What extension cord is needed for electric fry pan?

[Thomas]

I want to buy an electric fry pan to make potato pancakes outside on my porch.
They really stink up my kitchen using my gas stove.
Looking at either 1500 watt Presto or 1200 Elite gourmet. They both have short cords, 2 feet give or take. I need about 20 feet more. 120v with 15 amp breakers. Old house. Any suggestions? I will take a do not do that too.

[Scott Lurndal]

Thay have short cords for a reason. 1500w draws 12.5 amps and there
are other physical safety reasons for keeping the cord short. 12.5 amps is
slightly over 80% of a 15A branch circuit, which is the maximum
recommended continuous capacity for a 15a ckt.

This is a dedicated potato pancake maker, highly recommended:

https://www.lefsetime.com/store/Bethany-Heritage-Lefse-Grill-Teflon.html

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <1573958f-8ab4-4249...@googlegroups.com>,
cano...@gmail.com says...

> want to buy an electric fry pan to make potato pancakes outside on my porch.
> They really stink up my kitchen using my gas stove.
> Looking at either 1500 watt Presto or 1200 Elite gourmet. They both have short cords, 2 feet give or take. I need about 20 feet more. 120v with 15 amp breakers. Old house. Any suggestions? I will take a do not do that too.
>
>

I would use a 12 gauge drop cord of around 20 to 25 feet. They may not
make them that long,but some window AC units have heavy duty cords that
you may want to look at. You will probably hear some people say don't
do it. However think of it that you already have either # 12 or
probably # 14 wire in the wall already going to the socket. Just be
sure the plugs and sockets are in good shape.

[Dean Hoffman]

Lowes has a 12-3 cord 25 feet long.
<https://www.lowes.com/pd/Utilitech-Pro-25-ft-12-3-3-Prong-Outdoor-SJTW-Heavy-Duty-Lighted-Extension-Cord/3129241>

[trader_4]

14 gauge is what code requires for a 15A branch circuit. You;re going another 20 ft.
14 gauge cord works for me. If there is some problem, like flickering lights, smoke
coming out of the walls, etc, then that should be addressed for it's own sake.

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 13:21:50 -0700 (PDT), Thomas <cano...@gmail.com>
wrote:

The "old house" worries me more than the electrical maths.
How old ?
Unless you cook your pancakes at MAX
for a big crowd < ie burn them >
you should be OK ...

Beware of the assumption that a "block heater" cord
is heavy-duty - they often have weak wire and slightly
better insulation.

Look at the wire-size - it'a embossed into the insulation -

10 gauge 10/3 10/4 nice & heavy - like small generator cord
12 gauge 12/3 a heavy duty cord
14 gauge 14/3 an average extrension cord
16 gauge 16/3 light duty extension cord

German apple pancakes with a drizzle of
maple syrup .. please & thanks.

John T.

[Marilyn Manson]

On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 4:21:54 PM UTC-4, Thomas wrote:

The best solution is to install a 20A dedicated GFCI protected circuit on the porch,
within 2 feet of where you want to cook my...errr...umm...I mean your breakfast.

The next alternative is to use a minimum 12g extension cord, at the shortest length
you need. Stay safe, don't trip on the cord, and check it for warmth every now and
then. If it's getting warm, unplug it and go to a diner.

Now this assumes that you aren't running much (if anything) else on the circuit while
you are cooking. You are approaching the limit of a 15A circuit. While it may not pop
immediately, prolonged use at near-limits can cause a breaker to trip via it's thermal
protection circuitry.

Obviously, this unit is supposed to work on a standard kitchen receptacle, which will
be at least 15A, although 20A is better. The 12g extension cord simply ensures a lower
voltage drop than a 14g cord would.

One of the reasons for short cords on appliances is because the manufacturer "assumes"
that any kitchen is up to current code, with receptacles no more than 24" apart. That keeps
your cords from running all over the place and eliminates the need for - wait for it - extension
cords.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <9cf1dd27-e421-4a54...@googlegroups.com>,
tra...@optonline.net says...

>
> 14 gauge is what code requires for a 15A branch circuit. You;re going another 20 ft.
> 14 gauge cord works for me. If there is some problem, like flickering lights, smoke
> coming out of the walls, etc, then that should be addressed for it's own sake.
>
>
>

The 14 is probably fine. I just tend to over do it. Then with all the
stuff comming over from China you never know what you may get. There
has been a lot of copper covered aluminum wire that is really hard
telling what in terms of copper wire.

Seems a few years back there was some kind of stink about China and
Lowes or Home Depot drop cords not being like they should.

[Thomas Argo]

Thanks for all the super quick replies. Much appreciated.

[Clare Snyder]

On Tue, 05 Oct 2021 20:30:54 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

14 gauge or your 1500 will be a 1200 with the cord being the other
300 - - -

[Ed Pawlowski]

That could be good. Wrap the cord around the maple syrup to warm it up.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <8187J.168688$Kv2....@fx47.iad>, e...@snet.xxx says...

> > https://www.lefsetime.com/store/Bethany-Heritage-Lefse-Grill-Teflon.html
> > 14 gauge or your 1500 will be a 1200 with the cord being the other
> > 300 - - -
> >
>
> That could be good. Wrap the cord around the maple syrup to warm it up.
>
>

Anoher thing being overlooked is that no matter how long the cord is
,strech it out and do not leave any of it coiled up. If the cord is not
really up to the task it may overheat and melt the insulation.

[bud--]

On 10/5/2021 2:30 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Thomas <cano...@gmail.com> writes:
>> I want to buy an electric fry pan to make potato pancakes outside on my porch.
>> They really stink up my kitchen using my gas stove.
>> Looking at either 1500 watt Presto or 1200 Elite gourmet. They both have short cords, 2 feet give or take. I need about 20 feet more. 120v with 15 amp breakers. Old house. Any suggestions? I will take a do not do that too.
>
> Thay have short cords for a reason. 1500w draws 12.5 amps and there
> are other physical safety reasons for keeping the cord short. 12.5 amps is
> slightly over 80% of a 15A branch circuit, which is the maximum
> recommended continuous capacity for a 15a ckt.

Is an electric fry pan a "continuous" load (3 or more hours)?

[bud--]

But that is for branch circuits.

Cords use different rules. With 2 current carrying conductors (not
including ground) #14 is rated 18A. With 3 or more conductors the rating
is 15A.

I agree #14 should work.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 5 Oct 2021 18:00:54 -0400, Ralph Mowery

<rmow...@charter.net> wrote:

>In article <9cf1dd27-e421-4a54...@googlegroups.com>,
>tra...@optonline.net says...
>>
>> 14 gauge is what code requires for a 15A branch circuit. You;re going another 20 ft.
>> 14 gauge cord works for me. If there is some problem, like flickering lights, smoke
>> coming out of the walls, etc, then that should be addressed for it's own sake.
>>
>>
>>
>
>The 14 is probably fine.

I agree. If there is any problem it's likely to be where the extension
cord plugs in, or the pan plugs into it. Feel those places after 20
minutes and see if they are warmer than elewhere, though if the
receptacle and the cord are less than 10 years old, I doubt there is any
problem.

BTW, how long do you plan to be frying? I can't imagine it's long, or
long enough for this to be a problem with 14 gauge.

About 1980, I was using a 1500 watt electric heater in my bedroom and I
awoke to find a 2" fire burning the hard rubber plug on the heater, but
this was in a 1930 building. The receptacle was 50 years old and was
plenty loose. Even then it had worked for days with no problem, and I
suppose I bent the plugs prongs and made it fit tighter and it was fine
after that. The plug didn't get warmer than the room was.

[gfre...@aol.com]

What he said ;)

They use short cords so you don't have cord clutter on the kitchen
counter. A wad of cord is more likely to be laying next to another
hot appliance.
A 14ga extension cord should be plenty at 25 feet. It will "eat" most
of a 15a circuit tho so you can't have much else on that circuit.
If it is easy I would string another circuit out there but for most
folks, it isn't easy.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Tue, 05 Oct 2021 22:09:06 -0400, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>
wrote:

With a 25' 16 ga cord it would actually drop about 1/8 of that.
25' of #16 stranded @ 12.5a is 3.1v drop or about 38 watts.
It is still overloading the cord tho.

