OT - Power Pole Guy Wires

[DerbyDad03]

How do they determine where to place the guy wire for a power pole?

They replaced 2 poles on my street this week.

On one pole, they placed the guy wire perpendicular to the street, on
the other it's parallel. In both cases, there is space to have put it
either way, so I don't think "location" was the issue.

In both cases, the prevailing wind will hit the poles from the same
direction, so the guy wire placement can't be based on that.

On the "perpendicular" pole there are wires that come to the pole from
almost the opposite direction of the guy wire (as if the guy wire
offsets the tension of the wires) but also a set of wires that leave
the pole at a right angle to the guy wire. Those wires go to the other
pole in question.

On the "parallel" pole the wires come to and leave the pole in line
with guy wire, so if the guy wire is offsetting the tension of one
set, it's doing nothing for the other.

Since there is nothing consistant in the placement of the guy wire for
these 2 poles, they've got me curious.

[Twayne]

The name of this NG is not "OT"! Why don't you ask your local electric that
question? All you're going to get are guesses and by gollies from here.
Assuming you're not a troll, that is.


In news:563a16fe-8c57-4737...@r27g2000vbn.googlegroups.com,
DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> typed:
...

[DerbyDad03]

On Mar 20, 5:20 pm, "Twayne" <nob...@devnull.spamcop.net> wrote:
> The name of this NG is not "OT"! Why don't you ask your local electric that
> question? All you're going to get are guesses and by gollies from here.
> Assuming you're not a troll, that is.
>
> Innews:563a16fe-8c57-4737...@r27g2000vbn.googlegroups.com,

> DerbyDad03 <teamarr...@eznet.net> typed:
> ...

If you think that all I'm going to get "are guesses and by gollies
from here", sit back and watch.

[boy-o...@dont-botther-me.com]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 13:28:31 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

>How do they determine where to place the guy wire for a power pole?
>
>They replaced 2 poles on my street this week.
>
>On one pole, they placed the guy wire perpendicular to the street, on
>the other it's parallel. In both cases, there is space to have put it
>either way, so I don't think "location" was the issue.
>
>In both cases, the prevailing wind will hit the poles from the same
>direction, so the guy wire placement can't be based on that.
>
>On the "perpendicular" pole there are wires that come to the pole from
>almost the opposite direction of the guy wire (as if the guy wire
>offsets the tension of the wires) but also a set of wires that leave
>the pole at a right angle to the guy wire. Those wires go to the other
>pole in question.
>
>On the "parallel" pole the wires come to and leave the pole in line
>with guy wire, so if the guy wire is offsetting the tension of one
>set, it's doing nothing for the other.

First, I must take issue with the consistent use of guy wires. I
think you should either use of mixture of guy and gall wires, or you
should say, "affable young most-likely single person wires".

Or g-wires.

I gather the parallel pole has major wires in only one direction, so
the g-wires are oopposite of that.

At the perp pole, I gather there is nothing, not a g-wire or a
transmission wire, opposite the wires going to the parallel pole.

That's interesting. They may have some way to know nothing is
necessary, some device that measures tension, or how vertical the
polie is when no wires are attached, or they know from the length and
weight of the wires that they aren't enough to need a counter force,
but of course, then how come there are guy-wires at the perp pole.
Oh, darn. I called them guy-wires. Now my girl friend won't lend me
money for at least a week.

Come to think of it, I don't recall seeing ggg-stop hitting me--
wires. in more than one direction on the same pole.

But I once had occasion to erect 12 to 18 foot poles which were
connected at the top by a wire, actually heavy monofilament, but they
were called wires, and the poles were aluminum and light-weight.
Where the wire.turned a corner, I would have to put in guy wires (All
right, leave if you want to.) and I had to bisect the externior angle
made by the wires at the corner where they met. I would tie the guy
wire to a tree and there wasn't always a tree in the right spot, so I
took the nearest tree, and I could feel the difference as I held the
guy wire and moved it from the place I preferred to a nearby tree.
But the line was light and nothing was thick enough to catch much
wind, so I don't think anything ever fell down for lack of guy (Ha!)
wires. Three or 4 times over 10 years a piece of alumninum tubing
bent and the tubing folded.

