarp, it wasn't easy, as an average-sized man
can move these piles as far as they need to on a flat or
downslope (e.g., moving piles 150' took only a few minutes):
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13184535/img/13184535.jpg

Note:
The wheelbarrow held pitifully small loads, as did the
recycling bin containers (even given their large size).
I didn't have any motorized moving equipment handy.

Upslope was a whole different story however, where all the
otherwise-great ideas failed miserably (for me, anyway).

[Danny D]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 19:37:12 +0000, Danny D wrote:

> is there a hand tool for moving brush piles en masse a
> hundred feet once on the roadway?

To recap the thread, the suggested tool that worked the best
in my downhill situation was the tarp.

The only thing left was to cull out all this frail stuff
so as to protect the wood chippers from breathing poison oak:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13184560/img/13184560.jpg

But, pulling out a few dozen vines out of a brush pile was
a trivially easy task, and, was basically the gift wrapping
for the wood chippers to make life just a bit safer for them:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13184562/img/13184562.jpg

They were scheduled for yesterday, but, maybe they'll come today.

[Roy]

Like I told you before Danny...gather these sticks and branches with your
hands and take them into your loving arms and transport them to where
ever your heart desires. Really, it is not a difficult task as I have
done this many, many times under similar conditions and over similar
terrain.

[Oren]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 23:46:15 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 28 May 2013 19:05:48 -0400, krw wrote:
>
>> He'd have to study the history of the wheel.
>
>It would be what material and size to make the wheels, not
>necessarily the history per se.
>

But you still have to study the history of lubrication.

>Note: It always amazed me that the native Americans never invented
>the (transportation) wheel; if only they had the USENET, they'd have
>that, and steel, and gunpowder, and ...

They did have Peyote.

[Danny D]

On Wed, 29 May 2013 10:38:40 -0700, Roy wrote:

> Really, it is not a difficult task as I have done this many,
> many times under similar conditions and over similar terrain.

You're a stronger man than I am, because it's fifty feet uphill,
and the hill itself is overgrown and tangled, such that you fall
with every step, most of the time doing a face plant since you're
practically vertical with the slope.

It's hard to see the slope in this picture, but, it's there:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13185147/img/13185147.jpg

Under those conditions, while you apparently can carry loads of
brush with your hands; I tried ... and I can't (effectively).

In fact, I can't even climb the hill empty handed, without grabbing
onto tree limbs to keep from falling back down the hill. I tied
a rope to hang onto, but then that left me only one free hand to
carry all that brush up the hill with.

All I could do was "throw" the brush uphill, half the time
it didn't make it all the way, so it tumbled back down upon
me.

Since the space is penned in from every side but up, I just
couldn't do it. If you can carry armloads of brush in those
circumstances, all I can say is you're a (much) stronger man
than I am.

[Oren]

On Wed, 29 May 2013 17:03:55 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

>It's hard to see in a 2D picture, but it's a steep 50' slope
>where your boots sink a foot deep and often you frustratingly
>break into a pile of old brush up to your hips in depth:
> http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/13184376/img/13184376.jpg

Is this the planned location for your bright and shiny new tool shed
on a mountain side?

Please say no!

[Oren]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 19:00:15 -0400, Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net>
wrote:

I was thinking timber skids.

[Danny D]

On Wed, 29 May 2013 11:22:39 -0700, Oren wrote:

> Is this the planned location for your bright and shiny new
> tool shed on a mountain side?

Hmmm... maybe.

Or a vineyard.

[Dan Espen]

The wheels comment was regarding the tool shed which
I'm pretty sure will slide down your hill.

If you really intend to conquer this hill, so that you
can navigate up and down and clear brush, I think
you're up to the point where you need to build a stairway.

--
Dan Espen

[chaniarts]

it it up in a bundle with your 100' rope, walk uphill, and pull.

[Danny D]

On Wed, 29 May 2013 11:51:11 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

> tie it up in a bundle with your 100' rope, walk uphill, and pull.

I'll try that next.

I had discounted that, in favor of the tarp, but the tarp
caught on so much brush that it wouldn't budge.

Likewise with the bucket. It kept flipping over and
spilling its contents.

Thanks

[k...@attt.bizz]

Right. What use did they have for the wheel?