I also bet that is actually 1440 watts rounded up to 1500 or it would
never get listed with a 5-15 cord cap. That is sort of like those
"1800" watt hair dryers that are also 1440w when you put the clamp on
them. The marketing folks must use the locked rotor current of the
motor along with the element if it was on 126v Max allowable under
ANSI C84.1-2016

[angelica...@yahoo.com]

A little pricey, though.

We've been using an electric skillet plugged in to an "appliance" extension
cord (20A circuit) while waiting for the flooring to be installed in our
kitchen. When the project was less far along, I dragged the electric
skillet outside and used a 25-foot extension cord (again, a 20A) circuit.

IMO, Thomas needs two things:

Better ventilation in his kitchen.
A GFCI 20A circuit outdoors.

Cindy Hamilton

[Bod]

In the UK you can draw up to 3KW from any single socket in a dwelling.
(230 volts).
Are you all on 110v?

[Bod]

Just add: 3KW equates to 12.5 amps.

[Buck Fiden]

Sounds like a good excuse to get a new Weber gas grill and a cast iron griddle.

[Dean Hoffman]

Dedicated circuits for stoves and clothes dryers are 220. There might be a couple other
things. But most of the outlets in a home will be 110. Bud and Fretwell can give you more details
as far as the code requirements for three wires vs. four, code changes etc.
It seems silly at first blush but requirements for livestock buildings are more stringent in some
ways than for houses.

[Bod]

Ok, thanks for that.

[trader_4]

On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 5:38:31 PM UTC-4, Marilyn Manson wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 4:21:54 PM UTC-4, Thomas wrote:
> > I want to buy an electric fry pan to make potato pancakes outside on my porch.
> > They really stink up my kitchen using my gas stove.
> > Looking at either 1500 watt Presto or 1200 Elite gourmet. They both have short cords, 2 feet give or take. I need about 20 feet more. 120v with 15 amp breakers. Old house. Any suggestions? I will take a do not do that too.
> The best solution is to install a 20A dedicated GFCI protected circuit on the porch,
> within 2 feet of where you want to cook my...errr...umm...I mean your breakfast.
>
> The next alternative is to use a minimum 12g extension cord, at the shortest length
> you need. Stay safe, don't trip on the cord, and check it for warmth every now and
> then. If it's getting warm, unplug it and go to a diner.
>
> Now this assumes that you aren't running much (if anything) else on the circuit while
> you are cooking. You are approaching the limit of a 15A circuit. While it may not pop
> immediately, prolonged use at near-limits can cause a breaker to trip via it's thermal
> protection circuitry.
>
> Obviously, this unit is supposed to work on a standard kitchen receptacle, which will
> be at least 15A, although 20A is better. The 12g extension cord simply ensures a lower
> voltage drop than a 14g cord would.
>

And what is your calculation on the voltage drop here for 20 ft of 12 gauge
vs 14 gauge?

[Dean Hoffman]

There's a voltage drop calculator here if you're interested.
<http://www.nooutage.com/vdrop.htm>

[trader_4]

On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 1:41:08 AM UTC-4, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Oct 2021 22:09:06 -0400, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>
> wrote:
> >On Tue, 05 Oct 2021 20:30:54 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Thomas <cano...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>I want to buy an electric fry pan to make potato pancakes outside on my porch.
> >>>They really stink up my kitchen using my gas stove.
> >>>Looking at either 1500 watt Presto or 1200 Elite gourmet. They both have short cords, 2 feet give or take. I need about 20 feet more. 120v with 15 amp breakers. Old house. Any suggestions? I will take a do not do that too.
> >>
> >>Thay have short cords for a reason. 1500w draws 12.5 amps and there
> >>are other physical safety reasons for keeping the cord short. 12.5 amps is
> >>slightly over 80% of a 15A branch circuit, which is the maximum
> >>recommended continuous capacity for a 15a ckt.
> >>
> >>This is a dedicated potato pancake maker, highly recommended:
> >>
> >>https://www.lefsetime.com/store/Bethany-Heritage-Lefse-Grill-Teflon.html
> > 14 gauge or your 1500 will be a 1200 with the cord being the other
> >300 - - -
> With a 25' 16 ga cord it would actually drop about 1/8 of that.
> 25' of #16 stranded @ 12.5a is 3.1v drop or about 38 watts.
> It is still overloading the cord tho.
>

How did you come up with that number? I'm seeing half that voltage drop
for a full 15A load.

[Marilyn Manson]

Any of the online calculators will give you that number. I'm sure you've already
done that, so no need for me to repeat the results.

Bottom line: My statement is accurate - "The 12g extension cord simply ensures

a lower voltage drop than a 14g cord would."

Surely, you aren't disputing that statement, are you?

[bud--]

On 10/5/2021 11:19 PM, bud-- wrote:
> On 10/5/2021 2:30 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Thomas <cano...@gmail.com> writes:
>>> I want to buy an electric fry pan to make potato pancakes outside on
>>> my porch.
>>> They really stink up my kitchen using my gas stove.
>>> Looking at either 1500 watt Presto or 1200 Elite gourmet. They both
>>> have short cords, 2 feet give or take. I need about 20 feet more.
>>> 120v with 15 amp breakers. Old house.  Any suggestions? I will take a
>>> do not do that too.
>>
>> Thay have short cords for a reason.   1500w draws 12.5 amps and there
>> are other physical safety reasons for keeping the cord short.   12.5
>> amps is
>> slightly over 80% of a 15A branch circuit, which is the maximum
>> recommended continuous capacity for a 15a ckt.
>
> Is an electric fry pan a "continuous" load (3 or more hours)?
>

By coincidence this came up in another newsgroup yesterday:
The general rule is if a load is considered "continuous" (over 3 hours)
the circuit is derated to 80%. But if there are 2 or more receptacles
(duples = 2) the load can only be 80% of the rating for the receptacle
even if not continuous (IMHO a stupid rule, and unenforceable). UL does
not agree and may, for instance, put a 15A plug on something that uses
over 12A (but not "continuous").
An even dumber NEC rule allows a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit if
there is only one receptacle on the circuit.

[Bob F]

I have a 1500 Watt heater that felt like its output doubled when I
replaced the wire feeding its socket from 14 to 12g.

[bud--]

On 10/6/2021 5:23 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> It seems silly at first blush but requirements for livestock buildings are more stringent in some
> ways than for houses.
>

Requirements for grounding/earthing/bonding are tighter (more like a
swimming pool). The heathen pigs and especially cows walk around with no
shoes. (Horses have shoes, but that is probably worse.) And cows have a
much longer wheelbase than people. If there is a different earth
potential between feet cows may not enter a building. "Stray voltage"
can also greatly decrease milk production.

A major cause of "stray voltage", not covered by the NEC, appears to be
connection of the distribution voltage neutral to the secondary neutral
and transformer earthing. The secondary neutral is bonded the the farm
"ground" system. Particularly if the distribution neutral is not real
good that puts distribution neutral current into the farm earthing
system. Separating the secondary neutral from the primary neutral likely
solves the problem, but that can cause transformer damage from lightning.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <qlf7J.490024$QHsf...@fx12.ams1>, bodr...@yahoo.co.uk
says...

>
> In the UK you can draw up to 3KW from any single socket in a dwelling.
> (230 volts).
> Are you all on 110v?
>
>
>

In the US you will see people referring to the common sockets from 110,
115,120 and 125 volts. The voltage has gone up over the years. The
larger appliances such as stoves and dryers will be double that,
220,230, 240. Not sure if you will see 250 listed anywhere as of now.
Just about all small current use devices in the house such as portable
tools, hair dryers,bread toasters, coffee pots,refrigerators,and TV sets
will be 120 volts. Even what I call a bathroom heater, the portable
heaters rated for around 1500 watts run on 120 volts.

So most of the 120 volt circuits in the house is wired with # 14 wire
and breaker/fuses at 15 amps. There may be a few circuits in the house
that are wired with # 12 wire and protected with 20 amps. The wires
leave the breaker box which will have a lot of breakers in it. Then
there may be only one or there may be several sockets in the house wired
to a single breaker.

The 240 volt circuits are usually reserved for high load mostly fixed
loads like stoves, cloths dryers, main heat and cooling units, and water
heaters. Some of those may not even plug in but wired direct like my
heat pump and water heater. You might say those are major units to
replace unlike a stove or dryer where you can just remove the old one
and sit a new one in its place. There will usually be only one device
per 240 volt breaker.

