GFCI for Dishwasher

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Ed60062

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Nov 25, 2021, 4:12:31 PM11/25/21
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My daughter wants to replace the built-in dishwasher in her condo. The plug-in outlet is behind the dishwasher. Should that outlet be upgraded to a GFCI or not? From what I understand, the current NEC requires all dishwashers to have a GFCI. Yet, all GFCI outlets are supposed to be readily accessible for testing or reset purposes. I'm confused.

Dean Hoffman

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Nov 25, 2021, 5:06:49 PM11/25/21
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On Thursday, November 25, 2021 at 3:12:31 PM UTC-6, Ed60062 wrote:
> My daughter wants to replace the built-in dishwasher in her condo. The plug-in outlet is behind the dishwasher. Should that outlet be upgraded to a GFCI or not? From what I understand, the current NEC requires all dishwashers to have a GFCI. Yet, all GFCI outlets are supposed to be readily accessible for testing or reset purposes. I'm confused.

Yes, to the GFCI.
<https://www.nfpa.org/News-and-Research/Publications-and-media/Blogs-Landing-Page/NFPA-Today/Blog-Posts/2020/09/01/three-key-changes-in-the-2020-national-electrical-code-that-help-make-kitchens-safer-for-families>

Put it somewhere upstream of the outlet behind the dishwasher. The outlets around the sink need to be GFCI
anyhow. Do one of those feed the dishwasher outlet? Or put a GFCI breaker in the breaker box feeding the
kitchen outlets if that will satisfy the requirement.

Clare Snyder

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Nov 25, 2021, 5:20:18 PM11/25/21
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 13:12:28 -0800 (PST), Ed60062
<Ameri...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>My daughter wants to replace the built-in dishwasher in her condo. The plug-in outlet is behind the dishwasher. Should that outlet be upgraded to a GFCI or not? From what I understand, the current NEC requires all dishwashers to have a GFCI. Yet, all GFCI outlets are supposed to be readily accessible for testing or reset purposes. I'm confused.
Put in a GFCI breaker - always accessible. Easy to test and reset.

Marilyn Manson

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Nov 25, 2021, 5:59:49 PM11/25/21
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Hopefully there is nothing else on the circuit that can cause nuisance
trips or shouldn't be on a GFCI.

gfre...@aol.com

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Nov 25, 2021, 6:31:21 PM11/25/21
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A lot will depend on how it is wired. As often as not the dish washer
is on 2 sides of a <shared neutral> multiwire circuit with the other
half feeding the disposal. You can get two pole 120/240 GFCIs but they
are spendy. OTOH if you can fish a wire up to the wall behind the
counter top you could put a dead front GFCI there. (4 wire +g Romex or
smurf tube with THHN in it) Box fill might be an issue but since it is
under the sink and out of sight you could put a ring on it or use a
surface raceway (wiremold) box on it. That might actually make the
fishing easier.

Ed60062

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Nov 26, 2021, 6:13:19 PM11/26/21
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Thanks for the suggestions but she isn't about to do any of the above that would require an electrician. She is handy, but not that handy. The dishwasher is on a separate circuit from the disposal.
Additional info: apparently the outlet was not holding the plug securely and arcing melted the plug and outlet causing the dishwasher to stop running. Her choice is to install a new regular outlet or a GFCI. It sounds like the GFCI would be safer but it can't be tested or easily reset without pulling out the dishwasher.

Ed Pawlowski

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Nov 26, 2021, 6:19:16 PM11/26/21
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On 11/26/2021 6:13 PM, Ed60062 wrote:
> Thanks for the suggestions but she isn't about to do any of the above that would require an electrician. She is handy, but not that handy. The dishwasher is on a separate circuit from the disposal.
> Additional info: apparently the outlet was not holding the plug securely and arcing melted the plug and outlet causing the dishwasher to stop running. Her choice is to install a new regular outlet or a GFCI. It sounds like the GFCI would be safer but it can't be tested or easily reset without pulling out the dishwasher.
>

By now you have probably figured it out. If you want GFCI just change
the breaker and use a standard outlet. Pulling it out for a reset is
not so good.

OTOH, if it was low enough you can take the bottom panel and lay on the
floor with a stick to reset it.

gfre...@aol.com

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Nov 26, 2021, 6:42:22 PM11/26/21
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The GFCI breaker is the right thing to do if you are sure this is not
a multiwire circuit.
Otherwise
Make sure the grounding is good and just put a regular receptacle in
there.