[Danny D]

On Wed, 29 May 2013 21:11:15 -0400, krw wrote:

> What use did they have for the wheel?

This is OT, but it always amazed me that the American natives
didn't invent the (transportation) wheel. Seems so logical.

If they had better communication, e.g., the USENET, they'd
have the wheel, and a whole lot more.

The only thing they wouldn't have are all the diseases that
the white man traded with them.

The USENET is so much more hygienic than actual contact!

[JoeBro]

Danny D <Dan...@example.com> wrote in news:ko6vtr$36f$4...@speranza.aioe.org:

> On Wed, 29 May 2013 21:11:15 -0400, krw wrote:
>
>> What use did they have for the wheel?
>
> This is OT, but it always amazed me that the American natives
> didn't invent the (transportation) wheel. Seems so logical.

Just because something is logical, doesn't mean that there is sufficient
intellegence available to take advantage of it. As an example of that see
your recent thread on moving stickes.

[DD_BobK]

How about a funicular railway with a "maint car w/ open platform"?
It could haul tools AND debris.

[DD_BobK]

DADD-
Ever wonder why downhill skiing is so much easier than uphill?

[DD_BobK]

How about a funicular railway with a "maint car / platform"?

[willshak]

gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> On Sun, 26 May 2013 19:37:12 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I own a wood chipper, but I've learned that a 2-inch chipper takes
>> forever ... so ... for fire prevention, I need to arrange brush for
>> professional wood chipping next week, so, last night, I created a
>> half dozen small brush piles which need to be moved to the roadway:
>> http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/13163716/img/13163716.jpg
>>
>> I need to move some brush uphill, some downhill, and then, once on
>> pavement, down about a hundred or so feet into piles convenient for
>> the professional wood chipping crew:
>> http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/13163718/img/13163718.jpg
>>
>> My question: Not owning a pickup truck, is there a hand tool for

>> moving brush piles en masse a hundred feet once on the roadway?

>> http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13163720/img/13163720.jpg
>>
>> PS: Sorry for the poor quality photos; it took far longer to
>> collect the brush and move it down the hill than I thought,
>> so these pictures are when it covered the driveway and I
>> was moving it to the roadway about 100 to 150 feet away.
>
> Rake it over a rope with an eye in it, wrap the rope up over the pile,
> through the eye and pull it tight.
> You can drag quite a bit of the pile that way. This works particularly
> well if you don't cut the pieces too short.

It's better with a tarp. Just pulling the stuff with a rope may cause
the brush to dig into the ground and drop pieces, beside being harder to
pull. The tarp will prevent that.

--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @

[Oren]

On Wed, 29 May 2013 21:11:15 -0400, k...@attt.bizz wrote:

>>>Note: It always amazed me that the native Americans never invented
>>>the (transportation) wheel; if only they had the USENET, they'd have
>>>that, and steel, and gunpowder, and ...
>>
>>They did have Peyote.
>
>Right. What use did they have for the wheel?

Can't think of one. Lokato natives got by just fine, transporting
material without wheels.

<http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/media/travois-2567.jpg>

[Oren]

On Thu, 30 May 2013 08:00:28 -0700 (PDT), DD_BobK <rkaz...@gmail.com>
wrote:

He just needs a team of mules and some rope / chain...

Or a sky hook.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Thu, 30 May 2013 07:42:51 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 29 May 2013 21:11:15 -0400, krw wrote:
>
>> What use did they have for the wheel?
>
>This is OT, but it always amazed me that the American natives
>didn't invent the (transportation) wheel. Seems so logical.

>If they had better communication, e.g., the USENET, they'd
>have the wheel, and a whole lot more.
>
>The only thing they wouldn't have are all the diseases that
>the white man traded with them.

Regardless of what your American-hating public school teachers told
you, that was a two-way street.

>The USENET is so much more hygienic than actual contact!

Now you sound like a millennial.

[k...@attt.bizz]

Intelligence has nothing to do with it. There was little need.

[chaniarts]

weren't they nomads to some degree? wouldn't it have been a help to
moving household goods?

[Danny D]

On Thu, 30 May 2013 09:13:19 -0700, Oren wrote:

> He just needs a team of mules

Or, I wave $100/day to anyone that stands in the
front parking lot at the Home Depot ...

