Seal electrical boxes with aluminum tape?

[TomR]

I just had some new 100-amp electric service panels put in by a licensed
electrician. One is a new house panel in the basement where the old panels
were located, and the other two are in the upstairs apartments (one in each
apartment). The new house panel is in the basement where there used to be
two old panel boxes. The individual circuit wiring for each of the two new
upstairs apartment panels drops down to where the two original panels were
located and each circuit is tied in there. That leaves all of the house
wiring as it was before, but connects the old circuits to the new panels.

Rather than use the original old panel boxes as junction boxes, the
electrician created new smaller junction boxes there by starting with a
regular metal 4-inch junction box and then stacking one or two 4-inch metal
box extenders on top of that to create a larger junction box. And then, of
course, there is a metal cover plate.

To be clear, here are 3 photo links showing the basic junction box type that
I mean, plus the metal box extender, and the metal cover plate:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/RACO-Square-Box-5A050?Pid=search

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/RACO-Electrical-Box-1RVU4?Pid=search

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/RACO-Flat-Blank-Square-Box-Cover-5A053?BaseItem=5A050



When I look at the newly-created junction boxes, it looks to me like they
don't quite fit together too well and there are some visible gaps (maybe
1/16 to 1/8 inch max) between the stacked boxes. I am wondering if that may
be considered a problem since theoretically there could be sparks inside the
junction box sometime in the future and maybe the box wouldn't fully prevent
the sparks from exiting the box.

I, of course, do have a permit and I am about to call for the final
inspection. I will be there for the final inspection that will be done by
the electrical subcode official.

Here's my question:

If by chance the inspector says the gaps are not acceptable, would it be
possible and acceptable to solve that problem by just wrapping the boxes
with several layers of metal aluminum tape -- maybe even high temperature
aluminum tape? My plan would be to have the metal tape there with me just
in case, and if it is okay with the inspector, just wrap the boxes quickly
while he is still there so he won't have to come back and re-inspect.

I know it is up to the inspector, but I am just wondering if anyone has ever
done this, or if sealing metal junction boxes with metal aluminum tape is
ever done and considered acceptable.

[DerbyDad03]

On Mar 18, 4:45 pm, "TomR" <T...@tomrljp5.lhd> wrote:
> I just had some new 100-amp electric service panels put in by a licensed
> electrician.  One is a new house panel in the basement where the old panels
> were located, and the other two are in the upstairs apartments (one in each
> apartment).  The new house panel is in the basement where there used to be
> two old panel boxes.  The individual circuit wiring for each of the two new
> upstairs apartment panels drops down to where the two original panels were
> located and each circuit is tied in there.  That leaves all of the house
> wiring as it was before, but connects the old circuits to the new panels.
>
> Rather than use the original old panel boxes as junction boxes, the
> electrician created new smaller junction boxes there by starting with a
> regular metal 4-inch junction box and then stacking one or two 4-inch metal
> box extenders on top of that to create a larger junction box.  And then, of
> course, there is a metal cover plate.
>
> To be clear, here are 3 photo links showing the basic junction box type that
> I mean, plus the metal box extender, and the metal cover plate:http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/RACO-Square-Box-5A050?Pid=search
>
> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/RACO-Electrical-Box-1RVU4?Pid=search
>

> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/RACO-Flat-Blank-Square-Box-Cover-5A0...

>
> When I look at the newly-created junction boxes, it looks to me like they
> don't quite fit together too well and there are some visible gaps (maybe
> 1/16 to 1/8 inch max) between the stacked boxes.  I am wondering if that may
> be considered a problem since theoretically there could be sparks inside the
> junction box sometime in the future and maybe the box wouldn't fully prevent
> the sparks from exiting the box.
>
> I, of course, do have a permit and I am about to call for the final
> inspection.  I will be there for the final inspection that will be done by
> the electrical subcode official.
>
> Here's my question:
>
> If by chance the inspector says the gaps are not acceptable, would it be
> possible and acceptable to solve that problem by just wrapping the boxes
> with several layers of metal aluminum tape -- maybe even high temperature
> aluminum tape?  My plan would be to have the metal tape there with me just
> in case, and if it is okay with the inspector, just wrap the boxes quickly
> while he is still there so he won't have to come back and re-inspect.
>
> I know it is up to the inspector, but I am just wondering if anyone has ever
> done this, or if sealing metal junction boxes with metal aluminum tape is
> ever done and considered acceptable.