There are not usually any fuses or breakers at the plug of the devices
or at the recepticals. There are few exceptions but most devices have
the fuses mounted on or in them.

Most overhead lights are wired with # 14 and may power several rooms or
parts of rooms. They mostly operate on 120 volts.

I am not sure , but thinking there may be a difference in the wire
numbers and physical size and current rating between the US and other
countries. US wires for the most part are # 12 for 20 amps, # 14 for 15
amps. Many drop cords are # 16 but you may find a few small ones ,
especially the 2 wire types for lamps of # 18. You can buy drop cords of
about any size from # 18 to # 10 if you look hard enough and about any
length from 4 feet to 100 feet are common.

[Marilyn Manson]

And of course you can build your own with readily available parts. That's what
I did for my #10 generator cord set so I don't have to move my generator from
it's protected storage location during a power outage.

It's protected from the weather and somewhat protected from theft. If they
want it, they'll figure out how to get it out, I'm sure, but they'll have to work
at it. It won't be a simple grab-and-go.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <44d62146-b5d1-4545...@googlegroups.com>,
tra...@optonline.net says...

> >>https://www.lefsetime.com/store/Bethany-Heritage-Lefse-Grill-Teflon.html
> > > 14 gauge or your 1500 will be a 1200 with the cord being the other
> > >300 - - -
> > With a 25' 16 ga cord it would actually drop about 1/8 of that.
> > 25' of #16 stranded @ 12.5a is 3.1v drop or about 38 watts.
> > It is still overloading the cord tho.
> >
>
> How did you come up with that number? I'm seeing half that voltage drop
> for a full 15A load.
>
>

I did not look at the voltage charts, but as you are seeing half the
drop, did you allow for the drop in both of the wires ? The hot wire
going out and the neutral comming back ?
So a 25 foot drop cord would need to be thought as one wire that is 50
feet long ?

Often a common mistake.

[Bod]

Ok, thanks for the info.

[trader_4]

Never mind, I was seeing half because I used 25 ft, but there are two
wires, so the resistance length is 50 ft.

[trader_4]

Thanks, that's a handy tool to have. So with a 20 ft 14 gauge cord and a full 15A,
you have a drop of 3.2 volts, with 12 gauge it's 2 volts. The difference is negligible,
which was my point.

[Marilyn Manson]

If you had a point to make, why didn't you just make it? You are not usually shy
about making your points known.

Bottom line is that "The 12g extension cord simply ensures a lower voltage drop than
a 14g cord would", which your calculations verify.

I'm not quite sure you keep pushing back on that fact, but feel free.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Before digital calculators and newsgroups, we just plugged it in and
made pancakes if the fuse did not blow. Life was simple a few years ago.

[Marilyn Manson]

Or we kept a penny on top of the fuse box so we could get through breakfast. ;-)

[Mark Lloyd]

On 10/5/21 3:39 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

[snip]

> I would use a 12 gauge drop cord of around 20 to 25 feet. They may not
> make them that long,but some window AC units have heavy duty cords that
> you may want to look at. You will probably hear some people say don't
> do it. However think of it that you already have either # 12 or
> probably # 14 wire in the wall already going to the socket. Just be
> sure the plugs and sockets are in good shape.

I knew someone who was operating a 1500W electric heater on a 16-guage
extension cord (it was labeled for up to 1625W IIRC), but only for a few
minutes as the cord was getting hot and the insulation soft.

--
80 days until the winter celebration (Saturday, December 25, 2021
12:00:00 AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"We need a new cosmology. New Gods. New Sacraments. Another drink."
[Patti Smith]

[Thomas]

On Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 7:07:10 AM UTC-4, Buck Fiden wrote:

> Sounds like a good excuse to get a new Weber gas grill and a cast iron griddle.

That was it. Reading this now after just frying some on my Charbroil grill using my
Cuisinart crepe pan. I need to buy nothing.
Happy.

[gfre...@aol.com]

Nominally 120v. The effective max on a 15a is 1440w and a 20 is 1920w
but marketeers use a lot of conjecture to puff up those numbers. They
get their bogus rating by inflating the available voltage to the max
allowed at the service point and that is unrealistic at the point of
use, even if the PoCo did it.

[gfre...@aol.com]

The math is a little different on a ring circuit since there is a
parallel path.

[gfre...@aol.com]

It is a voltage drop calculator based on NEC table 8. Did you account
for both ways?
Table 8 assumes 75c
If I temperature compensate for 80F, 12.5a is it is 2.1v for 20 feet
(not 25) at 80f (not 75c)

That calculator is part of a suite of tools developed for Installation
Planning Reps at IBM
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/INFO.ZIP

Use INFO.BAT

It only runs under DOS after W/XP but DOSBOX works.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 08:15:36 -0600, bud-- <nu...@void.com> wrote:

>An even dumber NEC rule allows a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit if
>there is only one receptacle on the circuit.

That is for 20a circuits, not 15. You can have multiple 15a
receptacles on a 20a circuit but you can never have a 20a receptacle
on a 15a circuit. (legally)

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 08:15:36 -0600, bud-- <nu...@void.com> wrote:

>The general rule is if a load is considered "continuous" (over 3 hours)
>the circuit is derated to 80%. But if there are 2 or more receptacles
>(duples = 2) the load can only be 80% of the rating for the receptacle
>even if not continuous (IMHO a stupid rule, and unenforceable)

It is enforced in 240.4(D) where a 15 a breaker is required on 14ga
wire but 14ga wire can carry 20a.

[bud--]

On 10/6/2021 8:32 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> In article <qlf7J.490024$QHsf...@fx12.ams1>, bodr...@yahoo.co.uk
> says...
>>
>> In the UK you can draw up to 3KW from any single socket in a dwelling.
>> (230 volts).
>> Are you all on 110v?
>
> In the US you will see people referring to the common sockets from 110,
> 115,120 and 125 volts. The voltage has gone up over the years. The
> larger appliances such as stoves and dryers will be double that,
> 220,230, 240. Not sure if you will see 250 listed anywhere as of now.
> Just about all small current use devices in the house such as portable
> tools, hair dryers,bread toasters, coffee pots,refrigerators,and TV sets
> will be 120 volts. Even what I call a bathroom heater, the portable
> heaters rated for around 1500 watts run on 120 volts.

Long ago I used to see 117V. Never figured out where that came from.

For calculations the NEC says to use 120 and 240V.

>
> So most of the 120 volt circuits in the house is wired with # 14 wire
> and breaker/fuses at 15 amps. There may be a few circuits in the house
> that are wired with # 12 wire and protected with 20 amps.

For may years the NEC has required (for new wiring) 20A for kitchen
countertop (+ some other), laundry, bathroom.

> The wires
> leave the breaker box which will have a lot of breakers in it. Then
> there may be only one or there may be several sockets in the house wired
> to a single breaker.
>
> The 240 volt circuits are usually reserved for high load mostly fixed
> loads like stoves, cloths dryers, main heat and cooling units, and water
> heaters. Some of those may not even plug in but wired direct like my
> heat pump and water heater. You might say those are major units to
> replace unlike a stove or dryer where you can just remove the old one
> and sit a new one in its place. There will usually be only one device
> per 240 volt breaker.
>
> There are not usually any fuses or breakers at the plug of the devices
> or at the recepticals. There are few exceptions but most devices have
> the fuses mounted on or in them.

In the UK "ring" circuits at 32A, 230V are common. For loads where we
use 120V the current can be half, with smaller wire. For protection from
higher source current and smaller wire, plugs for ring circuits have a fuse.

[bud--]

That would be eminently reasonable.

However
210.21-B-1 A single receptacle on a branch circuit shall be rated not
less than the branch circuit.
- A receptacle on a 15A branch circuit must be rated at least 15A. (20A
is at least 15A.)

210.19-A-2 conductors of branch circuits supplying more that one
receptacle ... shall have an ampacity of not less than the rating of the
branch circuit.
- If there are more than 2 receptacles rated 20A the branch circuit
conductors must be rated 20A That is effectively #12 for 20A receptacle.
This does NOT apply for a single receptacle.
Table 210.21-B-2 applies to 2 or more receptacles
Table 210.21-B-3 applies to 2 or more receptacles
Far as I have seen you can put a 50A SINGLE receptacle on a 15A circuit.
I believe there was a code change proposal on this that the panel in its
infinite wisdom rejected.