[Danny D]

On Thu, 30 May 2013 12:59:45 -0400, krw wrote:

> Regardless of what your American-hating public school teachers told
> you, that was a two-way street.

Indeed. Syphilis went from the Caribbean to the Old World,
while Gonorrhea followed suit in the reverse direction.

The Mexican natives should have learned, from the lessons
of the battle of Crecy, that you need to shoot the horses
first (the big llamas), and then stay away from the sharp
swords and simply use arrows to pierce the armor, or, at
least use their superior numbers to deprive the Spanish
of their supplies. Had they done *that*, they might have
still retained control of America. If they had had the USENET,
they could have asked me and I would have told them that.

[Danny D]

On Wed, 29 May 2013 14:49:33 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:

> I think you're up to the point where you need to build a stairway.

I've started stockpiling the stakes and railroad ties ...

[Danny D]

On Thu, 30 May 2013 07:59:57 -0700, DD_BobK wrote:

> downhill skiing is so much easier than uphill

This particular section is hemmed in on all sides by
forest and terrain, none of which is near a roadway.

The only roadway is the top of the hill, which is
50 feet above the debris.

So there are only two choices:
a) Leave the debris where it lies (fire hazard notwithstanding)
b) Tote the debris uphill (as hard as that is)

[Attila Iskander]

"Danny D" <Dan...@example.com> wrote in message
news:ko8mau$h7$4...@speranza.aioe.org...

Problem is they didn't know anything about Crecy when the Conquistadors
landed.

[Dan Espen]

Sounds like a plan.

--
Dan Espen

[HeyBub]

Danny D wrote:
> On Wed, 29 May 2013 21:11:15 -0400, krw wrote:
>
>> What use did they have for the wheel?
>
> This is OT, but it always amazed me that the American natives
> didn't invent the (transportation) wheel. Seems so logical.
>

They also did not invent a meaningful religion, a written language,
navigation or trans-ocean travel, significant medical practice, and on and
on.

Only part of the descriptor "noble savage" is correct.

[Danny D]

On Thu, 30 May 2013 19:28:59 -0500, Attila Iskander wrote:

> Problem is they didn't know anything about Crecy
> when the Conquistadors landed.

I realize that. They were half-way through their combination
of stone age/bronze age, while the Spaniards were gifted with
guile and sharp steel swords.

Yet, the numbers were so astonishingly lopsided, 200 Spaniards
to 4,000 natives at a time, that the natives had only to
learn, and they wouldn't have been defeated.

Point is that applies to the USENET, where we learn from
everyone else, or, as the somewhat mythical Sun Tzu would say,
know your backyard, and know yourself, and in a hundred
skirmishes with brush and poison oak, you will prevail.

:)

[DD_BobK]

And break the law?

[DD_BobK]

Important piece of information missing...
What prompted the desire to create the debris?

[DD_BobK]

Don't believe the premise of Guns, Germs & Steel?
It seems as though it would have been inevitable in any case.

[DD_BobK]

The technological differences were too large.....

[Danny D]

On Thu, 30 May 2013 21:27:33 -0700, DD_BobK wrote:

>> Or, I wave $100/day to anyone that stands in the
>> front parking lot at the Home Depot ...
>
> And break the law?

I don't know if it's legal or not, but police cruisers
drive by every single day. They can't help but see dozens
of these guys standing in the Home Depot parking lot, day
in and day out.

Nobody doesn't know what they're doing.

So, while I don't know the laws, I don't see that the
people *paid* to enforce them are doing anything about
it that is having any success.

Plus, I've never ever hired someone that way. If anything,
I'd hire out the local kids; but the point was that the
work was immense no matter how you look at it, to lug
the brush *uphill* a steep 50 feet to the roadway.

[Danny D]

On Thu, 30 May 2013 21:46:41 -0700, DD_BobK wrote:

> The technological differences were too large...

I realize you know weapon delivery systems better than anyone
else here, so I won't argue with you on that!

[Danny D]

On Thu, 30 May 2013 21:35:09 -0700, DD_BobK wrote:

> Don't believe the premise of Guns, Germs & Steel?
> It seems as though it would have been inevitable in any case.

I believe in Sun Tzu's premise of defeating the enemy by knowing
both your enemy and yourself, and then using strategy to win.