I've never heard of using any type of tape to "seal" a junction box to
keep sparks in. Seems to me that just what is sold is what is always
used.

However, your description has me wondering about something else:

You said "...starting with a regular metal 4-inch junction box and

then stacking one or two 4-inch metal box extenders on top of that to
create a larger junction box."

I wonder how many of these extenders you are allowed to use before a
panel is actuallly required. It seems to me that three 4" boxes
(that's a foot!) sticking off of a wall would be an issue in and of
itself.

I'd like to see a picture of that setup.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:13:42 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

>On Mar 18, 4:45ļæ½pm, "TomR" <T...@tomrljp5.lhd> wrote:
>> I just had some new 100-amp electric service panels put in by a licensed

>> electrician. ļæ½One is a new house panel in the basement where the old panels

>> were located, and the other two are in the upstairs apartments (one in each

>> apartment). ļæ½The new house panel is in the basement where there used to be
>> two old panel boxes. ļæ½The individual circuit wiring for each of the two new

>> upstairs apartment panels drops down to where the two original panels were

>> located and each circuit is tied in there. ļæ½That leaves all of the house

>> wiring as it was before, but connects the old circuits to the new panels.
>>
>> Rather than use the original old panel boxes as junction boxes, the
>> electrician created new smaller junction boxes there by starting with a
>> regular metal 4-inch junction box and then stacking one or two 4-inch metal

>> box extenders on top of that to create a larger junction box. ļæ½And then, of

>> course, there is a metal cover plate.
>>
>> To be clear, here are 3 photo links showing the basic junction box type that
>> I mean, plus the metal box extender, and the metal cover plate:http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/RACO-Square-Box-5A050?Pid=search
>>
>> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/RACO-Electrical-Box-1RVU4?Pid=search
>>
>> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/RACO-Flat-Blank-Square-Box-Cover-5A0...
>>
>> When I look at the newly-created junction boxes, it looks to me like they
>> don't quite fit together too well and there are some visible gaps (maybe

>> 1/16 to 1/8 inch max) between the stacked boxes. ļæ½I am wondering if that may

>> be considered a problem since theoretically there could be sparks inside the
>> junction box sometime in the future and maybe the box wouldn't fully prevent
>> the sparks from exiting the box.
>>
>> I, of course, do have a permit and I am about to call for the final

>> inspection. ļæ½I will be there for the final inspection that will be done by

>> the electrical subcode official.
>>
>> Here's my question:
>>
>> If by chance the inspector says the gaps are not acceptable, would it be
>> possible and acceptable to solve that problem by just wrapping the boxes
>> with several layers of metal aluminum tape -- maybe even high temperature

>> aluminum tape? ļæ½My plan would be to have the metal tape there with me just

>> in case, and if it is okay with the inspector, just wrap the boxes quickly
>> while he is still there so he won't have to come back and re-inspect.
>>
>> I know it is up to the inspector, but I am just wondering if anyone has ever
>> done this, or if sealing metal junction boxes with metal aluminum tape is
>> ever done and considered acceptable.
>
>I've never heard of using any type of tape to "seal" a junction box to
>keep sparks in. Seems to me that just what is sold is what is always
>used.
>
>However, your description has me wondering about something else:
>
>You said "...starting with a regular metal 4-inch junction box and
>then stacking one or two 4-inch metal box extenders on top of that to
>create a larger junction box."
>
>I wonder how many of these extenders you are allowed to use before a
>panel is actuallly required. It seems to me that three 4" boxes
>(that's a foot!) sticking off of a wall would be an issue in and of
>itself.
>
>I'd like to see a picture of that setup.

I believe he is talking about 4 inch X 4 inch boxes that are about 2
inches deep - so mabee 6 inches thick off the wall - or was it
standard gang-boxes? so 6 to 8 inches wide across the wall. That would
make more sense to me.