Clare Snyder

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Nov 26, 2021, 9:24:26 PM11/26/21
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Up to her, but "I" would be putting in a spec grade 20 amp receptacle
- the best she can get - and install a GFCI breaker. You say the
disposal and the dishwasher are on separate circuits. But on the same
duplex outlet?? If so, a "split" or "edison circuit. If so, a GFCI
outlet is NOT possible. The only way to get gfci protection is a gfci
plug/cord assembly on the dishwasher or a 2 pole (240 volt) breaker in
the panel. Depending on the panel that can be either simple or
EXPENSIVE. Replacing the outlet requires removing the jumper link
between the 2 brass (dark) (live) screws on the outlet - one circuit
is red, the other black - with shared white(neutral) and safety ground
(bare or green)

If you can tell me what breaker panel she has I can give you a better
idea what is required to replace the breaker - generally no more
challenging than replacing the outlet (and often simpler - definitely
a lot more space to work!!!! - and a better working position (standing
up instead of head down, ass up, under the cupboard!!!)

Either way, the outlet HAS to be replaced - and if as described, only
ONE option for GFCI protection (other than to ignore it and leasve
as-is) that does not require modification of the dishwasher.

Ed60062

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Nov 29, 2021, 11:41:03 AM11/29/21
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After seeing how to replace a breaker I decided a standard outlet with a GFCI breaker is the way to go. The panel is a Square D "Homeline Load Center, cat # HOMC 12UC, Series S01, Type 1 Enclosure." The dishwasher is on its own 15 amp circuit. However, I'm concerned that there doesn't seem to be a main breaker. The punch-out panel in the box where the main would be is not punched out. I suspect the main is in the basement? This is a condo building of about 20 units. Shouldn't there be a main shutoff in each unit? Hopefully, these pics will come through:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rz4ruygpon3reb9/breakerbox2.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0ob89mg1afowzk2/breakerbox1.jpg?dl=0

Thanks for your help.


Clare Snyder

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Nov 29, 2021, 1:30:20 PM11/29/21
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In the USA the square D CFCI is only $48 and it is a 15 minute jib to
install (at the worst) and installation on a live panel is relatively
safe if you know ANYTHING about electricity. Up here in Canada they
are about twice as expensive.

gfre...@aol.com

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Nov 29, 2021, 2:47:37 PM11/29/21
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In a condo building your disconnect will be in a common area, usually
centrally located on the first floor. Just be sure you are turning off
the right one so you are not getting your neighbor's. Ask around,
someone knows where it is. In the US it is illegal to prevent you from
getting to that disconnect. The maintenance man will have the key if
it is locked. (it shouldn't be)
OTOH
A kind word and maybe a small gift could have him swapping that
breaker for you too ;-)

Marilyn Manson

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Nov 29, 2021, 5:50:55 PM11/29/21
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"Relatively safe"

Relative to what?

gfre...@aol.com

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Nov 29, 2021, 8:31:04 PM11/29/21
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Handling snakes? ;-)
In either case, if you don't know what you are doing you can get bit.

Marilyn Manson

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Nov 30, 2021, 11:05:09 AM11/30/21
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Or, more on topic, it's relatively safer than this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YmFHAFYwmY

Besides, a person can know *a lot* about "electricity" and still not be safe
inside a live panel.

gfre...@aol.com

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Nov 30, 2021, 12:20:52 PM11/30/21
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On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 08:05:06 -0800 (PST), Marilyn Manson
They did the visual inspection of the 230kv line behind my house with
a drone.

The way NFPA 70A is going, you will need arc flash PPE to work on
120/240v.

Ralph Mowery

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Nov 30, 2021, 12:40:54 PM11/30/21
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In article <d6ncqg95npa8db7b2...@4ax.com>,
gfre...@aol.com says...
>
> >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YmFHAFYwmY
> >
> >Besides, a person can know *a lot* about "electricity" and still not be safe
> >inside a live panel.
>
> They did the visual inspection of the 230kv line behind my house with
> a drone.
>
> The way NFPA 70A is going, you will need arc flash PPE to work on
> 120/240v.
>
>

The man in the suit is because at those voltages the power arcs off the
skin into the air to a small amout. The suit is made of some kind of
conductive material.

AT work we started the Arx/flash protection before I left. Had to wear
something like an overcoat and helment with a face shield and gloves for
some work on the 480p volt 3 phase units. Hard to read a moter in the
low lighting in some areas and thrugh the tinted face shield.

Funny how they rated things. We had a motor control center that was
way away from the main reducing station and it was too much for the
calculated arc/flash that the power had to be shut off at the reducing
station. As this was not practical, some fudge factor was applied to
it.

Ed60062

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Nov 30, 2021, 6:54:39 PM11/30/21
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Clare, you wrote "CFCI." Did you mean GFCI? At Home Depot I see listed GFCI, CAFCI, and AFCI. Are we correct in using a GFCI?

Clare Snyder

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Nov 30, 2021, 8:59:27 PM11/30/21
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On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 15:54:37 -0800 (PST), Ed60062
Yes, GFCI.
AFCI is arc fault.
CAFCI is combination arc faulr
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