[Jim Elbrecht]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 13:28:31 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

>How do they determine where to place the guy wire for a power pole?
>
>They replaced 2 poles on my street this week.
>
>On one pole, they placed the guy wire perpendicular to the street, on
>the other it's parallel. In both cases, there is space to have put it
>either way, so I don't think "location" was the issue.

The guy wire doesn't care where the street is-- it is offset some
tension on the pole. There is either a bit of a corner, or a spur
going off [or going to go off] any pole with a guy wire on it.

>
>In both cases, the prevailing wind will hit the poles from the same
>direction, so the guy wire placement can't be based on that.

We never accounted for wind. I was on a telephone crew, so we had
shorter poles, but heavier, and less aerodynamic wires. There were
places we could put 10-12 poles in a straight line & none needed
guying, even though the prevailing wind was pretty stiff on the
mountaintops.

>
>On the "perpendicular" pole there are wires that come to the pole from
>almost the opposite direction of the guy wire (as if the guy wire
>offsets the tension of the wires)

That what they do.

>but also a set of wires that leave
>the pole at a right angle to the guy wire. Those wires go to the other
>pole in question.

When we were doing it [at a little independent telco in the 70's], it
was pretty much 'by guess and by gosh'- but some engineer probably has
figured out the pounds of tension produced by a span of wires at a
certain angle and a certain length. That strain will help hold a
smaller lighter load in a different direction.

>
>On the "parallel" pole the wires come to and leave the pole in line
>with guy wire, so if the guy wire is offsetting the tension of one
>set, it's doing nothing for the other.
>
>Since there is nothing consistant in the placement of the guy wire for
>these 2 poles, they've got me curious.

Plans for spur lines are sometimes in the works so when you put in the
main line you put guy wires in for the spurs. They might go slack
for a couple years until the spur gets built, then they get snugged
up.

Jim

[Steve Barker]

the guy wires are always 180 degrees from the load. If perpendicular to
the street, then it's to offset the load of the drop opposite to the guy
wire. If inline, then it may be a case of wire size changing. In front
of my house the cable gets smaller as there is only two more houses
north of me, so the guy wires pull against the heavier wire to the
south. Look closely, and you'll see the reason for each guy wire.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 13:28:31 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

>How do they determine where to place the guy wire for a power pole?
>
>They replaced 2 poles on my street this week.
>
>On one pole, they placed the guy wire perpendicular to the street, on
>the other it's parallel. In both cases, there is space to have put it
>either way, so I don't think "location" was the issue.
>
>In both cases, the prevailing wind will hit the poles from the same
>direction, so the guy wire placement can't be based on that.
>

The pole in front of my house is the last one. The guy wire is
parallel to the street and will offset any pull from the wires on the
opposite side. Wind is not a factor, at least on this pole.

They may factor in common sense too. Are the pole in front of a
residence? Will the wire interfere with or be on private property?
While the pole in front of my house is on "my" lawn, it is in fact on
the right of way that I do not own.

FWIW, there are also two Poles in my house.

[DerbyDad03]

The pole in front of my house has the perpendicular guy wire which as
I said in my OP appear to be the offset from the wires that come in
from the pole across the street. However, there is also a set of wires
coming off of the pole at 90 degrees from the guy wire. If there were
to be a guy wire 180 degrees from that wire, the guy wire would end up
in my driveway.

I'll have to look at the other pole, the one with the guy wire in line
with the wires. Maybe one set of wires is smaller than the
other...I'll have to check when the sun comes up.

[DD_BobK]

DD-

I'm not sure I'm following your pole descriptions entirely correctly
but generally speaking......

The forces applied (by the electrical wires) to a utility pole must be
resisted by
1) bending forces in the pole (as in an un-guyed flag pole)
2) compression forces in the pole
3) tension in guy wires
4) a combination of 1), 2) or 3).

The utility company does what's easiest / most cost effective.