[Ralph Mowery]

"DerbyDad03" <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in message
news:61b083c3-41a2-4e6d...@hl5g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

However, your description has me wondering about something else:

>You said "...starting with a regular metal 4-inch junction box and
>then stacking one or two 4-inch metal box extenders on top of that to
>create a larger junction box."

>I wonder how many of these extenders you are allowed to use before a
>panel is actuallly required. It seems to me that three 4" boxes
>(that's a foot!) sticking off of a wall would be an issue in and of
>itself.

>I'd like to see a picture of that setup.

The boxes are 4 inches square and only 1 1/2 to 2 inches deep. It would
only be 6 inches at the most.

[RBM]

They're 1 1/2" deep X 3 = 4 1/2" deep. Still a crappy job in my opinion

[TomR]

DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Mar 18, 4:45 pm, "TomR" <T...@tomrljp5.lhd> wrote:

>> I just had some new 100-amp electric service panels put in . . .

>
> However, your description has me wondering about something else:
>
> You said "...starting with a regular metal 4-inch junction box and
> then stacking one or two 4-inch metal box extenders on top of that to
> create a larger junction box."
>
> I wonder how many of these extenders you are allowed to use before a
> panel is actuallly required. It seems to me that three 4" boxes
> (that's a foot!) sticking off of a wall would be an issue in and of
> itself.

I may not have described it very well. I meant that the boxes are 4 inches
across (as shown in the phot links), not 4 inches deep. So, each box is 4
inches across and 2-1/8 inches deep. Two boxes stacked would be 4-1/4
inches deep. Three boxes stacked would be 6-3/8 inches deep.

I never saw this setup done before to create a junction box, but that's what
I have now. It does take up way less space than the old original panel
boxes would have taken up. And, it does look better, except for the
possible glitch of what looks like small gaps between the boxes.

> I'd like to see a picture of that setup.

Sorry, my camera is missing and it has been missing for about 3 weeks, I
keep thinking it will turn up someplace, but so far no luck.

[RBM]

The extension boxes never fit tightly together so I doubt the inspector
will have an issue with that. If the electrician needs to stack that
many boxes together to achieve proper box fill, he should be using a
different box or a small trough. Doing what he did will make it really
difficult to access any of the splices made in the first box, not to
mention being an eye sore. If there is no other violation found, IMO
doing this doesn't meet Nec 110.12 " electrical equipment shall be
installed in a neat and workmanlike manner"

[TomR]

RBM wrote:
>> On 3/18/2013 5:13 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> On Mar 18, 4:45 pm, "TomR" <T...@tomrljp5.lhd> wrote:

>>> I just had some new 100-amp electric service panels . . .

>>
>> You said "...starting with a regular metal 4-inch junction box and
>> then stacking one or two 4-inch metal box extenders on top of that to
>> create a larger junction box."
>>
>> I wonder how many of these extenders you are allowed to use before a
>> panel is actuallly required. It seems to me that three 4" boxes
>> (that's a foot!) sticking off of a wall would be an issue in and of
>> itself.

> They're 1 1/2" deep X 3 = 4 1/2" deep. Still a crappy job in my

> opinion.

Oops, I wrote that they are 2 1/8 inches deep, but I think you are right and
they are 1 1/2 inches deep. I'll have to look again and double check to be
sure.

And, yes, it did strike me as an odd (a.k.a. crappy) setup. I would have
expected that he could have put in whatever size junction box that was
needed as a single box rather than cobbling together 2 or 3 of these on top
of each other.

But, that's what I got and now I have to wonder if the inspector will gig me
on that or just let it go as is. Even if I don't get gigged on it, I think
that I would like to wrap the boxes in high-temp aluminum tape anyway after
the inspector leaves -- assuming that isn't a problem for some reason.

[TomR]

Thanks. That's good to know. Hopefully, I won't get gigged on that and I
can move on from there.

[John Grabowski]

*He could have used a 4 11/16" square x 2 1/8" deep box for several
circuits. Having multiple extensions doesn't make sense. Of course 4"
boxes are cheaper than anything bigger. Maybe a low bid job. I hope the
conductors are long enough to extend out of the box.

[willshak]

I am not an electrician, but I am wondering.
If something required you to get to the first box in that stack,
wouldn't you have to remove the second and third boxes to get to the
first box, or am I missing the point?