Guns, horses, germs, cunning, guile, &, I might add, very sharp
swords were formidable; but the real advantage the Spaniards had
were a better strategy than either the Incas or the Aztecs had.

Had the North & South American natives met the invaders on the
beaches, allowing no foot on land, they *might* have prevailed.

However, I've read about every battle in history that I could find,
so I do agree that, in history, repeated attacks by small forces
*have* sometimes defeated overwhelmingly large forces; but, in
general, 200 men at a time shouldn't win a battle against 4,000
opponents - if the natives had only spent the time and energy to
*understand* what they were up against - and then to formulate
a detailed strategy for defeating that enemy.

Easy for me to say, but, these comments, in relation to the
USENET, simply imply that the goal of fully *understanding*
the task at hand is, essentially, the means to a successful
conquest of home repair issues.

Knowing the enemy's weakness, and knowing your strength, is the
key to defeating thousands of those teeny tiny California ants
in your kitchen; or ridding a hillside of a fortress of Poison
Oak; or clearing out the litter of the dead bodies of the Spanish
Moss & Scotch Broom invaders, pulled out, at their weakest point,
during the winter rains; or removing cooty stains from toilets
using chemical warfare to attack where the enemy has his base of
support.

[DD_BobK]

DADD-

Do try & keep up....

most local jurisdictions are proscribed for one reason or another from
enforcing laws related to immigration.
Think about the unintended consequences thereof....

So as an example... if the police aren't enforcing vice laws, it's ok
for you to pick up a street walker?

On second thought....never mind.

[DD_BobK]

I guess you should be contacting Jared Diamond and informing him of
his wrong thinking....

Ya, like this could work?

"if the natives had only spent the time and energy to *understand*
what they were up against - and then to formulate a detailed strategy
for defeating that enemy."

How successful would any of your home repairs have been "in a
technical vacuum" & with people shooting at you?
My guess.... not very.

History (& Jared Diamond) proves you wrong again & again...
I suppose you could find some rare examples to support your premise
but LARGE technological differences are nearly impossible to over come
when warfare is involved.

And please do not give me modern examples.
Most technological differences that exist today are small compared to
500 years ago.
Plus the "leakage rate" is much higher today....

You're amazing.

[k...@attt.bizz]

Across prairies, mountains, and through forests? Likely not. I-80
hadn't been built yet. ;-)

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Fri, 31 May 2013 14:37:00 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

I hope you pay the unemployment insurance, your end of FICA, and
everything CA adds to your employer's misery, too! ;-)

[Danny D]

On Fri, 31 May 2013 10:03:08 -0700, DD_BobK wrote:

> most local jurisdictions are proscribed for one reason or another from
> enforcing laws related to immigration.
> Think about the unintended consequences thereof....

I'll snap a picture of it for you, but there is a white-and-black
sign posted at the very entrances to that Home Depot strictly
forbidding pick up of workers.

White and black signs, are, you may recall, for legal
use only (at least when on public roadways).

I tried to google street view it for you, but they appear
to have blurred out the signs, for some reason:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/13200374/img/13200374.png

I don't remember exactly what the sign says, as I see it every
time I go there - but next time I go there, I'll snap a photo
of it for you.

[Danny D]

On Fri, 31 May 2013 10:13:29 -0700, DD_BobK wrote:

> Most technological differences that exist today are
> small compared to 500 years ago.

The stirrup, for example, was a huge advantage in its
day. So was the concept of Blitzkrieg in the day of
the Mongols and Vikings. Clearly the aircraft carrier
was a game-changing technological difference, as was
radar and sonar in the more recent WWII.

Moving closer to the present day, had Americans ever
been willing to fight all-out-war against Asians who
didn't attack them directly, we would have won the two
Asian "police actions" we fought, expressly because
our technological prowess was/is greater.

Yet, our strategic goal was implicitly why both those
wars ended in, essentially, a draw - even though we
actually "won" nearly every battle ever fought.

> Plus the "leakage rate" is much higher today....

Exactly my point! That's the beauty of USENET!

(Although don't for a second forget the massive
spying going on in the USA by the government of certain
countries historically xenophobic and bent on world
domination - which - history shows - they *will*
achieve, sooner or later.)