[bud--]

240.4-D is irrelevant. (For a 15A receptacle the wire is 14ga.)

What I said is that a 15A receptacle, (with 2 or more) can only have a
12A load connected even if the load is non-continuous. This is contrary
to the general rule that would allow a 15A non-continuous load.

What I said is the effect of 210.21-B-2
There was a code change proposal that would allow non-continuous loads
at 100% of the receptacle rating (15A non-continuous load on a 15A
circuit with more than one receptacle).
This proposal was also rejected.
I think, from the dim past, there were 3 arguments for:
1. the widely applied general rule is 80% only for continuous loads
2. critically - UL does NOT agree and will allow, for instance a 15A
plug in a non-continuous device rated over 12A.
3. (probably) the rule is not enforceable (because of 2, if no other reason)

[bud--]

I believe the math is the same.
A ring circuit allows smaller wire to be used, and I think(?) this
allowed the use of less copper after WW2.

(For those that haven't heard of them, ring circuits start at the panel,
route through the occupancy and return to the panel connecting to the
same source. There are 2 paths in parallel. This would be a NEC violation.)
(Ring circuits are 230V and from what I have read are 32A. That is way
more than 3kW, so 3kW must be a code limit that is applied. "Sockets"
can not be placed too near the ends of a ring since one parallel path is
much longer and the current doesn't split evenly enough.)

[Clare Snyder]

On Wed, 06 Oct 2021 00:32:17 -0400, micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com>
wrote:

>In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 5 Oct 2021 18:00:54 -0400, Ralph Mowery
><rmow...@charter.net> wrote:
>
>>In article <9cf1dd27-e421-4a54...@googlegroups.com>,
>>tra...@optonline.net says...
>>>
>>> 14 gauge is what code requires for a 15A branch circuit. You;re going another 20 ft.
>>> 14 gauge cord works for me. If there is some problem, like flickering lights, smoke
>>> coming out of the walls, etc, then that should be addressed for it's own sake.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>The 14 is probably fine.
>
>I agree. If there is any problem it's likely to be where the extension
>cord plugs in, or the pan plugs into it. Feel those places after 20
>minutes and see if they are warmer than elewhere, though if the
>receptacle and the cord are less than 10 years old, I doubt there is any
>problem.
>
>BTW, how long do you plan to be frying? I can't imagine it's long, or
>long enough for this to be a problem with 14 gauge.
>
>About 1980, I was using a 1500 watt electric heater in my bedroom and I
>awoke to find a 2" fire burning the hard rubber plug on the heater, but
>this was in a 1930 building. The receptacle was 50 years old and was
>plenty loose. Even then it had worked for days with no problem, and I
>suppose I bent the plugs prongs and made it fit tighter and it was fine
>after that. The plug didn't get warmer than the room was.
>
>> I just tend to over do it. Then with all the
>>stuff comming over from China you never know what you may get. There
>>has been a lot of copper covered aluminum wire that is really hard
>>telling what in terms of copper wire.
>>
>>Seems a few years back there was some kind of stink about China and
>>Lowes or Home Depot drop cords not being like they should.
Hot cords DO tend to stink - - -

[Clare Snyder]

Since a 20 amp 125 volt oulet accepts 15 amp plugs and they are more
"robust" allowing one 20 amp outet on a 15 amp circuit isn't
problematic if the circuit is protected by a 15 amp fuse or breaker.
If the device draws significantly over 15 amps the protection will
trip. A 15 amp PLUG on a 20 amp device is a different story - to a
point - the protection will still trip but it encouraged overloading
the 15 amp outlet - which itself is NOT designed to handle 20amps

[Clare Snyder]

UL and code are 2 separate issues.

UL is Underwriters Laboritories - they are concerned with liability.
Also a 15 amp plug can be used in a 20 amp outlet. The cord on the
device is designed to not be a safety issue at 15 amps.

[trader_4]

OK, since you insist, the obvious point is that since the voltage drop
difference between 12 gauge and 14 gauge over 20 feet is one volt,
a whopping 0.8%, which is negligible, your advice that at a minimum,
a 12 gauge cord is required was wrong:

"The best solution is to install a 20A dedicated GFCI protected circuit on the porch,
within 2 feet of where you want to cook my...errr...umm...I mean your breakfast.
The next alternative is to use a minimum 12g extension cord, at the shortest length
you need."

That isn't the next alternative, there is nothing wrong with a 14 gauge cord.
And since you want to get pedantic, by exactly who's standard
is the "best solution" to install a dedicated GFCI circuit on the porch within
2 ft of where you want to use the fry pan? Is that what you do? Install a
new circuit within two feet of some occasional appliance usage, instead
of using an extension cord? And even if they wanted to spend $500 or
maybe $1000 getting that done, why must it be "dedicated" to only the
fry pan? Happy now?

[Marilyn Manson]

True. Nothing wrong with 14g, but 12g is better.

> And since you want to get pedantic, by exactly who's standard
> is the "best solution" to install a dedicated GFCI circuit on the porch within
> 2 ft of where you want to use the fry pan?

Mine.

> Is that what you do? Install a new circuit within two feet of some occasional
> appliance usage, instead of using an extension cord?

To a certain extent, yes. Over the years I have installed or extended numerous circuits
specifically to eliminate/reduce the use of extension cords. On my deck, under my deck,
on the side of the shed, in my shop, garage, basement, kitchen, hallway, etc. For me, the
sheer convenience of not having use an extension cord is worth the trouble.

Perfect example: When I bought my planer, I found that my garage circuit could not handle
the lights, planer and wet/dry vac. For short time I ran an extension cord from an exterior
receptacle to the dust collector. As soon as I had the time, I ran another circuit to the garage
for the *occasional* times that I use the planer. That install also allowed me to add a few extra
receptacles which eliminated the need for extensions cords in a number of other, more frequent
situations.

> And even if they wanted to spend $500 or maybe $1000 getting that done, ...

You sound like one of those infomercials showing the tangled hose or overloaded paper
plates. You don't the OP's situation and neither do I. Bringing cost into the discussion is
just a diversion.

> why must it be "dedicated" to only the fry pan?

By "dedicated" I mean not extending another circuit since the device in question may
approach the limits of an existing circuit. I did not mean "dedicated to the use of the
fry pan". Once it's installed, I'm sure that a receptacle on the OP's porch would be useful
for other devices besides making pancakes. My apologies if that was not clear to you.

> Happy now?

I tend to be happy most of the time. Nothing said in this group will change that.

[trader_4]

And 10g would be even "better" if you're concerned about a negligible 1 volt drop
and want to reduce that too. Do you have OCD or something?

> > And since you want to get pedantic, by exactly who's standard
> > is the "best solution" to install a dedicated GFCI circuit on the porch within
> > 2 ft of where you want to use the fry pan?
> Mine.
> > Is that what you do? Install a new circuit within two feet of some occasional
> > appliance usage, instead of using an extension cord?
> To a certain extent, yes.

Right, that explains a lot.

Over the years I have installed or extended numerous circuits
> specifically to eliminate/reduce the use of extension cords. On my deck, under my deck,
> on the side of the shed, in my shop, garage, basement, kitchen, hallway, etc. For me, the
> sheer convenience of not having use an extension cord is worth the trouble.
>
> Perfect example: When I bought my planer, I found that my garage circuit could not handle
> the lights, planer and wet/dry vac.

The OP doesn't have a planer, he has a 1200 or 1500W fry pan.

For short time I ran an extension cord from an exterior
> receptacle to the dust collector. As soon as I had the time, I ran another circuit to the garage
> for the *occasional* times that I use the planer. That install also allowed me to add a few extra
> receptacles which eliminated the need for extensions cords in a number of other, more frequent
> situations.
>
> > And even if they wanted to spend $500 or maybe $1000 getting that done, ...
>
> You sound like one of those infomercials showing the tangled hose or overloaded paper
> plates. You don't the OP's situation and neither do I.

If you don't know the situation, why did you tell him the best solution is to run
a new 20A circuit for occasional use of a fry pan?