--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @

[Ralph Mowery]

"willshak" <will...@00hvc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ki8ml3$ok8$1...@dont-email.me...

> I am not an electrician, but I am wondering.
> If something required you to get to the first box in that stack, wouldn't
> you have to remove the second and third boxes to get to the first box, or
> am I missing the point?

The boxes are not full boxes. The first box will have a bottom and 4 sides
and provision for a cover. The second and other boxes if used will only
have 4 sides and provision for a cover. It will not have a bottom. As you
stack them, the upper boxes just make the first box deeper so to speak.

[Roy]

Do NOT wrap those boxes with ANYTHING. They must be left AS THEY ARE. They must be accessible at all times. There should be NO sparks inside those boxes EVER. Where did you get that idea of sparks?

[RBM]

If a connection shorts out, or comes loose within the box, there WILL be
sparks

[RBM]

Even so, as John Grabowski said, the Nec requires any spliced conductors
to be long enough to stick out of the box 3 inches.

[Harry K]

The inspector will "gig" the job, not you and your electrician will
have to fix it on his dime.

Harry K

[Harry K]

On Mar 18, 8:48 pm, "Ralph Mowery" <rmowery28...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "willshak" <wills...@00hvc.rr.com> wrote in message

Except there is a "lip" around that open bottom on the inside. Very
NOT fun to work in them.

My bet is the inspector will have an attack of the horrors when he
sees that cobbled up job.

Harry K

[TomR]

True, but if he does gig the job, and a simple fix that can be done on the
spot is acceptable to the inspector (such as sealing the gaps by wrapping
the box with high-temp metal tape), I would rather just fix it myself and be
done with it. I'll post back what the outcome is in a few days after the
inspection.

[TomR]

Roy wrote:
> On Monday, March 18, 2013 2:45:46 PM UTC-6, TomR wrote:

>> I just had some new 100-amp electric service panels put in...

>> ...., or if sealing metal junction boxes with metal aluminum

>> tape is ever done and considered acceptable.

> Do NOT wrap those boxes with ANYTHING. They must be left AS THEY ARE.
> They must be accessible at all times. There should be NO sparks
> inside those boxes EVER. Where did you get that idea of sparks?

First, it would only be the sides of the boxes that would be sealed, so the
cover plates could still be taken off and the boxes would still be easily
accessible.

About the potential sparks...., I think that is one of the main reasons why
electrical connections have to be made inside a junction box or other
electrical box -- so that if there are ever any bad or loose connections,
shorts, or sparks, they won't cause a fire by burning nearby combustible
materials.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 23:41:08 -0400, willshak <will...@00hvc.rr.com>
wrote:

They are box "extenders - basically boxes with no top or bottom

[The Daring Dufas]

Hey RBM, when you see a situation where one extension won't satisfy
space requirements, do you do what I do? Mount another box or get a
6x6x4 or 8x8x4 and put everything in there? o_O

TDD

[RBM]

Exactly, if you have that many cables to splice, you use a larger box, a
small trough, or multiple boxes. Id really like to see this multi-ganged
1900 extension set up with cables coming out in all directions like an
octopus.

[DerbyDad03]

RBM <r...@noemail.com> wrote:
> On 3/19/2013 7:36 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

...snipped...

>>>>>
>>>>> Rather than use the original old panel boxes as junction boxes, the
>>>>> electrician created new smaller junction boxes there by starting with a
>>>>> regular metal 4-inch junction box and then stacking one or two 4-inch
>>>>> metal box extenders on top of that to create a larger junction box. And
>>>>> then, of course, there is a metal cover plate.

...snipped again...

>>
>> Hey RBM, when you see a situation where one extension won't satisfy >
>> space requirements, do you do what I do? Mount another box or get a
>> 6x6x4 or 8x8x4 and put everything in there? o_O
>>
>> TDD
>
> Exactly, if you have that many cables to splice, you use a larger box, a
> small trough, or multiple boxes. Id really like to see this multi-ganged
> 1900 extension set up with cables coming out in all directions like an octopus.