You'll see some situations at the end of a run, where the cables are
routed underground, very large poles.
These "dead end" poles are often not guyed and thus resist the forces
by bending.

You'll see situations were a pole might be guyed in one direction but
not the other.
The loads in the un-guyed direction most likely are low enough to be
handled by the pole alone.

Sometimes there will be a lone guyed pole without any electrical
wires,
just a horizontal "guy" to another pole, thus providing a "remote"
guy
when it is not possible to place a "local" guy.


The selection of poles & placement of guys is all about force balance.

cheers
Bob

PS I guess Twayne was mistaken..... by golly :)

[Tegger]

Jim Elbrecht <elbr...@email.com> wrote in
news:3r2im7d0oqc2afmfm...@4ax.com:

>
> When we were doing it [at a little independent telco in the 70's], it
> was pretty much 'by guess and by gosh'- but some engineer probably has
> figured out the pounds of tension produced by a span of wires at a
> certain angle and a certain length. That strain will help hold a
> smaller lighter load in a different direction.

I have a related question: How are the guy wires held in the ground? What
keeps the steel loop from coming out of the soil?


--
Tegger

[harry]

On Mar 21, 7:55 am, Tegger <inva...@example.com> wrote:
> Jim Elbrecht <elbre...@email.com> wrote innews:3r2im7d0oqc2afmfm...@4ax.com:

They have "ground anchors". They are spirally wound steel rods. Just
screw into the ground. Or sometimes a helix.
Similar to this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screwpiles

[harry]

Ideally they take the vectorsum of the forces caused by the wires and
put the guy wire there. So if it's the end of a run it will be @ 180
dgerees.
If it's at a change in direction, they bisect the obtuse angle.

[Tegger]

harry <harol...@aol.com> wrote in
news:708d3560-0988-4c6d...@k6g2000vbz.googlegroups.com:

> On Mar 21, 7:55 am, Tegger <inva...@example.com> wrote:
>> Jim Elbrecht <elbre...@email.com> wrote

>> innews:3r2im7d0oqc2afmfmreoal1fo9
> mvus...@4ax.com:

>>
>>
>>
>> > When we were doing it [at a little independent telco in the 70's],
>> > it was pretty much 'by guess and by gosh'- but some engineer
>> > probably has figured out the pounds of tension produced by a span
>> > of wires at a certain angle and a certain length.    That strain
>> > will help hold a smaller lighter load in a different direction.
>>
>> I have a related question: How are the guy wires held in the ground?
>> What keeps the steel loop from coming out of the soil?
>>
>> --
>> Tegger
>
> They have "ground anchors". They are spirally wound steel rods. Just
> screw into the ground. Or sometimes a helix.
> Similar to this.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screwpiles
>

That seems to be it, thanks. It helps when you know what they're called.

I can't imagine the force it must take to screw these things in, especially
into the heavy clay soils of my area.

"Screwpile" appears to be a UK term. I find more American hits using the
terms "helical anchor", or "helical anchor guy wire".

http://www.ecputility.com/Guy_Anchors.asp

--
Tegger

[Jim Elbrecht]

Tegger <inv...@example.com> wrote:

>harry <harol...@aol.com> wrote in
>news:708d3560-0988-4c6d...@k6g2000vbz.googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Mar 21, 7:55 am, Tegger <inva...@example.com> wrote:

-snip-

>>> I have a related question: How are the guy wires held in the ground?
>>> What keeps the steel loop from coming out of the soil?

>> They have "ground anchors". They are spirally wound steel rods. Just
>> screw into the ground. Or sometimes a helix.
>> Similar to this.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screwpiles
>>
>
>
>
>That seems to be it, thanks. It helps when you know what they're called.
>
>I can't imagine the force it must take to screw these things in, especially
>into the heavy clay soils of my area.

We had anchors that you had to dig a hole for. 4, 6, or 8' depending
on what we thought was necessary. Then we got a new truck with
the giant auger on it. That sucker not only dug pole & anchor
holes-- it could twist one of those new-fangled screw anchors right
into the ground without leaving a giant mess.