Bringing cost into the discussion is
> just a diversion.

Right, because it makes your best solution look ridiculous.

> > why must it be "dedicated" to only the fry pan?
> By "dedicated" I mean not extending another circuit since the device in question may
> approach the limits of an existing circuit.

May approach? It's a freaking 1500W or 1200W fry pan! That's 12.5 A or 10A.
How is that approaching the limits of your proposed 20A new circuit? Following
your logic, because I occasionally use a power washer outside that uses most of the
capacity of the various circuits I plug it into, I should run new 20A dedicated circuits
all around the perimeter of the house and with only one receptacle on each? WTF?

[Marilyn Manson]

Good grief. It's looks like you are just looking for reasons to argue. All I did was address your
questions and you've twisted my comments in some weird attempt to prove me wrong.

Moving on.

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

>
>Good grief. It's looks like you are just looking for reasons to argue. All I did was address your
>questions and you've twisted my comments in some weird attempt to prove me wrong.
>Moving on.

It takes two to Tango to the Last Word Waltz. :-)
John T.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <fa054c6b-84d8-471a...@googlegroups.com>,
tra...@optonline.net says...

>
> May approach? It's a freaking 1500W or 1200W fry pan! That's 12.5 A or 10A.
> How is that approaching the limits of your proposed 20A new circuit? Following
> your logic, because I occasionally use a power washer outside that uses most of the
> capacity of the various circuits I plug it into, I should run new 20A dedicated circuits
> all around the perimeter of the house and with only one receptacle on each? WTF?
>
>
>
>

There sure has been a lot of discussion for a simple question. I don't
need to do all the calculations or anything else.

Chances are the house is wired with # 14 if on a 15 amp breaker, maybe 1
# 12 if on a 20 amp circuit which is doubtful.

So for 25 feet I would go with a # 12 drop cord as I like to slightly
over do things,but a # 14 should work fine.

All this assuming in the US and using US guage wires. Other countries
wire numbers are sometimes slightly different.

Either way you are spending less than $ 50 for what I take to be a
temporary setup. As the OP had to ask I assume they could not do the
wireing for receptical theirself. Probably cost over $ 200 labor just
to get an elecritcian out not counting the parts and if there is an
extra breaker slot in the service panel.

[Marilyn Manson]

Many years ago, when I was learning about different gauge extension cords, I
was asking the same questions. At the time, I was also learning about house
wiring, having just bought a mid-50's home that needed some serious electrical
upgrades.

If I had asked the same question as the OP about an extension cord, I could
certainly understand someone assuming that I could not do the wiring myself.
However, "could not do" and "could not learn to do" are very different things.
I learned and then I did. As I learned more, I did more. Not just how to do,
but what was *possible* to do.

Once the first question is asked and different options are offered, it's not
unreasonable to think that the OP might say to himself "Hmm...a receptacle
on the porch. That's not a bad idea. I wonder what it would take to make that
happen."

In my case, making that happen simply took a little research, some more
questions and some new tools. (Sweet!) Just because the OP asked about
extension cord size doesn't automatically make me think that he'll have to
pay someone to install a receptacle. I choose to think that he may want to learn
to do it himself or work with a friend to learn how to do it, etc. There are other
options than just calling an electrician.

Your point about a breaker slot being available is valid. However, there are often
ways to deal with that situation that don't require a panel upgrade - or even an
electrician.

Your comment about it being a "temporary situation" doesn't mean that it has to
be one. I can imagine the OP saying "Hmm...a receptacle on the porch. That
could mean a heater on the porch, a TV on the porch, a blender on the porch,
charging my phone on the porch, all without the need to drag out and put away
an extension cord every time. That would be nice."

I doubt that anyone (who doesn't just want to argue) would disagree that a receptacle
on the porch is better solution that an extension cord when you consider the convenience
that it adds. Even if the OP has to pay to have it done, there is something to be said for
paying for an upgrade that makes your life easier and/or more enjoyable. In other words,
I choose to not focus on just the use of the fry pan, but to offer a solution that not only
addresses the fry pan issue but also adds value above and beyond the immediate need.

[bud--]

So you don't see a problem putting a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit for
a window air conditioner (circuit has a single receptacle)?
So someone can look at the receptacle and get an air conditioner that
requires a 20A circuit?
(Then when the breaker trips they will figure out the 15A CB should have
been 20A?)
How about a 30A receptacle? I don't think that is prohibited either.

It is a stupid idea.
That is why g said "you can never have a 20a receptacle on a 15a circuit."
And why there was a code change proposal.
I agree with both.
But maybe in Canada....

Are you saying a 20A receptacle is more "robust"? A duplex 15A
receptacle is rated 20A total for the 2 halves. And the straps with
screws on both sides are rated 20A wire-through.

The NEC uses "120V" and "240V".

>> A 15 amp PLUG on a 20 amp device is a different story - to a
> point - the protection will still trip but it encouraged overloading
> the 15 amp outlet - which itself is NOT designed to handle 20amps
>

Of course no one was talking about that.

[bud--]

So you think it is not a problem if a UL listed device is likely to be
used in a way that violates the NEC?
Maybe that is true in Canada.

UL is concerned with safety.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <LtI7J.175668$Kv2.1...@fx47.iad>, nu...@void.com says...

>
> So you think it is not a problem if a UL listed device is likely to be
> used in a way that violates the NEC?
> Maybe that is true in Canada.
>
> UL is concerned with safety.
>
>

Not being a licensed electrician I may have it wrong.

My impression is that if something is UL listed it means they checked it
out to see if it is elecrtrically save when used like the instructions
tell you to.
That does not even mean it will actually work,just that it will not
catch fire or shock you , so to speak.

[bud--]

On 10/7/2021 2:31 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> In article <LtI7J.175668$Kv2.1...@fx47.iad>, nu...@void.com says...
>>
>> So you think it is not a problem if a UL listed device is likely to be
>> used in a way that violates the NEC?
>> Maybe that is true in Canada.
>>
>> UL is concerned with safety.
>>
>>
>
> Not being a licensed electrician I may have it wrong.

You may know as much as electricians.

>
> My impression is that if something is UL listed it means they checked it
> out to see if it is elecrtrically save when used like the instructions
> tell you to.
> That does not even mean it will actually work,just that it will not
> catch fire or shock you , so to speak.
>

I like adding "instructions".

Not practical to test if a TV works (rather than safe, fails safely).

For electrical power products - fuses, receptacles, switches, ... they
test if they work. I have the UL standard for garden variety wall
switches. There are several sets of thousands of different operations
with load.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <w9J7J.106856$g81....@fx33.iad>, nu...@void.com says...

>
> >
> > Not being a licensed electrician I may have it wrong.
>
> You may know as much as electricians.
>
>
>

I worked as an industrial electrician and instrument person. It is not
that I do not know how to solve most problems, but I never had to keep
up with the electrical code. Most work was either repairing, installing,
or finding out what was wrong with others installations. Small amount of
retrofit design work that an engineer checked over to see if it met the
code.
Worked on all most anything from 24 volt DC control circuits to 480 volt
3 phase at a couple of hundred amps, even a slight bit of some higher
voltage stuff,but not much. I just did not like working aound with
anything over 1000 volts. Most anything is good for insulation to about
that voltge, but above that you start getting into problems where the
insulation may or may not breakdown.

[Thomas]

Wow. I want to fry a few pancakes. My grill did the trick.
Glad I did not ask a bigger question. Thanks again for the replies. I did do popcorn for this event and burned nothing to the ground.

[Marilyn Manson]

Come Thanksgiving, make a bread based stuffing, with some cranberries, celery,
onions, spices, etc. Mix double what you need for Thanksgiving dinner, cook
it all and save half.

The next morning, take your waffle iron out on to the porch and plug it into
your extension cord or new receptacle and make Stuffing Waffles.

Your family and guests will thank you.

[Marilyn Manson]

I used work on megawatt transmitters with 15KV DC power supplies.

Sometimes we'd hunt for intermittent arcs by taking the panels off the
side of the transmitters, cheat the safety switches, turn the lights off
in the transmitter room and then, under the soft glow of the 18" vacuum
tubes, run the PS up to 25KV or even 30KV to get the transmitter to arc.