I've never used a trough. If you use something like a 4x4x12 trough, does
the "3 inches of wire outside the box" rule still apply?

[The Daring Dufas]

Some years back, I rewired a building that was being used as a beauty
shop, a very large beauty shop. When a storm blew down a tree which
landed on the drop from the transformer, it broke the hub on the meter
box and sliced the wires like a pair of scissors. It was a 200 amp 3�
service so after discussing it with the customer, I went back in with
a 400 amp 3� service and ran the shop off a 65kw diesel generator while
rebuilding the electrical system. I ran all the new circuits overhead
and what I did was come out of the breaker panel with a single 2&1/2"
EMT and elbow to a large screw cover non-gasket junction box in the drop
ceiling and ran my multiple 1/2" EMT 20 amp circuits for hair dryers and
work stations out of that. Not running separate 1/2 conduits
to the panel made changes and additions very easy not to mention the
whole job was easier. My inspector thought it a bit unusual but had no
problem with it and it did make for a much neater installation for the
inside breaker panel. There was a large trough fed with 4" rigid for
the other breaker panels on a wall in the garage area. ^_^

TDD

[RBM]

The Nec requires that all the conductors except ones that are passing
through unbroken, be at least 6" long from the point that they enter the
box. If the box opening is less than 8" in any dimension, there needs to
be minimum of 3" sticking beyond the box

[RBM]

That makes for a neat installation. I once did a Chinese restaurant like
that. The only issue doing it that way is the requirement to de-rate the
value of the conductors in the 2 1/2" conduit

[The Daring Dufas]

De-rating was the only issue that came up with the 2&1/2" conduit but
with less than 50% fill it was no problem. That was the reason I went
with the large size. All the conductors would have fit in a 1&1/2" pipe
easily but I went with the bigger pipe to avoid any capacity or wire
pulling hangups. The big junction box in the ceiling made wire pulling
very easy since I was doing most of the work myself. When I teach guys
and gals how to pull wire, I explain that I'm lazy and I want things to
be as easy as possible so I will setup a pull so it can be done by one
person if need be. Most of what I do these days is low voltage telecom
and network wiring and network wiring, especially fiber optic cable is
something to be treated gently. I often spend more time planning a cable
pull than the time it takes to pull the cable in. ^_^

TDD

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

But for that distance, the extra cost to go one size larger on your
wire is a very small increment. Particularly in the grand scheme of
things.

[TomR]

"TomR" <To...@tomrljp5.lhd> wrote in message
news:kia1rv$25r$1...@dont-email.me...

> Harry K wrote:
>> On Mar 18, 2:45 pm, "TomR" <T...@tomrljp5.lhd> wrote:
>>> RBM wrote:
>>>>> On 3/18/2013 5:13 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> On Mar 18, 4:45 pm, "TomR" <T...@tomrljp5.lhd> wrote:
>>>>>> I just had some new 100-amp electric service panels . . .

>> The inspector will "gig" the job, not you and your electrician will
>> have to fix it on his dime.

> True, but if he does gig the job, and a simple fix that can be done on the
> spot is acceptable to the inspector (such as sealing the gaps by wrapping
> the box with high-temp metal tape), I would rather just fix it myself and
> be done with it. I'll post back what the outcome is in a few days after
> the inspection.

Here is the follow-up:

The inspector came out and the work was approved. He checked all of the
things that I would have expected him to check such as: 2 grounding rods
approximately 6 feet apart; grounding to a cold water pipe; a jumper across
the water meter; a jumper across the hot and cold water for each of the two
hot water heaters; continuous grounding wire between all of the panels and
going outside to the two grounding rods; circuit breakers labeled and the
main service disconnect in each panel labeled as such; he asked of the panel
in the basement was the new "house" panel (which it is) since the tenants
don't have access to the basement (the individual apt. panels are inside
each apt. with tenant having access to their own service disconnect and
breakers); etc. He looked at the junction boxes that I wrote about and
didn't say anything.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 22:03:13 -0400, "TomR" <To...@tomrljp2hg.mht>
wrote:

>Here is the follow-up:
>
>The inspector came out and the work was approved.

> He looked at the junction boxes that I wrote about and
>didn't say anything.

Good to hear. Thanks for the follow up