>
>"Screwpile" appears to be a UK term. I find more American hits using the
>terms "helical anchor", or "helical anchor guy wire".
>
>http://www.ecputility.com/Guy_Anchors.asp

I'd love to see the rest of that picture with the 6 anchors coming out
of the ground--- Where do all the wires go? What is under the
ground? That's got to be the last tower on a high power line. . . ?

Jim

[Doug]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 19:06:53 -0400, Jim Elbrecht <elbr...@email.com>
wrote:

As an engineer I once designed a couple of poles but I think they were
more of transmission lines but I imagine there is similiarity. As I
recall it had to do with the tension or pull of the cables. I think
there is some code I read on this having to do with the amount of pull
of the cables on the pole. I don't think for telephone poles, these
anchors had to do with any wind because they usually bury these poles
deep enough to account for wind.

[Doug]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 23:04:01 -0700 (PDT), DD_BobK <rkaz...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Compression forces in a pole??? How does a guy wire take out
compression forces? Engineer wannabee????

[Doug]

On Wed, 21 Mar 2012 06:51:51 -0500, "Doug" <noemail...@msn.com>
wrote:

Just so I make myself clear, yes there can be compression forces in a
pole but a guy wire does NOT take them out.

[Tegger]

Jim Elbrecht <elbr...@email.com> wrote in

news:o3ejm75mqeonuuifs...@4ax.com:

> Tegger <inv...@example.com> wrote:
>
.
>>
>>http://www.ecputility.com/Guy_Anchors.asp
>
>
> I'd love to see the rest of that picture with the 6 anchors coming out
> of the ground--- Where do all the wires go? What is under the
> ground? That's got to be the last tower on a high power line. . . ?
>

Or a radio antenna?

We have a similar arrangement down the hill from my place. There are (I
think) six power lines on the pole, and six guy wires. The pole is pulled
back so tightly it's actually bowed. That's what got me thinking about why
those anchors didn't pull out of the ground.


--
Tegger

[Tegger]

"Doug" <noemail...@msn.com> wrote in
news:8bgjm79kdnabbq80t...@4ax.com:

>
> Just so I make myself clear, yes there can be compression forces in a
> pole but a guy wire does NOT take them out.
>

If anything, I'd think guy wires ADD compression to the pole, since they
pull downwards as well as sidewards.


--
Tegger

[Doug]

On Wed, 21 Mar 2012 12:46:09 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <inv...@example.com>
wrote:

correct.

[DerbyDad03]

On Mar 21, 7:55 am, "Doug" <noemailaddr...@msn.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Mar 2012 06:51:51 -0500, "Doug" <noemailaddr...@msn.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 23:04:01 -0700 (PDT), DD_BobK <rkaza...@gmail.com>

> pole but a guy wire does NOT take them out.  - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Unless they use a Sky Hook. ;-)

[Twayne]

In news:c10im7lb6niqa65sp...@4ax.com,
boy-o...@dont-botther-me.com <boy-o...@dont-botther-me.com> typed:

> On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 13:28:31 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>
>> How do they determine where to place the guy wire for a
>> power pole?
>>

>
>

>> Since there is nothing consistant in the placement of
>> the guy wire for these 2 poles, they've got me curious.

Lke I said: all junk, almost all guesses from non-experenced dummies. Go to
a group where you're not OT and get a realistic set of answers.

[DerbyDad03]

On Mar 22, 12:29 pm, "Twayne" <nob...@devnull.spamcop.net> wrote:
> Innews:c10im7lb6niqa65sp...@4ax.com,
> boy-oh-...@dont-botther-me.com <boy-oh-...@dont-botther-me.com> typed:

>
> > On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 13:28:31 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> > <teamarr...@eznet.net> wrote:
>
> >> How do they determine where to place the guy wire for a
> >> power pole?
>
> >> Since there is nothing consistant in the placement of
> >> the guy wire for these 2 poles, they've got me curious.
>
> Lke I said: all junk, almost all guesses from non-experenced dummies. Go to
> a group where you're not OT and get a realistic set of answers.

[Steve Barker]

excuse me smartass, my answer was not junk.