When newbies (of any rank) came to the station we'd hold a "safety
meeting" outside the transmitter room to show them why no one (of
any rank) was allowed in the transmitter room without a transmitter
tech.

We'd take one of the big oil filled capacitors, use the hipot to charge
it to 4 or 5 KV, then discharge it with a dead-man stick - after explaining
to them why a dead-man stick was called a dead-man stick. Sometimes
we'd get lucky and the metal rod would blow right out of the wooden
handle. That usually convinced them to stay out of our domain.

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

You gotta sign in to view this old one - electrical explosion when
racking a breaker in a metalclad :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_aDvGBgGq4

John T.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 22:10:43 -0600, bud-- <nu...@void.com> wrote:

I haven't looked at the ROP but I bet someone on CMP2 said look at

Table 210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings for Various Size
Circuits
15a Not over 15a

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 22:13:26 -0600, bud-- <nu...@void.com> wrote:

The point was that is a single load. You can plug in other stuff The
installer has no control over what the user might plug in so the 80%
safety factor is built into 240.4(D) where the circuit is derated to
80% by the breaker required.
I agree U/L has been sloppy about the plugs they allow occasionally,
assuming they were valid U/L listings but for the most part anything
with a 5-15 will be 1440 watts or less at 120v, no matter how it is
sold.
The "1800 watt" hair dryer is a good example. They pull 12a or less
and I tested a lot of them when I was looking at this.

[gfre...@aol.com]

I have heard of these but never actually saw one.
I noticed in New Zealand, even though they did go with 230v at 50hz,
they are wired just like we would recognize, except for the color
code.
If you leave an inspector in a hotel room with a screwdriver, they
will look ;-)

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/New%20Zealand/Wangatui/Panel%20board.jpg

Neutrals are black, the breaker with the blue handle is an RCD (GFCI)

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Thu, 07 Oct 2021 00:44:59 -0400, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>

A lot depends on the grade. If you get a commercial grade 5-15 the
contacts are as good as a 5-20 but if you are getting one of those 98
cent specials out of the barrel on the end cap, 15a might burn it up.
U/L doesn't guarantee it won't burn up, just that the fire is
contained in the device.

[Marilyn Manson]

Well, at least the guy pulled down his face protection just before
the boom. :-O

I'll bet that hurt. What do you think went wrong?

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 15:05:01 -0600, bud-- <nu...@void.com> wrote:

>That is why g said "you can never have a 20a receptacle on a 15a circuit."

I didn't say it. Table 210.21(B)(3) did.

[gfre...@aol.com]

I was in an inspector meeting with the guy who invented an electric
salt to chlorine pool generator. He said the testing process took
months and they kept asking for more to blow up. Basically they make
these things fail in every scenario they can think of and be sure it
fails "safely". (no shock potential, no fire that escapes the
enclosure)
He said they never tested to see if it actually made chlorine
effectively.

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

>> You gotta sign in to view this old one - electrical explosion when
>> racking a breaker in a metalclad :
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_aDvGBgGq4
>> John T.
>
>Well, at least the guy pulled down his face protection just before
>the boom. :-O
>I'll bet that hurt. What do you think went wrong?

It said that he was racking a breaker - don't know if it was
IN or OUT but I'm guessing OUT and some sort of
mechanical failure shorted things in behind where the
breaker stabs the bus. 14 or 28 kV is my guess.
All these metalclad breakers have mechanical interlocks
to prevent racking a CLOSED breaker. And usually some
other interlocks as well - like on the cubicle door.
Back-in-the-day we would switch in a ~ 1920's vintage
indoor "switchyard" < the cubicle doors were wood >
on 8 kV using a switchstick that was just a bit longer
than a baseball bat. .. another row of cubicles close behind
prevented use of a real switchstick ...
John T.

[Frank]

On 10/5/2021 11:22 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> In article <8187J.168688$Kv2....@fx47.iad>, e...@snet.xxx says...

>>> https://www.lefsetime.com/store/Bethany-Heritage-Lefse-Grill-Teflon.html
>>> 14 gauge or your 1500 will be a 1200 with the cord being the other
>>> 300 - - -
>>>
>>

>> That could be good. Wrap the cord around the maple syrup to warm it up.
>>
>>
>
> Anoher thing being overlooked is that no matter how long the cord is
> ,strech it out and do not leave any of it coiled up. If the cord is not
> really up to the task it may overheat and melt the insulation.
>
>

As a kid I recall seeing a bunch of stuff wired into one extension cord
in the living room of a friend and later they had a fire caused by it.

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

>>
>
>As a kid I recall seeing a bunch of stuff wired into one extension cord
>in the living room of a friend and later they had a fire caused by it.
>

Two of my favourite Christmas movies ! :-) :

https://www.huttonpowerandlight.com/blog/2019/december/4-electrical-safety-tips-for-the-holidays/

John T.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <e1avlghk6fmd40ods...@4ax.com>,
hub...@ccanoemail.ca says...

>
> You gotta sign in to view this old one - electrical explosion when
> racking a breaker in a metalclad :
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_aDvGBgGq4
>
>
>

I did not see it hapen but at work we had a similar accident on a
smaller scale. The electrician had the door closed and just turned on a
480 volt breaker rated for about 50 amps. Something internal arced and
destroied the load contol center. That was a set of breakers that have
doors about 18 inches each way. There are about 5 or 6 high and 10 feet
wide,so lots of breakers. The center is fed with 480 volts 3 phase 400
amp fuses in each leg.

Good thing that door was closed. No damage was done to the electrician
excpt his underware :-)

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <81d0mg9c73sqncd34...@4ax.com>,
hub...@ccanoemail.ca says...

>
> It said that he was racking a breaker - don't know if it was
> IN or OUT but I'm guessing OUT and some sort of
> mechanical failure shorted things in behind where the
> breaker stabs the bus. 14 or 28 kV is my guess.
> All these metalclad breakers have mechanical interlocks
> to prevent racking a CLOSED breaker. And usually some
> other interlocks as well - like on the cubicle door.
> Back-in-the-day we would switch in a ~ 1920's vintage
> indoor "switchyard" < the cubicle doors were wood >
> on 8 kV using a switchstick that was just a bit longer
> than a baseball bat. .. another row of cubicles close behind
> prevented use of a real switchstick ...
>
>

The cubicals should have mechanical interlocks to prevent opening or
closing a breaker with the door open. The interlocks can usually be
defeated so the door can be opened or closed. That may have been his
case.

[Marilyn Manson]

On the 15KV power supplies for our transmitters we had a 3-strike breaker
system. It was a combination breaker, mechanical timer and motor.

If something in the transmitter shorted, causing the PS breaker to
trip, the timer would rotate 1 position (strike 1), close a contact which
would power on a motor, which would drive a piston up to reset the
breaker and then drive the piston back down. If there were no other
shorts within 30 seconds the timer would reset to position 0.

A second short within that 30 seconds would repeat the process with
the timer rotating to position 2 (strike 2); close the motor contact, close
the breaker, etc. The timer would also start the 30 second count again.

No arc within 30 seconds, timer resets to position 0. If there is an arc, the
timer "strikes out" by rotating to position 3 where no motor contacts are
closed and the transmitter stays off.

If everything is working correctly, the switching equipment kicks in, telling the
standby transmitter's power supply, which is idling at 5KV, to increase power
to 15KV, switch the output from the dummy load to the tower and take over the
transmission.

While all that is happening, alarms are going off all over the station and the
transmitter techs are scrambling to get to the transmitter building and find
out what is wrong with the other transmitter.

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

When those door interlocks fail < they can > there is often
another mechanical interlock that trips the breaker and/or
prevents the crank insertion.
John T.

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

Overhead rural distribution power lines often have "reclosers"
< circuit breakers > out on the pole-tops that will 3-shot
to clear transient faults - the secondary re-close operations
are specifically set so they will also blow downstream fuses -
relay / fuse co-ordination it's called.
Underground is a different story altogether.
John T.

[Frank]

That is about what it looked like.

[bud--]

210.21(B)(3) says "when connected to a branch circuit supplying 2 or
more receptacles oar outlets...." If there is only 1 receptacle neither
210.21(B)(3) or table 210.21(B)(3) apply.
As I wrote, and you deleted, "Table 210.21-B-3 applies to 2 or more
receptacles"

But I agree it is a stupid idea (allowed by the NEC).