[Danny D]

On Thu, 30 May 2013 21:30:51 -0700, DD_BobK wrote:

> Important piece of information missing...
> What prompted the desire to create the debris?

Know thine enemy, and know thyself, and in a hundred
battles, you will prevail (Sun Tzu).

I am trying to eradicate three enemy combatant species
which have taken over acres of chaparral in my control,
namely:
1. Scotch Broom <== foreign invader
2. Spanish Broom <== foreign invader
3. Poison Oak <== native irritant

Those fast-growing invaders from the Mediterranean islands
quickly crowd out the native inhabitants, even to the point
of photosynthesizing from their very stems, so as to suck
the life-giving supplies from the mouths of the native plants
that actually feed the native animals.

The strengths of these nitrogen fixers is that they can
grow where no other plants can; and that they sow seeds
which last for 60 years, a percentage growing every year.

The weakness of the Scotch Broom is a relatively meager
supply line, via a single tap root, which holds tenaciously
in the summer months, but which yields like cutting warmed
butter in the wetness of the winter rains.

So, every winter, I spend a few hours blissfully hunting
Scotch Broom, destroying entire regiments of the stuff,
leaving the wounded to die & decay where they lie on the
slippery mud-soaked slopes (war is mud, after all).

Each spring, the lower-hugging guerrilla Spanish Broom,
which is much harder to flush out, even in the winter rains,
shows its true colors by blossoming a sweet yellow, which
removes all vestiges of camouflage. I've learned that to
mow them down is merely to invite a rebirth from the stumps,
so, the approach is to methodically cut and spray with
chemical warfare (glyphosate), within 5 minutes of the
dismembering. This, and only this, prevents the roots
from springing forth anew, to attack my sunlit hillsides.

The most formidable enemy is the native Poison Oak, which
fortresses in almost impenetrable thickets of wrist-thick
vines, covering every direction. For these, I carefully
cut a swatch through the minefield, taking extreme care
not to become contaminated too badly, although casualties
are inevitable. At times, I use the chainsaw, in sheer
determined all-out frontal attacks; but most of the time
I stealthily tunnel to the commanding root, which is always
at least four or five inches thick, to kill the command
and control center, at its very core.

Note: Those who say you can spray glyphosate on poison oak
have no idea what they're up against, as this enemy is
so deeply entrenched on a hillside that napalm itself
wouldn't flush it all out, in a week of spraying from
helicopters. No. Only a determined single-minded attack
on the core supply line will work, sort of like what the
Persons attempted at the battle north of Plateae before
the Greeks retreated and regrouped at Plateae, for the
battle that arguably saved the Western civilized world
from utter destruction.

And, so goes my battle with the foreign and native
invaders, who are forever attempting to take over my
sun drenched hillsides.

[Oren]

On Fri, 31 May 2013 14:37:00 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 30 May 2013 21:27:33 -0700, DD_BobK wrote:
>
>>> Or, I wave $100/day to anyone that stands in the
>>> front parking lot at the Home Depot ...
>>
>> And break the law?
>
>I don't know if it's legal or not, but police cruisers
>drive by every single day. They can't help but see dozens
>of these guys standing in the Home Depot parking lot, day
>in and day out.

Drive up, exit, and yell "Federales! HALT in the name of the law!".

The crooks run. Hire the guy still standing and needing work.

It is really simple foggy math.

[denni...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, May 26, 2013 3:37:12 PM UTC-4, Danny D wrote:
> My question: Not owning a pickup truck, is there a hand tool for
> moving brush piles en masse a hundred feet once on the roadway?

It's called a wheelbarrow.

[chaniarts]

removing groundcover sometimes leads to massive erosion problems.

[Danny D]

On Fri, 31 May 2013 12:00:42 -0700, Oren wrote:

> Drive up, exit, and yell "Federales! HALT in the name of the law!".
> The crooks run. Hire the guy still standing and needing work.
> It is really simple foggy math.

Your approach is called the Federale Transform approach.
The guys who run? They're called the Federales Series.

[Danny D]

On Fri, 31 May 2013 12:47:17 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

> removing groundcover sometimes leads to massive erosion problems.

Bummer that nobody brought this up until now.