[bud--]

UL 20 (1991), the standard for wall switches, which I have, has
extensive testing. The testing includes
- 10,000 operations at rated voltage and current
- 10,000 operations at rated voltage and current with a power factor of
about 0.8 (inductive load)
- 10,000 operations with an incandescent light load (inrush greater than
rated current
The switches must survive intact and fully functional.

I don't really think that receptacles, if UL listed, have a less
rigorous testing and certainly can't fail the tests with a "fire
contained in the device".

Not to say I am fond of cheap receptacles.

[bud--]

210.21(B)(3) says "when connected to a branch circuit supplying 2 or

more receptacles or outlets...." If there is only 1 receptacle neither

210.21(B)(3) or table 210.21(B)(3) apply.

Not likely the panel would point to a non-applicable table. I sorta
remember the CMP said 'this is the way we want it'.

(The proposal was at least 10 years ago.)

[bud--]

I don't believe UL is sloppy. The general restriction, scattered through
the code, is that derating to 80% is applied when the load is continuous
(3 hr or more). As far as I know UL follows that. The NEC does not
follow that in 210.21-B-2. Frying pans are not likely to be operated
full power for over 3 hr unless you are using them in an aluminum foundry.

The NEC restriction is unenforceable. If YOU had a (noncontinuous)
device with a 15A plug that ran at 13A would you be careful to only plug
it into a 20A receptacle, or a 15A receceptacle that is the only one on
the circuit (as required by the NEC)? No one else would.
And the NEC can't prevent me from plugging in 6 - 1400W space heaters on
a single 15A circuit. Oops that would be unsafe. I would put them on a
20A circuit.

240.4-D (max 15A breaker for #14) is only relevant for 'modern'
insulation. At least 2/3 of the wire in my house is TW or NM where 4-D
is not relevant. And I believe a major basis for the 80% rule is that
breakers (with a thermal trip) in an enclosed panel with other beakers
can not be relied on to not trip if subjected to a continuous load. I am
too lay to look it up, but I think the 80% rule does not apply if the
breaker is rated for continuous, which electronic trip probably is.

[bud--]

Racking breakers (or motor starter units) is supposed to be one of the
most dangerous operations. And dangerous on 480V.

I think it was at least 20 years ago OSHA discovered arc-flash and
required worker protection. The NEC has added labeling in at least 2
sections. The labels give the energy that a worker can be exposed to in
an 'event'. That guides what protection a worker needs. One (safe)
racking operation had the electrician in an "arc-flash suit", with an
electrician at the room door with a radio to another electrician at the
source breaker to turn it off. (If there was an event that would
probably be too late.) A lower levels of exposure 'natural fiber'
clothes are worn instead of synthetic. Cotton may burn but it doesn't
melt onto your skin like polyester. The smartest electrician I have met
was very seriously injured in an arc-flash event. He was only trying to
measure motor current with a clamp-on ammeter in a motor control center.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <3k_7J.26197$nh7....@fx22.iad>, nu...@void.com says...

>
> Racking breakers (or motor starter units) is supposed to be one of the
> most dangerous operations. And dangerous on 480V.
>
> I think it was at least 20 years ago OSHA discovered arc-flash and
> required worker protection. The NEC has added labeling in at least 2
> sections. The labels give the energy that a worker can be exposed to in
> an 'event'. That guides what protection a worker needs. One (safe)
> racking operation had the electrician in an "arc-flash suit", with an
> electrician at the room door with a radio to another electrician at the
> source breaker to turn it off. (If there was an event that would
> probably be too late.) A lower levels of exposure 'natural fiber'
> clothes are worn instead of synthetic. Cotton may burn but it doesn't
> melt onto your skin like polyester. The smartest electrician I have met
> was very seriously injured in an arc-flash event. He was only trying to
> measure motor current with a clamp-on ammeter in a motor control center.
>
>

I don't recll the year,but where I worked there was a big push for the
arc-flash safety. Some say it was because a company came out with a
ground fault type breaker and wanted to push it as a safety standard but
companies did not want to spend the money to change them out. Before
those standards there was basically no unusual safety rules plant wide.
Just everyone in the plant wore safety glasses and if in noisey areas
ear protection.

Anyway it was some time after 1990 we had engineers to come in and lable
all the big motor control centers with different ratings of arc-flash.
Then we had to wear clothing and protective equipment depending on how
it was rated. Minimum was all cotton cloths. For the above reason. By
the way we produced polyseter from basic chemicals. Then it was gloves
and a face shield, add a special over coat. From there the most was
special gloves, very heavy overcoat,big helment thing over out head.
There were some special rules for some circuits that about 2 supervisors
had to sign off some paperwork and we had to stand on a special rubber
type mat , have someone with a hook standing about 10 feet awsy with
special hook to pull us off the live wires and all the other heavy duty
suits.

[gfre...@aol.com]

I am curious what the answer was in the ROP.

[gfre...@aol.com]

That is just the way Knox from U/L explained it to us.

[gfre...@aol.com]

I looked at the 2010 (for the 11 code) and I didn't see it. I will
look at some others

[gfre...@aol.com]

I have an electric smoker with no thermostat that has a 1600w element
and a molded 5-15 plug on it. It will trip a 15a breaker, yet it is
stamped U/L.

>The NEC restriction is unenforceable. If YOU had a (noncontinuous)
>device with a 15A plug that ran at 13A would you be careful to only plug
>it into a 20A receptacle, or a 15A receceptacle that is the only one on
>the circuit (as required by the NEC)? No one else would.
>And the NEC can't prevent me from plugging in 6 - 1400W space heaters on
>a single 15A circuit. Oops that would be unsafe. I would put them on a
>20A circuit.
>
>240.4-D (max 15A breaker for #14) is only relevant for 'modern'
>insulation. At least 2/3 of the wire in my house is TW or NM where 4-D
>is not relevant. And I believe a major basis for the 80% rule is that
>breakers (with a thermal trip) in an enclosed panel with other beakers
>can not be relied on to not trip if subjected to a continuous load. I am
>too lay to look it up, but I think the 80% rule does not apply if the
>breaker is rated for continuous, which electronic trip probably is.

It was only after the 17 code that 14ga TW was not rated at 20a in
310-15 table. (60c column). I still haven't seen what prompted that
change.
That used to be a regular test question. (a 16a FLA motor on a 40a
inverse time breaker using 14ga wire). Mike Holt even referenced that
in a recent EC&M article.

[bud--]

[combining 2 posts]
[and I saw your 2 recent posts - haven't looked at links yet]

>> But I agree it is a stupid idea (allowed by the NEC).

> I am curious what the answer was in the ROP.

I have looked at ROP/ROC on occasion because you can sometimes see what
the logic was. Expect that is why "curious".
(I did not discover either of these anomalies.)
(I have seen at least one proposal from you.)

Your objection (20A on 15A ckt) is certainly not surprising.
Have I mentioned that it is a stupid idea?

==============================

>>
>> (The proposal was at least 10 years ago.)

> I looked at the 2010 (for the 11 code) and I didn't see it. I will
look at some others

Damn. You made me look for my notes. I finally found them.

====================================
For 20A single on 15A ckt:
==================================
For the 2008 NEC there was a proposal to change 210.12-B-1 (single
receptacle) to require the receptacle be equal to the branch circuit
rating. The argument was specifically about a 20A singe receptacle on a
15A circuit.

The code panel rejected the change. Their statement [with my comments] was:
"The recommendation would be overly restrictive in the case of some
larger receptacle applications that do not directly correspond to the
standard ratings of overcurrent protective devices." [It is not
difficult to allow this and limit a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit.]
"The panel notes that a 20-ampere receptacle installed on a 15-ampere
branch circuit is protected within it’s rating." [The panel apparently
does not care that you can plug in readily available devices that are
over the circuit rating.]

So the code panel apparently has no problem with a 20A single receptacle
on a 15A circuit. But IMHO this can be tagged under 406.3-A, and it
appears to me that the code panel for 406 does not agree.
============================
2008 NEC ROP
----------------------
2-8 Log #822 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
(210.21(B)(1))
Submitter: Jeffrey A. Fecteau, City of Peoria, Arizona
Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle
installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating
not less than equal to that of the branch circuit.
Substantiation: As currently written, it is currently being interpreted
to allow a 20 ampere single receptacle to be installed on a 15 ampere
individual branch circuit. 20 ampere single receptacle is not less than
that of the branch circuit.
This would allow a 20 ampere rated piece of equipment to be connected to
a 15 ampere circuit.
See supporting material for response to a question posed to Code
Question of the day, hosted by NEIS, and answered by Ed Holt (Electrical
Inspector - Architect of the Capitol - Instructor - The College of
Southern Maryland)
Note: Supporting material is available for review at NFPA Headquarters.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The recommendation would be overly restrictive in the
case of some larger receptacle applications that do not directly
correspond to the standard ratings of overcurrent protective devices.
The panel notes that a 20-ampere receptacle installed on a 15-ampere
branch cirrcuit is protected within it’s rating.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12
=================================
[I have not looked this up today]
A while back I ran across 406.3-A which, IMHO, prohibits almost all 20A
single receptacles on a 15A circuit:
15/20A receptacles "shall be installed only on circuits of the voltage
class and current for which they are rated." This applies only to
"grounding-type" receptacles, so you presumably could put an ungrounded
20A single receptacle as the only receptacle on a 15A circuit (and only
in those cases where you can use an ungrounded receptacle). Oddness
remains, but is greatly limited.

(210.21 (B)(2) and (B)(3). of course allows a 15A receptacle on a 20A
circuit.)

I would expect a rule for receptacles to be in the article on
receptacles, 406.

There remains a hole - you can install a single (not a duplex) 20A
non-grounding receptacle on a 15A circuit that has no ground if it is
the only receptacle on the circuit. Rather limited application. And you
would have to find a single 20A receptacle without a ground.

[bud--]

Part 2
210.21-B-2 limits connected load to 80% (even for non-continuous for 2
or more receptacles on a circuit.

====================================
From my notes:

===================================
There were proposals for 2002 (the oldest one I looked at), 2005, 2008
and 2011 to eliminate the table or make it apply only to continuous
loads (as the 80% rule is applied elsewhere in the code). All were rejected.

The arguments that are often made to change table 210.21-B-2 to apply
only to "continuous" loads are:
1 elsewhere in the NEC the derate to 80% is for "continuous loads"
2 it is a requirement that regulates what happens after the inspector
leaves and is unenforceable
3 UL listed equipment (probably only non-continuous) is readily
available that violates the rule.

From the comments, it appears that at least one other code panel does
not agree. This code panel seems to not play well with others.

The logic displayed seems to be we (NEC) are right they (UL) are wrong.
[The other post the argument made at least minimal sense]
==============================
2011 ROP
-------------------
delete 210.21-B-2 rejected
the ususal argument
======================
2008ROP
attempts to delete table 210.21-B-2 - rejected
=========================
2005ROP
--------------------------
attempt to get rid of table 210.21-B-2; rejected
*** PORTER: UL agrees with the panel action on this proposal, but not
with the panel's statement. 210.23 permits an individual branch circuit
to supply any load for which it is rated. For multioutlet branch
circuits, use of noncontinuous appliances rated at 100 percent of the
branch circuit does not result in a hazard. All branch circuit
components, such as the receptacles, branch circuit wiring, and the
overcurrent devices, when used for supplying noncontinuous loads, are
evaluated for service at 100 percent of their full rating.
---------------------------
negative on a similar proposal
PORTER: Section 210.23 permits an individual branch circuit to supply
any load for which it is rated. For multioutlet branch circuits, use of
noncontinuous appliances rated at 100 percent of the branch circuit does
not result in a hazard. All branch circuit components, such as the
receptacles, branch circuit wiring, and the overcurrent devices, when
used for supplying noncontinuous loads, are evaluated for service at 100
percent of their full rating.
=================
2005ROC
Comment
*** Questions regarding how this requirement has been applied to
products rated more than 12 amps and provided with 15 ampere plugs
should be addressed to the responsible listing organization. [In other
words, we (NEC) are right and UL is wrong]
======================
2002 ROP
--------------------------
change limits in 210.21-B-2 to continuous; rejected
Substantiation:
This change is necessary to provide consistency between this section and
section 384-16(d), 210-20, 210-19 and other sections requiring the 80
percent rule. Portable appliances (such as microwave units and hair
dryers) and relocatable power taps are UL tested for a maximum of 1800
watts on a 15 ampere branch circuit and operate as a non continuous load
on these branch circuits without a problem.
Panel 20 and Panel 2 have established a Study Task Group to bring some
suggestions for a resolution of this issue.
UL 498 tests receptacles at 150 percent of their rating so limiting the
load on as now required by Table 210-21(b)(2) for noncontinuous load is
unnecessary.
See also Proposal 20-52 on page 668 of the 98 ROP.
Statement by panel: Quote" the substantiation does not justify the
reduction in rating to 12 amperes and 16 amperes for appliances rated
between 12 and 15 amperes and between 16 and 20 amperes respectively."
This Section as revised will make it mandatory for continuous loads only
and not for noncontinuous loads. [??? not followed]

substantiation for a similar proposal:
*** A Task Group comprised of members from code-making panel #2 and #20
met on 7/14/99 at Underwriters Laboratories Inc. in Northbrook, IL and
developed examples of the diversity of products that utilize 100 percent
of the current rating of the plug. These included intermittent duty
products such as microwaves, power tools, personal care products,
exercise machines, kitchen appliances, and lawn and garden equipment.
Evidence of problems stemming from excessive current do not exist with
the above products. A review of manufacturers' complaint databases and
the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) data shows no
evidence of problems with cords on these appliances from excessive
current draw.
===========================
2010 [ROP?ROC]
in favor: The rule is necessary to correlate with the product standards
for receptacles. 15A duplex receptacles are evaluated to supply 15A
through the individual receptacle contact points.
==========================
2008 [ROP?ROC]
The panel continues to maintain that the cord and plug connected load
must not exceed the maximum load specified in Table
210.21(B)(2).
===========================
2005 [ROP?ROC]
In the past, the panel has made it clear that cord-and-plug-connected
devices are expected to be limited to 12 A if supplied by a 15 A
attachment plug.

[gfre...@aol.com]

NFPA is digging this hole deeper. Look at the draft of the 23 I posted
the link in another note.

[Clare Snyder]

On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 16:31:11 -0400, Ralph Mowery
<rmow...@charter.net> wrote:

>In article <LtI7J.175668$Kv2.1...@fx47.iad>, nu...@void.com says...
>>
>> So you think it is not a problem if a UL listed device is likely to be
>> used in a way that violates the NEC?
>> Maybe that is true in Canada.
>>
>> UL is concerned with safety.
>>
>>
>
>Not being a licensed electrician I may have it wrong.
>

>My impression is that if something is UL listed it means they checked it
>out to see if it is elecrtrically save when used like the instructions
>tell you to.
>That does not even mean it will actually work,just that it will not
>catch fire or shock you , so to speak.

The 20 amp outlet EXCEDES code requirement and ISA allowed by code
on a 15 amp circuit (under certain conditiond)

[bud--]

Think I said before - sounds like an interesting place to work.

You've probably heard it all.
Many ways to get an arc, which is plasma - ionized air. With high
available current the arc can continue until cleared by a fuse/breaker.
A worker can get serious (like fatal) burns from radiated heat. There
can be a blast from rapidly expanding heated air. Vaporized metal.
Shrapnel from heat and magnetic effects. Any of it can permanently ruin
your day. Also flash (eyes) and sound. The energy available at some
locations prevents working on the equipment live.

The guy I know that got caught was doing something absolutely routine -
amp-clamp a wire in a 480V motor control center. It is not known what
happened but there was an arc-flash. He got serious burns, some from
vaporized copper condensing on his skin (which was also poisonous). Was
in the hospital quite a while with several plastic surgeries. The
industrial plant bought power at distribution voltage level and owned
the transformer from maybe 13.8kV to 480. Not only did one of the
primary fuses blow, it damaged the fuseholder (should never have happened).

The other event I heard about was a field rep for a major manufacturer.
Facility had a motor control center with an unused empty cubicle. He was
measuring the space for what would fit. With a steel tape. He wound up
on the floor on the other side of the room.

There was a reason OSHA increased regulation. I think they increased
protection from shock at the same time (probably the hook and mat).