If that's the case, I perhaps should have followed this suggestion:
"bundle the pulled plants to create 8- to 12-inch wattles that
can besecured to slopes to prevent erosion."
http://www.cal-ipc.org/ip/management/wwh/pdf/19633.pdf

Paradoxically, these pests were originally planted to
*prevent* erosion:
http://extension.oregonstate.edu/catalog/pdf/pnw/pnw103.pdf

Unfortunately, all parts of the plant are poisonous:
http://wiki.bugwood.org/Cytisus_scoparius

And, the CDFA says they're a Class C pest, which means they're:
“troublesome, aggressive, intrusive, detrimental, or destructive
...and difficult to control or eradicate.”
http://californiarangeland.ucdavis.edu/Publications%20pdf/8049%20Brooms%20in%20Calif.pdf


Here is how I removed the scotch broom in the winter season:

1. The task was to weed about an acre of these weeds:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/11912157/img/11912157.jpg

2. I first got below the weed on the hillside & grasped low:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11912158/img/11912158.jpg

3. Then I pulled DOWNWARD with all my strength, always downhill:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11912159/img/11912159.jpg

4. With the ground saturated by rain, the weeds came out:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11912160/img/11912160.jpg

5. As predicted, the Spanish Broom was the hardest to pull:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11912161/img/11912161.jpg

6. Some of the plant roots were as thick as a fat thumb:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/11912162/img/11912162.jpg

7. However most of the thousand of plants pulled had thin roots:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11912163/img/11912163.jpg

8. And now the muddy hillside is devoid of the weed plants:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11912164/img/11912164.jpg

[Danny D]

On Fri, 31 May 2013 12:22:03 -0700, dennisgauge wrote:

> It's called a wheelbarrow.

Hmmm... looking at this picture of just one of many collection
points, would *you* use a wheelbarrow on that tangled mess?
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13174517/img/13174517.jpg

The wheelbarrow *did* come in handy though, near the end,
when all that was left are these gnarly bits and pieces:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/13174109/img/13174109.jpg

[DD_BobK]

DADD-


I assume you don't know the meaning of

non sequitur

[DD_BobK]

On May 31, 4:08 pm, Danny D <Dan...@example.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 31 May 2013 12:47:17 -0700, chaniarts wrote:
> > removing groundcover sometimes leads to massive erosion problems.
>
> Bummer that nobody brought this up until now.
>
> If that's the case, I perhaps should have followed this suggestion:
>  "bundle the pulled plants to create 8- to 12-inch wattles that
>  can besecured to slopes to prevent erosion."
>  http://www.cal-ipc.org/ip/management/wwh/pdf/19633.pdf
>
> Paradoxically, these pests were originally planted to
> *prevent* erosion:
>  http://extension.oregonstate.edu/catalog/pdf/pnw/pnw103.pdf
>
> Unfortunately, all parts of the plant are poisonous:
>  http://wiki.bugwood.org/Cytisus_scoparius
>
> And, the CDFA says they're a Class C pest, which means they're:
> “troublesome, aggressive, intrusive, detrimental, or destructive

> ...and difficult to control or eradicate.”http://californiarangeland.ucdavis.edu/Publications%20pdf/8049%20Broo...

>
> Here is how I removed the scotch broom in the winter season:
>
> 1. The task was to weed about an acre of these weeds:http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/11912157/img/11912157.jpg
>
> 2. I first got below the weed on the hillside & grasped low:http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11912158/img/11912158.jpg
>
> 3. Then I pulled DOWNWARD with all my strength, always downhill:http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11912159/img/11912159.jpg
>
> 4. With the ground saturated by rain, the weeds came out:http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11912160/img/11912160.jpg
>
> 5. As predicted, the Spanish Broom was the hardest to pull:http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11912161/img/11912161.jpg
>
> 6. Some of the plant roots were as thick as a fat thumb:http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/11912162/img/11912162.jpg
>
> 7. However most of the thousand of plants pulled had thin roots:http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11912163/img/11912163.jpg
>
> 8. And now the muddy hillside is devoid of the weed plants:http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11912164/img/11912164.jpg

>>>Bummer that nobody brought this up until now. <<

The real bummer?
In all your OCD-ness.... you often miss the forest. :(
It's really too bad that accounting training & experience translates
so poorly to other endeavors. :(

My apologies if I missed the rational that motivated messing with
plants that generated all this debris....
seems like a grout scraping activity.